Originally Posted by iforyou

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Here is a fact, the G25 with its 2.5L V6 that makes 218hp is rated at 20/29mpg. That's the same as the 280hp TL.

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Actually, if you are only talking about NOW, then the J35 in the TSX and TL is lagging by 26hp (280hp vs 306hp). But the pre-mmc RL was making 290hp or 300hp under the old standards.

I don't agree with your "brick wall" argument. I can also say, Infiniti has hit a techno brick wall of making its VQ37 smooth. It's lagging behind the J series in terms of NVH.

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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS

As for Honda being the world's best engine builder, here are Honda's achievements related only to engine building :

- expertize in building engines for lawn mowers, power generators, marine outboards, ATV's, automobiles, motorbikes, and passenger jet plane.

- engine technology innovations such as CVCC, aluminum cylinder block and head, PGM-FI, VTEC, i-VTEC, moly-coated cylinders, single-cam-operated-on-4-valves, dual-runner intake, oval piston (motorbikes), etc.

- first auto maker to commercialize using hybrid tech (Insight) and hydrogen fuel cell tech (FCX).

- has been and still is class leading in output hp for it's 4-cylinder naturally-aspirated 4-cycle piston production auto engines :

1998, 1.8L, 195hp, Integra Type-R
2005, 2.0L, 210hp, RSX Type-R
(2011, 2.0L, 197hp, Civic SI)
2009, 2.4L, 201hp, TSX (just beat the Hyundai 2.4L GDI by 1hp)

Only the J-series V6 family is falling short to become class leader in output hp.

- won races and constructor championship titles in F1, CART/Indy, Le Mans, WCCA-WC, BTCC, MotoGP, SuperBike, and numerous other classes of touring sedan cups and motorbike cups all over the world.


Never has any single auto maker on earth has packed so much expertize in engine building, so diversify in engine applications, so innovative in engine technology, so dominant in output hp for it's I4 production engines, as well as participating in and winning so many different variety of motorsport races.

When packed with so much credential behind it's back, if Honda is not the best engine builder in the world, no auto maker is.

Originally Posted by Edward'TLS

There is a reason why I only compare between engine output alone and not between cars. It's because even with the same engine, when applied in different cars with different curb weights and different tranny technology (such as gear ratios and the total number of forward gears), will give vastly different performance (especially on acceleration and on fuel economy).

As a result, we can never find out how fuel economic or not the engine alone is, when we start comparing between cars, because curb weights and tranny technology will greatly skew the final results.

Every auto maker has it's own "brick wall" in engine tuning. You're correct. Nissan has hit the "brick wall" in NVH for it's VQ much sooner than Honda. Nissan must look for a breakthrough in NVH dampening technology before it can even dream of matching Honda J-series's smoothness. If I'm comparing NVH performance between Honda and the best. Honda is the king, hands down. But this time, I intend to compare engine output performance with which the J-series unfortunately is not the king this time round.

I have no intention to offend any hardcore Honda/Acura supporters, who can't stand anyone picking on their perfect Honda/Acura products, with my emphasize on the single weak area (output hp) for the aging Honda J-series.

My intention is to encourage Honda to speed up the development of the new V6 series, because the current J-series is a bit short on output hp when compared with the industry's bests.

However, I still think Honda should build a variation of the J-series, which put more emphasize on output hp tuning instead of on NVH. Crank out lots of hp, and throw NVH out the windows.

Then apply this class-leading-in-hp motor on the TSX Type-R and/or the TL Type-R. As for buyers of these types of high performance R's, performance is their top priority, NVH from the engine is the least of their concerns when the car's Brembo brakes are already squealing like crazy and the rock-hard suspension is already shaking the trim piece loses. Type-R like these from Acura will sure improve the model image.

As a sidenote, high performance does come with a cost in NVH. Many 3G TL-S owners have been constantly complaining about the squealing sound that comes standard with their high performance Brembo brakes. Some 4G SH-AWD TL owners have complained about how harsh their suspension is.

Therefore, don't worry about NVH, just create an ultimate-tuned J-series motor with lots and lots of output hp, to be installed in dedicated high performance Type-R racing machines, in order to rival with even the Audi S/RS, the BMW M, and the MB AMG.

I'll buy one for sure.

Originally Posted by Edward'TLS

Agree, I had a run in with this guy some time back, just because I bought an A6 instead of the RL. Back then, I was simply posting my real-life experience while shopping and cross-shopping for those cars. But this guy started coming on me because I didn't pick the ACURA RL, and questioned why I was still on Acurazine without knowing how much repair helps and suspension tuning experience I had contributed to the 2G sub-forum since year 2000.

It is always a complicated process shopping for cars, with all those choices out there and especially with $50K on the line. It could only experienced by someone who was willing to spend $50K, and had spent $50K on a car in real life, not in dreams.

I don't care if he will buy such car(s) now or in the future. If he has/will, I'll congratulate him. But with someone who wasn't in the stage of buying one, and had absolutely no idea of what buying a $50K car was like, started picking on my real-life shopping experience was then quite a hilarious scene.

Originally Posted by Edward'TLS

Because I want to hit home my points, rather than dancing around starting comparing between cars while I'm intended to compare between engine technology.

Of course, you've nothing to respond to, because I was stating the facts. How could anyone argue with the FACTS. But if you have to consider facts as garbage, then I can't help you.

Competitors (Fact) :

2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, G37 sedan, 328hp <-----
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp

Acura (Fact) :

2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, RL, 300hp <-----
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp

My points are purely about engine technology between Honda and it's competitors :

- Fact : Honda is regarded as the world's best engine builder, not BMW, MB, Audi, Caddillac, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai.

- Fact : Honda is notoriously famous for generating more from less, i.e., make big hp with small engine displacement.

- Fact : Both the J-series 3.5L and 3.7L have been lagging behind in output hp when compared with the industry's bests for many years. The 3.5L since 2005, the the 3.7L since 2008.

- Fact : Every auto maker has a technology brick wall in engine tuning. Every time there's a new technology breakthrough (such as i-Vtec, DI, VANOS), more hp can be squeezed out, and the brick wall is being pushed further out.

- Fact : At this very moment, the J-series's best 3.5L is lagging behind the Toyota's best by 20hp and behind the Infiniti's best by 12hp. In other words, Honda hits the 3.5L techno brick wall 20hp earlier than Toyota's brick wall, and 12hp earlier than Infiniti's brick wall.

- Fact : At this very moment, the J-series's best 3.7L is lagging behind the Infiniti's best by 43hp. In other words, Honda hits the 3.7L techno brick wall 43hp earlier than Infiniti's brick wall.

- Fact : Rather than to work on the J-series 3.5L to tune out ~300hp like the industry's best, Honda has upped the displacement to 3.7L in order to match the industry's bests' 3.5L output achieved back in 2005.

- Fact : Lot's of credit must be given to Honda having have to hang on to the 15+ years old J-series engine desgin.

- Fact : It is obvious that the aging J-series cannot rival the modern engines from Toyota and Infiniti, but it still doesn't change the fact that the J-series is lagging behind in output hp against the industry's bests.

- Fact : Honda is working furiously on the next generation of V6 engines.


How can anyone argue with FACTS !?


- Comment : If the J-series is still tunable for more hp, why the need for new V6's ? For reputation, definitely Yes. The new V6's will be highly tunable for hp, unlike the aging J-series which is no more tunable to match the industry's bests. Honda wants to regain the lead as or at least on par with the industry's best, with a >300hp 3L/3.5L and a >330hp 3.2L/3.7L which cannot be achieved with the current J-series.

- Comment : Look for the output hp for the new V6's. If a couple years after their debut, the new 3.5L-V6 still remains at 286hp and the new 3.7L still at 305hp, then I concede. Otherwise, this is concrete evident that the J-series (being 15+ years old) is at the dying leg of hp development, and that no more significant hp can be squeeze out while still maintain reasonable fuel economy.

- Comment : The new V6 family is for Honda to continue the quest for more powerful engines, and to fulfill the doctrine of generating more from less, as well as big hp with good fuel economy.

- Comment : I suspect that the new V6 family will embrace i-Vtec and likely the Honda version of DI, and will eventually generate 260-280hp for 2.8L, 280-300hp for 3L; and perhap 330-350hp for 3.5L, and 350-380hp for 3.7L, especially towards the end of their development cycle at which they will be pushed to the limits.


Now my comments not concerning with engine technology :

Application wise, the overal Acura packages are good, but could use another 20-30hp more for the top-of-the-line trims. That would have been perfect. Any frugal buyers can still pick the base models if fuel economy is at the top of their agenda.

Originally Posted by csmeance

'

Honda needs to go back to it's root and create an S division or R division that goes GUNG-HO in respect to performance. Perfect example, the NSX-R.
The engineers went with a mesh shifter boot to save 11 grams!
Dry carbon fiber body parts to save weigh
Revised aerodynamics on MANY parts to reduce the CD by .02

But back to what you were saying, a Turbo TL-S isn't just going to be 3-4K off the back. If anything it's going to cost honda a WHOLE ton of money to fab up a system, engineer it and work out the kinks, test it for 500,000 miles to ensure that it sticks with honda quality. Engineering stuff like this isn't done in a few months, it takes a while to perfect and get right. Something like that in a consumer car would be more around the difference b/w a 335 and a 328 (41,100 vs. 33,650).

Also by the way, I doubt it'd be a 150HP increase for a consumer car, more along the lines of 100 and gobs of torque would be a better idea, so around 380ish HP is what I'd be.

Would I spend 50K on a new 380ish HP TL, maybe. A car isn't just about it's motor, its a culmination of things. The current interior on the TL really bothers me versus the design of the RL, MDX and TL that I've had over the years. The incorporation of all that plastic and styling idea doesn't still well with me. The ZDX is a step forward with a leather dash and ceramics, but the design is still pretty awkward.

If anything we would see MAYBE something like this on a 2014 TL but I highly doubt it since all auto makers are going to go in a "greener" direction with electric motors and all that jazz.



No offense to current owners, but I think that's (49K) a tad bit overpriced for a SH-AWD TL. Something along the lower 40's is a better idea OTD.

Originally Posted by SSFTSX

If Acura can afford Turbo RDX it can surely afford turbo V6. as various version of the same engine can be used in MDX/Pilot/TSX/RL etc. like Audi 3.0T is now in Q7/A6/S4 and soon Q5/A8 etc.
Honda can even afford high performance diesel Euro Accord Type S and that engine is not used in any other vehicle. and it is turbo. so horsepower variations with turbo is not a big expense.
with RDX it is straight 32% increase from 2006 CRV 166bhp to 240bhp. same 32% increase will bring 406bhp from 305bhp. RDX has 260 ft-lb torque from 2.3l based on 2006 technology.

Originally Posted by csmeance

I'm sure acura can afford it but a bit of that cost is going to go on to the consumer is what I'm trying to say. It's not going to be 3-4K, but more like 5-7K. As far as the motor being used across the brand, this is very true however the motor will probably be tried out either in the new RL or MDX that is to debut in 2012.

As far as the diesel goes, I don't understand why Honda doesn't bring it to the states. BMW and MB have their Diesel models here and they are pretty good! I had a 335d loaner and it got 40MPG! A 4 cyl disel will probably have 50 while having fun!

Originally Posted by VTEC Racer

How dare you, Edward. Shall I dig up the threads of the past so that you may see how ignorant you look/ed? I have NEVER, EVER, had a debate with someone because they bought X car over an Acura. It was YOU that came here to tell everyone else why you bought your 255hp Audi A6 over the RL and how much better your A6 was over the RL. It was you that was spewing about how much more luxurious your A6 was over the RL. Never mind the fact that you bought the bare-bones, base A6. An RCA VHS player has more technology than your model A6. I never once questioned why you bought an A6. What I did do was rebuttal your outrageous claims of your base model A6 being more luxurious than the RL, more advanced, and better performing. Would you like me to link the thread or am I starting to refresh your memory?

You don't know anything about me. You don't know what cars I own, what I do for a living, or what my socioeconomic background is. I'll give you one hint though, it doesn't include shopping for base-model A6's. Don't come in here and act like you are so much more experienced and cultured because you bought a $45k Audi.

To also claim that I am not in the stage of buying a $50k car is ludicrous. Again, how do you know me? You don't know anything about me so stop talking like you do.

Next time you want to make it personal, grow some balls and use my name. Don't just try and beat around the bush.

Originally Posted by dom

Lets get this back to TL talk, shall we.

Originally Posted by JS + MS3

omg wtf is going on in here

Originally Posted by Speed_Racer

Anyone know if these are alternate rims for the '12 SH-AWD models? I think they are the MDX sport rims.

Originally Posted by Mizouse

are the '12s at the dealers already?

Originally Posted by Speed_Racer

Anyone know if these are alternate rims for the '12 SH-AWD models? I think they are the MDX sport rims.

Originally Posted by jwong77

^ That car looks like it can't turn without ripping off its front fender

Originally Posted by Colin

No, the first batch of FWD cars is scheduled for production later this month and early March. No AWD cars will be built in this allocation, these will be built in a later production run.

Originally Posted by zac

Chopped----- Dropped. Wheels. Ronjon Kit front and sides. Tint. Body color grill thing.

Originally Posted by iforyou

that looks awesome.

Originally Posted by myron

that chop looks good, or it would if the wheels were a little realistic size. Not 24"