Acura: TLX News
07-12-2013, 06:47 PM
#6441
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We have the ILX here, where people feel it sucks because it's under powered and does not have enough features. People have been asking why not give it the SH-AWD? Why not give it a proper 6AT? Why not give it Jewel-Eye or P-AWS, or whatever.
Now, assuming the TLX gets 90% of the features found in the RLX, we get people asking what's the point of the RLX then?
So the question is, should Acura make most features available on ALL of its models or not? Either way, we have unhappy people.
With the above said, the TLX is supposed to be a smaller vehicle than the RLX. This was not the case with the 4G TL and 2G RL.
07-12-2013, 07:36 PM
#6442
6G TLX-S
^^^^^
If Acura can build each model line with a different engine and drivetrain configuration, then they won't step on each other's toe, and won't fuck up each other's sales.
ILX : 2.5L-I5 (~225hp), available conventional AWD (just like the RDX).
TLX : 3.2L-V6 (~280hp), available SH-AWD.
RLX : 3.5L-V6 (~310hp), available hybrid-SW-AWD.
Only if Acura decides to use the exact same engine/drivetrain configuration on 2 different model lines, then the upper, more premium model line will always suffer.
This is the painful lesson learned from the 2G RL and 4G TL sedans having both sharing the exact same propulsion hardware, resulting that buyers found it hard to justify paying a hefty premium for the RL over the TL.
If Acura can build each model line with a different engine and drivetrain configuration, then they won't step on each other's toe, and won't fuck up each other's sales.
ILX : 2.5L-I5 (~225hp), available conventional AWD (just like the RDX).
TLX : 3.2L-V6 (~280hp), available SH-AWD.
RLX : 3.5L-V6 (~310hp), available hybrid-SW-AWD.
Only if Acura decides to use the exact same engine/drivetrain configuration on 2 different model lines, then the upper, more premium model line will always suffer.
This is the painful lesson learned from the 2G RL and 4G TL sedans having both sharing the exact same propulsion hardware, resulting that buyers found it hard to justify paying a hefty premium for the RL over the TL.
07-12-2013, 07:56 PM
#6443
07-12-2013, 08:05 PM
#6444
This is an perfect example where Acura is wrong 100% of the time.
We have the ILX here, where people feel it sucks because it's under powered and does not have enough features. People have been asking why not give it the SH-AWD? Why not give it a proper 6AT? Why not give it Jewel-Eye or P-AWS, or whatever.
Now, assuming the TLX gets 90% of the features found in the RLX, we get people asking what's the point of the RLX then?
So the question is, should Acura make most features available on ALL of its models or not? Either way, we have unhappy people.
With the above said, the TLX is supposed to be a smaller vehicle than the RLX. This was not the case with the 4G TL and 2G RL.
We have the ILX here, where people feel it sucks because it's under powered and does not have enough features. People have been asking why not give it the SH-AWD? Why not give it a proper 6AT? Why not give it Jewel-Eye or P-AWS, or whatever.
Now, assuming the TLX gets 90% of the features found in the RLX, we get people asking what's the point of the RLX then?
So the question is, should Acura make most features available on ALL of its models or not? Either way, we have unhappy people.
With the above said, the TLX is supposed to be a smaller vehicle than the RLX. This was not the case with the 4G TL and 2G RL.
People asking the point of the RLX isn't the same as wanting things across the board.
07-12-2013, 08:36 PM
#6445
Nor is the Car designed for large 19 inch noise reducing rims, Krell/ELS audio etc.
RLX and Accord touring has identical turning radius despite RLX having longer wheel base and larger wheel set.
07-12-2013, 08:59 PM
#6446
07-13-2013, 03:13 PM
#6447
Azine Jabroni
07-13-2013, 08:09 PM
#6448
Senior Moderator
07-15-2013, 03:31 PM
#6450
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^^^^^
If Acura can build each model line with a different engine and drivetrain configuration, then they won't step on each other's toe, and won't fuck up each other's sales.
ILX : 2.5L-I5 (~225hp), available conventional AWD (just like the RDX).
TLX : 3.2L-V6 (~280hp), available SH-AWD.
RLX : 3.5L-V6 (~310hp), available hybrid-SW-AWD.
Only if Acura decides to use the exact same engine/drivetrain configuration on 2 different model lines, then the upper, more premium model line will always suffer.
This is the painful lesson learned from the 2G RL and 4G TL sedans having both sharing the exact same propulsion hardware, resulting that buyers found it hard to justify paying a hefty premium for the RL over the TL.
If Acura can build each model line with a different engine and drivetrain configuration, then they won't step on each other's toe, and won't fuck up each other's sales.
ILX : 2.5L-I5 (~225hp), available conventional AWD (just like the RDX).
TLX : 3.2L-V6 (~280hp), available SH-AWD.
RLX : 3.5L-V6 (~310hp), available hybrid-SW-AWD.
Only if Acura decides to use the exact same engine/drivetrain configuration on 2 different model lines, then the upper, more premium model line will always suffer.
This is the painful lesson learned from the 2G RL and 4G TL sedans having both sharing the exact same propulsion hardware, resulting that buyers found it hard to justify paying a hefty premium for the RL over the TL.
This is what i mean when I say Acura will always be wrong.
I don't look at it that way. I don't think the ILX should have SH-AWD, P-AWS, or even Jewel eye. For the price, it should have the 2.4L 4-cylinder (at least) standard, HID headlights, LED taillights, faux leather stitching like the refreshed Civic's interior, though.
People asking the point of the RLX isn't the same as wanting things across the board.
People asking the point of the RLX isn't the same as wanting things across the board.
07-16-2013, 05:34 PM
#6451
Senior Moderator
In that case, we will have people complaining how come Acura only offers one powertrain option for each model.....they will refer to other brands and say those brands have multiple powertrain choices for each model. And those choices do overlap.
This is what i mean when I say Acura will always be wrong.
I see where you are coming from. However, the CLA has the CLA250 and the AMG model. The A3 has 2.0T and S3 trim. BMW 1 series has 125i and 135i. The common thing among these models is that they do have quite a few powertrain choices. Based on the above, there will be people complaining if the ILX doesn't have lots of different options such as AWD, Jewel Eye, etc.
This is what i mean when I say Acura will always be wrong.
I see where you are coming from. However, the CLA has the CLA250 and the AMG model. The A3 has 2.0T and S3 trim. BMW 1 series has 125i and 135i. The common thing among these models is that they do have quite a few powertrain choices. Based on the above, there will be people complaining if the ILX doesn't have lots of different options such as AWD, Jewel Eye, etc.
This is what screws with acura's sales, the lack of choice! It's not a matter of stepping on their own model's toes, but being able to compete properly. That's why I hope this 5G TL has the option for a 3.2- 3.5L V6 with Earth Dreams and maybe the hybrid system to boost power by 70+ HP/TQ.
Last edited by csmeance; 07-16-2013 at 05:38 PM.
07-16-2013, 06:19 PM
#6452
Team Owner
In that case, we will have people complaining how come Acura only offers one powertrain option for each model.....they will refer to other brands and say those brands have multiple powertrain choices for each model. And those choices do overlap.
This is what i mean when I say Acura will always be wrong.
I see where you are coming from. However, the CLA has the CLA250 and the AMG model. The A3 has 2.0T and S3 trim. BMW 1 series has 125i and 135i. The common thing among these models is that they do have quite a few powertrain choices. Based on the above, there will be people complaining if the ILX doesn't have lots of different options such as AWD, Jewel Eye, etc.
This is what i mean when I say Acura will always be wrong.
I see where you are coming from. However, the CLA has the CLA250 and the AMG model. The A3 has 2.0T and S3 trim. BMW 1 series has 125i and 135i. The common thing among these models is that they do have quite a few powertrain choices. Based on the above, there will be people complaining if the ILX doesn't have lots of different options such as AWD, Jewel Eye, etc.
Only if Acura would listen to me....
First i would drop ILX and keep TSX but that is not realistic, so:
ILX 2.4L 200 hp FWD give it everything except LED headlights and LED tails
ILX Type S 3.5L 280 HP AWD give it everything except LED headlights with sportier bumper/wheels
TLX 3.5 280 HP bigger FWD give it everything except for LED headlight
TLX Type S 3.7L 330 HP AWD with LED headlight and sportier bumper/wheels
RLX has no hope since Acura doesn't have FI or V8
RLX 3.7L 330hp AWD
RLX Type S 400hp 3.7L Hybrid AWD
MDX can follow TLX
I still don't like the line up but it is better than whatever crap they are offering right now.
It would be so much easier if Honda/Acura has a good turbo 4. It fits perfectly for ILX Type S and entry level TLX.
You will see shit load of young people buying the turbo 4 ILX Type S to modify like the good old days...
Last edited by oonowindoo; 07-16-2013 at 06:28 PM.
07-16-2013, 09:24 PM
#6453
Senior Moderator
Retrofitting the MDX powertrain (3.5L V6 coupled w/ SHAWD) to the ILX is highly impractical. I cant even begin to imagine how bad that would oversteer under normal driving conditions, let alone spirited driving.
Now, integrating the Accord ED motor into the ILX makes more sense.....what it loses in peak hp, it'll more than gain in terms of torque.
Now, integrating the Accord ED motor into the ILX makes more sense.....what it loses in peak hp, it'll more than gain in terms of torque.
07-17-2013, 05:58 PM
#6454
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The point of having different powertrains is to fit different needs. For example I'm a car buyer who wants a fast car that's small. I'd def. take an ILX with a 3.5 V6 over the 4cyl. But then I change my mind and I want something large, but don't care about power. An RLX with the 3.7L V6 is plenty fast, but if I wanted a faster car there should be an option for it. For example I can get nightvision, pandora, etc in ANY BMW these days wether it's a 760 or a 128i. The difference b/w models is simply looks, coachwork and the price. If Acura adopted the mentality of having more powertrains with a basic package, luxury (heated/cooled seats, nav, etc) and then the Advance with CMBS/ACC/Blind Spot Detection, etc, etc.
This is what screws with acura's sales, the lack of choice! It's not a matter of stepping on their own model's toes, but being able to compete properly. That's why I hope this 5G TL has the option for a 3.2- 3.5L V6 with Earth Dreams and maybe the hybrid system to boost power by 70+ HP/TQ.
This is what screws with acura's sales, the lack of choice! It's not a matter of stepping on their own model's toes, but being able to compete properly. That's why I hope this 5G TL has the option for a 3.2- 3.5L V6 with Earth Dreams and maybe the hybrid system to boost power by 70+ HP/TQ.
You cannot compare Acura with the big 3 because they can sell shit load of cars regardless the design/engine/interior. like i said previously, if you put BMW badge on the RLX, the sales # will triple.
Only if Acura would listen to me....
First i would drop ILX and keep TSX but that is not realistic, so:
ILX 2.4L 200 hp FWD give it everything except LED headlights and LED tails
ILX Type S 3.5L 280 HP AWD give it everything except LED headlights with sportier bumper/wheels
TLX 3.5 280 HP bigger FWD give it everything except for LED headlight
TLX Type S 3.7L 330 HP AWD with LED headlight and sportier bumper/wheels
RLX has no hope since Acura doesn't have FI or V8
RLX 3.7L 330hp AWD
RLX Type S 400hp 3.7L Hybrid AWD
MDX can follow TLX
I still don't like the line up but it is better than whatever crap they are offering right now.
It would be so much easier if Honda/Acura has a good turbo 4. It fits perfectly for ILX Type S and entry level TLX.
You will see shit load of young people buying the turbo 4 ILX Type S to modify like the good old days...
Only if Acura would listen to me....
First i would drop ILX and keep TSX but that is not realistic, so:
ILX 2.4L 200 hp FWD give it everything except LED headlights and LED tails
ILX Type S 3.5L 280 HP AWD give it everything except LED headlights with sportier bumper/wheels
TLX 3.5 280 HP bigger FWD give it everything except for LED headlight
TLX Type S 3.7L 330 HP AWD with LED headlight and sportier bumper/wheels
RLX has no hope since Acura doesn't have FI or V8
RLX 3.7L 330hp AWD
RLX Type S 400hp 3.7L Hybrid AWD
MDX can follow TLX
I still don't like the line up but it is better than whatever crap they are offering right now.
It would be so much easier if Honda/Acura has a good turbo 4. It fits perfectly for ILX Type S and entry level TLX.
You will see shit load of young people buying the turbo 4 ILX Type S to modify like the good old days...
Retrofitting the MDX powertrain (3.5L V6 coupled w/ SHAWD) to the ILX is highly impractical. I cant even begin to imagine how bad that would oversteer under normal driving conditions, let alone spirited driving.
Now, integrating the Accord ED motor into the ILX makes more sense.....what it loses in peak hp, it'll more than gain in terms of torque.
Now, integrating the Accord ED motor into the ILX makes more sense.....what it loses in peak hp, it'll more than gain in terms of torque.
That Accord ED motor should be the base engine in the ILX, somewhere at 200hp/185lbft of torque. The performance trim should offer something north of 220hp IMO.
By the way, in China, the Acura RDX has a J30 that is good for 255hp/220lbft of torque. It's a pretty rev-happy engine. I'd imagine that engine would work well in the ILX assuming it fits.
07-18-2013, 02:02 PM
#6455
Midnight Marauder
Can it really? I thought it promoted oversteer by driving the outside wheel more into turns, how would it get rid of oversteer? Not arguing just curious as this is the first time I've heard of this capability on the internet.
07-18-2013, 05:02 PM
#6456
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I can't find it any more, but I've seen a Best Motoring video where the test driver was trying very hard to drift the RL, the car simply wouldn't understeer or oversteer.
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jwong77 (07-22-2013)
07-18-2013, 09:13 PM
#6457
SH-AWD promotes oversteer by driving the outside wheel more. Depending on whether you are turning left or right, it could be the left wheel getting more torque, or the right wheel getting more. Since inherently, most cars tend to understeer. The computer just uses data from all sensors to determine how bad the understeer is (or will be), and compensates by sending more power to the outside wheel. Since it's all about the programming, it's really not that difficult for the system to detect oversteer, and apply extra power to the INSIDE wheel to reduce oversteer. I suspect this doesn't get mentioned much since most FWD cars would simply understeer in most cases without SH-AWD.
I can't find it any more, but I've seen a Best Motoring video where the test driver was trying very hard to drift the RL, the car simply wouldn't understeer or oversteer.
I can't find it any more, but I've seen a Best Motoring video where the test driver was trying very hard to drift the RL, the car simply wouldn't understeer or oversteer.
07-19-2013, 02:50 PM
#6458
Senior Moderator
SH-AWD promotes oversteer by driving the outside wheel more. Depending on whether you are turning left or right, it could be the left wheel getting more torque, or the right wheel getting more. Since inherently, most cars tend to understeer. The computer just uses data from all sensors to determine how bad the understeer is (or will be), and compensates by sending more power to the outside wheel. Since it's all about the programming, it's really not that difficult for the system to detect oversteer, and apply extra power to the INSIDE wheel to reduce oversteer. I suspect this doesn't get mentioned much since most FWD cars would simply understeer in most cases without SH-AWD.
I can't find it any more, but I've seen a Best Motoring video where the test driver was trying very hard to drift the RL, the car simply wouldn't understeer or oversteer.
I can't find it any more, but I've seen a Best Motoring video where the test driver was trying very hard to drift the RL, the car simply wouldn't understeer or oversteer.
+1 with both posts really. I also think diversity and choices are important. Offering more features even in the base ILX allows that model to be not compared to the Civic.
One of the benefits that we all know SH-AWD has is the elimination of understeer. But this system is also capable of getting rid of oversteer.
That Accord ED motor should be the base engine in the ILX, somewhere at 200hp/185lbft of torque. The performance trim should offer something north of 220hp IMO.
By the way, in China, the Acura RDX has a J30 that is good for 255hp/220lbft of torque. It's a pretty rev-happy engine. I'd imagine that engine would work well in the ILX assuming it fits.
One of the benefits that we all know SH-AWD has is the elimination of understeer. But this system is also capable of getting rid of oversteer.
That Accord ED motor should be the base engine in the ILX, somewhere at 200hp/185lbft of torque. The performance trim should offer something north of 220hp IMO.
By the way, in China, the Acura RDX has a J30 that is good for 255hp/220lbft of torque. It's a pretty rev-happy engine. I'd imagine that engine would work well in the ILX assuming it fits.
In any case, the SH-AWD system is old news. BMW's AWD (X-drive) can vector torque with deceleration and acceleration. Acura's only does it in acceleration. IMO it's like DOHC vs SOHC, it's a moot point to argue it with the heads at honda but to us DOHC makes more sense and should have been introduced earlier. Same goes with SH-AWD, acura should have keep on investing in it to make it a LOT better and to drive the bar further rather than mildly match the bar that's already been set.
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jwong77 (07-22-2013)
07-19-2013, 07:35 PM
#6459
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The SH-AWD system is VERY different across all the model lines. The RL has the only "true" SH-AWD system as far as I know where it overdrives the outer wheel to help keep the car going in the intended direction. I believe the systems used on the MDX, RDX and TL are close to each other but different from what the RL got. I believe that these newer systems overdrive the rear of the car only by around 2% vs the Original RL system that could deliver up to 7% if memory serves me right.
In any case, the SH-AWD system is old news. BMW's AWD (X-drive) can vector torque with deceleration and acceleration. Acura's only does it in acceleration. IMO it's like DOHC vs SOHC, it's a moot point to argue it with the heads at honda but to us DOHC makes more sense and should have been introduced earlier. Same goes with SH-AWD, acura should have keep on investing in it to make it a LOT better and to drive the bar further rather than mildly match the bar that's already been set.
In any case, the SH-AWD system is old news. BMW's AWD (X-drive) can vector torque with deceleration and acceleration. Acura's only does it in acceleration. IMO it's like DOHC vs SOHC, it's a moot point to argue it with the heads at honda but to us DOHC makes more sense and should have been introduced earlier. Same goes with SH-AWD, acura should have keep on investing in it to make it a LOT better and to drive the bar further rather than mildly match the bar that's already been set.
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jwong77 (07-22-2013)
07-21-2013, 09:35 PM
#6460
Senior Moderator
Yes that's right, outside rear wheel.
I think the latest iteration of SH-AWD is the eSH-AWD. It can vector torque with deceleration and acceleration. It will increase power output. It will improve fuel economy. It's said to be no heavier than the mechanical SH-AWD system.
I think the latest iteration of SH-AWD is the eSH-AWD. It can vector torque with deceleration and acceleration. It will increase power output. It will improve fuel economy. It's said to be no heavier than the mechanical SH-AWD system.
07-22-2013, 12:03 PM
#6461
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That's kinda pricey to maintain, I didn't know about that.
As for maintenance on eSH-AWD, it's basically a few motors and some electronics and sensors....at least they shouldn't need additional fluid changes I'd think!
As for maintenance on eSH-AWD, it's basically a few motors and some electronics and sensors....at least they shouldn't need additional fluid changes I'd think!
07-25-2013, 06:13 PM
#6463
Doubt it. The Concept C is specially designed for the Chinese market.
From https://acurazine.com/forums/automotive-news-6/honda-concept-c-sedan-news-855049/
From https://acurazine.com/forums/automotive-news-6/honda-concept-c-sedan-news-855049/
Concept C is a concept model for a middle-class sedan Honda is developing specially for the Chinese market. The "C" represents "Cool," "Challenge," and "China." The Concept C features a stately, distinctive and sporty design that was inspired by the image of a dragon. The product planning for this model was led by Honda's Chinese associates and the development was done through cooperation between development teams in China and Japan. Honda is planning to introduce a mass-production model based on this Concept C next year through Guangqi Honda Automobile Co., Ltd.
07-25-2013, 06:26 PM
#6464
The sizzle in the Steak
I hope it does not look like that Concept C 
07-25-2013, 08:34 PM
#6465
אני עומד עם ישראל
How pot hole proof with this new TL(X) be?
07-25-2013, 09:53 PM
#6467
Senior Moderator
09-10-2013, 09:31 PM
#6468
▒JDM ¥ KING▒
I hope to see this in TLX.
"(2015 EuroCivic Type R) will make 'at least' 276 hp from 2.0L turbo"
"(2015 EuroCivic Type R) will make 'at least' 276 hp from 2.0L turbo"
12-19-2013, 05:47 AM
#6469
Safety Car
Detroit
12/19/2013 - TORRANCE, CA.
Newly-named TLX will feature more dynamic and sporty proportions, 2 new advanced powertrains and a host of signature Acura technologies
TSX to be discontinued as Acura creates clear hierarchy for luxury sedan lineup
Acura today announced that the 2015 Acura TLX Prototype performance luxury sedan will debut at the 2014 North American International Auto Show in Detroit in January. The TLX will mark the debut of a new name for Acura's mid-size modern luxury sedan entry, replacing the outgoing TL model. The all-new model will feature more emotional styling with tidier, sports sedan proportions wrapped around two all-new advanced powertrains that provide even more athletic performance, along with a host of signature Acura technologies. The 2015 TLX Prototype is designed to appeal to current and next-generation luxury sports sedan buyers including existing TL and TSX customers.TSX to be discontinued as Acura creates clear hierarchy for luxury sedan lineup
In conjunction with the launch of the production TLX in the 2nd half of next year, Acura will discontinue sales of the TSX model in 2014, as it moves to clarify its sedan lineup with a clear hierarchy of 3 distinct models – the entry luxury ILX, mid-size TLX sports sedan, and flagship RLX performance sedan.
"This all-new Acura TLX is the perfect blend of style and muscle with its elegant, well-proportioned exterior that cloaks the true sport sedan chassis and powertrain beneath," said Mike Accavitti, senior vice president, American Honda Motor, Co., Inc. "The sporty characteristics that customers found appealing in the TSX are even more pronounced in this aggressive new TLX."
The all-new Acura TLX will offer luxury buyers a wider range of choices with 2 all-new, high-performance and highly fuel-efficient direct-injected engines, each mated to an all-new advanced transmission, along with available 2-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive configurations. The TLX will also feature dynamic and emotional exterior styling wrapped around a mid-size luxury sports-sedan package that maintains the roomy cabin space of the current TL.
The TLX Prototype was designed in Acura's Los Angeles Design Studio and the production model is being developed by Acura engineers at the company's Ohio R&D center. It will be produced at the Marysville, Ohio auto plant1, home to the current Acura TL.
Speaking at the Acura press conference at the 2014 North American International Auto Show in Detroit on Jan. 14, 2014 will be Mike Accavitti, senior vice president, American Honda Motor, Co., Inc.
About Acura
Acura offers a full line of technologically advanced performance luxury vehicles through a network of 275 dealers within the United States. The Acura lineup features 6 distinctive models including the RLX luxury flagship sedan, the TL performance luxury sedan, the TSX Sport Wagon and sedan, the ILX compact luxury sedan, the RDX luxury crossover SUV, and the all-new MDX luxury sport utility vehicle.
For More Information
Consumer information about Acura is available at acura.com. To join the Acura community on Facebook, visit facebook.com/Acura. Additional media information including detailed features, pricing and high-resolution photography of the Acura model line is available at acuranews.com.
Acura offers a full line of technologically advanced performance luxury vehicles through a network of 275 dealers within the United States. The Acura lineup features 6 distinctive models including the RLX luxury flagship sedan, the TL performance luxury sedan, the TSX Sport Wagon and sedan, the ILX compact luxury sedan, the RDX luxury crossover SUV, and the all-new MDX luxury sport utility vehicle.
For More Information
Consumer information about Acura is available at acura.com. To join the Acura community on Facebook, visit facebook.com/Acura. Additional media information including detailed features, pricing and high-resolution photography of the Acura model line is available at acuranews.com.
12-19-2013, 07:39 AM
#6470
I spend 2 much time here
looking forward to seeing this! could finally be the Acura i have been looking for, something similiar in size/styling to TSX with powertrain and SH-AWD of TL.
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biker (12-19-2013)
12-19-2013, 08:07 AM
#6471
Senior Moderator
Forgive me for not holding my breath, but im not holding out much hope. I hope im proved wrong, but if the last few cars from them are any indication 
12-19-2013, 09:12 AM
#6473
The all-new Acura TLX will offer luxury buyers a wider range of choices with 2 all-new, high-performance and highly fuel-efficient direct-injected engines, each mated to an all-new advanced transmission, along with available 2-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive configurations
12-19-2013, 10:47 AM
#6476
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They're getting rid of the TSX?? Dafuq! I hate the ILX
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VR1 (12-19-2013)
12-19-2013, 10:48 AM
#6477
Race Director
12-19-2013, 10:50 AM
#6478
Race Director
12-19-2013, 10:51 AM
#6479
Moderator
12-19-2013, 11:28 AM
#6480
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I don't care about Acura anymore so don't play attentions
Don't even care about that twin turbo NSX
But I think the ILX is ugly as balls
Don't even care about that twin turbo NSX
But I think the ILX is ugly as balls
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charliemike (12-20-2013)