SpicyMikey

Correct. The RL uses real wood trim on the dash but plastic on the door trim and center console. But to be honest, that's another one of those "who cares". It still looks like plastic since it's so heavily treated and finished. The only way somone would notice is if you pointed it out to them. I think that goes for the new M also. I think it's more of a marketing thing. It's of zero value. I say use plastic everywhere and give me an upgraded stereo, etc.

Colin

Except for the base RL (non-technology package), this model uses plastic on the dash– in place of the real wood trim.

fsttyms1

I say we complain about what a disaster the RL of late has been and why it should be yanked off showrooms and replaced with something better.

Belzebutt

^ Like a re-badged Equus?

SpicyMikey

Again with that screwy (IMO) idea. It is just NOT going to happen so stop calling for it over and over again. It goes against ALL logic if in fact they plan to keep the slot occupied with a model, which they have now said they do. Even if Acura agreed with you that it's a hot mess, they will not (should not) stop production until they can redesign it. Granted their presence in the $50k sedan market is low because of this weak product. But killing it would completely ELIMINATE Acura's presense in this segment and shrink the brands customer base by about 100-200 customers per month. How is that a move in the right direction unless they were planning to completely exit it long term and move in a different direction? That's not a rhetorical question. I'd really love to know your business logic for the idea.

fsttyms1

I guess i needed red text for some of you.

And IF i wanted to continue to call for it to happen i have the right to. Just like you have the right to want it to be kept.

And to answer your question AGAIN from a business standpoint 100-200 imo is a failure and should have been fast tracked to a new model the min sales started slipping the way it did. I would really love to hear your business logic to keep a failed product running costing more to make than it returns (especially since that car doesnt help acura sell other models or get people into the show room). A move in the right direction would be to admit the failure (which the car is) and start on a new product. Honestly, in your eyes, HOW long should they let the car go. What if it takes them to 2015-2017 to actually bring out a new RL? (which wouldnt be a stretch for acura) Would letting the car run (with im sure even lower sales numbers by that point) be a wise decision? A move in the right direction isnt letting the car get to that point, a move in the right direction is admitting the loss, stop it and get a better version out there. killing their presence in the 50k market. Its damn near non existent the way it is. Dont think many would notice its departure. Put the money saved to the help of the new product.

mrdeeno

We have to remember that...

1. We aren't dealing with a normal car company here, we're dealing with Honda. They do some really smart things and some really asinine things that make no sense from a business perspective, and these things have bit them in the ass before, yet what they do well at more than makes up for these mistakes.

2. They have no problem keeping money losing models around well after it should've been replaced or killed. the last gen RL was an old model on its own platform with longitudinal engine that benefited from no economy of scale, yet it was what, 7 years old before it was replaced? The NSX was a money losing model with barely any updates through the years and they kept that sucker around for a long time even well after it stopped being an effective "halo" (when it was killed, it had NO negative effect on honda's brand image, meaning there was no positive effect from it at the point it was killed).

3. They can't kill the RL since it has be bestest ever resale value and sells so very very well for such high prices on craigslist! At least keep it around until the M3 dominating TSX V6-SHAWD comes out!

SpicyMikey

yes you can continue with these comments. But they are inflamatory and are obviously just meant to be negative jabs at the brand and the car. It doesn't add anything to the conversation and it just gets old. Last time I checked this was an Acura site and you are supposed to be a MODERATOR. I find it hard to believe sometimes that you (and a few other moderators) talk more smack than most others I am not the defender of all things Acura, but give it a rest already. It's starting to feel like Autospies around here. Just a bunch of sarcastic comments one after another with little substance.

I think we can definitely agree on that. The RL has little appeal anymore in this market given it's competition. It was never a huge success even when new. But its not the first time a car manufacuter had a dud. It's nothing to be embarassed about and it's not evidence Acura is run by monkeys. Regardless I agree, they should have fast tracked it's replacement and rolled out a new model that was larger and more powerful by now. But that is obviously not going to happen. Honda seems to march to the beat of their own drum.

I think this is the key to our disagreement. If Acura was bleeding cash on the production and distribution of the RL, and they were selling ZERO RL's and thus not adding ANY new buyers to their customer base, then yes, I'd agree they may want to halt it for now. But I have no reason to believe, and you have no evidence to prove, that the car is costing them money to sell. Certainly we know they are selling more than zero RL's and therefore, every RL they sell is another Acura customer who is a potential longer term customer for a newer RL in the future. If they didn't have this RL to sell them they would have bought an M37, etc. and they would have been less likely to get them as a customer in the future

Talk to me in 2017. If they are still selling the 2G RL then I will agree Acura management is truly a bunch of morons. But that isn't going to happen. Even if they waited the same amount of time as the last RL, it would be 2014 for the FMC. But given the terrible sales, I'd have to guess they will replace it in the next 2 years. Again, I agree that would be about 4 years too late.

Youve used that argument before and I think your logic is flawed. It goes along with what you said above about losing money on the RL. You seem to think Honda is short on cash (or manpower) and the slow selling RL is holding them up from coming out with a new one or doing better things. Do you really think that? If that were true I'd agree they need to kill it. Honda has a great balance sheet and little debt relative to other manufacturers. You are suggesting they can't chew gum and walk at the same time. That just can't be the issue. They are just being Honda. Ultra conservative and slow as a snail.

neuronbob

Oy. What has happened to this thread? It's supposed to be a thread about RL news and it's turned into Ramblings.

How about a change in direction for the thread?

What do you want in the next RL that Acura would actually consider? How about someone posting what they think the next RL should look like?

SpicyMikey

What would I like to see Acura do with the next RL? It all depends on what they see the brand being in the future. There was the talk of "Tier 1" then followed by "Smart Luxury". I don't know what "smart luxury" is. I figured it was "code" for an upmarket product using v6 and fwd platform. I'm personally ok with that as I don't need a v8 to be happy. But, regardless of the number of cylinders, I think they need more low end torque and more physical size for their flagship sedan. If they can do that with some cool new v6 hybrid that has electric motors running along with the gas engine, then that would be interesting especially if it significantly increased MPG. Maybe that's what they mean by "smart luxury". I suspect we'll find out more in 2011 for a new model in 2012

Personally, I think Acura needs to expand the lineup to include a convertible and coupe. To me that's just as important as a full sized sedan

silver3.5

Is this your sole reason for wanting Acura to keep the RL in the lineup?

Legend2TL

1) Unless you has access to the accounting system and practices (amortization, costing rates, ...) at Honda you do not know if they're losing, making or breaking even on the RL. AFAIK the only product that the Honda has indicated that lost money was the NSX, several board members made that statement awhile ago which was the influence for making sure the S2000 would make it's numbers. That doesn't mean they're losing money it just means I've not seen any statement from them. There's plenty of car business books on making/losing money on a model, the John Delorean saga on the Vega was interesting in how much money it was costing GM.

2) Even Honda does't always know if a product or project makes a difference to bringing people into the showroom. In the mid-90's Honda was trying to determine the influence of the NSX in the 90's on getting buyers of interested in their products, they never got a clear answer from the various marketing surveys they did. Oddly enough similar surveys indicated the Honda F1 engine program (which cost 100's of millions of dollars) did bring Honda global brand recognition. The Honda board felt the F1 program was a good investment but they were never certain about the NSX having an effect. That was the old man's baby and it remained a touchy topic until he passed away.

SpicyMikey

No. I've listed several reasons

fsttyms1

This is the internet, if you dont like it dont respond. Its not my job here to love every thing acura and to defend them to the death. Its my job to help keep things running smoothly. As for give it a rest already, same thing could honestly be said to you as for your defending the RL.


I never said they were bleeding cash, nor have i ever said its hurting the bottom line. But one really cant believe that (rough estimate) that they are breaking even on 2k cars a year. Id put money on the fact that the rest of the lineup is picking up the slack on the RL costs. But thats just my belief as i have no proof, but it would seem logical to me. Show me otherwise and i will concede.
One could only hope it doesnt take that long. It was just an example, but not something that would surprise me as of late with this company.

[QUOTE=SpicyMikey;12267785]
Youve used that argument before and I think your logic is flawed. It goes along with what you said above about losing money on the RL. You seem to think Honda is short on cash (or manpower) and the slow selling RL is holding them up from coming out with a new one or doing better things. Do you really think that? If that were true I'd agree they need to kill it. Honda has a great balance sheet and little debt relative to other manufacturers. You are suggesting they can't chew gum and walk at the same time. That just can't be the issue. They are just being Honda. Ultra conservative and slow as a snail.[/QUOTE

Again i have NEVER (and id like you to show me where i have said that) said honda is Short on cash or loosing money. I have said i believe they are loosing money ON the RL. I have never said this model is holding them up either, just that the money and resources (i believe) could be better used else where. I know this company makes money and does well. I am not suggesting they cant do both at the same time, just that i think they "should" and that is solely my opinion, one i am entitled to I also agree they are very conservative and slow. I would just like to see them step outside the box a little (especially on the acura line)
Again, My logic it may be flawed in the auto buisness (but my logic helps run a small company that brings in about 2 million a year) and hasnt failed on me yet. When something is costing me money i find ways and solutions to get rid of it or to better it so that it doesnt.

fsttyms1

And you are correct, I dont know. But like stated above i doubt a line that is on average selling just 2k cars is helping to break even. I could be wrong, but that is how i feel.

I know there is little info on whether a certain product brings in people. I never said one did. I was speaking in general how some think this is their bread and butter that does get people in to look.

black label

At this point, the only version of the RL in the continental US that uses real wood trim is the CMBS/ACC package.

It may be different in Hawaii than is is in the continental US, our tech package has genuine curly maple plood in stead of wood.

SSFTSX

You simply dont understand how to interprete data. KBB values have no practical relevance to real market values just like EPA has no relevance to MPG in real driving conditions. No one in market is interested in 50k mile BMW 5. they are dime a dozen rusting in dealer lots.

remember EPA gave huge advantage to 2011 BMW 5 series fuel economic over A6 but when C&D tested it. they were identical.


how is Edmunds and C&D biased to Honda and BMW?
At C&D in last 12 months period Audi has won 4 comparision test with Q5, A6, S4 against BMW. and i am pretty sure new A8 is going to win against BMW 7so it will be 5 in total.
Edmunds have provided objective analysis of Acura RL. critizing its fuel economy, slow performance etc but praised its fit and finish, interior leg space (MMC model) with about neutral opinion on styling. what else you expect?

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

And how exactly do you "interprete" data? And whatever data you are "interprete-ing", please share it. Id love to see the countless BMW 5 series that are rusting on dealer lots while the RL sells like hotcakes.

Do you work for Acura? Or did a dealer gouge you and you are spouting this nonsense in a poor attempt to justify the money you spent?

SpicyMikey

I don't defend the RL. Just the idea of keeping it in the lineup until they can replace it, which I agree should be sooner rather than later.

I have nothing emotionally tied up in owning this car. For me it was the right buy about 4 years ago. I needed a car to share with my then new teenage driver. I had a 3000GT VR4 Spyder. it was getting old. That was too much car for her to drive so I looked for a nice safe boring 4 door sedan to share with her. It had AWD and colision mitigation system to help a distracted teenage driver. It was the perfect car. But it was the first sedan I ever owned and will most likely be the last regardless of what they do with the next one.

alex2364

http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=917325

SSFTSX

used Acura RL is not overflowing dealers like BMW 5. There is no way they are lowering the asking price to BMW level.
It is far easier to get BMW 535 (MMC model) 2008 sport, premium, navigation package than 2008 RL in right color and tech package.
I dont need to work for Acura to give objective opinion. Honda was designing its own industrial robots decades back. It has the training, R&D to built the best finish in its high end sedans that no other car manufacturer can match.
Just like Audi products are getting more expensive and winning most of its competition because it has the profits and money to back up. BMW simply dont have that scale of money.

krio

How do you know?

krio

great news. for the new gen. RL then we can wait till 2015...

Colin

Thank you for adding this. We actually do have a unique model and (unless something changed) ours trades XM for wood dash in the Tech. However, now I'm curious..... more research.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

The 6AT is a step in the right direction. I wonder what it will do for performance and gas mileage.

Colin

^^ +1 city and +2 highway?

SSFTSX

Motortrend has got ZDX in long term fleet and it is getting 18.3mpg. C&D got 20mpg on ZDX.
RL should get 21-22mpg combined with 5.3 to 5.8 sec 0-60mph timings and pulling over 0.85g on standard tires.
I wonder there will be upgrade to navigation like HDD. It will be very competitive.

SpicyMikey

No way the RL will do 60 in 5.8 seconds let alone 5.3. Although I must admit my experience is with the pre mmc RL having the 3.5L. Colin, what are your thoughts. Il'm thinking more like 7 seconds.

Anyone else drive the MMC RL with the 3.7L? Dont forget this is a heavy car and has SHAWD

knavinusa

Actually, I think I've seen tests where they were able to get the RL to go under 6 seconds.

SpicyMikey

Well, not my RL! I don't need head snapping torque at this point in the game, but the RL's thrust off the line was always a weak point to me. I'll look for some reliable numbers from reliable sources because sub 6 second time seems wrong

SSFTSX

5.8 sec is for Edmunds time and 5.3 second is on C&D/RT and Motortrend in between.
These are pretty realistic considering ZDX/MDX experiance with 6AT.
C&D got 6.6second with MDX. and that beast is 15% heavier, much wider/taller than RL. Infact in 0-100mph MDX was nearly identical with X5.
Just straight reduction of 15% will give you 5.6 second on C&D testing.

SpicyMikey

Would you post a link to those numbers?

I just went to an Edmunds test of an 09RL and they recorded 7.2 for the 0-60 at a dead stop start. That actually feels about right from my experience

http://www.edmunds.com/acura/rl/2009/testdrive.html

fsttyms1

If any thing i see this as pushing the new model back even more. I hope im wrong.

SSFTSX

2010 MDX is faster than 2009 RL on Edmunds. Such is big improvement with
6AT. I am expecting sub 6 second on Edmunds test for 2011 RL with the upgrades. Look at NVH levels of MDX.

http://www.edmunds.com/acura/mdx/2010/testdrive.html


http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...f64fdb939a.pdf

SpicyMikey

^^ If they got the RL doing 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and added a 6AT, that would change the equation a bit for sure for many shoppers in this market. We'll see

EDIT: I also agree they need to add the HDD nav and audio system from the new TL. That would help it be more inline with competition let alone it's own peers in the lineup.

That would probably make it a better product until the FMC

fsttyms1

I think they would have to work on looks as well. That and figure out exactly what demographic they were targeting.

Also why stick all that time and effort into a car that is supposed to be replaced soon, unless it really isnt because they dont have something to replace it with (making my fictitious 2017 figure look plausible

krio

fixed.

SSFTSX

I dont think C&D and RT would have any problem beating 5.8 second time.
Look at MDX/ZDX handling on Edmunds/C&D and think about RL.
RL would have the best handling in its class, best ride as it would not need sport suspension to achieve it. class leading fuel economy and NVH.
Finest fit & finish & build quality that only Honda can produce.
Most of German car makers R&D money is going on creating endless diesel engines. that dont have investments on scale of Honda in industrial robotics.

That infinit M is laughable product as it is only matching MDX/ZDX NVH not of 21st century luxury sport sedan.

SpicyMikey

Nothing they can do about the looks. They won't invest in the tooling needed for sheet metal changes. I could be wrong but I think it is what it is.

If anyone was thinking a new RL would roll out in MY2012 then this probably kills that notion for them. To me, 2012 was looking unrealistic since we hadn't heard or seen any rumblings on the replacement. That's only a little more than a year away!

Not sure if this hurts the idea much for a MY2013 replacement but it certainly doesn't help it.

We'll probably see the sub TSX before the replacement RL

mrdeeno

Must be why the RL is selling like hotcakes over the M.