Acura: RLX News
08-05-2010, 08:49 PM
#2241
I know what you mean, and you'd think Honda would be able to come up with a fantastic hybrid, but so far they've really dropped the ball on that segment. latest episode of South Park has a hybrid called the Hindsight, which I think was very apt in satirizing Honda.
08-05-2010, 09:31 PM
#2242
Senior Moderator
After a gas guzzler like the CTS-V, I could be ready for a DualNote-like hybrid in an attractive package. 400 hp, 40 mpg, and good looks would attract me. We'll see if I'm ready to give up hamburger for burger-flavored tofu in 2-3 years....or buy a 3G CTS-V or move to the Bimmer side....
you think that will happen?? They can barely even get those mpg numbers out of the little 98 hp 4 cyl Insight.. That will never happen.
08-05-2010, 09:48 PM
#2243
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How so? I'm not being critical, just wondering what your thought is.
After a gas guzzler like the CTS-V, I could be ready for a DualNote-like hybrid in an attractive package. 400 hp, 40 mpg, and good looks would attract me. We'll see if I'm ready to give up hamburger for burger-flavored tofu in 2-3 years....or buy a 3G CTS-V or move to the Bimmer side....
They've already said the V8 is dead for the next RL. I hope they change their mind now that the economy has turned the corner, but I doubt it. With the new CAFE rules, and Honda's propensity to introduce new tech with the RL, I am willing to bet that the next RL will be a hybrid, hopefully a powerful one to sate luxury car lovers like myself.
After a gas guzzler like the CTS-V, I could be ready for a DualNote-like hybrid in an attractive package. 400 hp, 40 mpg, and good looks would attract me. We'll see if I'm ready to give up hamburger for burger-flavored tofu in 2-3 years....or buy a 3G CTS-V or move to the Bimmer side....
They've already said the V8 is dead for the next RL. I hope they change their mind now that the economy has turned the corner, but I doubt it. With the new CAFE rules, and Honda's propensity to introduce new tech with the RL, I am willing to bet that the next RL will be a hybrid, hopefully a powerful one to sate luxury car lovers like myself.
The only hybrids to get that kind of mileage have less than 200 horsepower and are way lighter than any sport luxury car.
Even 300-350 horsepower diesels are in the 30+ mpg range, though they're all several years old now.
I think technology is available for a diesel to do that kind of power and mileage, but not a hybrid....not yet.
08-06-2010, 12:14 AM
#2244
6G TLX-S
The only way to cheat it through is to use cylinder deactivation. 400hp is achieved by activating all cylinders all at once, and 40 highway mpg is achieved by limping along on 2 cylinders on a super-ultra-overdrive gear ratio.
08-06-2010, 07:28 AM
#2245
Race Director
Look at what the guy said - "it's our flagship, we can't scrap it" (never mind that it's selling less than one car per dealer per month and we're losing money on every sale). That's a marketeer talking. It took many years and lots of bleeding in terms of cost to Honda for them to scrap the NSX. And unlike the NSX elimination, getting rid of the RL will do nothing to hurt the brand. Infiniti did it when the Q sales were down to the RL sales levels - Honda is like the typical Japanese - they have to save face, regardless of the fact that the obvious is staring them in the face.
08-06-2010, 08:05 AM
#2246
Go Big Blue!
Look at what the guy said - "it's our flagship, we can't scrap it" (never mind that it's selling less than one car per dealer per month and we're losing money on every sale). That's a marketeer talking. It took many years and lots of bleeding in terms of cost to Honda for them to scrap the NSX. And unlike the NSX elimination, getting rid of the RL will do nothing to hurt the brand. Infiniti did it when the Q sales were down to the RL sales levels - Honda is like the typical Japanese - they have to save face, regardless of the fact that the obvious is staring them in the face.
Look, I agree the current RL is the wrong car in the wrong place for this lineup, but if you're suggesting just going down to the TSX and TL on the sedan offerings, then I can't agree. I think the RL needs to be replaced with something that fits the current lineup better, not eliminate it. In other words, larger and more luxurious to separate it from the larger and more luxurious TL and TSX replacements that have been introduced since the current gen RL was released in 05.
In 05, it seems to me, the brand was truly Honda+, and the then TSX, TL, and RL products worked well together as a natural progression out of the Honda lineup. But Acura has been clearly pushing this brand upmarket in the latest generation of products and the RL is just the last remaining component from a prior floorplan. Granted it seems like Acura, as usual, is moving a bit slow on the RL evolution, but I have no doubts now given the latest product releases, that the replacement to this gen RL will significantly separate itself from the TL and be a more worthy flagship for the brand.
08-06-2010, 09:49 AM
#2247
Senior Moderator
And getting rid of the Q helped the Infiniti brand image?
Look, I agree the current RL is the wrong car in the wrong place for this lineup, but if you're suggesting just going down to the TSX and TL on the sedan offerings, then I can't agree. I think the RL needs to be replaced with something that fits the current lineup better, not eliminate it. In other words, larger and more luxurious to separate it from the larger and more luxurious TL and TSX replacements that have been introduced since the current gen RL was released in 05.
In 05, it seems to me, the brand was truly Honda+, and the then TSX, TL, and RL products worked well together as a natural progression out of the Honda lineup. But Acura has been clearly pushing this brand upmarket in the latest generation of products and the RL is just the last remaining component from a prior floorplan. Granted it seems like Acura, as usual, is moving a bit slow on the RL evolution, but I have no doubts now given the latest product releases, that the replacement to this gen RL will significantly separate itself from the TL and be a more worthy flagship for the brand.
Look, I agree the current RL is the wrong car in the wrong place for this lineup, but if you're suggesting just going down to the TSX and TL on the sedan offerings, then I can't agree. I think the RL needs to be replaced with something that fits the current lineup better, not eliminate it. In other words, larger and more luxurious to separate it from the larger and more luxurious TL and TSX replacements that have been introduced since the current gen RL was released in 05.
In 05, it seems to me, the brand was truly Honda+, and the then TSX, TL, and RL products worked well together as a natural progression out of the Honda lineup. But Acura has been clearly pushing this brand upmarket in the latest generation of products and the RL is just the last remaining component from a prior floorplan. Granted it seems like Acura, as usual, is moving a bit slow on the RL evolution, but I have no doubts now given the latest product releases, that the replacement to this gen RL will significantly separate itself from the TL and be a more worthy flagship for the brand.
08-06-2010, 01:37 PM
#2248
Race Director
And getting rid of the Q helped the Infiniti brand image?
Look, I agree the current RL is the wrong car in the wrong place for this lineup, but if you're suggesting just going down to the TSX and TL on the sedan offerings, then I can't agree. I think the RL needs to be replaced with something that fits the current lineup better, not eliminate it. In other words, larger and more luxurious to separate it from the larger and more luxurious TL and TSX replacements that have been introduced since the current gen RL was released in 05.
Look, I agree the current RL is the wrong car in the wrong place for this lineup, but if you're suggesting just going down to the TSX and TL on the sedan offerings, then I can't agree. I think the RL needs to be replaced with something that fits the current lineup better, not eliminate it. In other words, larger and more luxurious to separate it from the larger and more luxurious TL and TSX replacements that have been introduced since the current gen RL was released in 05.
I never said the RL shouldn't be replaced, it definitely should - but to keep bleeding just to save face so you can say you have a "flagship".
Why was it so simple to kill it in Japan?
08-06-2010, 01:41 PM
#2249
Go Big Blue!
^^ Oh. For that point I agree with you. No one would even notice if they stopped selling it. In fact, I suspect dealers would be thrilled because I'm sure they cringe everytime they see one getting dropped off at their lots. They probably think. Oh man, I wonder how long it will take us to sell this one? From what I've noticed and heard, many don't even waste the precious showroom floor space anymore to display one unless they have extra space to spare. If not, outside on the front display pads it goes!
08-06-2010, 10:08 PM
#2250
And getting rid of the Q helped the Infiniti brand image?
Look, I agree the current RL is the wrong car in the wrong place for this lineup, but if you're suggesting just going down to the TSX and TL on the sedan offerings, then I can't agree. I think the RL needs to be replaced with something that fits the current lineup better, not eliminate it. In other words, larger and more luxurious to separate it from the larger and more luxurious TL and TSX replacements that have been introduced since the current gen RL was released in 05.
In 05, it seems to me, the brand was truly Honda+, and the then TSX, TL, and RL products worked well together as a natural progression out of the Honda lineup. But Acura has been clearly pushing this brand upmarket in the latest generation of products and the RL is just the last remaining component from a prior floorplan. Granted it seems like Acura, as usual, is moving a bit slow on the RL evolution, but I have no doubts now given the latest product releases, that the replacement to this gen RL will significantly separate itself from the TL and be a more worthy flagship for the brand.
Look, I agree the current RL is the wrong car in the wrong place for this lineup, but if you're suggesting just going down to the TSX and TL on the sedan offerings, then I can't agree. I think the RL needs to be replaced with something that fits the current lineup better, not eliminate it. In other words, larger and more luxurious to separate it from the larger and more luxurious TL and TSX replacements that have been introduced since the current gen RL was released in 05.
In 05, it seems to me, the brand was truly Honda+, and the then TSX, TL, and RL products worked well together as a natural progression out of the Honda lineup. But Acura has been clearly pushing this brand upmarket in the latest generation of products and the RL is just the last remaining component from a prior floorplan. Granted it seems like Acura, as usual, is moving a bit slow on the RL evolution, but I have no doubts now given the latest product releases, that the replacement to this gen RL will significantly separate itself from the TL and be a more worthy flagship for the brand.
The Q was not selling well and Infiniti did not know what to do with it to improve it at that time to make it more competitive. So they made the smart decision to discontinue it. Remember, at that time in 2005, it had only been 2-3 years since they were on the brink of obscurity in 2002 before they introduced the 1st G Sedan and 1G FX. They both were selling well, but since it was not to soon since their introduction they wanted to focus on their better selling models and improving the M's status. The M has been able to move upmarket since 2005 to where it currently sits. By getting rid of the Q, Infiniti was able to focus on the G, FX, and M.
In time, once the new entry level G25 is introduced and see how sales go, there is talk of at some point bringing back the Q as the flagship but not right now. They are taking each step at a time and see how things go.
I personally think they need to refocus on their cross-over FX and EX models. Both do not sell very well for them, and the FX needs a complete redo. They basically took my beautiful/sporty 1G FX and uglifed the front and rear end without changing the overall body style. The damn thing looks like a catfish now
. The EX is too small and cramped for a cross-over type vehicle and needs those areas improved. Once the G25, G37, M, FX, EX, and QX are ALL selling well, Infiniti can begin to rethink a Q luxury flagship sedan to slot above the M.
If the Essence concept is any indication of the direction Infiniti is going, BMW should be very worried.
Last edited by smarty666; 08-06-2010 at 10:12 PM.
08-07-2010, 08:29 AM
#2251
Senior Moderator
Sure it helped them! I think 2005 was the last model year. Infiniti has more guts then Acura to change their company around and seems to be able to do it much more quickly then Acura is willing or trying to do. I have vehicles from both companies and have spent a lot of time in their vehicles, researching their companies, and their focus/future direction. Acura needs to take a page from Infiniti and either (1) get rid of the RL or (2) completely redo the RL NOW and stop procrastinating on the damn thing.
08-07-2010, 10:36 AM
#2252
Go Big Blue!
Remember (or realize) Nissan is and was not in the same situation as Honda. Eventhough both companies have gross sales that are close to each other (approaching $100 billion), Nissan was, and still is, in a much more tentative situation. They are nowhere near as diversified and nowhere near as successful or well run as Honda. Nissan has gambled more and taken on more debt. Nissan has made more mistakes. Nissan doesn't have ASIMO
As a result of that, their "take home pay" from that $100 billion is nothing to be proud of. From a gross income standpoint they are a little less than half as successful as Honda (about $25b versus $12b for last year) and took it on the chin pretty hard during this economic downturn. Nissan ended up LOSING over $2 billion last year while Honda still made over $1 billion in profits last year in this terrible economy. Honda's balance sheet is pretty. Nissan's balance sheet looks more like the front end of the TL.
So in short, Honda can leave the Acura RL where it is for now without Board member disapproval because they CAN. It's not losing them money. All the R&D and all the tooling is behind them. With that base covered it seems like a no brainer to let it continue. It adds another option for customers walking into a showroom and at least we know a couple hundred people a month appreciate that. It helps keep the "seat warm" for the next gen sedan to sit above the TL eventhough the current RL doesn't fit consistently in size with the current TSX and TL. I've heard no convincing BUSINESS argument why Acura should stop selling it without having a replacement. You lose momentum in that segment that's hard to get back. Look what happened to the NSX. Shouldn't have ended it until they had the replacement ready.
08-07-2010, 11:37 AM
#2253
Senior Moderator
If the Essence concept is any indication of the direction Infiniti is going, BMW should be very worried.
---
Going back on topic, the RL ... requires a major revamp. Honda should allocate a lot of resources on this new model. Hopefully their monies can be recouped with an economy of scale trickle down of technologies from the RL replacement to their other models (TL / TSX ... etc)
Last edited by derrick; 08-07-2010 at 11:40 AM.
08-07-2010, 12:58 PM
#2254
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Acura had less guts to me. Instead of going for their already successful lineup, they renamed their vehicles with two or three letters. They chased the Lexus LS and things haven't been the same since.
Acura has become a lost brand.
Nissan isn't as diversified as Honda? Do you mean in something other than products? Because Nissan offers a lot of vehicles Honda does not have an alternative for.
08-07-2010, 02:06 PM
#2255
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Diversification means that Honda is in markets outside the auto business, not that Nissan has a V8 and a RWD platform, which Honda lacks. Although's Honda's auto division contributes a majority of their revenue, their motorcycle and power products businesses helped them perform better during the downturn than Nissan and Toyota. Although you may not like Honda's cars, it is nearly impossible to make a legitimate argument that Nissan has a better business position than Honda.
08-07-2010, 02:09 PM
#2256
. this kind of management lead to down fall of engineering companies.
When Nissan was losing money and this famous cost cutter got the highest salary. this person is more style than substance.
I highly doubt best and brightest of Japanese engineers will be working for Nissan and those worked they will jump the ship to Honda/Toyota.
Not that it will matter at the end as Nissan will be using outside suppliers for almost anything.
Honda salaries are better than Toyota but this Nissan is over the top.
When Nissan was losing money and this famous cost cutter got the highest salary. this person is more style than substance.
I highly doubt best and brightest of Japanese engineers will be working for Nissan and those worked they will jump the ship to Honda/Toyota.
Not that it will matter at the end as Nissan will be using outside suppliers for almost anything.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...hosn-6.6m.html
Nissan pays chief Carlos Ghosn £6.6m
Carlos Ghosn, the chief executive of Nissan, earned £6.6m last year, the highest executive salary publicly reported in Japan so far.
Nissan pays chief Carlos Ghosn £6.6m
Carlos Ghosn, the chief executive of Nissan, earned £6.6m last year, the highest executive salary publicly reported in Japan so far.
Honda salaries are better than Toyota but this Nissan is over the top.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/10/r...e-than-toyota/
According to Bloomberg, Nissan is the place to be a director for a Japanese automaker. According to a new article, Nissan Motor Company hands its directors close to four times the amount of pay as its rival Toyota and three times as much as what Honda directors bring home. Averaged among all of Nissan's directors, the heads of the company make around $1.5 million per year, compared to around $411,150 for Toyota's gurus and $529,561 for Honda's head honchos. Keep in mind those numbers are based on current conversion rates
According to Bloomberg, Nissan is the place to be a director for a Japanese automaker. According to a new article, Nissan Motor Company hands its directors close to four times the amount of pay as its rival Toyota and three times as much as what Honda directors bring home. Averaged among all of Nissan's directors, the heads of the company make around $1.5 million per year, compared to around $411,150 for Toyota's gurus and $529,561 for Honda's head honchos. Keep in mind those numbers are based on current conversion rates
08-07-2010, 02:26 PM
#2257
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Diversification means that Honda is in markets outside the auto business, not that Nissan has a V8 and a RWD platform, which Honda lacks. Although's Honda's auto division contributes a majority of their revenue, their motorcycle and power products businesses helped them perform better during the downturn than Nissan and Toyota. Although you may not like Honda's cars, it is nearly impossible to make a legitimate argument that Nissan has a better business position than Honda.
And I like Hondas (I have two). I just don't like the recent direction.
08-07-2010, 02:44 PM
#2258
Go Big Blue!
This is probably debatable, but it's Infiniti that has been making a new image for themselves, a sort of Japanese BMW of sorts. Acura remains nothing more than the fancy Honda brand. A lot of people don't even seem to associate Infiniti with Nissan (I hear many thinking Infiniti is Toyota's luxury brand!).
Acura had less guts to me. Instead of going for their already successful lineup, they renamed their vehicles with two or three letters. They chased the Lexus LS and things haven't been the same since.
Acura has become a lost brand.
Acura had less guts to me. Instead of going for their already successful lineup, they renamed their vehicles with two or three letters. They chased the Lexus LS and things haven't been the same since.
Acura has become a lost brand.
I suppose you can believe and say what you want. I won't suggest you get banned from Acurazine
, but the inconvenient truth for that argument is; 1) Sales are up more than most others this year
2) Three of their six cars hold the top three spot in their luxury/near luxury segment
3) they have a significantly higher brand recognition and image than Infiniti based on a recent industry ranking that was just posted on this very sight about 2 weeks ago.
I'm worried you have been brainwashed my friend listening to all the perpectual whiners on here that are frustrated because Acura isn't what they want it to be. It's like they all feed off each other and have convinced themselves that Acura is some terrible loser brand and Honda is led by a bunch of monkeys.
As far as "guts". Those weren't my words. I was responding to smart666's reference. I woundn't refer to either company in those terms. It has nothing to do with guts. They are making purely business strategy decisions to make money and it happens not to align with what many people on here want to see. But that's one of the things that confuses me so much. Maybe someone can explain it to me. Truth is, Acura is NOT a car enthusiasts brand. I don't even know why people who are interested in horsepower and driving dynamics would even buy an Acura. That's not their market and never was. It's like people are faulting Acura for being something they never were. Aside from the NSX they never made anything that I thought was exciting. In fact, prior to this last strategy shift a few years ago, I'd say Acura's were just little shit box Honda's with leather. Recently they are starting to become a bit more but not much and are still basically upscaled Hondas. But I don't say that like it's a bad thing. Honda's are great cars if that's what you are looking for. No offense to anyone who owns a Honda or a Acura.
You're right. It was Infiniti that remained lukewarm in the beginning and sales quickly sank to the point of chaos by the late 1990s. The brand was rumored to be heading behing the barn for an execution. But Nissan has changed some of those matters.
Nissan isn't as diversified as Honda? Do you mean in something other than products? Because Nissan offers a lot of vehicles Honda does not have an alternative for.
Nissan isn't as diversified as Honda? Do you mean in something other than products? Because Nissan offers a lot of vehicles Honda does not have an alternative for.
So here's my summary of true reality according to Mike.
Read it to yourselves a few times to try and break out of the trance many seem to be in: Honda is a conservative car company that makes a near luxury brand called Acura. The cars are NOT for people who are looking for a car that will drift well on track day this weekend. Also, if you are looking for advanced drive trains or v8's, Acura is not for you and probably never will be. Want head snapping torque? Nope Acura's not for you either. Want a car with a name rather than letters and numbers. Look elsewhere because Acura will not be going back to that naming convention and will DEFINITELY not be bringing back the "Legend" name. Why that name matters so much to people is beyond me.
If those things I just mentioned are what you really need to be happy (excluding the naming convention issue) may I suggest a look at the M series BMW, the S series Audi, AMG series Mercedes, or even maybe the F series Lexus. Again, Acura makes NOTHING comparable and NEVER did. Of course you'll pay through the nose for those cars but if you are truly a car enthusiast and not just a whinning wanna be enthusiast who likes to complain about things, then you won't mind the extra cost. If you just want a step up from an Acura, consider looking at an Infiniti or Lexus. They make rear wheel drive cars and have v8 options. They are right there now ready for the picking. No need to beat your head against a wall complaining or writing on bulletin boards wishing it were so. They have them right now!
Of course I'm being sarcastic, but I'm half serious about the "trance" many seem to be in. I'm sincerly confused. This isn't a weird ugly uncle that you are forced to deal with and see on holidays. If you don't like what Acura offers just leave and don't look back. Personally, I am seriously considering a G37S convertible and they are in the low $50's. I've test driven them. The maxed out ones are upscale and offer nice tech and performance for the money. A comparable 335 convertible is $10k more. The G37 will probably be my next car now that all my girls have their own cars and I don't need this sedan anymore for shuttling people around. Don't get me wrong. This RL was a great car, but it was my first sedan and definitely my last. Since Acura deosn't seem interested in coupes and convertibles, it will probably be bye bye Acura (but without any whining)
08-07-2010, 03:11 PM
#2259
Sorry, I can't agree smarty. I don't believe Nissan had more guts. If you want to put it in those terms, I think they had less guts and retreated. But of course, it has nothing to do with intestinal fortitude. Nissan is a business and they make decisions based on the numbers for their share holders. Lets not forget that. Getting rid of the Q I'm sure was nothing more than a board room decision with a bunch of accountants and business analysts to address shareholder concerns and help shore up their balance sheet.
Remember (or realize) Nissan is and was not in the same situation as Honda. Eventhough both companies have gross sales that are close to each other (approaching $100 billion), Nissan was, and still is, in a much more tentative situation. They are nowhere near as diversified and nowhere near as successful or well run as Honda. Nissan has gambled more and taken on more debt. Nissan has made more mistakes. Nissan doesn't have ASIMO
As a result of that, their "take home pay" from that $100 billion is nothing to be proud of. From a gross income standpoint they are a little less than half as successful as Honda (about $25b versus $12b for last year) and took it on the chin pretty hard during this economic downturn. Nissan ended up LOSING over $2 billion last year while Honda still made over $1 billion in profits last year in this terrible economy. Honda's balance sheet is pretty. Nissan's balance sheet looks more like the front end of the TL.
So in short, Honda can leave the Acura RL where it is for now without Board member disapproval because they CAN. It's not losing them money. All the R&D and all the tooling is behind them. With that base covered it seems like a no brainer to let it continue. It adds another option for customers walking into a showroom and at least we know a couple hundred people a month appreciate that. It helps keep the "seat warm" for the next gen sedan to sit above the TL eventhough the current RL doesn't fit consistently in size with the current TSX and TL. I've heard no convincing BUSINESS argument why Acura should stop selling it without having a replacement. You lose momentum in that segment that's hard to get back. Look what happened to the NSX. Shouldn't have ended it until they had the replacement ready.
Remember (or realize) Nissan is and was not in the same situation as Honda. Eventhough both companies have gross sales that are close to each other (approaching $100 billion), Nissan was, and still is, in a much more tentative situation. They are nowhere near as diversified and nowhere near as successful or well run as Honda. Nissan has gambled more and taken on more debt. Nissan has made more mistakes. Nissan doesn't have ASIMO
As a result of that, their "take home pay" from that $100 billion is nothing to be proud of. From a gross income standpoint they are a little less than half as successful as Honda (about $25b versus $12b for last year) and took it on the chin pretty hard during this economic downturn. Nissan ended up LOSING over $2 billion last year while Honda still made over $1 billion in profits last year in this terrible economy. Honda's balance sheet is pretty. Nissan's balance sheet looks more like the front end of the TL.
So in short, Honda can leave the Acura RL where it is for now without Board member disapproval because they CAN. It's not losing them money. All the R&D and all the tooling is behind them. With that base covered it seems like a no brainer to let it continue. It adds another option for customers walking into a showroom and at least we know a couple hundred people a month appreciate that. It helps keep the "seat warm" for the next gen sedan to sit above the TL eventhough the current RL doesn't fit consistently in size with the current TSX and TL. I've heard no convincing BUSINESS argument why Acura should stop selling it without having a replacement. You lose momentum in that segment that's hard to get back. Look what happened to the NSX. Shouldn't have ended it until they had the replacement ready.
Yeah, it makes great financial sense to keep the RL exactly like it is right now selling less than 200 units a month and making Acura look like a disgrace b/c their flagship is joke. Keep sipping the Honda kool-aid and believing they aren't losing money on the RL. I got a great laugh reading that statement.
Keep patting Acura and Honda on the back. I see the TL is still selling poorly, actually losing July Sales last month compared to July 2009, while the other Acura models had sale increases. They need that 4.5G TL MMC update badly!
08-07-2010, 03:31 PM
#2260
You're kidding right, Acura a lost brand? How so? Oh that's right, you just sited one reason; because they decided to use letters to name their vehicles instead of sticking with names. No matter that everyone who is a global brand does it that way now to make names transferrable between different languages. It's smart for BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, and all the rest to do it that way but Acura leaders are morons for "following" them.
I suppose you can believe and say what you want. I won't suggest you get banned from Acurazine, but the inconvenient truth for that argument is;
1) Sales are up more than most others this year
2) Three of their six cars hold the top three spot in their luxury/near luxury segment
3) they have a significantly higher brand recognition and image than Infiniti based on a recent industry ranking that was just posted on this very sight about 2 weeks ago.
I'm worried you have been brainwashed my friend listening to all the perpectual whiners on here that are frustrated because Acura isn't what they want it to be. It's like they all feed off each other and have convinced themselves that Acura is some terrible loser brand and Honda is led by a bunch of monkeys.
As far as "guts". Those weren't my words. I was responding to smart666's reference. I woundn't refer to either company in those terms. It has nothing to do with guts. They are making purely business strategy decisions to make money and it happens not to align with what many people on here want to see. But that's one of the things that confuses me so much. Maybe someone can explain it to me. Truth is, Acura is NOT a car enthusiasts brand. I don't even know why people who are interested in horsepower and driving dynamics would even buy an Acura. That's not their market and never was. It's like people are faulting Acura for being something they never were. Aside from the NSX they never made anything that I thought was exciting. In fact, prior to this last strategy shift a few years ago, I'd say Acura's were just little shit box Honda's with leather. Recently they are starting to become a bit more but not much and are still basically upscaled Hondas. But I don't say that like it's a bad thing. Honda's are great cars if that's what you are looking for. No offense to anyone who owns a Honda or a Acura.
I'm talking from a corporation perspective not a car brand. Nissan is just a car company. Honda is more than that and have done a lot to diversify and stay diversified.
So here's my summary of true reality according to Mike. Read it to yourselves a few times to try and break out of the trance many seem to be in:
Honda is a conservative car company that makes a near luxury brand called Acura. The cars are NOT for people who are looking for a car that will drift well on track day this weekend. Also, if you are looking for advanced drive trains or v8's, Acura is not for you and probably never will be. Want head snapping torque? Nope Acura's not for you either. Want a car with a name rather than letters and numbers. Look elsewhere because Acura will not be going back to that naming convention and will DEFINITELY not be bringing back the "Legend" name. Why that name matters so much to people is beyond me.
If those things I just mentioned are what you really need to be happy (excluding the naming convention issue) may I suggest a look at the M series BMW, the S series Audi, AMG series Mercedes, or even maybe the F series Lexus. Again, Acura makes NOTHING comparable and NEVER did. Of course you'll pay through the nose for those cars but if you are truly a car enthusiast and not just a whinning wanna be enthusiast who likes to complain about things, then you won't mind the extra cost. If you just want a step up from an Acura, consider looking at an Infiniti or Lexus. They make rear wheel drive cars and have v8 options. They are right there now ready for the picking. No need to beat your head against a wall complaining or writing on bulletin boards wishing it were so. They have them right now!
Of course I'm being sarcastic, but I'm half serious about the "trance" many seem to be in. I'm sincerly confused. This isn't a weird ugly uncle that you are forced to deal with and see on holidays. If you don't like what Acura offers just leave and don't look back. Personally, I am seriously considering a G37S convertible and they are in the low $50's. I've test driven them. The maxed out ones are upscale and offer nice tech and performance for the money. A comparable 335 convertible is $10k more. The G37 will probably be my next car now that all my girls have their own cars and I don't need this sedan anymore for shuttling people around. Don't get me wrong. This RL was a great car, but it was my first sedan and definitely my last. Since Acura deosn't seem interested in coupes and convertibles, it will probably be bye bye Acura (but without any whining)
I suppose you can believe and say what you want. I won't suggest you get banned from Acurazine
, but the inconvenient truth for that argument is; 1) Sales are up more than most others this year
2) Three of their six cars hold the top three spot in their luxury/near luxury segment
3) they have a significantly higher brand recognition and image than Infiniti based on a recent industry ranking that was just posted on this very sight about 2 weeks ago.
I'm worried you have been brainwashed my friend listening to all the perpectual whiners on here that are frustrated because Acura isn't what they want it to be. It's like they all feed off each other and have convinced themselves that Acura is some terrible loser brand and Honda is led by a bunch of monkeys.
As far as "guts". Those weren't my words. I was responding to smart666's reference. I woundn't refer to either company in those terms. It has nothing to do with guts. They are making purely business strategy decisions to make money and it happens not to align with what many people on here want to see. But that's one of the things that confuses me so much. Maybe someone can explain it to me. Truth is, Acura is NOT a car enthusiasts brand. I don't even know why people who are interested in horsepower and driving dynamics would even buy an Acura. That's not their market and never was. It's like people are faulting Acura for being something they never were. Aside from the NSX they never made anything that I thought was exciting. In fact, prior to this last strategy shift a few years ago, I'd say Acura's were just little shit box Honda's with leather. Recently they are starting to become a bit more but not much and are still basically upscaled Hondas. But I don't say that like it's a bad thing. Honda's are great cars if that's what you are looking for. No offense to anyone who owns a Honda or a Acura.
I'm talking from a corporation perspective not a car brand. Nissan is just a car company. Honda is more than that and have done a lot to diversify and stay diversified.
So here's my summary of true reality according to Mike.
Read it to yourselves a few times to try and break out of the trance many seem to be in: Honda is a conservative car company that makes a near luxury brand called Acura. The cars are NOT for people who are looking for a car that will drift well on track day this weekend. Also, if you are looking for advanced drive trains or v8's, Acura is not for you and probably never will be. Want head snapping torque? Nope Acura's not for you either. Want a car with a name rather than letters and numbers. Look elsewhere because Acura will not be going back to that naming convention and will DEFINITELY not be bringing back the "Legend" name. Why that name matters so much to people is beyond me.
If those things I just mentioned are what you really need to be happy (excluding the naming convention issue) may I suggest a look at the M series BMW, the S series Audi, AMG series Mercedes, or even maybe the F series Lexus. Again, Acura makes NOTHING comparable and NEVER did. Of course you'll pay through the nose for those cars but if you are truly a car enthusiast and not just a whinning wanna be enthusiast who likes to complain about things, then you won't mind the extra cost. If you just want a step up from an Acura, consider looking at an Infiniti or Lexus. They make rear wheel drive cars and have v8 options. They are right there now ready for the picking. No need to beat your head against a wall complaining or writing on bulletin boards wishing it were so. They have them right now!
Of course I'm being sarcastic, but I'm half serious about the "trance" many seem to be in. I'm sincerly confused. This isn't a weird ugly uncle that you are forced to deal with and see on holidays. If you don't like what Acura offers just leave and don't look back. Personally, I am seriously considering a G37S convertible and they are in the low $50's. I've test driven them. The maxed out ones are upscale and offer nice tech and performance for the money. A comparable 335 convertible is $10k more. The G37 will probably be my next car now that all my girls have their own cars and I don't need this sedan anymore for shuttling people around. Don't get me wrong. This RL was a great car, but it was my first sedan and definitely my last. Since Acura deosn't seem interested in coupes and convertibles, it will probably be bye bye Acura (but without any whining)
What you don't seem to understand is, Acura brass have given inconsistent, wishywashy statements of what Acura is trying to do and change, and what they are going to compete and focus on for the future. One minute, you have Acura brass saying they are going to revamp and focus on becoming a tier 1 company to compete with BMW, MB, and Lexus, and then they say they aren't going to do that, and step back and focus on "smart luxury" what ever the hell that means, and then you hear them say that they are going to focus on fuel economy and hybrids for the future.
Each of those statements are inconsistent between each other. I understand that Acura is in the process of changing their line-up but there current styling direction/choice has left a good majority of the automotive community, scratching their heads.
Sales are better for all the manufacturers, compared to last year, considering last year was one of the worst years for automotive sales in a long time. The only thing that is keeping Acura going is sales of the TSX and MDX. If it were not for those two models, Acura would be in serious trouble.
Nissan does have more GUTS then Honda does in making and taking chances on change. Oh wow, Honda is so much more diversified b/c they sell motorcycles, boats, etc. C-mon give me a break. Most people don't get any of that crap, except when they get a mid life crisis. I'll I'm talking about is vehicles here, nothing else.
Nissan/Infiniti were in terrible terrible shape back in 2002 and have done 10x more than Acura has done in just 8 short years to really turn their companies around. You can say all you want about Infiniti's motives for getting rid of the Q but at least they made a decision on a model that was selling piss poor, can't say the same for Acura on the RL.
Just remember, Infiniti has lower sales then Acura, but they do not have a entry level model to compete with the TSX and IS, which by the beginning of next year, they will, with the G25 and if its market right, it should sell well and there sales will increase.
I didn't say they had to get rid of it, but they need to stop dancing around and redesign it and make it a true flagship for Acura that actually competitive with the other luxury flagships.
08-07-2010, 03:31 PM
#2261
Go Big Blue!
Well as you already would know, I don't agree with anything you said but you are of course in titled to your opinion.
Yeah, it makes great financial sense to keep the RL exactly like it is right now selling less than 200 units a month and making Acura look like a disgrace b/c their flagship is joke. Keep sipping the Honda kool-aid and believing they aren't losing money on the RL. I got a great laugh reading that statement.
Keep patting Acura and Honda on the back. I see the TL is still selling poorly, actually losing July Sales last month compared to July 2009, while the other Acura models had sale increases. They need that 4.5G TL MMC update badly!
Yeah, it makes great financial sense to keep the RL exactly like it is right now selling less than 200 units a month and making Acura look like a disgrace b/c their flagship is joke. Keep sipping the Honda kool-aid and believing they aren't losing money on the RL. I got a great laugh reading that statement.
Keep patting Acura and Honda on the back. I see the TL is still selling poorly, actually losing July Sales last month compared to July 2009, while the other Acura models had sale increases. They need that 4.5G TL MMC update badly!
By the way, I sip no ones Kool Aid. I am no ones cheerleader or fanboy. That's ironically what I think is so weird with many on here. People talk so passionately as if they are taking it personal that Acura isn't going in the direction they want instead of just going and buying something else. You sounded that way again just now. Using words like 'disgrace' and their flagship is a 'joke'. Do you really think the typical car buyer is thinking that when they go in to buy an MDX, TL, etc? Are they saying; my God. THIS is your flagship? I'm sorry but I have to reconsider buying your MDX if that's what you are selling as your flagship sedan. Come on guy. Maybe you need to to stop and rethink what you are saying, not me.
08-07-2010, 03:38 PM
#2262
I guess I'm not as smart as everyone else because, yes, I think the idiotic notion that it's best to keep the RL where it is and keep selling it until they can complete the sedan linup upgrade and refresh the RL to be bigger and more advanced.
By the way, I sip no ones Kool Aid. I am no ones cheerleader or fanboy. That's ironically what I think is so weird with many on here. People talk so passionately as if they are taking it personal that Acura isn't going in the direction they want instead of just going and buying something else. You sounded that way again just now. Using words like 'disgrace' and their flagship is a 'joke'. Do you really think the typical car buyer is thinking that when they go in to buy an MDX, TL, etc? Are they saying; my God. THIS is your flagship? I'm sorry but I have to reconsider buying your MDX if that's what you are selling as your flagship sedan. Come on guy. Maybe you need to to stop and rethink what you are saying, not me.
By the way, I sip no ones Kool Aid. I am no ones cheerleader or fanboy. That's ironically what I think is so weird with many on here. People talk so passionately as if they are taking it personal that Acura isn't going in the direction they want instead of just going and buying something else. You sounded that way again just now. Using words like 'disgrace' and their flagship is a 'joke'. Do you really think the typical car buyer is thinking that when they go in to buy an MDX, TL, etc? Are they saying; my God. THIS is your flagship? I'm sorry but I have to reconsider buying your MDX if that's what you are selling as your flagship sedan. Come on guy. Maybe you need to to stop and rethink what you are saying, not me.
All I originally did was answer your question about the Q and gave my opinion. That is all it is, an opinion. Acura is its own business, they can do what ever they want to their company, just like Infiniti, BMW, etc can do what ever they want to do to change their companies as well. Just b/c I don't agree with it, doesn't mean I'm not entitled to giving my opinion on not liking their direction/focus, its a free speech forum.
P.S. - Even though it basically has assumed its role, the TL technically is not their flagship, the RL is, but most of the time, my local Acura dealers either have no RLs on the lot, or maybe 1-3 at a time so most probably don't even know that the RL is their flagship sedan.
I don't think that the MDX is being second guessed. As I said before, that is a really nice well selling model for Acura and represents their luxury SUV flagship well. The only models in the red right now for Acura in the sales area is the RL and TL. Its funny, maybe its just a stigma against the models that end with the letter L. Notice how the Acura models that are in the positive for sales thus far, all end in DX (RDX, MDX, TSX, ZDX), lol.
Last edited by smarty666; 08-07-2010 at 03:43 PM.
08-07-2010, 03:39 PM
#2263
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[quote=SpicyMikey;12239502]
kidding right, Acura a lost brand? How so? Oh that's right, you just sited one reason; because they decided to use letters to name their vehicles instead of sticking with names. No matter that everyone who is a global brand does it that way now to make names transferrable between different languages. It's smart for BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, and all the rest to do it that way but Acura leaders are morons for "following" them.
That's bull. How did you gather that from my post? I said that was something to do with Acura having less guts.
Re-read!
Good, because I haven't heard a soul call for my banning, unlike a certain someone else. Snide remark fail, but you tried. 
Most segments and cars have sales that are on the rise this year, even dated cars, so that argument in fact DOESN'T work.
Their SUVs are up, which as I've said time and again are what Acura has been getting right.
The TSX is up, the TL is not, the RL is not. The TL is almost their newest car and sales are sliding from numbers that were already well down.
I think anyone who's saying Acura's on track is pretty "brainwashed". But hey, who am I to say?
P.S. I never said Infiniti had better recognition. I was talking about brand persona.
I'm extremely offended.
kidding right, Acura a lost brand? How so? Oh that's right, you just sited one reason; because they decided to use letters to name their vehicles instead of sticking with names. No matter that everyone who is a global brand does it that way now to make names transferrable between different languages. It's smart for BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, and all the rest to do it that way but Acura leaders are morons for "following" them.
That's bull. How did you gather that from my post? I said that was something to do with Acura having less guts.
Re-read!
I suppose you can believe and say what you want. I won't suggest you get banned from Acurazine , but the inconvenient truth for that argument is;
1) Sales are up more than most others this year
2) Three of their six cars hold the top three spot in their luxury/near luxury segment
3) they have a significantly higher brand recognition and image than Infiniti based on a recent industry ranking that was just posted on this very sight about 2 weeks ago.
I'm worried you have been brainwashed my friend listening to all the perpectual whiners on here that are frustrated because Acura isn't what they want it to be. It's like they all feed off each other and have convinced themselves that Acura is some terrible loser brand and Honda is led by a bunch of monkeys.
, but the inconvenient truth for that argument is; 1) Sales are up more than most others this year
2) Three of their six cars hold the top three spot in their luxury/near luxury segment
3) they have a significantly higher brand recognition and image than Infiniti based on a recent industry ranking that was just posted on this very sight about 2 weeks ago.
I'm worried you have been brainwashed my friend listening to all the perpectual whiners on here that are frustrated because Acura isn't what they want it to be. It's like they all feed off each other and have convinced themselves that Acura is some terrible loser brand and Honda is led by a bunch of monkeys.
Most segments and cars have sales that are on the rise this year, even dated cars, so that argument in fact DOESN'T work.
Their SUVs are up, which as I've said time and again are what Acura has been getting right.
The TSX is up, the TL is not, the RL is not. The TL is almost their newest car and sales are sliding from numbers that were already well down.
I think anyone who's saying Acura's on track is pretty "brainwashed". But hey, who am I to say?
P.S. I never said Infiniti had better recognition. I was talking about brand persona.
As far as "guts". Those weren't my words. I was responding to smart666's reference. I woundn't refer to either company in those terms. It has nothing to do with guts. They are making purely business strategy decisions to make money and it happens not to align with what many people on here want to see. But that's one of the things that confuses me so much. Maybe someone can explain it to me. Truth is, Acura is NOT a car enthusiasts brand. I don't even know why people who are interested in horsepower and driving dynamics would even buy an Acura. That's not their market and never was. It's like people are faulting Acura for being something they never were. Aside from the NSX they never made anything that I thought was exciting. In fact, prior to this last strategy shift a few years ago, I'd say Acura's were just little shit box Honda's with leather. Recently they are starting to become a bit more but not much and are still basically upscaled Hondas. But I don't say that like it's a bad thing. Honda's are great cars if that's what you are looking for. No offense to anyone who owns a Honda or a Acura.
08-07-2010, 03:42 PM
#2264
Go Big Blue!
I'm not trying to state that Acura is some terrible brand, I just wish they were able to change and be more focus on their direction for the future.
What you don't seem to understand is, Acura brass have given inconsistent, wishywashy statements of what Acura is trying to do and change, and what they are going to compete and focus on for the future. One minute, you have Acura brass saying they are going to revamp and focus on becoming a tier 1 company to compete with BMW, MB, and Lexus, and then they say they aren't going to do that, and step back and focus on "smart luxury" what ever the hell that means, and then you hear them say that they are going to focus on fuel economy and hybrids for the future.
What you don't seem to understand is, Acura brass have given inconsistent, wishywashy statements of what Acura is trying to do and change, and what they are going to compete and focus on for the future. One minute, you have Acura brass saying they are going to revamp and focus on becoming a tier 1 company to compete with BMW, MB, and Lexus, and then they say they aren't going to do that, and step back and focus on "smart luxury" what ever the hell that means, and then you hear them say that they are going to focus on fuel economy and hybrids for the future.
08-07-2010, 03:56 PM
#2265
Go Big Blue!
Sounded like you were suggesting that changing their naming convention was one of the sources of failure for Acura. I think it's a stupid argument. Always did. Many have said it, not just you. I was just responding to that.
Sorry not sure if you were serious. If so, get thicker skin. Don't know what to tell you.
08-07-2010, 04:02 PM
#2266
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You said: "Acura had less guts to me. Instead of going for their already successful lineup, they renamed their vehicles with two or three letters. They chased the Lexus LS and things haven't been the same since."
Sounded like you were suggesting that changing their naming convention was one of the sources of failure for Acura. I think it's a stupid argument. Always did. Many have said it, not just you. I was just responding to that.
Sounded like you were suggesting that changing their naming convention was one of the sources of failure for Acura. I think it's a stupid argument. Always did. Many have said it, not just you. I was just responding to that.
I assume this matter is finished, then.
You really couldn't tell? *headache*
08-07-2010, 04:16 PM
#2267
Go Big Blue!
^^ Man you are confusing me now. No I can't tell.
It was a fun distraction today while I worked on a Saturday but lets stop talking to each other and hoging up the air waves because I don't think we understand each other. No ones fault. Truce.
It was a fun distraction today while I worked on a Saturday but lets stop talking to each other and hoging up the air waves because I don't think we understand each other. No ones fault. Truce.
08-07-2010, 04:21 PM
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But I loooooove talking to you so much. Actually I simply enjoy talking about cars period.
08-07-2010, 04:59 PM
#2269
Race Director
gh:
So in short, Honda can leave the Acura RL where it is for now without Board member disapproval because they CAN. It's not losing them money. All the R&D and all the tooling is behind them. I've heard no convincing BUSINESS argument why Acura should stop selling it without having a replacement. You lose momentum in that segment that's hard to get back. Look what happened to the NSX. Shouldn't have ended it until they had the replacement ready.
So in short, Honda can leave the Acura RL where it is for now without Board member disapproval because they CAN. It's not losing them money. All the R&D and all the tooling is behind them. I've heard no convincing BUSINESS argument why Acura should stop selling it without having a replacement. You lose momentum in that segment that's hard to get back. Look what happened to the NSX. Shouldn't have ended it until they had the replacement ready.
The question for Honda is whether those loses are worth as you mention "momentum in the segment". I think that Honda should follow the Infiniti model (kill the flagship and move the other sedans upmarket). The problem for Honda is that the current TL won't work for that and it can only be moved so much - unlike the M for Infiniti. As we have learned from VW, you can't just plop a $70K car (Phaeton) in the market and succeed. It has to be done over the long haul and I think it is working for Infiniti (they are approaching selling $60K sedans - optioned M56).
Honda may be able to live in its "tweener" luxury status for sedans and make money but only with the right mix of models. With the looming EPA rules in 2016 they need to start making models with more diff in size - with some thing like the size of TL being the biggest car. The problem for Honda short term is that the downturn and competition (and new boss) got in the way of their plans and they are trying to figure out which way to go. And even after they decide what to do it takes 2-3 years to execute and come up with some results. It's a good thing Acura can lean on its SUV sales other wise they'd be looking up at Audi and Infiniti from the bottom of the luxury sales charts.
08-07-2010, 05:12 PM
#2270
Go Big Blue!
Seeing my words quoted at the top i realize I actually mistyped when I wrote that and meant to say "not losing them much money" Not trying to back peddle but I can't argue with a straight face that they are making money on that car. But I also don't think it's a "money pit". It's basically reused body parts and it's sold in Europe, Australia, Middle East, etc. so they sell more than 200 a month. Unlike the NSX it doesn't have a unique MR drive and alluminum parts, etc. The profit margin, or lack of it, is not a motivating factor to kill it now that its there and they have nothing yet to replace it. That was the point I was making I believe.
08-07-2010, 05:39 PM
#2271
That point I can agree. They are definitely confusing people that are paying attention to such messages by sending mixed signals. I think it's more of a philosphical struggle between AHC and HMC. I don't think they are truly confused. The two leadership groups seem to want to go in two different directions. Not that either direction is bad, but just pick one and don't send mixed messages. I couldn't agree more with that argument.
08-07-2010, 05:52 PM
#2272
Go Big Blue!
That shift has been confusing I think to those who watch such things closely. Wouldn't you agree? I know I found it strange they would make such significant statements about going "tier 1" then "Smart Luxury", v8, then no v8, etc. Although I'm not sure if they actually ever said they would be doing a v8. I know I read it in the car mags, but can't remember if that was an extrapolation from the "Tier 1" statement or it was a quote from Acura.
Regardless, I don't think it matters much to their sales of other models or their image. I think that was the ipoint I was originally making when it got challenged. The average car buyer is not paying attention to such things. It has little or no negative affect on their image or their sales. it's negative in places like Acurazine, etc. because of the hyperattention I believe. But it's not a blow to Acura's image to anyone but those who care (and thats very few). For the average buyer, it's just another car on the show room floor that they will scratch from their list when they compare it to some fresher alternatives. At the same time, having the RL on the floor may have gotten them in the store and eventually caused them to cross shop the TL and buy it. I'm sure that's happened to you along the lines. I mean, I can't buy into the idea that having a slow seller on the floor hurts anything (except profits potential)
Regardless, I don't think it matters much to their sales of other models or their image. I think that was the ipoint I was originally making when it got challenged. The average car buyer is not paying attention to such things. It has little or no negative affect on their image or their sales. it's negative in places like Acurazine, etc. because of the hyperattention I believe. But it's not a blow to Acura's image to anyone but those who care (and thats very few). For the average buyer, it's just another car on the show room floor that they will scratch from their list when they compare it to some fresher alternatives. At the same time, having the RL on the floor may have gotten them in the store and eventually caused them to cross shop the TL and buy it. I'm sure that's happened to you along the lines. I mean, I can't buy into the idea that having a slow seller on the floor hurts anything (except profits potential)
08-07-2010, 06:09 PM
#2273
That shift has been confusing I think to those who watch such things closely. Wouldn't you agree? I know I found it strange they would make such significant statements about going "tier 1" then "Smart Luxury", v8, then no v8, etc. Although I'm not sure if they actually ever said they would be doing a v8. I know I read it in the car mags, but can't remember if that was an extrapolation from the "Tier 1" statement or it was a quote from Acura.
For the average buyer, it's just another car on the show room floor that they will scratch from their list when they compare it to some fresher alternatives. At the same time, having the RL on the floor may have gotten them in the store and eventually caused them to cross shop the TL and buy it. I'm sure that's happened to you along the lines. I mean, I can't buy into the idea that having a slow seller on the floor hurts anything (except profits potential)
For the average buyer, it's just another car on the show room floor that they will scratch from their list when they compare it to some fresher alternatives. At the same time, having the RL on the floor may have gotten them in the store and eventually caused them to cross shop the TL and buy it. I'm sure that's happened to you along the lines. I mean, I can't buy into the idea that having a slow seller on the floor hurts anything (except profits potential)
From my perspective, the RL in its current form is more of an inconvenience if anything. We don't really have enough inventory to make anybody happy. In the end, we just order Black/Black, White/Black and Silver/Black. I have several customers who are RL leasees who move from car to car, and these wouldn't move into the TL for various reasons. One almost moved to the ZDX, but in the end, went with another RL.
08-07-2010, 06:15 PM
#2274
Go Big Blue!
I agree. I don't think it's been confusing to the customer at all. I've been kind of holding the line on that argument all along. It just doesn't matter to the average customer and no one really thinks any less of the brand because of it.
Maybe "confusing" was the wrong word. "Frustrating" may be better. For some people who follow or have some emotional investment in this brand, its got to be a disappointment and frustrating they have had a few false starts on direction in the last few years.
Maybe "confusing" was the wrong word. "Frustrating" may be better. For some people who follow or have some emotional investment in this brand, its got to be a disappointment and frustrating they have had a few false starts on direction in the last few years.
08-07-2010, 06:21 PM
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The way I see it, Honda changed direction when they had the successful Integra and RL and decided that they needed to challenge the Lexus LS400 and copy Lexus' alphanumeric strategy that was of course like the Europeans.
To me that was switch #1, going from Acura's then-present direction and chasing Lexus at a discount....who was chasing Mercedes.
Then we had the whole RWD/V8/Tier 1 spiel in the mid-late 00s, where Acura realized they needed more than NA V6s and jazzed up Honda platforms to make Acura into something.
Change #2, then.
Which brings us to today, where Acura is focusing heavily on styling, SH-AWD, and safety ratings for their ADVANCE marketing schtick. They're now "sensible luxury", and that cannot mean extravagent boats or V8 engines or RWD platforms.
Change #3.
You could debate this, no doubt. Some would say there's less changes, some more. There's no "right answer". But regardless, a luxury brand shouldn't be reinventing itself that many times on the luxury scale and it's pretty clear Honda has changed time and again where they want to position Acura. First it was fancy, sporty Hondas (1986-1995), then luxurious and bargain priced Lexus followers (1996-early-00s), then to absolute prestige and luxury (mid-00s-late-00s), to today's return to the theory of value and sensible luxury. Lexus has never reinvented themselves, or maybe if you consider Lexus' expansion to less value than before and even more substance. BMW doesn't. MB doesn't. Jaguar doesn't. Etc.
To me that was switch #1, going from Acura's then-present direction and chasing Lexus at a discount....who was chasing Mercedes.
Then we had the whole RWD/V8/Tier 1 spiel in the mid-late 00s, where Acura realized they needed more than NA V6s and jazzed up Honda platforms to make Acura into something.
Change #2, then.
Which brings us to today, where Acura is focusing heavily on styling, SH-AWD, and safety ratings for their ADVANCE marketing schtick. They're now "sensible luxury", and that cannot mean extravagent boats or V8 engines or RWD platforms.
Change #3.
You could debate this, no doubt. Some would say there's less changes, some more. There's no "right answer". But regardless, a luxury brand shouldn't be reinventing itself that many times on the luxury scale and it's pretty clear Honda has changed time and again where they want to position Acura. First it was fancy, sporty Hondas (1986-1995), then luxurious and bargain priced Lexus followers (1996-early-00s), then to absolute prestige and luxury (mid-00s-late-00s), to today's return to the theory of value and sensible luxury. Lexus has never reinvented themselves, or maybe if you consider Lexus' expansion to less value than before and even more substance. BMW doesn't. MB doesn't. Jaguar doesn't. Etc.
08-07-2010, 06:22 PM
#2276
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I agree. I don't think it's been confusing to the customer at all. I've been kind of holding the line on that argument all along. It just doesn't matter to the average customer and no one really thinks any less of the brand because of it.
Maybe "confusing" was the wrong word. "Frustrating" may be better. For some people who follow or have some emotional investment in this brand, its got to be a disappointment and frustrating they have had a few false starts on direction in the last few years.
Maybe "confusing" was the wrong word. "Frustrating" may be better. For some people who follow or have some emotional investment in this brand, its got to be a disappointment and frustrating they have had a few false starts on direction in the last few years.
Despite their shifts, Acura has remained pretty much where they always have.
08-07-2010, 06:25 PM
#2277
However, I'd still suggest that there has been only one change in direction. Not multiple as some suggest when they use flip flop or wishy washy. (naturally IMO)
08-07-2010, 07:28 PM
#2278
Go Big Blue!
However, I'll yield to your view on the flip-flopping since you are most in tune with things as a salesman. Also, I think a some of this so called flip flopping may have been aggrevated to some degree by the car mags and blogs. I'm not sure Acura issued official statements about all these various directional changes many talk about. Like the latest rumor about the RL being canceled. Acura never said that but it was all over the blogisphere. However, unlike other rumors, Acura didn't let that one fester. If nothing else, maybe Acura is guilty of creating this message vacuum. Like politics, if you don't set and control the message, others will do it for you. And with the online world we have now, things spread faster than ever.
08-07-2010, 08:53 PM
#2279
Senior Moderator
Can we get back to the RL here?
I think Acura knows exactly where it wants to go--upmarket. I think they did it a smart way. They concentrated on their bread and butter models first. Now they need to give the RL some love. What kind of love is what we are debating here.
I think Honda should just give Americans what they want. V8/RWD love.
However, I think we will get some kind of hybrid thingie.
For those who doubt 400 hp/42 mpg, it's right on Honda's website:
http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...nit/index.html
....and they presented this in 2001. We know that there was an IMA drivetrain in the Accord back in the mid-oughts that failed to sell well, and of course the teeny 4-banger IMA setup of the Insight. If the concept presented came to reality, and it were presented in a pleasant-looking package, and it got good marketing....I suppose it could sell.
I still want V8/RWD, though. And a sport suspension as an option.
I think Acura knows exactly where it wants to go--upmarket. I think they did it a smart way. They concentrated on their bread and butter models first. Now they need to give the RL some love. What kind of love is what we are debating here.
I think Honda should just give Americans what they want. V8/RWD love.
However, I think we will get some kind of hybrid thingie.
For those who doubt 400 hp/42 mpg, it's right on Honda's website:
http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...nit/index.html
....and they presented this in 2001. We know that there was an IMA drivetrain in the Accord back in the mid-oughts that failed to sell well, and of course the teeny 4-banger IMA setup of the
Insight. If the concept presented came to reality, and it were presented in a pleasant-looking package, and it got good marketing....I suppose it could sell.I still want V8/RWD, though. And a sport suspension as an option.
08-07-2010, 09:00 PM
#2280
^ I think it would be interesting if Acura offered the next RL in a hybrid and RWD/V8 option. This way, they have the best of both worlds. If people have the choice, they can see how many people buy each kind, if the V8 version doesn't work they can get rid of it, if not, they can keep it.
If they are every going to try V8/RWD they are going to have to pick at least one model to offer it on and see for awhile how well it sells. If they see it sold well they could expand on that later on down the road.
If they are every going to try V8/RWD they are going to have to pick at least one model to offer it on and see for awhile how well it sells. If they see it sold well they could expand on that later on down the road.