ImportsRhot

^^+10000000 Acura is not a serious player in the automotive world. Why should we take them seriously?

PG2G

My point was more regarding the recent comments and actions regarding changes in the companies direction, and less about the past.

Anyway, this is an RL thread so let me shut up and stop trying to defend Acura :P

Mansa24

We get it, you’re disappointed with Acura. You don’t have to remind us in every thread. It’s really getting old. You moved on to another brand, be happy.

Mansa24

Yes, Honda wants Acura to be up there with MB, BMW, and Lexus. You guys are making it sound like Acura is at the bottom of barrel. I myself see Acura on the same level as Infiniti, Audi, and Caddy. All of who want to be on the level of MB, Lexus, and BMW.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

Uh oh......

JediMindTricks

eh.

in terms of "luxury" brand, even if infiniti and audi are below MB, BMW, and lexus, i'd still put them above acura.

Edward'TLS

I'm glad that there is still some people left thinking Acura is not at the bottom of the luxury brand barrel. Unfortunately the general public thinks otherwise.

Read the following Brand Perception Survey by CR :

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/01/29...ury-and-buick/

Acura IS at the rock bottom of the list along with brands like Audi, Mitsubishi, Mercury and Buick.

Why Audi is there too really puzzles me ?

VTEC Racer

In defense of Acura, they stated that the cars they consider Tier One will not come out until AFTER the NSX. So as upset as we all may be at this new TSX and MMC RL and quite possibly even the next TL, it is not Acura's definition of Tier One, thank God. Another thing that Acura has also said is that the '09 TL will give a STRONG hint into the future of Acura's direction. It won't be the all out and it car that they want, but it will be a hint. Thev '09 TL is also supposedly the LAST Acura product to be released that shares a platform with any Honda. After the TL, it will be Acura-only chassis released. With Lexus, pretty much every car in the lineup can be traced back to a Toyota. With Infiniti, the whole damn lineup is pretty much a 350Z.

I like to bash Acura myself too about the shit they have come out with recently, but in reality I know that in 2010 and the few years beyond, they are going to explode. They only announced their Tier One goals back in January at the Detroit Auto Show. People act like they have been talking about it for years. I just say relax, and wait. I can be a big shit talker at times but everyone has the right to switch to another brand WHENEVER they want. I switched back in 2005. However, I still don't have the passion for the brand I drive now that I do for Acura and Honda.

Edward'TLS

To add to the insult. Not only does the '09 TSX has no hp boost (nor V6 option if Acura really wants to be on the same level as recognized luxury brands), it even has less hp (4 hp less) than the previous generation. Tell me what this is ? The more this BS drags on and tarnishes the Acura brand image, the harder it is to elevate the brand image in the future.

Edward'TLS

So no Tier One product until AFTER the NSX. The Honda top brasses are all screwed. Maybe everyone should stop buying Acura, or Acura stop selling cars, for the next couple years until after the NSX is launched. More and more people have worn out their patience, and defected to other makes. The longer it is to release Tier One products, the worse off it is for the Acura brand.

I don't see what's the problem with pretty much every Lexus in the lineup can be traced back to a Toyota. Toyota is best known for quality and reliable products. Why not ? Lexus simply capitalizes on this Toyota quality and giving it another notch up in terms of prestige, price, and luxury. Lexus has been highly successful as a true luxury brand.

Except the ES, all Lexus' are pretty much based on a RWD platform whereas the Toyota's are all based on the FWD platform. Either way, Lexus and Toyota belong to the same group. I don't see how one can prevent certain parts and components from sharing between the two given today's cost-saving and high-efficiency business models. A good example is the Cayenne chassis which is shared between the VW Touareg, the Audi Q7, and the Porsche Cayenne.

May be this is the way to go for Acura too. Acura will solely use a brand new Acura-only RWD platform for its vehicles, while Honda continues to use the existing global FWD platform.

mrdeeno

You consider Acura up with MB, BMW, and Lexus, when Acura doesn't even consider themselves up there?

nokiaman

Since when is Lexus considered higher than Audi?! Audi is a highly established car company, right along MB and BMW. Lexus is the one to be compared to Acura and Infiniti man, get your points straight!

Moog-Type-S

Huff'n glue is a bad thing.

GreenMonster

And that's fine... and nicely put I might ad...

BUT, in the meantime, I've seen lots of loyal Acura owners move on to other manufacturers... We'll have to see if they come back after all the tier one nonsense is said and DONE (talk is cheap)...

I don't like what I've been seeing lately (RL and TSX), so I'm kinda afraid to see the TL, and if you're saying that's going to be a hint to the direction they are going to take, I'm probably not going along for the ride...

It's sad that most of us can't get excited about anything acura is putting out....

Mansa24

Never said that. I said Acura was on the same level as Infiniti, Audi, Caddy, etc.

Mansa24

IMO, there's nothing in Audi’s lineup worth looking at except the S5. Why would I by an Audi when I can buy a MB or BMW for around the same price. I think this is why Audi only sold around 93,000 units in the US last year. People would rather buy a MB, BMW or Lexus.

swift22

lets stop arguing and instead use up bandwith by us saying this over and over again..

V8+RWD

Costco

I could care less about any of the newer MBs, and the new Audis look way better than Bangled BMWs. A4, A6, S6 and A5 look great too.

My sister did buy a Lexus but my mom likes the new Audis more than any of the other luxury brands in the segment. Audi's entire lineup looks more beautiful than what Acura, Lexus, BMW, MB, Cadillac or Infiniti has to offer lineup-wise.

unlemming

I really need to find a forum that talks about new car news, this acura bashing forum is getting excessive. Do we really need to state the same thing over and over?

V8 + RWD + REAL WOOD

Moog-Type-S

:wink:

VTEC Racer

See, the thing is that people were being patient and waiting for absolutely NOTHING. Acura never stated that the 2nd Gen RL was going to be a car that will compete with the 7 Series or S Class. They never stated that the 2nd TSX is going to move up a level and compete head-on with the 3-series. However, Acura HAS stated TWO things in the past regarding their cars: 1.) Acura is meant to be an intercept brand with the goal of deterring would-be German buyers and convincing them that their cars are 90% of the Germans, at 3/4 of the price. This statement alone shows that Acura, until this January, never did have any intention of being a Tier One brand. They created a niche for themselves and they succeeded GREATLY from it for 20 years. This may sound pathetic to some, but Acura's biggest problem might have been making cars that were TO GOOD for their own sake. Acura's have won magazine comparisons on NUMEROUS occasions against competition like BMW. However, Acura never wanted to compete with the Tier One brands like BMW, MB and Audi HEAD-ON. All they wanted to do was to convince people that their cars are ALMOST as good as the Germans but for a fraction of the cost. Is this making sense? 2.) Acura has ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS been about sensibility. Why anyone and everyone was expecting and has been waiting for V8+RWD is beyond me. Acura never gave any signs or hints that they would develop something like this in the past. Soooooo, where does this all bring us to? Today! Acura has finally stated their intention to compete head-on, at eye-level, with the big boys like BMW. NOW is the time for people to be patient and waiting, not the past 5 years. If Acura was producing cars like the TL BEFORE they had intentions of competing head-on, I am surely positive that from the time the NSX debuts and on, Acura will be almost unrecognizable from what it is now (in a good way of course). I can be an Acura basher at times, but in reality, all WE need to realize is that this is Honda we are talking about. Honda is not about failure. Honda wouldn't be investing MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars into Acura right now to build Acura ONLY R&D centers in Japan and the Acura ONLY design studio in California. Everyone here knows that the bean-counters at Honda are as frugal as it gets. No way in hell they would have approved this stuff for Acura if they didn't have a SERIOUS plan. Additionally, as long away as the NSX debut may seem for us, followed by Acura's true Tier One cars, it really won't affect Acura much at all until then. The average consumer has no idea Acura has announced Tier One goals. To them (which is 90+% of the buyers), Acura is just Acura. They don't know anything about Tier One or any of the other BS that goes along with it. They are just the same old reliable, decent-looking, fairly-priced and well equipped cars that they have always been. Understand what I am trying to get at here?

Phew... okay.

About Lexus.... One of the most common ways people chose to bash Acura is by saying that "It's just a fancy Honda Accord." There is nothing wrong with a Lexus chassis being traced back to a Toyota. In fact, the best selling models for Lexus are both based on the FWD Toyota Camry chassis. The GX is based off the 4-Runner, the LX off the Land Cruiser and the IS, GS (I think LS too) are all based off the Toyota Crown chassis. My point wasn't to bash Lexus (although I love doing that too). It was to show that with Acura not sharing a single chassis with any Honda goes to show just how serious they are with the brand and how much investment they are putting into it. Chassis development is NOT cheap. Again, lets think about the accountants at Honda. Would they allow such development if they didn't have a SERIOUS, I mean SERIOUS, plan presented before them? Absolutely not!

So yes, people have unfortunately been waiting for something to come out of Acura that was never intended nor hinted that it would come out. To those people (which DOES include me), I'm sorry. All that can really be said is Thank You for being so loyal all these years. I along with everyone else, and the people at Acura, TRULY TRULY TRULY hope that what they present in the future will bring back the lost customers from the brands they left Acura for, and truly show us all WHY we became such devote Acura fans in the first place.

I know all this makes me look like a real fanboy right now, but believe me, if I was, I would be driving an Acura right now, not an X brand car.

BTW, Edward, I'm not barking this all at you. It's meant for everyone.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

VTEC Racer, that's an awesome post! Agree with 100% what you said. Couldn't have said it better myself, honestly. And no, you don't sound like a fanboy to me at all, all you have said are simply facts, not claims or opinions.

Edward'TLS

Acura's intended target for the 2nd gen RL is the E-class, 5-series, and A6. But the fact is that the 2nd gen RL can't even compete with them as clearly shown from the sales figure.

The problem is that for the past few years the RL is only available fully loaded. Only last year did Acura add in a reduced-content trim for a cheaper price to rescue the dismay sales. This puts the RL at a hugh disadvantage against the Germans.

I was shopping for a car for my wife a couple years ago when the 2nd gen RL first came out. I cross-shopped the RL, A6, and M35x. The GS300AWD hadn't come out at that time. The M35x had a much cheaper base price. The A6 had a very comprehensive list of options allowing individual buyers to tailor their cars. It ended up that the custom-optioned A6-3.2Q was still $3K cheaper than the fully-loaded RL.

Needless to say I bought the A6. I don't need sunroof, navi, fancy audio, etc. Why should I be forced to paid for them as in the RL. Had the RL be the same price as the A6, I still wouldn't buy it because it just doesn't justify spending over $70K Cdn for the Acura brand car. That's why I keep repeating and repeating that how important it is to bring up the Acura image. Now Acura is planning to release Tier 1 cars after the long overdue NSX. Very bad move to retain or to attract buyers shopping for >$50K cars.

The cheaper CSX, TSX, TL may be 90% of the Germans, at 3/4 of the price, but definitely not the RL, which is why it ain't selling. Had it been priced $10K less (3/4 of the German price), I would have bought the RL right away.

Nowadays, the Accord and the TL are becoming too similar, especially with the '08 3.5L-V6 Accord. The Civic Si is part of the reason for the demise of the Integra Type-R, the Accord couple for the CL-S. The Honda and Acura lines are getting too close for comfort. Acura has no more niche left over the Honda products, other than the SH-AWD. If it were to be used on the TSX and TL, this would definitely add niche to the Acura brand. The only move for Acura now is the exclusive use of V8 or bigger powerplants and RWD/SH-AWD in all Acura product lines for the niche thing. Also reducing prices will also help a great deal (remember that 3/4 of the price deal).

Unfortunately, when Acura priced the RL to be $50K. The general public will treat it as a competitor to the ~$50K BMW, MB, and Audi, whether Acura wanted it or not. How can a car maker sell cars priced as the competitors and not expect them to compete with the competitors ? Being without the choice to order individual options put the RL at great disadvantages over the Germans, when everyone is looking for that "fraction of the cost" deal.

Everyone expects a >$50K luxury car to be at least RWD/AWD and with V8 options these days. Once again it shows how Acura is isolated from the real world in which all successful luxury brands have such. People have been screaming for V8 and RWD ever since the 2nd gen RL comes out. Acura is just not listening. The Domestic Three (GM, Chrysler, Ford) have been building vehicles that they want the public to buy, rather than building vehicles that the public wants to buy. It backfires and look how "successful" the Domestic Three are.

Honda had made the same mistake once by not listening to what buyers actually wanted. It claimed that the Honda I-4 can be tuned as powerful as the V6, where in the real world buyers actually wanted the V6 for the Accord. So buyers all flocked to the Camry, and Accord sales dropped. Eventually, Honda had to bow to the reality and wasted millions of dollars to lengthen the front end of the 5th gen. Accord in order to squeeze in the V6 engine during the mid-model-cycle change. When the 2010 RL comes out with V8 or V10, it is showing Acura has to bow to the reality once more.

The average consumer doesn't know about Tier One or other BS, they only know it doesn't justify buying any >$50K Acura car. An excellent example is the $70K VW Phaeton which flopped big time. But Honda really wants to crack into this >$50K lucrative market with the Acura brand, it isn't enough just to sell cars top out at $40K. Otherwise, what's the different between luxury Acura and economy Honda. Honda wants the luxury Acura brand to make big money by selling high-priced luxury vehicles. What good is a luxury brand whose cars top out at merely $40K ?

FiveLiterCheater

Who in the hell wants a giant V8 with the gas prices the way they are....I think the whole auto industry needs to step back to the drawing board and focus more on alternative energy sources and maximizing efficiency. Cars are just getting fatter and fatter as time moves on, and their only solution is to put a bigger engine in it that gets the car accross the 1/4 mile .5 second faster than the competition. Its kind of funny too, because a lot of you act like five year olds at the playground awaiting a fight to see who comes out on top, but in the end, the oil companies are laughing at everyone and enjoying their monopoly over the market. When gas hits $4.50/g+, they're gonna be giving away those V8's.

MaximaPower

then buy a honda civic.....wats wrong with having options to buy what u want?

it's not like anyone is FORCING you to buy a V8

Jackygor

Clearly, you are not the intended market for these types of car.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

2nd gen RL was awarded Car of the Year in Japan in 2004. Here's an extreme example, Sunfires and Cavaliers sold well? But are they good cars?

You said it very well though, it's not that the car sucks, its the Acura image plus its lack options. In other words, poor marketing.

NSX's sole purpose was to lift Honda's image. Before the NSX, Honda was simply seen as an economy car maker, similar to what Korean car makers are now. On the other hand, it was winning F1 every single year. Obviously there's a gap between the average Accord, Civic with a F1 race car, thus the NSX was born. The NSX was supposed to get updated, as in a FMC. But the death of Soichiro Honda caused that idea to vanish. It's sad but it's true. However, the project successfully lifted Honda's image, and forced Porsche, Ferrari and Lambourgini to produce great quality cars now.

The 3rd gen TL is approaching its last year of production, while the new Accord is..obviously new. Similar to how the last gen Accord kinda overshadowed the 2nd gen TL.

The Civic Type R is the reason why the Integra Type R is no longer here, not the Civic Si. I think you meant to say RSX? The Accord coupe replaced Prelude, not CL-S. Other then that, yea, Honda should do more to differentiate its Acura cars from Honda cars.

Honda might be wrong with the 5th gen Accord, but it was also wrong for underestimating the popularity of the TSX. The demand doubled than what Honda expected, even though it's only a 2.4L 4-cylinder.

See what's happening? When Honda does something good, people will go, "oh, they finally do it..they finally bow down to the reality." If Honda doesn't what some people want it to do, then those people would go, "geez Honda everyone is doing that or making that, how come you are not producing that as well?" So, what should Honda do then? Either way they will get bashed. Besides, the 1st gen RL flopped so badly that not many people know what RL is. No wonder it doesn't sell well in the 2nd gen model too.

Like VTEC Racer said, Honda didn't announce the Tier 1 thing until this year. Obviously they can't do that in 2 months can they?

Edward'TLS

We are talking about V8 for high-priced luxury cars, not V8 economy cars. People spending that much money on a high-priced luxury cars are not really affected by gas price.

For MB, the base engine for the new '08 compact C-class has grown from a 2.6L-V6 to a 3L-V6, and for the E-class from 3.2L to 3.5L. The AMG E55 (5.5L) becomes the E63 (6.3L).

For BMW, even the smallish 128I is using a 3L-V6 as the base engine.

For Audi, the smallest engine is now a 2.0T-I4 instead of a 1.8T-I4. The S4 is using a 4.2L-V8 and the S6 a 5.2L-V10.

For Lexus, the LS430 (4.3L) is now the LS460 (4.6L).

Nowadays luxury cars are all going up in displacement and horsepowers, and there is no sign of it slowing down. To them, they'll say fuck the gas price.

If the gas price keeps going up, the only effect is that V8 and big displacement engines will soon become the exclusive symbols for the wealthy people, to stand out from all the common people. These exclusive wealthy people will too be laughing in pride while rumbling down the highways at unmatchable speed.

Edward'TLS

It doesn't matter how many awards a "good" car has. If it doesn't sell, it means people don't like it, and the car company is losing money over it. If a "good" car doesn't sell, something is obviously not right in that formula. I agree that the 2nd gen RL is a good car, but no way in hell am I going to fork out $70K Cdn for this good Acura car.

Sunfires and Cavaliers were entry level economy cars and they served their purpose well by selling the quantity as intended. They were not good cars, given their list prices I wouldn't expect so. So people complained about them, but people still bought them. In contrast, people complements the RL, but they just don't buy it. This doesn't do Acura nor the Acura brand image any good.

The best marketing in the world won't do any good when the car is lacking all the basic elements of a luxury entity, namely V8 and RWD. You know why MB, BMW, and Audi all have V8 options for their luxury vehicles when most buyers only buy the V6 trim. You know why MB, BMW, and Audi are wasting so much money setting up and maintaining high-performance lines (AMG, M, S/RS) with outrageous hp cars but with limited sales. The reason is that all these V8, V10, and high-hp claims are in fact marketing tools. They serve to elevate the brand image, not to increase the number of sales. They are indeed expensive marketing tools, but are very effective in elevating brand recognition, rather than just marketing BS talks.

You're very correct. It's a bad move to discontinue production of the current NSX, and worst still to have spent so far 12 years to develop the new NSX replacement. Without the NSX as the flagship now, there is nothing to sustain the already low Acura brand image.

No one says Honda finally bow down to the reality when Honda does something good such as VTEC, ALB, VSA, Type-R, RWD roadster, SH-AWD by answering to buyers' needs. Only when buyers are screaming for something (like V6, V8, RWD) and Honda originally refuses to commit but later does, will we say Honda finally bow down to the reality. The whole idea hinges on Honda not listening to what the buyers want, and refuses to give what the buyers want in the beginning. Until models flopped and sales dropped then Honda suddenly realizes it made a mistake and then applies corrective measure to give what the buyers want. This is bow down to the reality.

If you have been following all the Honda press releases and speeches from the top brasses for the past few years, you'll have noted that Honda had already stated that it wanted to lift the Acura brand image many, many times years ago. Only recently has Honda becomes more specific and start talking about the Maybach and the Tier One BS.

Honda broke ground on the new California design studio way back at the beginning of 2006. The five point signature grill design was announce even way back. It shows that Honda is doing something already way back then. But all these are like dancing around the problem. If Honda wants Acura to be recognized as a true luxury brand, it has got to have the right components such as V8 and RWD, which is the norm in all true luxury brands, to be successful.

As a side note, Mazda also wanted to create a luxury line (Armanti) at around the same time when Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti were created. But finally Mazda gave up on the idea because reseaches showed that it wouldn't be viable without V8 and RWD in its stable. Mazda was smart, but Acura, 20 years later, is still struggling to be recognized as a true luxury brand name having trouble moving anything above $50K.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

And that formula in the RL is wrong because of its lack of choices. I mean give it a FWD option (forget about RWD in the 2nd gen RL) and say the 3.2L or a detuned 3.5L engine. The current base RL is CAD$63900 without PDI. With the about choices I guess the price can go well below $60000. Even so, it is still a fully loaded car with each and every option a typical luxury car buyer wants. And also consider the dealer discount, I'm not sure about Canada, but in the States, if you go to the RL forum, you will see USD$5k discount is not uncommon. The jump in price between the TL and RL is too great. By the way, if you are still interested in a RL, a 2005 one would cost around CAD$35000, pretty sweet deal if you ask me

Yes, I understand how V8 and RWD can lift a brand image. This is somewhat similar to what the NSX was for. I also think AWD is a good alternative. May be it takes years to establish the fame like the Quattro did.

This is typical of what Honda, as in Soichiro Honda liked to do. He would refuse anything rumour or whatsoever and in reality, he would be develop the thing that he's refusing. This might sound stupid or confusing, but that's Soichiro Honda. How do I know what? I have a book that talks about him (that is a few hundred pages long).

Yes, they did say they wanted to lift the image. They started the hp war in the near lux market, they dropped the RSX, they made the 2nd gen RL. But like you said, they didn't say anything specific. To what extend did they want to improve on in terms of image? When will they do that? These weren't really answered until this year I believe. I guess you can say they are playing tricks with words.

It set up a new design studio and R&D center, etc. As you have said, these were done in 2006? But design and engineering don't take place in one night. Perhaps the first product from these centers is the next TL? Besides, they had to start somewhere to lift the image right?

Mazda did create TWO luxury lines, Xedos in Europe, and Eunos in Asia (but they shared the same cars). They introduced Eunos 500 (Xedos 6) and Eunos 800 (Xedos 9, aka Mazda Millenia). However, similar to Nissan, the breakage of bubble economy caused the failure of these projects, as well as billion of dollars to Mazda. That's why it had to seek financial help from Ford. After seeing the failure of Mazda and Nissan, it's not too hard to understand why Honda became reluctant to some demands.

By the way, Honda is pretty much the only Japanese car maker, besides Toyota, to be left standing alone, without being owned by another manufacturer at all.

Renault has 44.3% of Nissan (well may be less now)
Mitsubishi used to be part of Daimler Chrysler
Mazda is part of Ford
Subaru is part of Toyota
Suzuki is part of GM
Daihatsu is part of Toyota.

Edward'TLS

Please note that not every German car buyers arm their cars to the teeth with options. Nobody likes to have unnecessary options being stuffed into his/her throat and getting charged for them as in the RL's either fully loaded or no car option. Like I said before, a $10K price reduction will definitely made the RL more attractive.

Having seen how people treat their cars, I would rather save up and buy new cars than to buy used ones.

[QUOTE=iforyou]Mazda did create TWO luxury lines, Xedos in Europe, and Eunos in Asia (but they shared the same cars). They introduced Eunos 500 (Xedos 6) and Eunos 800 (Xedos 9, aka Mazda Millenia). However, similar to Nissan, the breakage of bubble economy caused the failure of these projects, as well as billion of dollars to Mazda. That's why it had to seek financial help from Ford. After seeing the failure of Mazda and Nissan, it's not too hard to understand why Honda became reluctant to some demands.
/QUOTE]

The European and Asia markets are a totally different picture. I'm always refering to North America where Toyota, Honda, and Nissan launched the Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti brands. The NA market is their largest auto market in the world, and account for the bulk of their annual revenues and profits.

swift22

just for the sake of argument; unless acura IS struggling and changing plans every month which i find unlikely, acura is NOT bringing back the "NSX" name. They are making a supercar perhaps if you call an aston martin DB9 a supercar......

Otherwise kickback and relax since I have thought acura has an ace up their sleeve. I pray they do anyway.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=Edward'TLS]Please note that not every German car buyers arm their cars to the teeth with options. Nobody likes to have unnecessary options being stuffed into his/her throat and getting charged for them as in the RL's either fully loaded or no car option. Like I said before, a $10K price reduction will definitely made the RL more attractive.

Having seen how people treat their cars, I would rather save up and buy new cars than to buy used ones.

Agree, taking away some options, give some choices to consumers would definitely help.

Really? Well I guess for a student like me, I don't have that many choices.... if I want a nice car, I have to buy it used. I guess I have been lucky so far (touch wood) with used cars as they all drive very well and I rarely have to spend tons of money to repair

I didn't know you were referring to just North America. The luxury line never happened here because 1.) the reason you gave, and 2.) Mazda has already been bought by Ford by then.

Mansa24

They don’t because they probably can’t afford to have it fully optioned out. That’s why I like Acura. They give you everything a proper luxury car should have, navigation (only option), sunroof, premium sound, etc standard. Why buy a luxury vehicle if you’re not going to have all somewhat optioned out? I guess I’m not a badge whore because I would rather have my almost fully loaded TL (on navi) vs. a stripped down 3 series.

Mansa24

What buyers want, don’t you mean car enthusiasts? Your average car buyer would probably go for V6/AWD. Car enthusiasts are screaming for a V8 and RWD they will never buy, however I see your point about a V8 bringing the image up.

But, image doesn’t always mean sales/profit, which is the end game. Acura is still the Japan’s #2 luxury auto seller in the US and they still out sell Audi, Jag, etc. I guess buyers have spoken.

Lexus sales: 200,334 units
Acura sales: 180,104 units
Infiniti sales: 127,038 units
Audi 93,506 units

Not bad for a luxury brand an aging sedan lineup and supposedly already dead.

mrdeeno

maybe that's why the RL is such a sales success compared to its competitors that offer V8/RWD

Some people just can't grasp the concept of having a V8/RWD option as the "halo" that raises image perception and brings more buyers into the dealership to sell more V6 models. If Acura had a V8 model and a certain month they sold 1, but having a V8 brought in 100 other people who bought V6 RL's, then that V8 is worth having.

Like someone brought up before either in this thread or another, "image" cars sell in such few numbers that it's "logically" not worth the expenditure to develop. But we're not dealing with "logic" when you're talking about $50k+ midluxury range.

Even with fewer sales, I think Infiniti's profit margin is higher than Acura's.


FIXED!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^ I think he said, "however I see your point about a V8 bringing the image up."..so...he's agreeing that yes, V8 option will help improve the image.

Edward'TLS

Acura is neither dead or dying. The Acura brand is exceptionally successful as a "luxury-wanna-be" (midway between economy and true-luxury) brand selling cars top out at around $40K.

But Honda really wants it to be recognized as a true-luxury brand, and so be able to sell cars priced at $50K and beyond. This is what the Acura brand fails in.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^ And I believe that's exactly what Acura was intended for when it first started. It wasn't until recent years that it's hinting to us that it wants to be true-luxury, and it wasn't until this year that this goal was made clear.

mrdeeno

I don't actually believe that it was intended only to be a "near luxury" brand from the start. The former Legend and 1G RL were always attempts for Acura to be more competitive with other midluxury models. The Legend competed well and sold well, so well in fact that it scared Acura into thinking people would know "Legend" and not "Acura", hence the "RL" name.

But since the RL, they have not had any success breaking into the midluxury market. Had they started Acura out selling only near-luxury models, I would be more inclined to believe they intended to only be a near-luxury brand. But Acura starting out with the Legend and later the RL, not to mention the existence of the NSX back in Acura's early days, all say otherwise...that Acura ALWAYS intended to have a higher brand image than they have been able to achieve. You don't go around saying you are a "near luxury" brand while selling a $80k "exotic".