SSFTSX

sales have nothing to do with product. Even Q5 is not selling like RX. 1/5 of RX. RL is 1/5 of M.
M is more in TL class product in built quality.

Legend2TL

, agreed getting the 6AT is a move in the right direction. Wonder if the 2011 MDX is getting a 6AT also?

Colin

^^ So far, Acura has only paired the six speed automatic transmission with the 3.7 L engine. With the MDX and ZDX getting it in 2010, it makes sense that the RL should get it for 2011. It probably required very little additional engineering to make it happen.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I haven't paid much attention to the TL (for obvious reasons) but does it have the 6AT?

mrdeeno

Take it from me, buddy, the LAST generation M was definitely NOT same class as TL in build quality. I researched and tested the RL and M before going with the M, and it is definitely on par in some areas and better in others, but no where is it lower in quailty than the RL, not to mention head and shoulders above the TL. The new M is even better in terms of material and build quailty than the last M, and considering the RL is still an "older" generation, is definitely at a disadvantage. And one annoying thing that drove me away from the RL, not to mention the many things it DOESN'T offer, was a severe rattling from the back shelf (less than 100mi on the OD if i recall...closer to 60mi or so). Must be a "high quality" rattle in your book...too bad my M hasn't developed any "high quality", or any rattle, in the 5 years i've owned it.

And this isn't just my opinion, read your reviews and precious mags and edmunds.com, etc. No where does it say the M is in such low build or material quality that it is more comparable to a TL. It's only your opinion, but even opinions can be WRONG.

So before you open your big mouth and pull the bullshit that you continuously spill out of it, know what you're talking about.

Oh wait, i forgot, your modus operandi is to spew bullshit to make Honda look good no matter how utterly WRONG you are...carry on then

Hapa DC5

Just remember he was anti-Honda a year ago and stated several times Acura is not tier 1, but now it is better then MB, BMW, Infiniti....

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Thats because he went out and got himself a new TSX. I wouldnt be surprised to see him sway his decision once again when he gets his next new car.

Shift_Acura

What a bunch of bickering on this thread

Isn't it part of the Moderators job to fix this?

Legend2TL

Volume, manufacturing costs, and profit are extremely tricky when it comes to auto manufacturing. There's a awful lot at play sometimes it almost makes no sense.

Case in point 3 decades ago when GM and Toyota did NUMMI to co-product the Corolla and Nova in California, Toyota manufacturing engineers and managers insisted a separate conveyor line be installed for the doors AND the doors be removed after painiting and reinstalled later on. GM counterparts thought this would add cost for no zero added value. Toyota showed GM their production timeline for the assembly line and behold their overall time was less at the benefit of easier installation of the interior components and reduced quality defects due to doors being damaged and the workers preferred it also. Nowadays almost everyone removes the doors after painting.

Getting back to the RL, I had a Acura moment the other night maybe something they were hoping for. I was in Baltimore and saw a couple get out of their new Acura sedan that I could only see the side. At first I thought it was a 2G TSX then as the valet got in an pulled away I could see it was a 2G RL MMC. Perhaps the intent for the styling is coming true in that there is alot of styling symmetry between the models sorta similar to what BMW and MB have in the C/E/S and 3/5/7. It's one consistent theme that's been lacking since Acura got started with it's models.

Legend2TL

The answer to this question may be supply chain management, why build the SH-AWD 3.7L transmission in both 5At and 6AT. It might be easier to use the 6AT shutdown the 5AT line as soon as possible.

SpicyMikey

Not sure. I think a moderators job is to try and keep the threads on topic and "police" against inappropriate or illegal discussion. At what point does debate and disagreement become bickering? Are we bickering now?

Personally I don't mind the back and forth at all. I learn things here reading peoples debates. There are a lot of good contributors here.

The things that make me roll my eyes are all the "one liners" that people post when they really have nothing to contribute on the topic but want to say something. It adds zero value to the discussion and inevitably triggers a response from someone that starts the bickering. You know the one liners. They generally go something like this:
- The TL's rear end looks like a _______
- The RL is an overpriced failure and disgrace to Acura
- The Acura power plenum looks like a buck tooth _____
- The only thing the new Acura grill is good for is to open my can of _____
- Acura is a loser brand because they don't have RWD and V8

I could go on. But that's the worst part of if to me. We're all guilty of it. Probably me also at times. But I really personally try and avoid those type of posts. I wish others would too.

SpicyMikey

But its still used widely on Honda models. You could be right. It might have a cost saving angle, but I think its more to try and match up to it's competition AND improve MPG for CAFE compliance.

It's a good move but unfortunately there are some brands doing 7 gear ATs so they are still behind the curve a bit

alex2364

They are behind the curve a lot. They just started coming out with 6AT, while Mercedes has 7AT in the E-Class and BMW has 8AT in the 5-Series. Also, they have nothing against the DSG/DCT/PDK.

SpicyMikey

^^ True. I assume/expect Acura to introduce a new dual clutch tranny with the next RL, but that's a good 2+ years away. In the meantime the lack of such a transmission hurts them I agree.

EDIT: In general I find the tranny in my RL and MDX to be unacceptably sluggish with gear shifts. I don't need a dual clutch setup to be happy, but the gear shift time when pushing hard is slower than most brands I've tried. From the earlier talk yesterday about 0-60 time, it seems this new 6AT may have really improved 0-60 time more than I would expect from just an extra gear. I haven't tested it myself to prove it, but I'm guessing that might be due to faster shifting. That would be a good improvement if it's true. Anyone driving the new 6AT that can comment?

phile

what you and other people are doing isn't bickering.

what SSFTSX does is. And it's because he posts the same things over and over again, there is NO changing his opinion, not sure why people even try. But what he does is bring in comments from out of left field that just boggles anyone who tries to follow his logic, but yet people still respond to them. it just takes over the thread and really ruins it.

fsttyms1

And you had to post something non related to the thread why? At least our discussion is about acura. We arent bickering, we are discussing.

fsttyms1

Highly doubtful for the fact to shut down the 5speed line as most of honda still uses it.

I just find it stupid that honda continues to evolve the RL, put development costs associated and time into it to merely place a bandaid on the car when they know they need to get a new model out there. the 6 speed while a welcome upgrade should have been on the MMC, By time the new car comes out they will still be behind as most every one will have had the 6spped for some time and evolving into the next tech while honda will just be starting out. I bet Ford gets DSG (or something similar) on more models before honda does.

SSFTSX

Forget about last generation TL. TL has moved way up market. It is cheap because it is not imported from Japan and has greater Volume. Infiniti M is bargain basement luxury with even deeper discounts than TL.

here is the data for M56 Sport. Look at its handling and NVH numbers. Should it be even called Sport or Luxury?. Its handling and NVH are no better than MDX/ZDX.
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...e75d799033.pdf

TL is not a luxury in same sense as M but it is Sport sedan and it has it own quality characteristics. and remember TL is 2008 launched. it hasnt gotten MMC like MDX/ZDX with suspension and low torque engine to make it more quieter. Infiniti is 2011.




For Sport sedan with summer performance tires TL has better ride quality than G37. So atleast it should be equal to M56 Sport if not better.

Colin

Do they build any other V6 Hondas in Japan that still use the 5AT tranny? I'm guessing that there are some production efficiencies to be gained by switching to the 6AT for the 3.7 + SH-AWD application.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

mrdeeno

Like i said, spewing bullshit is your modus operandi.

You take objective 'DATA', then compare it to subjective COMMENTS. Seriously, WHERE does it say that the TL's "quality" or "nvh" or any of the other shit you spew makes it a midsize luxury competitor? I read over those articles and as much as they like the TL, no where does it mention that the TL should be up against midsize luxury models.

I don't even know why i bother arguing with you since you are so WRONG and as many others have said, there's no convicing you otherwise. I guess what they say about crazy people applies to you too...they don't know they're crazy like you don't know you're wrong, and that's putting it nicely since I'm sure I'm not alone here when I say I have some really choice names you deserve to be called, but for the sake of civility, we'll just leave it at you're WRONG.

Oh, BTW, this comment is from the C&D article you referenced:
Wait...why is C&D comparing it to the G37?!?! The TL should be compared with the M/E/GS/5!!!! Please tell me it isn't so, an article YOU referenced to support your assertion that the TL should be competing in the midsize luxury segment is comparing the TL to near-luxury models. That's quite a dilemma!!!

neuronbob

Hey mrdeeno, just do what the rest of us have done and ignore SSFTSX.

Back on topic....I am amazed that the RL has garnered such impassioned discussion, both here and at the TOV. That tells me there is a need and want for such a car.

I have nothing else to add here, so I'll just post a pic of my beloved RL at Pike's Peak--it's my favorite pic from my RL days:



Here's hoping Acura can get off its duff and make some improvements to what was a pretty darned good car. 6AT is at least a positive direction.

phile

pre-facelift RL exterior > post-facelift RL exterior

But post-facelift RL additional tech & wood center console > pre-facelift RL

However changing the wood veneer to faux wood dash trim in the base-model RL is pretty stupid, considering the base model still costs a whopping 45K

SSFTSX

They are comparing because US built TL is priced like entrly level imports BMW 3, Audi A4, Lexus IS. why do u think all those auto manfucturing done in US by import brands. It is too make car cheaper.
what exactly is M37? same G37 engine, transmission and worse handling and NVH. Just because it offer V8 does not make it automatically luxury car.
ALL i am describing objective data. TL has better ride than G37 based on Magazine tests. TL has better handling than G37. TL has better NVH than G37. Unless you have objective data to prove that M is more luxurios than TL. Please post it. and that include engine noise, handling, wind nosie, seat comfort, better built quality, better electronics.
and Infiniti M is not much upgrade over G37.


so if TL is better than G37 in luxury. so why it isnt better than M?

TL is without compromises. It pulls the same performance on All season tires as much smaller competitors do with Summer performance tires and sport suspension. Infinit M is way down the toilet in handling and NVH.




TL with 19inch summer performance tires has better ride than competitor with all season 18inch setup. It is head and shoulder above G37

mrdeeno

Yeah, i just had a G37 loaner while getting my car tinted at the dealership.

Guess what, my OLD m45 is head and shoulders more refined than the 2011 G37 loaner I had. So tell me how my M45 sport is MORE refined than a 2011 G37, yet based on one editors opinion, the M37/56, which is MORE refined than the last M, is less refined than the G37? Edmunds said that Infinit's IPL competes with AMG. Must be true since they are so credible.

Let's see...you referenced C&D, so I'll do the same...
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review
If i had the time or wanted to put in the effort, I can find a lot more OPINIONS from magazine editors and reviewers to support my assertion. But guess what else? I actually DRIVE cars and have my own EXPERIENCE to base it from. And I don't make shit up about how a vaporware TSX-SH-AWD-V6 outhandles an M3.

Instead of reading reviews and OPINIONS of editors on websites and magazines, try driving these cars for once instead of being fanboi pulling bullshit out his ass all the time. Get over yourself.

End of off-topic conversations with people who FAIL.

Legend2TL

I was thinking of the 3.7L units mated to the AT. But then I didn't think of what Colin mentioned and that is where the transaxle is built.

Also I forgot the MDX had the 6AT with the same gear ratio's and final drive as the ZDX. When the 2011 RL comes out I'll have to see if it has the same ratio's but probably a different final drive due to tire sizes.

But after thinking about it IMO the main reason for the 6AT for the RL is simply prestige to get it up to similar cars in it's class.

I've driven the MB, BMW and Lexus 7AT and 8AT gearboxes at their driving events a few years ago, and quite frankly I think the 8AT are pointless and the 7AT still hunted alot.

A 5AT looks bad in a $50K car, but imagine it in a $200K car! When MB brought out the 7AT they did NOT use it for the upper AMG twin turbo V12 cars. They had to use the 5AT since the 7AT could not be strengthed enough to handle the 700+ftlb of torque which even that was ECU detuned slightly. Then again a 7AT for a car with that much torque also makes little sense

Legend2TL

The cost of putting the 6AT into the RL is probably extremely small compared to design/development costs of a new platform. New die and forming tooling for sheetmetal, chassis, and major metal components runs into 9 figure range. Although much cheaper all other tooling also adds up (injection molded plastics,...)

I agree it's a bandaid but I it's a improvement none the less. Kinda surprised the RL did not have electric folding mirrors before.

fsttyms1

I never said that a new car would be cheaper. Just wondering why they would waste the time and development on something (the car) that is supposedly on its way out. I think they are doing this in hopes it buys them more time to actually figure out how to design the new car.

SSFTSX

First drive is not equal to Road test.
In first drive there is no hard data for NVH dba, handling and not on comparision level with similar tire adn suspension setup.
TL ride has been compared to G37, A4, BMW 3 and it is best of all of them.

TL data is done by multiple reviewers on different types of tires.
TL should be nearly equal to M with softer tires in ride and surpass in NVH levels.
I am still waiting for your data on M that shows it is better than TL in Luxury. better seats nope, better music system nope (what is ELS ranking), better suspension nope, better navigation system nope. better fit and finish nope.
They can be equal but not better.
What will happen with next MMC of TL is that it will get 6AT, lower rpm torque engine, more advnced ANC and sound deadening materials of ZDX/MDX, frontal aerodynamic changes just like MMC Accord that will make it quieter, faster and lower fuel consumption at highway speeds. and possibly less clutter dash with quality closer to ZDX.
There is no point in comparing 2009 TL with 2011 M as they have two year difference. TL has already set benchmark for quietness with 5 speed Auto and 6MT (higher rpm cruising) with 6AT rpm, engine torque will be lower and broader. so the quietness will be even more. and performance should be in 5.2 to 5.6 second ballpark for 0-60. A second faster than 5AT.
M is its first year of sale at bargain basement price for new Japanese built Car. Its only path is downhill from here. as no update can fix its short comings at reasonable price.
thats why i said previously too soon to declare TL failure but M is already a failure.

mrdeeno

Yup, you're right. I give in. The M is such a dismal failure and the TL outclasses it in everything. You've proved it so clearly I don't know why anyone is arguing with you. You are so insightful you should be given awards for how well you present your arguments and make logical and valid comparisons without making huge leaps or assumptions from the stone cold objective facts you provide.

Fanboi, go away. You've done enough damage to this thread and yourself and make people who like acuras look bad because of how stupid your posts are.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

silver3.5

i find the last couple of pages of this thread to be quite fun to read; it definitely adds some insight on how to argue from a different perspective based on bits and pieces of comments from magazine articles and not as a whole. from this, i congratulate SSFTSX for trying very hard to convince others that the TL is superior to other cars in its class, ie. 3-series, A4, IS350, C-class, etc.... siting sources we all are well aware of. i like this kind of argument bec. it makes you think that you can win, knowing fare well that you're just fooling yourself just to see what the other side thinks or reacts. if i was to purposely irritate someone, i would go SSFTSX's route also ( and believe me, i've done it in the past many times). and you all know what....??? it's working like a charm! on the other hand, you lost respect and credibility from your friends, peers, co-workers, even family members. but on a forum such as this, who cares. therefore, i say....SSFTSX, give it all you got! it's fun and entertaining to read nonsense comments after comments on a boring day at work!

SpicyMikey

When you are in the right mood (like a slow friday afternoon) I agree it's entertaining But probably not so much when you're then one locking horns with the other guy. At some point you have to let go and spoil all the fun for the spectators

silver3.5

you are definitely right on. if i was to join the argument or is involved in the argument, my sense of humor would not be there for the other guy esp. when he's just pulling crap out of nowhere!

i subscribed to all the major car magazines (C&D, Motortrend, Automobile, R/T), read all the comparisons from various online sites (carconnection, edmunds, insideline, autospies, etc...) and I can't remember when the TL won any comparison tests. ???

SpicyMikey

I certainly won't defend it as a drivers car against some of those being argued against. But I own two (a 2009 and 2010) right now and they are very good cars for the under $40k price point if you can get past the front end grill. Although it's not my daily driver, the cars are in the family and in my driveway. I drive them now and then so I speak from experience of owning the car not only from reading magazines. Specs and a quick test drive dont always tell the complete story. We can nitpick it (it's not perfect by any means) but its got lots of tech (with the tech package), good interior room, a good trunk, quiet and refined ride, good acceleration, good quality build comparable to cars even a bit more expensive. As I said, it's not perfect, it's not a 3 series in it's handling by any stretch, and I wouldn't buy one for myself, but it's not deserving of some of the trashing it gets.

By the way, Edmunds ranked the stereo tops in it's class

Colin

^^ The 6MT version is starting to earn more positive reviews from an enthusiasts point of view. You might be interested in checking out the upcoming (as in now) Speed Channel Test Drive with Tommy Kendell and Dario Franchitti. ('ll be able to see it when I get home today)

https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-2009-2014-123/speed-channels-test-drive-2011-acura-tl-788198/

docboy

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews..._s4/index.html

I'm sure you've seen this recent comparison of the 2010 TL 6MT vs 2010 Audi S4. From what I've read, it appears to be a tie. Not too shabby IMHO.

"It's beside the point to declare a winner or loser when comparing two cars that fall into such different hands in the real world. As that most rabid of enthusiasts, you already have your own prejudices and opinions based on the brands alone, not to mention the countries from which they hail. If we could combine the Audi's good looks, brakes, and tupercharged V-6 with the Acura's steering, handling, and all-wheel-drive system, we'd have discovered luxury car nirvana for the enthusiast driver. In the absence of that elusive hybrid, we walk away from these two wolves in sheepish skins knowing that they are absolute equals in one way: the ability to reassure us that there is, in fact, life after Evo"

The TL 6MT is a solid vehicle in its price point, and I find it practical in terms of driver and rear passenger comfort for the family, traditional high Acura reliability/resale, AWD for performance and winter handling, and tech goodies. It's a well built car, and has its pros/cons like any other vehicle. Yes it has polarizing styling that has been discussed ad nauseum and it's not perfect, but neither are the 3/5 series, A/S4, G37x, C class, IS, etc.

MHO.

SpicyMikey

Yea but it's not RWD, it's weight distribution will have you plowing all over the track, it doesn't have a performance variant with a v8 400+ hp, etc. It's never going to garnish the respect from car enthusiast magazines or the typical crowd that visits boards like this. And it doesn't deserve it.

But for those who don't consider that important, or even desirable, then its a hell of a car for the money. Quite frankly, it's better than my RL (that's my RL reference to make the post relevant to the thread ). It's more responsive off the line than my RL , better tech inside, more comfortable front seating,. BIGGER back seat than my RL (or at least it feels that way).

It's a sporty looking comfortable sedan that just makes a great daily driver M-F and a fun weekend car to take 4 to the beach in comfort, etc. For what it is, it's admirable

SSFTSX

I never said TL is better than M in ever aspect but TL has more positives than negatives when it is compared to Infiniti M. and TL shortcomings can be rectified in MMC within reasonable price point like under $50K. Acura has already implemeted some of those improvements in ZDX. look at amount of praise on long term TL-SH-AWD at Motortrend. They clearly said Infinti M has none of the handling and braking quality of TL.

Car is well proportioned for 18-19inch rim size.






situtation with Infiniti M is practically hopeless at this price point. It can only be improved when super expensive MB engines are imported to Japan. The car has super size fenders wheel arches that need 20inch rims for styling. At 20inch you can practically forget about handling/ride quality.

mrdeeno

Hey, i agree with you. Jesus didn't tap, but it seems that I have to! <tap> <tap>..stop the fight mazagati!

That's it. Tomorrow morning, i'm driving down the Acura dealership to trade in my M for a TL. Man, I wanted to wait for that TSX AWD-V6 that outhandles the M3, but I can't bear the shame! Hope they give me more than $10k for it seeing that it has such terrible resale value and its so hopeless.

If i'm lucky, maybe they'll let me get an RL instead...if they have one in stock...damn you limited production!!! (there's my RL plug for the thread!!)