mrdeeno

I agree with you about what most 40 year old buyers want and need, but looking at this alone is why the RL failed.

A $35k car already offers "a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass" and a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory." Acura can't try to sell a $50k car by focusing on what most buyers want, when most buyers can get that in a $35-40k car.

Sure, they offer a lot of stuff that "justifies" the $50k price tag in their minds. But those things don't justify it in most buyers minds. If you think most buyers of $50k cars don't care about the "kick" of a V8 or 19" rims or whatever, then you must agree that they care EVEN LESS about:

- a carbon-fiber reinforced driveshaft
- SH-AWD can overdrive an outside rear wheel
- that the RL is made in Japan
- it has a hand sanded primer coat

These things are what makes the RL a $50k car and not a $35k car, and the problem is most people care about this stuff even less than 19" rims or the "kick" of a V8 (or knowing that it at least offers the kick of a V8).

An analogy...let's say a guy is buying a $300k house. he can buy the moderately sized house in a $200k neighborhood, but the reason the house is $300k is that it was framed from magic wood. While a normal house with normal wood and standard design can withstand winds up to 150mph, this magic wood will keep this house standing in 200mph winds!

Or he can buy a bigger house in a $300k neighborhood that's made from normal wood and designed to stand in 200mph winds. Most would buy the bigger house.

SpicyMikey

Yes I do agree with everything you said. I just always get twitchy fingers and start typing when people start overemphasing one shortcoming over another as the reason for the RL's failure. For some it often seems to be the lack of big V8 and RWD that is the death nail for the RL. For others it's the styling. For others still it's the price point that's killing it, or the the brand image, or product placement in the lineup. I personally think its mostly the last two but will agree that also is not the only reason.

How about it's all of those things? An unfortunate witchy brew combination that just created the perfect storm to make this car a loser from a sales perspective. That last statement needs to be highlighted because I'm not saying the RL is a bad car. if you own one and it addresses your priorities then you probably like it very much and are happy. It's not as if it's a 73 Ford Pinto exploding on rear impact . It's just the wrong car at the wrong time in the wrong place. A perfect storm that happens now and then. Kind of like the Cadillac Cimarron. A terrible sales flop that hurt the Cadillac brand image which took years to shake. A failure that far exceeded the actual car's shortcomings. It was more about being the wrong car at the wrong time for the Cadillac lineup.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

The average consumer doesn't give it a 0-XX run on the test driver. They're more likely to punch it while merging onto a highway or out of a corner around town.

And even so, this average consumer probably isn't terribly concerned with that last bit of power, otherwise cars like the E350 wouldn't sell well at all.

We all are aware of all of that, you know. LOL

mrdeeno

Except for the styling, I think all the other things are related, and solving some problems would inherently solve the others.

Take brand image for example. Brands with a "premium" brand image use that image to convey certain traits to their products. Lexus's luxury and service, BMW's performance heritage, MB's quality, etc. Brands that don't yet have a premium image don't have that to depend on, so they need their products to convey the premium image that they want until its accepted. What better way to get your products to convey a certain image than to imitate those that already have that image? In other words, you want to develop an image that you're a legitimate luxury player? Offer products that are legitimate alternatives to the the current luxury players. If they offer V8 engines, you offer V8 engines. If they offer RWD, you offer RWD. If they offer a bunch of options packages, you offer a bunch of options packages. That's where I feel that V8 and RWD come in and why I don't place independent importance on image, because my opinoin is that lack of image can be overcome and it's not a secret formula...just copy what the strongest competition does. Lexus did it and it worked, Infiniti is doing it and its working, Hyudani is doing it and it's working, and Acura is NOT doing it and therefore it's NOT working.

As for price point and product placement, those things are dependent on each other. Honda chose to price the car in the midsize luxury segment and instead of adding things that the competition does to justify the price and that's generally accepted as required in the segment, they added stuff that's not as important in that segment. Is the 5 series successful because it has a carbon fiber reinforced driveshaft or SH-AWD, or hand sanded primer coat?

I agree, it is a combination of all those things, but all those things are inherently related. My opinion is that offering a V8 and RWD will kill at least 2 birds with one stone...it will make it easier to 1. improve image and 2. product placement will be moot because it'll fit right in with the midsize luxury segment, rather than be confused as being just a more expensive TL, and that's why I stress the importance of V8 and RWD...it helps to solve many of the other problems (except styling...Acura's on its own with that one).

SpicyMikey

I can't really argue with what you say other than to caution against emphasing one of the many flaws too much. In other words, if Acura had come out with a v8 engine option at the MMC, I have a real hard time imagining that would have solved this cars problems.

As far as styling, interesting you mention that one. It's a drum that gets beat a lot. To me that's one of the last important issues causing sales problems. Styling is very subjective. It's all over the place. There are lots of cars I think are ugly that are quite successful. As long as it's not ridiculous, like the TL front nose is dangerously approaching, I think it matters very little. The TL is good example actually. Only the face a mother could love but it sells WAY more than 150 a month as we know. And before anyone says it, DON"T. Don't say that looks matters more when you're spending $50k or more. As if people only develop a sense of style when they have come to have a little more money in their pockets. Again, it's not one thing, or even a couple things.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Have to agree with you.

Well, except for one part. While the TL does sell significantly more than 150 per month, its sales have taken a hit since the 4G, and that's looking past the economic state. The competition has mostly picked itself back up to strong sales, but the TL has remained a much slower seller than in the last many years. The styling is probably what mostly has to do with it, primarily the beak and the tail. Some like me might also argue that some holes in the features area could be contributing too, but that is way further down on the list of reasons.

Legend2TL

Colin

you've probably seen the latest Acura commercials where they make fun of the various luxury items and the exclusive content in each one. The end of commercial is the prestige of safety in Acura vehicles which I think is a big improvement over some of the more recent commercials.

On terms of the other items in your list I don't think they are as insignificant as some thing (including myself).

BMW introduced alot of AL into the 5 series including the whole front sub-frame as well as many body panels. Similar to the RL, and BMW also used carbon fiber in the roof panel in the latest M3. Chevy used carbon fiber floor panels (sandwiched between basil wood core), Ti exhaust and a Al frame for the latest Z06. This was done for weight savings. Obviously alot of thought into cost and marketing went into this so I don't think it's as lost on folks spending the money on these items.

Acura is not alone with this approach and I'm a engineer so I appreciate it but somehow I think some (alot) of folks spending that sort money also appreciate it as well.

mrdeeno

My reasoning for focusing on RWD/V8 is that the current RL is NOWHERE NEAR a bad car. It's a very capable car and would satisfy 80% of the wants/needs of most people in that particular segment. But problem is, every other model in that market segment offers at least 80% of what someone wants/needs. That' missing 20% that Acura doesn't offer is being offered by everyone else. I'm not talking about only actual equipment or performance, I'm talking about every aspect, real and intrinsic, of why someone would buy a certain car (e.g. that it's associated with a "-series" or "-class", or that it's associated with OFFERING a performance oriented V8 version, or that some magazine said it's "a 5-series competitor at a cut-rate price", or whatever).

If they released a V8/RWD RL it wouldn't undoubtedly solve many of the RL's current problems. Actually I think it would be a hard sell if they released a V8/RWD RL for the MMC since the damage of a non-competitive product was already done. But leaving styling aside and keeping all else equal to the current RL (available SH-AWD, same amenities and technologies, etc), had they offered a V8/RWD RL when they introduced the current version in MY2005, my opinion is that it wouldn't have suffered the fate it's currently suffering. That's how almost perfect I think the current RL is (except for the MMC and that beak, and the weak rims offered from the factory), and the "almost" part is due to lack of V8/RWD and therefore the lack of an image associated with being able to compete with the "big boys".

smarty666

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here. While not the sole cause of its sales decline, the styling choices on the front end and rear end have turned a lot of people off from even considering getting a new TL, a lot of whom are former Acura owners/lessors. I have read plenty of reviews from MT, C/D, Road and Track, etc etc stating the shield grill as a con against the car, or at least, some testers/reviewers found it to be questionable and a turn off. So styling does have something to do with the sales decline of the TL. They just need to tone it down a little bit, which looks like something that Acura is doing for the MMC. It should help a little b/c the TSX and MDX have the similar, but more scaled down shield grill and their sales are pretty good.

SpicyMikey

Sorry I wasn't saying style has no effect on sales. Just saying I believe it has less to do with things than some think. The TL sales are down but who's to say that's not due to the increased size and price. Maybe where the TL sat before in those categories was the sweet spot and they should have left well enough alone.

Bold styling will lose you some sales. I'm sure the Audi drop jaw doesn't help sales. Certainly didn't help in the begining as I remember all the screaming about how ugly it was. But eventually people looked past it to see the other attributes the car offered. And now it's a signature look that other econo brands are trying to steal for some of Audi's mojo. Does it still turn off some and lose them sales. I'm sure. But the brand identify it offers makes up for it. Just like the ridiculous Rolls Royce inside-out radiator grill is a signature (if not ugly) look for that brand.

smarty666

Well as I said in another thread, some people don't like Audi's grill, I personally do, but Audi was smart and got those sweet ass LED DRLs on their models so even if you don't like the grill or front end, those DRLs distract you away from it so that is all you focus on when looking at it from the front!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Correct me with sales figures if I'm wrong, but I don't think the grille ever hurt Audi's sales. Complaints were much, much more widespread AND negative with the new Acura grille.

You're always going to have some lost sales with new moves, of course, but I think if anything their sales have risen.

mrdeeno

I think the way to put it (and this also applied when the 5-series was bangalized), is that the new audi grille was controversial because it was a departure from the usual and bolder than the old grille, not that it was ugly. People didn't have to "look past" the Audi grille to buy an Audi, they just had to get used to a new signature and they did.

The new Acura signature grille OTOH, although subjective, is generally considered ugly. People have to actively "look past" the Acura grille (especially on the TL and RL) to actually buy one.

Which makes me scratch my head...how could a design so universally panned as ugly make it off the drawing board? They could have at least considered that it works on some models and not others, so don't apply it on the ones it doesn't work on. Maybe the top honda guy was the guy who designed the grille and commanded it be put on all Acura's, and no one had the balls to challenge him, even though they all thought it was ugly and even he had his doubts, except everyone just said, "That's great, sir!" or "Very creative, sir!"
Who knows, maybe the head honcho is a fan of the aztek too...who knows.

Edward'TLS

I agree that the average 40+ years old female RL buyers don't care much about FWD, RWD, AWD; but they WILL certainly pay great attention to the price tags of their potential new cars, just like most other car buyers including you and me, irrespect of gender, age, or even color.

Within the same model family and assuming only 1 engine choice, the 2wd trim will be the cheapest whereas the AWD trim will cost the most.

Let's use the A6 as an example,

- V6 FWD : $45K
- .....
- .....
- V8 AWD : $59K
- (S6) V10 AWD : $77K.

So for those (female or not, age 40+ or not) who have a tight budget and just want to join the A6 club only pay $45K for their A6, and know-it-or-not, they automatically get the low-power FWD version of the A6.

For those (male or not, age <40 or not) who want a more capable and snow-tractable car pay $59K for their A6, and know-it-or-not, they automatically get the V8 AWD version.

For those hardcore speeders who want maximum thrills pay $77K for their V10 AWD S6.

In a way, the above buyers don't need to have any knowledge about 2wd/AWD and V6/V8/V10. They told the salesmen their needs and desires, and the salesmen will satisfy them with the required powertrain/driveline trims for the respective buyers.

Let's forget about the V8 and V10 trims for the A6 for the sake of comparing apple to apple.

The A6 has 5 powertrain/driveline trims to choose from, excluding the V8/V10 configuration and excluding the wagon body style.

But the RL has only 1 single powertrain/driveline trim available.

As the A6 has many more trims to choose from, it is going to cater to a much wider range of buyers (such as any combination of male/female/young/old/slow-driver/fast-driver/extreme-speeder/budget-minded/unlimited-budget) than the single trim RL.

The A6 might just be selling as many V6 AWD trims as the V6 AWD RL per month. But only after adding up the rest of the numerous A6 trims, the total number of A6 sales starts to fly away from that of the single (powertrain/driveline) trim RL.

The RL image is now ruin. No amount of V8 and RWD is gonna rescue it.

However, if the RL was initially available in V6/V8/RWD/AWD combinations right from the start, it would cater to much wider range of buyers who have different needs and budgets. But still it may not save the RL if the price tags aren't reasonable, but it would definitely improve sales above the current dismay level.

Since that you brought up the subject. I'm sure that most average female 40+ RL buyers have input from their partners when shopping for new cars, especially if their husbands/boyfriends are paying for them. In such case, fwd/rwd/awd and low-power/high-power engines DO matter in their new car selection processes.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Five A6 powertrain/drivetrain trims? excluding the V8 and V10? There's the 3.2, 3.0T, 4.2, and 5.2. That's four, AND four including the 8-10 cylinder choices.

Only way I understand that is if you were differentiating between Premium, Premium Plus, and Prestige, which brings the grand total to seven but also bumps the RL up to three.

Edward'TLS

100% agree.

The RL is a damn good car, but the Acura brand doesn't have enough upscale luxury image to justify it selling at the current price. So if Acura reduces the price of the fully-loaded RL to $40K, the car will definitely sell like hotcakes.

Remember that when Lexus introduced the V8 RWD flagship LS400 22 years ago, it was priced at $40K. The price was right for a newcomer "upscale" brand, and the car was well received and praised. The Lexus brand name becomes recognized and gains fame. It was slowly given the luxury brand status. Gradually, over the decades, the price for the LS began to creep up slowly, while sales remained good. Now the LS starts at $65K and tops out at $108K.

First gain fame, then raise price ...... slowly.

Everything takes time. It takes Lexus 20+ years to achieve what it is today, and most importantly, Lexus started off with the right foot by offering V8 and RWD which were and still are almost the requirements for all luxury brands.

Acura is now locked in a vicious cycle. It's $50K flagship car can't sell because the brand name isn't upscale enough, and the brand name can't go upscale because it can't even sell a $50K car.

Edward'TLS

My mistake.

You were right. 7 to 3, excluding V8/V10 and wagon body style.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Erm I get five for the A6 sedan with less than eight cylinders.

**Breakdown**

3.2 Premium
3.2 Premium Plus

3.0 Premium
3.0 Premium Plus
3.0 Prestige

4.2 Prestige
5.2 Prestige

smarty666

Make sure you get the premium plus trim at the least so you get those sweet a@# LED DRLs! , just saying, if your ever in the market for a new Audi!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Could any mod change the title by the way? It's now well established that the RL is not dying.

smarty666

I know, right? lol!!!

Edward'TLS

It is very unfortunate that the average person buying an RL is 40+ years old and probably most are female.

Please note that all these statistics of who buys what vehicles are compiled after the respective vehicles have been manufactured and sold. These stats are often used to gauge how successful a vehicle model is when compared with the target age and gender that the vehicle is originally designed for.

In other words, the Acura RL is only able to appeal to mostly 40+ years old and probably mostly female buyers. I'm sure that Acura didn't design the RL for this limited range of customers, but unfortunately ends up this way with the very limited selection of powertrain/driveline choice and performance level.

Like I said before, if V8 and RWD had been possible, the addition of

- a super-cheap, lighter, and faster V6 RWD trim, and
- an even faster and snow-tractable V8 AWD trim, and
- an even faster than faster, and snow-tractable V8 AWD trim, and
- a super-fast V8 RWD trim

will definitely extend the customer coverage to match that of the Audi A6, likely to be 30+ years old in both sexes.

SSFTSX

RWD will not make RL faster.
AWD A6 is as fast as RWD BMW 535/M37 with same fuel economy despite having only 6speed auto not the 8speed/7speed & 100lbs extra weight.
RL need be upgraded with 6speed Auto and MDX/ZDX engine with that new suspension.
I am pretty sure it would be as fast as 535 with even better handling.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

The MDX/ZDX engine is what is already in the RL.

And it would not be as fast as the 535. The turbo I6 in the Bimmer makes more torque then the RL. Which is the main reason Honda needs to get a damn V8.

SpicyMikey

Well, to an extent. Maybe a young girl is going to let their husband pickout the car for them (Oh Johnny, I don't know a thing about cars, you pick it out for me ). But a working woman 30+ (certainly 40+) I don't think cares what their husband thinks much about the car THEY are going to drive. Plus the husband has long given up trying to inject their opinion on such matters and just says, whatever you want dear. I speak from experience An RL is not your typical "first car" young couple purchase. If I said to my wife; "Hey baby get the BMW 535, its got a better 0-60 time, RWD, and far superior handling", she'd look at me like I was an idiot. Which I WOULD be! Because she doesn't care about those things and we'd be spending money on attributes that don't help her enjoy the car.

Look, I agree with most of what you guys think. I'm right there with you on your priorities and most of the arguments. But your preaching to the choir and it gives a false view of reality out there that a company like Acura has to deal with. I'm just trying to play devils advocate and inject some input from outside the choir.

SSFTSX

there is modicfication in the engine that make torque band wider. there is improved performance for MDX/ZDX.
ZDX reaches 0-100mph in 17 seconds. and that is 5 inch taller and 400 lbs heavier than RL. RL should get there in 14 second. which will be practicaly same as BMW 5 RWD 8speed auto.
MDX/ZDX also uses lighter wheels on 19inch. so there is way of boosting RL performance without V8.
Bottom line is engine/transmission commonality within MDX/ZDX/RL/TL/TSX/RDX. just like BMW using 3.0T in BMW 1,3,5,7, X5,X6 etc.

there is little business case for V8 unless Honda produces global V8 SUV like Toyota/Nissan.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Its called an intake manifold spacer, and its not ADVANCED technology.

The RL should do alot of things, but it doesnt. And thats why it doesnt sell well.

Edward'TLS

Not just for the RL, given the same amount of engine power, any 2wd vehicle will be faster in acceleration than the same vehicle, but with AWD, in the dry, because the extra AWD mechanics :

- add unnecessary dead weight to the AWD vehicle,
- eat up usable engine power due to parasitic gearing loss of AWD gearing.

RWD (or 2wd) not only makes the resulting RWD RL faster in acceleration, it will also makes the resulting RL CHEAPER in price.

Currently, the AWD RL in the cheaper trim costs $45K. Deleting the AWD option would probably knock another ~ $3-4K off the price tag, and would also lighten the curb weight by ~ 200 pounds. A cheaper entry level price tag will sure attract more buyers. But Acura has no such option.

Unfortunately, 300hp is too much for a FWD RL (or any existing FWD sport sedan on earth) to maintain good handling capability. So the only possibility for a good-handling 300hp 2wd RL has to be a RWD RL.

So if an AWD A6 is as fast as RWD BMW 535/M37, the 2wd A6 (if available, same hp as the AWD A6) will be even faster in drag races. On the contrary, the AWD A6 will even beat the AWD 535xi (if available) and the AWD M37x in drag races with ease.

neuronbob

Wow, just noticed the title of this thread and am changing it. The RL is NOT, repeat, NOT dying. Honda EVP Kondo says:

"When we deliberated domestic strategy, certainly there were some opinions opting to tentatively halt the model or to replace it," Kondo said of the RL. "However, it is still our flagship, our top-of-the-line model that has been with customers for the past 20 years. We can't scrap it."


http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...EM06/307269952

yohan81718

i thought the flagship model was NSX

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Also, a flagship sportscar is different from your flagship sedan.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

True, but Acura has neither.

yohan81718

well.. they just said flagship

i guess NSX is their supercar... like lexus has flagship of LS and supercar of LF-A

fsttyms1

Well hopefully they dump it sooner than later for something that actually sells.

SpicyMikey

Youd call the NSX more of a "halo" car. It's out of reach to most of the brands customer base and something to helpi boost image. Regardless, they don't even make the NSX anymore so it's neither a halo or flagship

neuronbob

Well....sales were up 26% in July.....to 172.

I am hopeful that the next RL brings me back to Acura.

biker

Someone is in denial and is being run by the marketeers.

fsttyms1

After the CTS-V thats a tall order. I highly doubt that acura could EVER build something that good.

TL1999

Acura has already losing to Hyundai and Kia so they really need to step it up as soon as possible.

They need to provide option of V8 for the consumer in the RL.

neuronbob

How so? I'm not being critical, just wondering what your thought is.

After a gas guzzler like the CTS-V, I could be ready for a DualNote-like hybrid in an attractive package. 400 hp, 40 mpg, and good looks would attract me. We'll see if I'm ready to give up hamburger for burger-flavored tofu in 2-3 years....or buy a 3G CTS-V or move to the Bimmer side....

They've already said the V8 is dead for the next RL. I hope they change their mind now that the economy has turned the corner, but I doubt it. With the new CAFE rules, and Honda's propensity to introduce new tech with the RL, I am willing to bet that the next RL will be a hybrid, hopefully a powerful one to sate luxury car lovers like myself.