Acura: RLX News
08-07-2010, 09:57 PM
#2281
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Since Honda doesn't have a V8 currently in development, it would take at least a few years for them to bring one to market. By that time, the new CAFE rules nearly be in effect, reducing the viability of a V8. At this point, it looks like Honda missed the boat on the V8 and a V6/hybrid is a much more likely approach for generating 350-400 hp. I think a V8 appearing in the next RL is about as likely as I am to win the lottery.
08-07-2010, 10:20 PM
#2282
Since Honda doesn't have a V8 currently in development, it would take at least a few years for them to bring one to market. By that time, the new CAFE rules nearly be in effect, reducing the viability of a V8. At this point, it looks like Honda missed the boat on the V8 and a V6/hybrid is a much more likely approach for generating 350-400 hp. I think a V8 appearing in the next RL is about as likely as I am to win the lottery.
I think eventually, all the companies will only offer V8 options in some of their sport coupes, roadsters, supercars, and things of that nature, not their sedans.
Even if Acura doesn't do something with a V8, I think they are only hurting themselves by not at least trying a model with RWD. Like I said earlier, they can try it out in one model, see how it sells and then down the road make it an option on other models.
08-07-2010, 11:40 PM
#2283
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Can we get back to the RL here?
I think Acura knows exactly where it wants to go--upmarket. I think they did it a smart way. They concentrated on their bread and butter models first. Now they need to give the RL some love. What kind of love is what we are debating here.
I think Honda should just give Americans what they want. V8/RWD love.
However, I think we will get some kind of hybrid thingie.
For those who doubt 400 hp/42 mpg, it's right on Honda's website:
http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/auto/DUALNOTE/powerunit/index.html
....and they presented this in 2001. We know that there was an IMA drivetrain in the Accord back in the mid-oughts that failed to sell well, and of course the teeny 4-banger IMA setup of the
Insight. If the concept presented came to reality, and it were presented in a pleasant-looking package, and it got good marketing....I suppose it could sell.
I still want V8/RWD, though. And a sport suspension as an option.
I think Acura knows exactly where it wants to go--upmarket. I think they did it a smart way. They concentrated on their bread and butter models first. Now they need to give the RL some love. What kind of love is what we are debating here.
I think Honda should just give Americans what they want. V8/RWD love.
However, I think we will get some kind of hybrid thingie.
For those who doubt 400 hp/42 mpg, it's right on Honda's website:
http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/auto/DUALNOTE/powerunit/index.html
....and they presented this in 2001. We know that there was an IMA drivetrain in the Accord back in the mid-oughts that failed to sell well, and of course the teeny 4-banger IMA setup of the
Insight. If the concept presented came to reality, and it were presented in a pleasant-looking package, and it got good marketing....I suppose it could sell.I still want V8/RWD, though. And a sport suspension as an option.
Secondly, that was a front drive sportscar type of thing, not a 4000+ pound luxury sedan.
So I remain completely doubtful of 400 horsepower and 42 mpg, even in a sportscar like that. A dinky little Insight goes 43 mpg with a little FWD body and an I-4-hybrid powerplant. What would possibly make one think that similar mileage could be acheived with over twice the power and a car that would probably weigh over 1000 lbs more with rear or all-wheel drive?
Your Caddy is way too sexy to give up anyways!
08-07-2010, 11:43 PM
#2284
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Personally, I think that win the next 10 years, even some of the luxury companies that offer V8s in their sedans, will stop offering them with the CAFE standards and gas price uncertainty. Even BMW recently has talked about focusing more on fuel efficient I4 and V6s for their models. I never understood the need for a V8 in a sedan personally. I've always found a V6 with enough power was more then enough for my needs and taste, and I tend to drive more aggressively on average, plus the mpg of V8s has always turned me off as well.
I think eventually, all the companies will only offer V8 options in some of their sport coupes, roadsters, supercars, and things of that nature, not their sedans.
Even if Acura doesn't do something with a V8, I think they are only hurting themselves by not at least trying a model with RWD. Like I said earlier, they can try it out in one model, see how it sells and then down the road make it an option on other models.
I think eventually, all the companies will only offer V8 options in some of their sport coupes, roadsters, supercars, and things of that nature, not their sedans.
Even if Acura doesn't do something with a V8, I think they are only hurting themselves by not at least trying a model with RWD. Like I said earlier, they can try it out in one model, see how it sells and then down the road make it an option on other models.
New V8s are proof that they can acheive decent mileage figures. They will remain in sedans for years and years....and years. LOL
And a V8 is great fun in a sedan. There are those who would say to you that a I4 is more than enough, especially when turbocharged. But just like you find the getup of a V6 to be more to your liking, others go further to a V8.
The V8 is not dead!
08-08-2010, 01:11 AM
#2285
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Not by a long shot. It may become more exclusive except for the muscle car variants which will remain "affordable."
The current RLegend is the wrong car for this market. It's a great car made ugly since the MMC. Move the TL to 5 series territory and the RLegend as a true flagship. If they don't offer a small displacement V8, give it a high output V6 hybrid SH-AWD (~375hp 35mpg) and push it to be a technology demonstrator.
Use that powertrain engineering to produce a halo car for Acura or a sporty two door....
The current RLegend is the wrong car for this market. It's a great car made ugly since the MMC. Move the TL to 5 series territory and the RLegend as a true flagship. If they don't offer a small displacement V8, give it a high output V6 hybrid SH-AWD (~375hp 35mpg) and push it to be a technology demonstrator.
Use that powertrain engineering to produce a halo car for Acura or a sporty two door....
08-08-2010, 03:11 AM
#2286
Burning Brakes
I believe BMW/MB/Lexus/Audi offer more engines not just because they improve performance or fuel economy, but also because these engines bring a certain level of prestige. People tend to associate the V8 badge with more expensive cars. That's also why cars have V6 badges as well, to differentiate them from the rest. The same applies to hybrids.
A small displacement V8 would be able to cater to the "badge snobs" as well as performance-minded drivers, considering they typically displace at least 4L, and these days you have 3L+ engines making well over 300 HP. Oh, and did I mention they sound great?
As for hybrids, maybe they wouldn't do much to draw in the sports car crowd, but everyone else can save a little on fuel, or look like they care for the environment. And it would let people see that owning a hybrid does not have to mean sacrificing performance. Look at the Lexus GS hybrid: more powerful than the gas-only model and easier on fuel too.
08-08-2010, 06:27 AM
#2287
Senior Moderator
Hell no! I agree with you. The V8 will never die as long as gasoline is available. It will eventually be available in exotics only, and priced out of the range of mere mortals. This is a MAJOR reason I bought my CTS-V....it is probably the only V8 car I will ever own and I though it would be my last chance to experience such a car.
The V8 is also probably not really dead at Honda. It was in active development for the RL until last year. My thought is that even though Honda said it's dead.....it's probably just shelved until finances allow further development or (we hope) just finishing.
Agree on both points, except that the TL is already in 5-series territory in size. For the RL, a h.o. V6 is most likely, but unless there's a superpowerful variant of the J37 we don't know of, I can't see 375 hp. 
The V8 is also probably not really dead at Honda. It was in active development for the RL until last year. My thought is that even though Honda said it's dead.....it's probably just shelved until finances allow further development or (we hope) just finishing.
The current RLegend is the wrong car for this market. It's a great car made ugly since the MMC. Move the TL to 5 series territory and the RLegend as a true flagship. If they don't offer a small displacement V8, give it a high output V6 hybrid SH-AWD (~375hp 35mpg) and push it to be a technology demonstrator.
08-08-2010, 06:40 AM
#2288
Go Big Blue!
Hope you are right Bob because I think they will definitely need it to offer a competitive full size sedan. However something tells me you better stick with the CTSV. I don't think Acura will go that way now and will probably chose some hybrid solution to get more torque but still meet the new mpg mandates coming.
By the way how is the cts doing? The cts is on my short list now that they have a coupe
By the way how is the cts doing? The cts is on my short list now that they have a coupe
08-08-2010, 06:54 AM
#2289
AZ Community Team
The way I see it, Honda changed direction when they had the successful Integra and RL and decided that they needed to challenge the Lexus LS400 and copy Lexus' alphanumeric strategy that was of course like the Europeans.
To me that was switch #1, going from Acura's then-present direction and chasing Lexus at a discount....who was chasing Mercedes.
Then we had the whole RWD/V8/Tier 1 spiel in the mid-late 00s, where Acura realized they needed more than NA V6s and jazzed up Honda platforms to make Acura into something.
Change #2, then.
Which brings us to today, where Acura is focusing heavily on styling, SH-AWD, and safety ratings for their ADVANCE marketing schtick. They're now "sensible luxury", and that cannot mean extravagent boats or V8 engines or RWD platforms.
Change #3.
You could debate this, no doubt. Some would say there's less changes, some more. There's no "right answer". But regardless, a luxury brand shouldn't be reinventing itself that many times on the luxury scale and it's pretty clear Honda has changed time and again where they want to position Acura. First it was fancy, sporty Hondas (1986-1995), then luxurious and bargain priced Lexus followers (1996-early-00s), then to absolute prestige and luxury (mid-00s-late-00s), to today's return to the theory of value and sensible luxury. Lexus has never reinvented themselves, or maybe if you consider Lexus' expansion to less value than before and even more substance. BMW doesn't. MB doesn't. Jaguar doesn't. Etc.
To me that was switch #1, going from Acura's then-present direction and chasing Lexus at a discount....who was chasing Mercedes.
Then we had the whole RWD/V8/Tier 1 spiel in the mid-late 00s, where Acura realized they needed more than NA V6s and jazzed up Honda platforms to make Acura into something.
Change #2, then.
Which brings us to today, where Acura is focusing heavily on styling, SH-AWD, and safety ratings for their ADVANCE marketing schtick. They're now "sensible luxury", and that cannot mean extravagent boats or V8 engines or RWD platforms.
Change #3.
You could debate this, no doubt. Some would say there's less changes, some more. There's no "right answer". But regardless, a luxury brand shouldn't be reinventing itself that many times on the luxury scale and it's pretty clear Honda has changed time and again where they want to position Acura. First it was fancy, sporty Hondas (1986-1995), then luxurious and bargain priced Lexus followers (1996-early-00s), then to absolute prestige and luxury (mid-00s-late-00s), to today's return to the theory of value and sensible luxury. Lexus has never reinvented themselves, or maybe if you consider Lexus' expansion to less value than before and even more substance. BMW doesn't. MB doesn't. Jaguar doesn't. Etc.
maybe you don't remember but BMW went throught the whole "eta" engine concept in the 80's and then had to reinvent themselves. BMW also changed it's appeal t o more luxury and less sport as time has moved on. MB also reinvented itself with the broad market change to more sport oriented cars in the 90's to compete head on against BMW. One of the exec's at VW said it best a few years ago that it's best for them to bo constantly evolving and not to wait for some crisis to reinvent yourself. Alot of Acura's reinventing you bring up was mostly marketing, not much chnaged in the product more on how it was presented.
08-08-2010, 07:06 AM
#2290
Go Big Blue!
Correct. Acura hasn't kept reinventing itself at all. That's part of the problem. From what I've seen is a slow move upmarket with their products over the last few years. You said it's all been marketing. I'll go further and say it's really only been talk in Unofficial rhetoric not even marketing meant for consumer consumption. If you are the average car buyer you haven't noticed anything.
08-08-2010, 07:08 AM
#2291
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08-08-2010, 09:16 AM
#2292
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I agree that it isn't dead, but I believe that if Honda existed all the way to 2010 without a V8, it is very unlikely to introduce one between now and 2016, which is when the new CAFE rules go into effect.
08-08-2010, 09:22 AM
#2293
Go Big Blue!
Good way of putting it. Of course the v8 isn't dead. Neither is the v10 or v12. I'm pretty sure it's dead for Acura though. Not that I agree, but Acura will probably figure out a way to put a v6 in the next RL. If it's larger than the current one then they better at least have some fantastic turbo package like BMW or invent something completely new that integrates electric motors and gas engines together to give more torque.
08-08-2010, 09:59 AM
#2294
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Hell no! I agree with you. The V8 will never die as long as gasoline is available. It will eventually be available in exotics only, and priced out of the range of mere mortals. This is a MAJOR reason I bought my CTS-V....it is probably the only V8 car I will ever own and I though it would be my last chance to experience such a car.
The V8 is also probably not really dead at Honda. It was in active development for the RL until last year. My thought is that even though Honda said it's dead.....it's probably just shelved until finances allow further development or (we hope) just finishing.
Agree on both points, except that the TL is already in 5-series territory in size. For the RL, a h.o. V6 is most likely, but unless there's a superpowerful variant of the J37 we don't know of, I can't see 375 hp.
The V8 is also probably not really dead at Honda. It was in active development for the RL until last year. My thought is that even though Honda said it's dead.....it's probably just shelved until finances allow further development or (we hope) just finishing.
Agree on both points, except that the TL is already in 5-series territory in size. For the RL, a h.o. V6 is most likely, but unless there's a superpowerful variant of the J37 we don't know of, I can't see 375 hp.
08-08-2010, 10:46 AM
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maybe you don't remember but BMW went throught the whole "eta" engine concept in the 80's and then had to reinvent themselves. BMW also changed it's appeal t o more luxury and less sport as time has moved on. MB also reinvented itself with the broad market change to more sport oriented cars in the 90's to compete head on against BMW. One of the exec's at VW said it best a few years ago that it's best for them to bo constantly evolving and not to wait for some crisis to reinvent yourself. Alot of Acura's reinventing you bring up was mostly marketing, not much chnaged in the product more on how it was presented.
And Mercedes of the 90s were no sportier, nor much different at all from ones before them. Mercedes never reinvented themselves.
VW's guy likely meant you have to be progressive and stay modern, not reinvent your brand (because ironically VW hasn't done much reinventing since he said that, aside from a few upscale pushing models).
08-08-2010, 10:48 AM
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Correct. Acura hasn't kept reinventing itself at all. That's part of the problem. From what I've seen is a slow move upmarket with their products over the last few years. You said it's all been marketing. I'll go further and say it's really only been talk in Unofficial rhetoric not even marketing meant for consumer consumption. If you are the average car buyer you haven't noticed anything.
And I'd argue average consumers haven't noticed a difference because Acura never gets very far before deciding they want to attack the market entirely differently.
08-08-2010, 01:37 PM
#2297
AZ Community Team
BMW focusing on economy was not reinventing the company. Reinventing a company means changing the entire basis of your brand. If BMW headed downmarket, for example, that would be reinventing the brand. Likewise, having more luxury than before is not reinventing the brand.
And Mercedes of the 90s were no sportier, nor much different at all from ones before them. Mercedes never reinvented themselves.
VW's guy likely meant you have to be progressive and stay modern, not reinvent your brand (because ironically VW hasn't done much reinventing since he said that, aside from a few upscale pushing models).
And Mercedes of the 90s were no sportier, nor much different at all from ones before them. Mercedes never reinvented themselves.
VW's guy likely meant you have to be progressive and stay modern, not reinvent your brand (because ironically VW hasn't done much reinventing since he said that, aside from a few upscale pushing models).
The MB turning to sport was very evident with the introduction of the Hammer (E500) as well as the purchase of AMG to compete head-on with BMW's M-group. MB had on occasion done a higher performance engine (300SEL 6.3 and 450SEL 6.9) but they were typically lacked the handling of their BMW counterparts. Also MB purchasing the Ilmor engine group for MB engine programs for CART and F1 after a self-imposed removal from motorsports following the LeMans disaster. MB also paired up with McLaren and beside the F1 championships they collaborated on them on he SLR.
For many decades BMW and MB co-exisited and actually had a fairly cordial relationship. They reframed from comparing one to the other in the auto-press. Apparently that went out the door when BMW introduced the V12 and that started the great German engine wars.
The VW exec (can't remember his name) did actually use the term reinvent in his speecht hat he gave at some auto conference ~5-6 years ago. It's a pretty decent speech about being continuously looking for evolution in every aspect of the auto business.
08-08-2010, 01:54 PM
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BMW focusing on economy was intend reinventing the company, Paul Roche made that comment several times when he was head of engines at BMW motorsport. One of the darker periods of BMW, having motors with 4750RPM redlines affected the soul of BMW in those early mid-80's.
The MB turning to sport was very evident with the introduction of the Hammer (E500) as well as the purchase of AMG to compete head-on with BMW's M-group. MB had on occasion done a higher performance engine (300SEL 6.3 and 450SEL 6.9) but they were typically lacked the handling of their BMW counterparts. Also MB purchasing the Ilmor engine group for MB engine programs for CART and F1 after a self-imposed removal from motorsports following the LeMans disaster. MB also paired up with McLaren and beside the F1 championships they collaborated on them on he SLR.
For many decades BMW and MB co-exisited and actually had a fairly cordial relationship. They reframed from comparing one to the other in the auto-press. Apparently that went out the door when BMW introduced the V12 and that started the great German engine wars.
The VW exec (can't remember his name) did actually use the term reinvent in his speecht hat he gave at some auto conference ~5-6 years ago. It's a pretty decent speech about being continuously looking for evolution in every aspect of the auto business.
The MB turning to sport was very evident with the introduction of the Hammer (E500) as well as the purchase of AMG to compete head-on with BMW's M-group. MB had on occasion done a higher performance engine (300SEL 6.3 and 450SEL 6.9) but they were typically lacked the handling of their BMW counterparts. Also MB purchasing the Ilmor engine group for MB engine programs for CART and F1 after a self-imposed removal from motorsports following the LeMans disaster. MB also paired up with McLaren and beside the F1 championships they collaborated on them on he SLR.
For many decades BMW and MB co-exisited and actually had a fairly cordial relationship. They reframed from comparing one to the other in the auto-press. Apparently that went out the door when BMW introduced the V12 and that started the great German engine wars.
The VW exec (can't remember his name) did actually use the term reinvent in his speecht hat he gave at some auto conference ~5-6 years ago. It's a pretty decent speech about being continuously looking for evolution in every aspect of the auto business.
Even you admit the AMG brand being purchased. How does that reinvent the entire MB brand? AMGs are one (sometimes two or three) top level trims far removed from regular models. And you also admit MB already had done performance before. Yes they have a high performance brand, but were they "reinvented" Not even close. Was SRT reinventing Chrysler? No. Was RS reinventing Audi? No. Did R reinvent Jaguar? No. So clearly, AMG did not reinvent Mercedes, and the regular models were not much changed either. MB did not reinvent themselves. Racing does not reinvent a road brand either.
Do you think VW is reinvented? I see minimal evidence of that. He must've been spewing marketing BS.
08-08-2010, 02:22 PM
#2299
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I don't think MB has re-invented itself at all. They have refined themselves which is different in that they appeal to a younger crowd here in the States. I would say Acura has tried to "re-invent" themselves going from FWD to AWD and to slap on that nasty beak. Clearly, that re-invention is still in process.
08-08-2010, 03:01 PM
#2300
Senior Moderator
Good way of putting it. Of course the v8 isn't dead. Neither is the v10 or v12. I'm pretty sure it's dead for Acura though. Not that I agree, but Acura will probably figure out a way to put a v6 in the next RL. If it's larger than the current one then they better at least have some fantastic turbo package like BMW or invent something completely new that integrates electric motors and gas engines together to give more torque.
Acura has said the next RL will be "fantastic". Given the known engine options out there in Honda-land, I will have to wait and see.
08-08-2010, 04:11 PM
#2301
AZ Community Team
My brother leased a 325e after owning a 320i, there was a entire change in the vehicle character. handling and engine both changed and not for the better. This did not happen across the entire line, the 6/7 series 3.2L straight sixes did not get eta'ized.
The MB luxury to sport/luxury took a decade. Read my posting again I indicated the performance MB in the 70's were almost all engine, very little handling performance compared to BMW. When the 90's started a general trend at MB started toward performance, this started with the purchase of Ilmor, then selecting Porsche to be a partner on the E500 Hammer. This was all out attempt to compete against the M5. The frame, chassis, motor, suspension, and transmission were either extensively modified with Porsche or created from new. The partnering with McLaren for racing and production cars and the eventually purchase of AMG sealed the deal. It was obvious to everyone the auto industry that MB had moved toward performance. Most of the MB performance plan was centered around and directed by the promotion of Schrempp as CEO in 1995. One of the global prizes of this enormous effort was McLaren/Mercedes Benz winning the 98/99 F1 World Championship.
VW did a obvious reinventing in the 90's esspecially with the revamped Jetta and Passat. The result of this was the short term but potent leadership of CEO Jose Lopez before he had to resign in shame having poached trade secrets from his former employer GM. Besides design he reinvented how VW did operations, when he took over there were 11 rear axle manufacturers for the Jetta/Golf platform. He quickly got it down to 3 saving loads of money and improving quality. His major contribution to VW was providing management structure and more sense of global involvement to vehicle concept.
We all see things differently, so I'll leave at we agree to disagree.
The MB luxury to sport/luxury took a decade. Read my posting again I indicated the performance MB in the 70's were almost all engine, very little handling performance compared to BMW. When the 90's started a general trend at MB started toward performance, this started with the purchase of Ilmor, then selecting Porsche to be a partner on the E500 Hammer. This was all out attempt to compete against the M5. The frame, chassis, motor, suspension, and transmission were either extensively modified with Porsche or created from new. The partnering with McLaren for racing and production cars and the eventually purchase of AMG sealed the deal. It was obvious to everyone the auto industry that MB had moved toward performance. Most of the MB performance plan was centered around and directed by the promotion of Schrempp as CEO in 1995. One of the global prizes of this enormous effort was McLaren/Mercedes Benz winning the 98/99 F1 World Championship.
VW did a obvious reinventing in the 90's esspecially with the revamped Jetta and Passat. The result of this was the short term but potent leadership of CEO Jose Lopez before he had to resign in shame having poached trade secrets from his former employer GM. Besides design he reinvented how VW did operations, when he took over there were 11 rear axle manufacturers for the Jetta/Golf platform. He quickly got it down to 3 saving loads of money and improving quality. His major contribution to VW was providing management structure and more sense of global involvement to vehicle concept.
We all see things differently, so I'll leave at we agree to disagree.
Again, paying extra attention to economy was not and did not reinvent the brand. BMW's direction of driving pleasure remained. They can market the brand as changed all they want, but changed it was not.
Even you admit the AMG brand being purchased. How does that reinvent the entire MB brand? AMGs are one (sometimes two or three) top level trims far removed from regular models. And you also admit MB already had done performance before. Yes they have a high performance brand, but were they "reinvented" Not even close. Was SRT reinventing Chrysler? No. Was RS reinventing Audi? No. Did R reinvent Jaguar? No. So clearly, AMG did not reinvent Mercedes, and the regular models were not much changed either. MB did not reinvent themselves. Racing does not reinvent a road brand either.
Do you think VW is reinvented? I see minimal evidence of that. He must've been spewing marketing BS.
Even you admit the AMG brand being purchased. How does that reinvent the entire MB brand? AMGs are one (sometimes two or three) top level trims far removed from regular models. And you also admit MB already had done performance before. Yes they have a high performance brand, but were they "reinvented" Not even close. Was SRT reinventing Chrysler? No. Was RS reinventing Audi? No. Did R reinvent Jaguar? No. So clearly, AMG did not reinvent Mercedes, and the regular models were not much changed either. MB did not reinvent themselves. Racing does not reinvent a road brand either.
Do you think VW is reinvented? I see minimal evidence of that. He must've been spewing marketing BS.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-08-2010 at 04:20 PM.
08-08-2010, 04:23 PM
#2303
Go Big Blue!
Guess it depends what they consider "fantastic". I thought the current RL was very good for it's time, but obviously we were a minority since it never really sold well even when it was fresh material. Maybe they will surprise everyone and turn the next gen into a true LS S 750 competitor complete with a full length size and significant power. That was always something that was a shortcoming of the RL. Just not enough power for that car. If they grow it, something will have to change significantly in the power department
08-08-2010, 04:39 PM
#2305
Race Director
08-08-2010, 04:53 PM
#2306
Go Big Blue!
I don't know. Do you think that would be too much too fast? I don't know if the Acura brand is as weak as the VW brand in the luxury category. I agree the Phaeton was a stupid move and was a predictable failure. But if they came out with a step up to the current Rl and had it priced in the low 60's for the base, that wouldn't be that much of a stretch for the brand. I know people will say "yea but they can't even sell a $50k sedan now". The RL has a lot of problems but it's price is not one of them. Acura brand sells $45k MDX's all day long. Buyers are comfortable with that price range for the brand so I think it could work as long as it was a true competitor. If they come out with a wounded duck that doesn't spec out to the competitors, than its a guaranteed failure for sure no matter how good the price is
08-08-2010, 05:07 PM
#2307
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Acura definately cannot sell a big ultra luxury sedan right now, no way. Look at how few Audi A8s the brand has sold in their history, and they're much more successful than Acura in perception.
Acura hasn't perfected the concept of selling a 50K RL. What I do NOT mean is "they can't even sell a 50K car", but the RL line has never been successful, so what makes them think they should "ADVANCE" now?
I don't know what the answer is.
Acura hasn't perfected the concept of selling a 50K RL. What I do NOT mean is "they can't even sell a 50K car", but the RL line has never been successful, so what makes them think they should "ADVANCE" now?
I don't know what the answer is.
08-08-2010, 05:07 PM
#2308
Race Director
^ If Honda were to build a full size LS competitor the price would reflect it along with sales. It makes no sense to build a 60+K sedan and have RL volume sales levels. They need to have something to counter the M - which is now usually in third behind the 5 series and E class and left the GS in the dust. It needs to sell 10K+ units a year.
08-08-2010, 06:05 PM
#2309
Go Big Blue!
On this point I won't argue to much. It really would depend on the product they offered. Since they don't have one it's gard to predict how successful they'd be. I know one thing for sure. I think they should try and push out the top end of the lineup. They are now the only lux brand without a sedan in the $60+ price range. Hopefully for Acura they will do this soon and coincide it with the rollout of the brand beyond NA
08-08-2010, 06:51 PM
#2310
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On this point I won't argue to much. It really would depend on the product they offered. Since they don't have one it's gard to predict how successful they'd be. I know one thing for sure. I think they should try and push out the top end of the lineup. They are now the only lux brand without a sedan in the $60+ price range. Hopefully for Acura they will do this soon and coincide it with the rollout of the brand beyond NA
Alfa Romeo (not in US market but still)
Buick
Lincoln
Saab
Volvo
08-08-2010, 06:56 PM
#2311
Go Big Blue!
08-08-2010, 07:09 PM
#2313
Go Big Blue!
I can agree with that. They're more of a near luxury brand as many like to describe them. That's why I say they need to increase the top end of their lineup if they are serious about moving upmarket
08-08-2010, 09:28 PM
#2315
AZ Community Team
Sadly I agree, we'll probably not see a V8 from Honda for some time if ever.
08-08-2010, 10:11 PM
#2316
Some may die, yeah, but I'm more than willing to bet the V8 engine will be alive and well throughout this decade.
New V8s are proof that they can acheive decent mileage figures. They will remain in sedans for years and years....and years. LOL
And a V8 is great fun in a sedan. There are those who would say to you that a I4 is more than enough, especially when turbocharged. But just like you find the getup of a V6 to be more to your liking, others go further to a V8.
The V8 is not dead!
New V8s are proof that they can acheive decent mileage figures. They will remain in sedans for years and years....and years. LOL
And a V8 is great fun in a sedan. There are those who would say to you that a I4 is more than enough, especially when turbocharged. But just like you find the getup of a V6 to be more to your liking, others go further to a V8.
The V8 is not dead!
Most people who buy sport coupes, roadsters, supercars, etc are obviously going to want V8 or bigger in there to really give that fun, aggressive, performance feel.
Last edited by smarty666; 08-08-2010 at 10:17 PM.
08-08-2010, 10:38 PM
#2317
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I never said the V8 was dead or was going to go completely away. Its still going to be around in coupes, convertibles, roadsters, supercars, etc but I think the amount in sedans is going to go down, maybe not in all sedans but less then there are today. That was my point.
Most people who buy sport coupes, roadsters, supercars, etc are obviously going to want V8 or bigger in there to really give that fun, aggressive, performance feel.
Most people who buy sport coupes, roadsters, supercars, etc are obviously going to want V8 or bigger in there to really give that fun, aggressive, performance feel.
But it's all okay. Sedans will suffer more than the vehicles you mentioned, no doubt, but they won't slide a whole lot. The Germans and most of the Japanese remain dedicated to the V-8, as do British luxury brands, as well as most American divisions. Then we have the Aussies!
08-09-2010, 06:30 AM
#2318
AZ Community Team
08-09-2010, 07:44 AM
#2319
Go Big Blue!
Sorry, I didn't understand this last question until I went back and read the original question a few posts ago. You asked are those list if cars entry-luxury. I misread it as "luxury". In that case, I change my answer to yes for you. Not sure what the point was you were tryng to make but hope that helps.
Buick, Lincoln, Volvo, etc. I would see as in a subcategory below BMW, Mercedes and Lexus. Those brands are of course below the higher tier of luxury and exotics brands such as Bentley, Rolls, etc. I would put Acura in that category with Buick and Lincoln. Why? Well that was my original point before you started asking me those direct questions. The Acura brand is not on the same level as Lexus et al. Why? Because it's all about price when categorizing brands. It's not that my Acura RL isn't every bit as "luxurious" as a Lexus GS, or BMW 535. In many ways it's MORE. But the brand is not on the same level because they don't offer cars in that $70-$100k range. In the minds of consumers that's what people use to judge brands. It's why Lexus sells so many ES models eventhough everyone would laugh out loud at Acura if they offered that very same car next year. People buying an ES are really buying it because it's next to the LS on the showroom floor and they want some of that cars mojo. They want to be mistaken for driving a $75k car when in fact they are driving a $35k fwd well appointed Camry. It's all about the range of the total lineup and the price points they compete in when people slot brands in their mind. If Lexus didn't sell the LS they would be Infiniti in the minds of consumers. And that's not good because Infiniti ranks just below Acura at the moment in surveys on that subject.
WHich brings me back to the ORIGINAL point and the current topic listed in the title of this thread; Should Acura consider getting rid of the current RL because it's a poor seller. I say no way if they are serious about their comments a couple years ago to be competitors in the BMW, Lexus, group. I don't care if they sell 2 a month. Leave it there because it's the only product they sell up into the $50k range. And while it sits there, work hard on getting a product that pushes into the $60's and even $70's.
Buick, Lincoln, Volvo, etc. I would see as in a subcategory below BMW, Mercedes and Lexus. Those brands are of course below the higher tier of luxury and exotics brands such as Bentley, Rolls, etc. I would put Acura in that category with Buick and Lincoln. Why? Well that was my original point before you started asking me those direct questions. The Acura brand is not on the same level as Lexus et al. Why? Because it's all about price when categorizing brands. It's not that my Acura RL isn't every bit as "luxurious" as a Lexus GS, or BMW 535. In many ways it's MORE. But the brand is not on the same level because they don't offer cars in that $70-$100k range. In the minds of consumers that's what people use to judge brands. It's why Lexus sells so many ES models eventhough everyone would laugh out loud at Acura if they offered that very same car next year. People buying an ES are really buying it because it's next to the LS on the showroom floor and they want some of that cars mojo. They want to be mistaken for driving a $75k car when in fact they are driving a $35k fwd well appointed Camry. It's all about the range of the total lineup and the price points they compete in when people slot brands in their mind. If Lexus didn't sell the LS they would be Infiniti in the minds of consumers. And that's not good because Infiniti ranks just below Acura at the moment in surveys on that subject.
WHich brings me back to the ORIGINAL point and the current topic listed in the title of this thread; Should Acura consider getting rid of the current RL because it's a poor seller. I say no way if they are serious about their comments a couple years ago to be competitors in the BMW, Lexus, group. I don't care if they sell 2 a month. Leave it there because it's the only product they sell up into the $50k range. And while it sits there, work hard on getting a product that pushes into the $60's and even $70's.
08-09-2010, 11:53 AM
#2320
Senior Moderator
WHich brings me back to the ORIGINAL point and the current topic listed in the title of this thread; Should Acura consider getting rid of the current RL because it's a poor seller. I say no way if they are serious about their comments a couple years ago to be competitors in the BMW, Lexus, group. I don't care if they sell 2 a month. Leave it there because it's the only product they sell up into the $50k range. And while it sits there, work hard on getting a product that pushes into the $60's and even $70's.