mrdeeno

I don't define where each car competes, the market does and automakers do by designing and pricing their cars to fit into certain price structures and ranges. Otherwise we'd be comparing how well the RL stacks up against a Hyundai elantra.

Acura designs a car, markets it as a car that has a V6 that is competitive with other's V8's (I remember reading an article where one of the spokespeople, maybe it was Colliver or whoever, actually said that), prices it in the dead center of a segment where every other company offers a V8, and you don't think they should have to compete against V8s?

If you can only run 2k, do you really think you can enter a 5k and do well? That's what Acura did, their entrant into that segment did not offer everything taht would make it competitive in that segment.

Preconceived notions are generally accepted by the general public, and it makes sense because that's how the majority of people shop for cars. It's not up to me or you or Acura to change it. You can say that the RL competes with minivans for all I care, that doesn't change the fact that the RL is PRICED and DESIGNED as a midsize luxury model, and therefore Acura intended for the RL to compete in that segment. If they intended it to compete with near luxury models, they would've designed it and priced it accordingly to compete in that segment like the do with the TSX and TL.

I'm arguing the point of who is selling it, not where it sits in the lineup because where it sits is determined by Acura. You said that if you slap a lexus badge on it, it would sell. I am countering that point wholeheartedly that if everything else is equal (i.e. slapping a lexus badge on it, but design and price remain the same), it would still remain uncompetitive because no matter what badge was on it, it STILL fails to offer V8, RWD, and better styling and options that every other decent selling model in that segment offers.

mrdeeno

But you forget to mention the fact that the GS offers RWD, V8, and hybrid versions.

It just seems you guys are arguing this from a very narrow view. I'm not looking at this as "V6 RL vs. V6 GS" or "AWD RL vs. AWD GS". I'm looking at this from "RL vs GS" or "RL vs. M" or "RL vs. every other model in the segment".

It's the same freakin argument I always made. The RL does NOT have the equipment to be competitive in that segment. Is it competitive to SOME models with certain configurations? Sure! But it is NOT competitive in the segment as a whole, and not competitive with the better selling models in that segment as a whole, no matter what badge is on it.

SpicyMikey

We're not really that far off on viewpoint except on this last point. You lose me here. I think the RL would sell much better. In fact it already is. The RL is selling in their lineup as the GS as pointed out by others already. It's virtually the same car. In fact, I almost bought one 3 years ago before I got the RL. Even has the bland looks (before the last MMC). Tell me why the GS350 is such a better car and has warranted more sales over it's lifecycle? It's not because its in the Lexus lineup and offers a v8 variant (which no one really buys anyway)?

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

It might sell a little better, but probably not much.

The GS350 AWD (or GS300 AWD from 06-07 or something like that) is aided by more prestige than that which is surrounding the RL. The GS is not only from a more prestigious brand but is one people related with offering a V-8, perhaps even associated with rear drive. This makes it more upscale to a good portion of the public, I think. People don't buy the V8 model but it certainly enhances perception, and that's what many buyers are looking for here.

I also think it's noticably more styling, but that's me.

mrdeeno

But you are assuming everything is equal, which they are definitely not!

The GS MODEL offers RWD, offers a hybrid version, offers a V8. The RL MODEL does not offer these things. Regardless of whether people buy these or not is irrelevant, because if it were then NO brand would offer a V8 version.

You're still caught up on "V6 AWD vs. V6 AWD", which is fine if you want to look at it that way to support your case, but then bring up the M35x and see how your case is torn apart then, because Infiniti had equal if not worse image than Acura yet sells much better.

My argument is that you can't look at it from such a narrow viewpoint. Model for model (ie. RL vs. GS vs. M vs. E vs. 5, regardless of V6 or AWD or whatever), the RL is not competitive in the segment, regardless of what badge its wearing. On the flip side, I believe that slapping an Acura badge the GS MODEL (i.e. V6 and V8, RWD and AWD version) it would be competitive because of what it offered in regards to the segment it was competing in.

SpicyMikey

OK mrdeeno. We're starting to talk in a circle now. This all started in post 987 when I said that the RL would sell better as a Lexus with all things being equal. Not sure how anyone can honestly argue that but believe what you want. One thing most of us are in agreement on (and I stated it in that post), they need to add a v8, etc, etc, if they want this car to be a legitimate end-cap for the lineup and help the brand. Otherwise, the car hurts the brand which in turn hurts car which in turn further hurts the brand leading to a perpectual spiral downward.

CL6

Yes, this is how many new 2010s are available.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

So Mercedes' inventory of their 150-200+ thousand dollar S-Classes makes up nearly half of what Acura will probably sell in RLs this month.

mrdeeno

It would be nice if you remembered what you said. Here's what you said in post 987...
You don't mention anything about all things being equal.

But yes, I consider that all things are equal...the "Lexus" RL will be equal to the Acura RL because all you're doing is slapping a lexus badge on it...ie there is no V8/RWD/hybrid/etc. offered...which is what "slapping a badge" on a car means. As soon as you add a V8/RWD and other options, it's not simply "putting a badge on" as you put. If that's what you meant, then maybe you should've said that instead.

But instead if you meant "equal" as in if the RL was as copmetitive as the GS, it would sell like the GS because it offers equal options/engines/RWD/etc, then that's just stating the obvious. That's like saying "If I could play football like Brett Favre, then I can be competitive as Brett Favre". uh, DUH!

But that's what my viewpoint is. It has nothing to do with badge...Brett Favre under any other name can still play football well. Unless you're talking about BMW or MB, the badge can be overcome by the product. Unfortunately the RL product is not competitive in its segment, whether it wears a Lexus, Infiniti, Audi or whatever badge. And that's where I bring in Infiniti...it didn't need a "Lexus" badge to sell more, it just needed to get the formula right for the segment.

fsttyms1

You are EXACTLY spot on. Every one is looking at it as a same equipped vs same equipped. That is is all fine and dandy, But NOW look at ALL the other variations of the same car and acura just doesnt have it to compete with. Acura is just cant compete and its sales numbers reflect it.

CL6

Acura has simply chosen to go its own way. Some people prefer only one or two options and this appeals to them. For Acura to offer any of their cars in even 10 different flavors would be a nightmare because nobody would simply order the car and they would produce too many of one kind not enough of another.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You are referring to the comments of the GS being offered with multiple drive and engine options right?

In response to that, yes there are some buyers who prefer only one or two options....and with RL car having been a failure ever since its birth I think the portion of those buyers is just too small.

Edward'TLS

Very true.

The GS has options ..... lots and lots of options, such as powertrain options, drive-line options, hybrid option, etc. This almost mix-and-match variations enable the GS to capture a much, much wider range of buyers, which equates to more sales.

On the other hand, the RL has exactly one mechanical configuration : 3.7L-V6 with AWD. You either buy it or you don't. This is obviously going to limit the customer base.

Acura sold 163 RL's last month. Let's assume that Lexus also sold 163 GS350-AWD last month. But when Lexus also added up the total number of GS350-RWD, GS460-RWD, and GS450h sold last month, the total sales number is going to be many, many folds bigger.

Expensive car buyers are no fool, these days. They want choices. Give them lots of choices and they'll come to buy your cars.

Acura was and still is never ready to go upscale with the lack of V8 engines and simply RWD chassis, and it's reluctance to follow the main stream technologies.

Shift_Acura

End of Discussion/

Edward'TLS

Single flavor ordering only works well with economy brands when they need to churn out millions and millions of cheap little cars.

But for luxury brands, multiple flavor ordering is a must as demonstrated by the success of Audi, BMW, Lexus, and MB.

If Acura can't handle multiple flavor ordering, then it is simply not ready to become a true luxury brand that can. Acura has chosen to go it's own way, and this leads to it's downfall to go upmarket.

Legend2TL

The RL comes in 3 package selections and the MDX comes with 5 so not sure what you mean with the single flavor approach. Acura has always had package selections, Honda has had them since the first Accord. More recently they've had some individual options, notably being Navigation and summer tires. Also there are multiple color combinations available for interior/exterior. So they have pacakges but have very limited line options.

Engine packages tend to be much more limited at Acura, where the TL-S has a more powerful engines but the MDX comes with one engine. That is the luxury SUV market but none the less the MDX only comes with a 3.7L V6 and easily beats BMW and MB in that market in sales. But the BMW and ML offer V6 and V8 and individual options.

Enclave 4,715 +14.9%
SRX 4,081 +654.3%
MDX 4,064 +65.6%
x5 2,661 +21.1%
M class 2,264 +12%
MKX 1,705 -10.6%
GX 1,413 +111.5%
FX 860 +1.5%
Q7 666 -16.2%

In terms of the RWD hurting the RL, the A6 comes in AWD and FWD (yes you can order a FWD A6 for US) and DTS is FWD and only comes with a V8.

IMO the bottom line is most US mid-size luxury buyers would rather spend a little more money and get a MB or BMW. Really noone really competes with them in that market with the exception of the Cadillac DTS here are July's sales numbers.

E class 5,476 +140.7%
5 series 2,289 -41.4%
DTS 2,263 +48.9%
MKS 1,554 +17.6%
M 1,065 +61.9%
A6 784 +51.9%
GS 771 +49.4%
RL 151 -10.7%



To me alot of what is hurting the RL involves the price point, image, and some the vehicle design. It's small, Acura marketing has not been good for that model and it's priced too close to the MB and BMW models.

phile

while i do think options may help the competition, i don't think the lack of is hurting Acura. I personally prefer this method, especially when an Audi costs 50K+ and HIDs come as an option on a package - that actually annoys me more than me saying "oh look I have options". And I think we all know the RL's bigger problems aren't its lack of personal customization.

besides, it's not like you can go to a Lexus dealer and say you want X, Y & Z. I mean there are options, but it's the dealer who provides options he thinks consumers would want. Which is kinda what Acura does, except Acura comes from corporate level, and Lexus is at the dealer level.

SpicyMikey

agree. We're barking up the wrong tree to argue about Acura's method of selling options. There are options. It's just bundled in trim packages. There are usually 3 or 4. Its a better way of doing things, even Lexus and others are starting to move in that direction.

Besides, saying you have a menu of options when you buy a BMW, Mercedes, etc. is not true in reality. Have you ever shopped for those type of cars? The cars are built with the most popular configurations and shipped over here. Your choices are still limited to a few common configurations. Sure if you want to custom order and build one you can do that. But who is going to do that? Pay MSRP and wait 4 months for the car? Unless you REALLY do want some odd and specific configuration, most are going to just look for a car already here that they can live with even if it's not exactly what they'd build. How is that really different than what Acura does and some others now?

Acura's got problems. That's the least of them

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I don't know about the other posters, but I was talking also about engine options. Audi for example gives you Premium, Premium Plus, and Prestige, usually two or three of those offered with multiple engine choices, transmissions sometimes as well.

The TL and now only recently the TSX have that.

You also have to keep in mind most of those vehicles similarly equipped are considerably more expensive.

You're looking at nearly 60 thousand for an X5 with comparable power, leather, adaptive suspension, etc., and that still doesn't include things like navigation. The MDX is much more affordable because it starts at a similar price with the X5 but has sunroof and leather and many goodies that BMW nicks you for. Acura MDX Advances top out around 54K. I bet if you looked at the average transaction price for both there'd be about maybe 47K or something for the MDX (sticker prices, not deals), and at LEAST 10 grand more for the BMW. That's a big difference for a lot of people.

There's a good difference for the Mercedes as well. But the Mercedes is also older and aging, and sales tend to slow as a result.

I don't think rear drive is hurting the RL, so that throws the Audi out for me (it and the GS are aging as well so again sales are going to slow down).

The DTS still has a consumer base for those wanting big, cushy, premium AMERICAN branded wheels. There's also the fact that no one pays anywhere near sticker for the DTS, AND it has CONSIDERABLE portions sold as taxi/limo services and rentals. And again, I don't think front drive hurts its much, not in its market.

I agree.

I wasn't saying above simply "You're wrong", just that there's a lot more to sales figures than just appeal, but I bet you know that already.

fsttyms1

And i wouldnt call that a good thing period. The sales of the car are beyond laughable.

CL6

What I've found is E buyers (supposedly in the same class as RL buyers) really only want a few different options... P1 w/Navi is most common. Sometimes you get a P2 buyer (HIDs, Keyless Go) or someone wanting Pano but this is the minority. I don't think making cars with few options is doing too much harm to the RL... I think they just don't see how an Acura/Honda is worth 55 large. I think when people get into the 45-50k range they are looking at a Tier 1 brand. The RL gets overlooked.

And MB/Audi/BMW only offer so many options so they can sell more cars with fewer options. I read the new E has sold 300,000 units so MB can support this type of packaging. Acura, with much smaller sales, cannot.

After all, Acura's limited options packaging works well on TL/TSX levels and a TL can get into the low-40s but any higher than that you get a different type of customer.

I guess Acura is firmly what I'd call a "middle class luxury brand." My main observations of the RL is that is could use a little more room in the back, have a little faster pick-up, and get a little better gas mileage. Besides that the car is world class.

SpicyMikey

Thanks I was going to ask you what you thought since you're selling MB's now but I figured you'd chime in anyway

The one option/flexibility they need to addis an engine option with more power, or at least more torque. There are those that absolutely will not accept anything but a growling V8 so that would still be best, especially if they go large with the next RL. But a sophisticated v6 TC option for all their cars would be a great first step to changing the brands image in the direction it seems they want to go. Look what amazing things BMW does with their 3.0l. Not many people miss the extra cylinders with those setups.

Type34

^ I agree.

I was at the dealer the other day picking up my MDX and was examining a 2010 RL. I was trying to figure out how the dealer sells any of these in the wake of the MDX and the TL. Here were my thoughts and observations...

• With the size/hp boost of the TL + now SH-AWD, it makes the RL an also-ran.
• Of all the models, the "beak" looks the worst on this vehicle.
• A 2010 RL with Technology and CMBS / ACC Packages is $55,000 with destination.
• On this $55K vehicle, Acura charges $161 extra for Color-Matched Splash Guards.
• It comes in only three colors.
• Unless you get just the RL Technology, which comes in 5 colors (which basically only adds another grey and a blue)
• The only technology that sets this flagship apart is the Colision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) and Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) - I'd trade either of these in a millisecond for the MDX's multi-view rear camera and USB audio interface (among others).

In 2005, the TL, MDX, RL relationship made sense...now, the TL and MDX have squeezed the RL into irrelevance.

SpicyMikey

I agree and have said that recently myself. I'm not surprised they only sell 150 a month. I'm surprised they EVEN sell 150 a month. The car is not a smart pick in 2010 (and that's coming from someone who owns one). There are just too many other better more refreshed options including a car on the same showroom floor - the TLSHAWD. To me, right now, the best choice in this RL category (if you are value driven like me) is probably the CTS with Premium package. Same power as the RL, same good interior space, but RWD, an extra gear, updated technology, AND several thousand cheaper similarly equipped. PLUS they are giving them with 0% financing AND you have the choice of a v8 if you really want it and are willing to pay for the extra horses and kick. Sounds like I'm selling CTS's. But that's just one option. There are others good choices also if you are in the 45-50k market and want value. If you want image the refreshed E and 535 are great too. But, you have to pay a premium for the badges

Legend2TL

And with that volume MB is most probably making decent profit on the E-class while Honda/Acura will have a extremely difficult time trying to get volume efficiency even with some of the reuse of the J motor and SH-AWD components.

When the RL came out from a design point of view it competed well in it's class but now with newer models from MB, BMW,... and no major updates (still has a 5AT) it's easy to see why the sales have fallen so much.

silver3.5

the RL is as good as a sitting duck waiting for my shotgun to unload on it. while the party have moved onto bigger and better things (i.e. options of V8, hybrid, AWD, RWD, more horsepower, more fancy tech stuff, etc...), the RL is going backwards. if i got 55 large to spend, i am sure ain't spending it on a car that looks like a beaver tooth, underpowered, bland, and have no options. i want to be unique, different from the crowd and the RL is just like any other accords or camry out there.....same as everyone else.

Legend2TL

I agree, the upscaling of the TL in size and features have made the RL even less relevant.

Edward'TLS

As a matter of fact, that's what I did. Back in 2005, I cross-shopped the AWD RL with the Quattro A6 and the AWD M35 (the AWD GS wasn't out then). I ended up custom ordered the A6 which saved me tons of money. I was in no hurry to have the car right away. I had all the time I want. I waited and I saved.

In fact, my custom ordered A6 ended up thousands cheaper than the then-one-choice-only RL. However, the RL was very well equipped indeed, but why force me to pay for standard equipments such as power sunroof, GPS, high power bose audio, etc. when I had no desire for them.

The following year, Acura realized this mistake and immediately released a much cheaper, reduced content RL to try to rescue sales. This gave the RL buyers a total choice of TWO to choose from, but still with the single flavor of powertrain and driveline combination.

It is a fair game. For those who have to have a new car right away, they pay extra money for that privilege. But for those who want to save money, they custom order their cars and wait for them.

The Audi dealership I bought my A6 from once told me a little secret. The dealership orders nothing but fully loaded Audi's. So it can reap the most profit from those buyers who must have a new Audi right away. But smart buyers tend to do custom ordering. They wait and they save. At the end of the model year, the dealership will heavily discounted all these fully-loaded leftover models because there ain't no more money-no-objective-must-have-new-car-now people. This is the time to buy bargain Audi's.

Edward'TLS

I was referring to mechanical options (flavors) such as 2wd/AWD and V6/V8/V10. This is significant because buyers can't retrofit them after they bought their vehicles. But for other interior/exterior non-mechanical options, most can be retrofitted afterward.

Acura
TSX : I4-FWD, V6-FWD
TL : 3.5L-V6-FWD, 3.7L-V6-AWD
RL : 3.7L-V6-AWD
RDX : I4T-FWD, AWD optional
MDX : 3.7L-V6-AWD
ZDX : 3.7L-V6-AWD

But for BMW, MB, and Lexus, most models can be ordered as a combination of both V6/V8/(V10) and 2wd/AWD. This virtually mix-and-match variation is what Acura is lacking in flavor.

docboy

Well said.

+2 on the MDX's multi-view camera. I tried it on a 2010 MDX Tech loaner, and it works wonders. A very nice feature, and IMHO it's a must have for safety (checking out for small children in the parking lot when in reverse), and ease of use when backing up and parallel parking.

IMHO, the multi-view camera virtually addresses my main chief prior concern with driving a large SUV (difficulty w/visual access during backing up and parallel parking). I have on my radar a CPO 2010+ MDX Tech as my next vehicle

The RL's CMBS and ACC are ho hum features IMHO; not enough for me to want to fork over $10k+ over the TL's excellent 6MT and SH-AWD combo.

The RL definitely needs further separation from the TL. I have a gut feeling Acura realizes this, or at least I hope they do.

Colin

Let's begin by saying that I'm not suggesting that the RL isn't a lame duck at this point. Nor am I suggesting that the items below are enough to offset the perceived (or real) deficiencies of the car. But the RL still has differences from the rest of the lineup that are not obvious to most shoppers or even many of the people here. The RL (off the top of my head):

- Is made in Japan (not a big deal to me, but important to some)
- Is the only Acura to offer adaptive headlights
- Is the only Acura with real wood trim
- Is the only Acura with a hand sanded primer coat
- Is the only SH system with the variable acceleration device with up to 5.7% overdrive
- Is the only SH system with a carbon fiber reinforced prop shaft
- Uses aluminum for the hood, front fenders, trunk, subframes, wishbones (the most aluminum since the NSX)

Not that this makes any difference in sales, but there are little gems in there that are overlooked.

Edward'TLS

The lack of RWD chassis is definitely hurting RL and even the want-to-be-true-luxury Acura brand.

Why ?

Acura wants to give the RL more power. But due to the FWD's inherited handicap in handling too much engine power, the RL is forced to go AWD. There is no other alternative. The 300hp 3.7L-V6 is simply too powerful to drive only two front wheels while still maintaining good vehicle handing.

AWD is the best choice in adverse weather conditions. But for those who don't need AWD traction, AWD

- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.

Remember that when compared to AWD, RWD

- is lighter and mechanically simple
- will handle well with massive engine power depending on vehicle tuning
- makes the car faster due to no AWD gearing loss and lighter curb weight
- allows for a lower MSRP price tag.

Imagine that Acura had a RWD chassis. Then the RL could have more flavors. Let's say a 300hp RWD RL as basic model with optional SH-AWD to choose from. Better still was the availability of a V8 powerplant. Then the RL would have four flavor to choose from :

V6-RWD / V6-AWD / V8-RWD / V8-AWD.

I'm sure the alternate availability of a cheaper and faster 300hp RWD RL would have captured a whole lot more potential buyers. Available RWD chassis for other Acura models might even propel the brand past the all-FWD-chassis Audi.

A faster and cheaper Acura RL, who could ask for anything more !

Better still is the availability of a V8 engine or a 350-400hp supercharged/hybrid V6 that will put the flavors on par with BMW, MB, and Lexus.

CL6

MB understands that not many buy the V8 and maybe they don't make much money on it but it is important to have it just as having the G550, GL550, or SL65 is important. Acura doesn't sell enough cars to do that. Well, they kind of kept the NSX on for a while but when Mr. Honda died the company went to shit.

I get plenty of people who WANT the V8 but settle for the V6... maybe in their mind some of that V8 power rubs off on their car... or they hope to get a CPO one some day.

I love the RL before they hit it with the ugly stick and I'd buy one if I needed such a car (over an E) but that's only because I sold them and I know the car.

Acura should just sell a damn RL with every Japanese tech toy on it... they had or have cool options for it in Japan like these front bumper cameras... just put it out there let people see what you could have. But they won't... they're too conservative in their business model.

Cars like the NSX and the RL show or showed what Acura was capable of doing yet didn't. And that's sad and why I left because if a company doesn't have confidence in themselves why am I, as a sales person, going have it?

And Colin your points are all great but there's not enough sizzle in that steak I think. It's more of an intellectual sell.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You're looking at it too much from an engineering, enthusiast-type perspective.

The average buyer of these types of cars isn't aware or much aware of these points you made:

- robs power due to parasitic gearing loss
- adds weight to the car making the car accelerates slower
- waste gas
- adds cost to maintenance and future repairs
- adds cost to the MSRP of the car.

I'm by no means opposed to a rear drive RL! However, I don't think it kills sales. In fact, The A6 could be perceived even worse for actually arriving (albeit rarely) on lots with front drive! And yet in an equally old age it continues to outsell the RL by a margin of roughly seven to one.

Perception means a lot, and that's the problem with the RL, at least the main one....not which wheels are driving it.

Edward'TLS

I'm sure that the average buyers can tell between a 300hp 2wd car (unfortunately not possible for the FWD chassis RL) and a same 300hp but with AWD car, once they step on the gas pedal. With 2 more wheels to spin up and with 2 more rubber to ground traction patches to break loose, the AWD car will seem sluggish off the line when compared to the same 2wd car.

But with ample horsepower (another 50 to 100 more hp), the difference in acceleration feel between the 2wd and the AWD cars becomes almost negligible. Once again, no such luck for the Acura RL for lacking a high-power (350-400hp) V6 or a V8 engine choice.

When compared to the A6, the RL is definitely on the losing end in terms of capturing a wide range of customers.

The A6/S6 has numerous (mechanical) flavors to choose from :

- V6 FWD
- high-power V6 AWD
- V8 AWD
- V10 AWD
- sedan/wagon body style.

The RL has a total number of 1 (mechanical) flavor to choose from :

- V6 AWD.

By making available lots of powertrain/driveline choices to customers, it is obvious that the many variations of A6 will attract a wider range of buyers, and subsequently, can command a whole lot more sales than the single-powertrain/driveline-choice RL.

Note that the all-FWD-chassis Audi is also haunted by the same problem as the also all-FWD-chassis Acura. All high-power (>290hp) engine options MUST pair with AWD mechanics. There is no other alternative, with the lack of RWD chassis for Audi.

Similarly, imagine that if Audi had a RWD chassis, there wouldn't be any more problem pairing high-power engines with 2wd mechanics. Then the mechanical matrix would become even broader, such as hypothetically :

- V6 RWD
- V6 AWD
- high-power V6 RWD
- high-power V6 AWD
- V8 RWD
- V8 AWD
- V10 RWD
- V10 AWD
- sedan/wagon body style.

This mechanical ordering matrix is now closely resemble those of BMW and MB, which use RWD on base vehicles and make available AWD as an optional upgrade. When this happens, I'm sure the A6 sales may even catch up with the 5-series, the E-class, and the GS too.

Legend2TL

Pretty valid point that's alot of substance in the 2G RL most folks don't know or think about. I knew about some but not all (carbon shaft, wood, and some of the aluminum).

The interior and wood trim are one area that you definitely notice. Last time I was at the Acura dealer (getting tires mounted and a alignment), I spent most of my time looking at the RL and new TL in the showroom and the level of fir/finish of the materials in the RL is a couple steps above the TL 4G and many above my 3G TL. The switch detents and feel are much nicer than the other Acura's.

Legend2TL

No I agree, there's a lot more to sales numbers.

The cost aspect of the MDX may be one considering it's 10-20% price differential. But at the same time I think Acura did a excellent job on the MDX creating a hybrid SUV catering to what people really wanted and use.

It's also a great design and on the 1G to offer 3 rows of seating which was a bold move on Honda/Acura's part which may have been a first for a mid-sized SUV. And having the seats fold flat versus being taken out was a design/engineering challenge.

On the RL, Acura went the Audi route by having a FWD platform and adapting the chassis/drivetrain but also having a very novel AWD system that was a first a few years ago. It still amuses me how many 4-matic and "X" suffixes I see on C/E/S and 3/5 series, mostly due to Audi.

Legend2TL

While I disagree that the RWD is hurting the RL I do agree on your points of AWD versus RWD. Personally I would prefer a 2WD 5G TL to a AWD 5G TL. The weight and parasitic power loss is too much for dry conditions, in the snow/ice I compensate by driving like a grandmother .

SpicyMikey

I agree. But that type of thinking is common on these boards. The great majority of us on here are youthful males's. 20-35 year old car guys. Is it any surprise the vast majority of discussion is about horsepower, handling, wheel size, etc. Thats great for a discussion among those who care about such things, like us, but it hardly matters to the majority of car buyers in the world. Certainly not the majority of near luxury car buyers.

Many people like to argue that these things are more important to those who are buying $40-$50k cars. You know, they say; Hey if a person is spending $50k on a car he wants it to have kick, a v8, or he wants to have 19 inch wheels. News flash: Those things are more important to people buying $20k Mustangs NOT $50k luxury sedans. The average person buying an RL is 40+ years old and probably most are female. They want a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass. They want a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory. Maybe that's not the case on these car boards, but that's just because those type of people mostly aren't on here to begin with. Except for moi. The demographics are skewed.

My wife is probably the typical RL car buyer. 51 year old female. Who, by the way, could care less about fwd, rwd. She definitly appreciates the AWD, but if only given a choice between fwd or rwd she would definitely -- hold on to something -- prefer fwd. Thats seems like blasphemy but its the truth and I suspect its the truth for most females because it's "safer". Given the fact that 50+ percent of the car drivers in this country are females, the question needs to be asked; Does the v8 and RWD argument really hold water as the reason the RL isn't selling well. I say that it's part of the problem but, like the earlier argument about lack of option selection, far from the main reason. I given the main reasons I think the RL is a failure many times. I won't repeat myself again.

biker