VTEC Racer

Don't bother? Is that what we should be telling Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc...? Whatever car they come out with, if it's not better than the LFA then don't bother? If this car outperformed the LFA, would you accept a price tag that is also higher than the LFA's? Why even the LFA as a target? It's not the best at anything.

ttribe

Please tell us you see the difference between comparing Honda as a company with Toyota as a company and encouraging Honda to meet the bar set by Toyota with the LFA, and comparing Honda to Ferrari, et al.

Moog-Type-S

Point is that there is a strong chance this car won't be a true HALO car...but Honda will try to sell it as one.

Lexus put everything out there and created a true HALO car.

The companies you mentioned have nothing to prove.

Lexus did, and now Honda does as well.

Go big Honda, or go home.

Moog-Type-S

He is a fanboi....he can't figure that out.

Yumcha

Vapor. Car.


Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

Colin

I really hope you're wrong on that. I'd love to see 90% of the performance at 50% of the cost. That would require real engineering prowess and be closer to Mr. Honda's philosophy of "doing more with less"

VTEC Racer

A halo car is something that shows the world what you are capable of. Aside for us, who the hell knows what an LFA is or will even see one on the road? Cars like the R8 and GT-R are halo cars. The public knows what they are and they can be seen and recognized on the road.

Honda proved itself when it changed the way Ferrari makes Ferrari's. It shook the entire industry and introduced incredible technology for the time. It recieved an endless amount of awards and was even acclaimed as one of the Best Cars Ever. It served as influence for the design of the McClaren F1 and was tested by a world champion F1 driver.

You think Lexus has proved itself? The LFA is a car that introduced no significant new technology, isn't the best at anything it does, and is a loss for every single one sold. You are right, Lexus did go balls out. What we got was a car that isn't the best at anything yet costs substantially more than other established cars in it's class. If they were capable of building an all-out car, they should have built something that performed just as good as it does, but that was actually profitable. Ferrari, Lambo, and Porsche do it for a living, why couldn't Lexus? The impact the LFA made in the industry was the equivalent of someone clearing their throat in a corporate meeting.

Yes I'm a fanboi. I'm a fan of Honda. That's why Im here. What's your point? I wish you would at least answer ONE of the questions I asked in my previous post. Instead, it's just the same old fluff.

ttribe

Good grief, we're talking about cars, not a potential cure for cancer. It's one thing to be passionate, it's something else altogether to be over-the-top with one's defense of an opinion about C-A-R-S.

VTEC Racer

I made a statement of facts and my opinions. What was over the top about it? You make it seem like I took an elementary school hostage or something. I'm curious to know so for the sake of going off topic, please PM me and let me know. Aren't we all here because of C-A-R-S?

ttribe

[sigh] Not necessary. You two can have at it if you want, but you're clearly talking past one another. It's obvious to this reader that Moog's point is that Honda's done nothing in the last 10 years to show "what it's capable of", and that this is a particularly salient point.

Studebaker was once "capable of" making fine cars, but that didn't end well for them. Is that where Honda's headed? Stubbornly holding to the accomplishments of the former NSX as evidence in your argument comes off as ardent polemics rather than discussion of opinion. But hey, if you think this hill is worth dying on, be my guest.

KillerG

dont bother if its front engined. we dont want that shit.

fsttyms1

Why? It can still be considered mid engine but up front

VTEC Racer

My arguement was that Honda has proved itself. I made it clear. I'm not saying they should hold on to the past. If anything, I am an advocate of building upon what served as your strengths in the past. It's not being stubborn, it was merely a response to Moogs coment that Honda needs to prove itself. Unfortunately, his memory of Honda's past appears to be equivalent to a goldfish's long-term memory. I'd love to have a healthy, mature, debate with the guy. Unfortunately he hasn't showed anything of the sort other than just constantly posting baseless two-word comments.

ttribe

Okay, but you're still blowing past the most important point - Honda has done little or nothing in the past 10 years to prove it can STILL be relevant in the performance arena.

VTEC Racer

Yes, Honda hasn't come out with a new sports car since the S2000. However, the S2000's performance was relevant until the day it was discontinued. Honda has only been without a sports car for the past two years. Even when the NSX was discontinued back in 2005 or so, what import that cost less was also capable of outperforming the NSX on the track? Same question can be asked for the S2000. Even if the S2000 just came out today, it would still pretty much outperform anything from Japan save the GT-R and LFA. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's very misleading to generalize the past ten years with what has happened in the past two.

ttribe

But the ongoing criticism of HMC is that it has been resting on its laurels.

Yes, both the S2000 and the NSX were great in their respective day, but at the end of their model lives they were getting surpassed by their competitors. The updates to both of those cars were extremely minor and the perception is that they were simply allowed to die on the vine, so to speak.

Why create positive momentum in a market only to let it go? If it's not profitable, fine, say so and get out; but this on-again-off-again thing is maddening to a consumer like me. 18 years of Hondas and Acuras and then...nothing at all desirable for me. Nothing.

Aside from the dearth of lasting commitment to a performance line, I can't even figure out where H&A are trying to position themselves in the market. Are they content to simply create appliances with 4-wheels? If so, then stop teasing the consumer with the prospect of a "class leading" halo car. If H&A are going to compete...I mean REALLY compete...in the performance arena, then they need to commit to it wholeheartedly (a'la Toyota with the LFA). None of this half-way crap. It's put up or shut up time.

VTEC Racer

Come on now. I just asked you a legit question. What import cars could outperform the S2000 and NSX for less money at the time they were discontinued?

I have to make the point again that up until two years ago, Homda still had a relevant sports car. It's ironic that right when Honda has no sports car in its lineup for the first time in like 20 years, the industry releases cars like the R8, GT-R, LFA, SLS, etc... A literal onslaught if sports cars. This onslaught, IMO, has created this illusion that Honda hasn't been doing anything when in reality, that is false.

Again with the LFA thing... It would be great to have performance like that, but are you willing to pay for it? Clearly not many people are because Lexus is still struggling to sell them. Idon't want an LFA. The next NSX needs to have awesome performance but at a reasonable price. The technology needs to be reasonable enough to one day trickle down to other cars. What the hell in the LFA can trickle down to a Toyota or Lexus and still have a reasonable price? It sure isn't gonna be the carbon fiber frame or the V10 engine. Again, it needs to be more attainable so it can be seen on the streets more often so it can serve it's purpose as a halo. Like Colin said, 90% of the performance at 50% of the cost.

VTEC Racer

Soooo yeah... about that article...

I wonder how realistic the 2012 rumor is. Maybe there is more of a connection to the Avengers movie than we really thought?

AZuser

Not sure what you mean by outperform. Assumed you meant around a track. A quick search revealed lap times around Nurburgring with same driver (Horst von Saurma). Tried to keep as many variables as similar as possible. They should all be around the same price as S2000 (or less).


Honda S2000 = 8:39
Mazda Speed 3 = 8:39
Volkswagen Golf Mk5 VW R32 = 8:36
Nissan 350Z = 8:26
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VII = 8:25
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VI = 8:24
Chevrolet Cobalt SS = 8:22

VTEC Racer

Thanks for looking that up. The S2000 was released 12 years ago and the number of cars that can outperform it at the Nurburgring for the same or less price can be counted on one hand. I think that says a lot.

I gotta question the Cobalt though. Slower than an S2000 in a straight line, heavier, and longer braking distance. Not to mention FWD. Something tells me it was modified. Unless it was raining when the S2000 was tested and cool and sunny when the Cobalt was tested.

ttribe

Huh? Where did you hear that?

VTEC Racer

From LEXUS. They moved allocation from other parts of the world to the U.S. because they were struggling to sell the complete lot. The extra that we got allocated to the U.S. are still available. Almost two years later.

ttribe

Interesting. I honestly thought those suckers were all sold out. Article here: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...de-a-sales-dud

Learn something new every day.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

If you think sales figures are the key point for this car from Lexus's standpoint you're completely way off. In the end they aren't going to care if they sold every single one of them. Even if they have to lower the price and sell them at a loss, they will because ....

This car's purpose was to attract the attention of enthusiasts. To show other manufacturers that Lexus isn't only about luxury, that they are capable of creating a high level sports car to rival the Ferrari's, Lambo's, Porshche's and many other sports cars of the world. It was a research campaign for their engineers and builders to learn what they can achieve and hopefully utilize in future Lexus vehicles. It was meant to be a marketing campaign on the car show circuit and attract people to the brand. You can't measure how much sales this car may have brought to them from people that may not have liked lexus before they saw this car and now do. This is why so many of the luxury manufacturers make cars that 90% of can't afford. It's to attract us to the brand and make us love them and want a piece of them.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Ive said it time and time again.

NSX = New Sports Experiment

If it is to truly be a sports car, I dont care what the layout is. Put the engine on the roof. Make it a hybrid. Make it run on Skittles and cat piss for all I care. Just make it a true sports car.

That said, vapor car.

VTEC Racer

Obviously sales figure are not important for a car like the LFA, especially considering each one is sold at a loss. If it was about sales figures, then Lexus wouldn't have limited the number of units built to 500 or whatever it was set it.

I totally get what you are saying about the LFA. I know I come off as not liking the car, which is false. I think it's fantastic. However, it's the execution that I disagree with. To me, I just don't see anything innovative coming from the LFA. Yes, I just said that. What does the LFA have that has never been done before? What did it do to change the industry? Am I missing something here cause I honestly can't think of anything. And I also believe it doesn't meet its intended purpose of being a halo car. A halo car shouldn't be about attracting just the enthusiasts. Enthusiasts already know exactly what their manufacturer of choice is all about. The point of a halo car is to get the average person to say "WOW!". How many average people have heard of an LFA? How many average people are going to see an LFA? If marketing was the reason, how many commercials have you seen devoted to the LFA, maybe three? The other type of marketing is based on track events and things of the sort, which focus mainly on enthusiasts, who again already know about the car. As I stated earlier, even the technology in the LFA is to much to trickle down to a legitimate production car that an average to semi-wealthy enthusiast could buy. What from the LFA could easily trickle down the lineup two or three years from now? Lets say some average person does see this car and they walk into their Lexus dealer. First of all, the Lexus dealer won't have one because they are not stocked. Second, they will shit in their pants when they find out that is costs $375,000 for a two year lease only. Third, lets say they end up getting a normal Lexus. What current Lexus has some LFA DNA in it? Nothing in the Lexus lineup was influenced by the LFA, design wise or hardware wise. It's a one-off car that says absolutely nothing about the brand. Yes, their slogan was something like the LFA is everything you thought we weren't. However, everything minus the IS-F is everything we know they are, soft riding, uninspiring luxury cars.

This is again why I say the NSX needs to be closer to reality. If it is going to serve as a successful halo car, it needs to be in line with the Audi R8. The execution doesn't need to be the same, but price wise, they should be very close IMO. If they can do LFA performance for a substantially lower price, then go for it. But I think we all know better than that.

VTEC Racer

Wow. Thanks for that article. It couldn't have been any more spot on. Funny how it talks about the same things I was also ranting about.

Legend2TL

That didn't surprise me at all. Similar thing happened to the Jaguar XJ220 and McLaren F1, both never made their intended production run numbers. In hindsight McLaren should have completed their inteneded run since the value of F1's have only increased in time and they could have probably sold all of them for a profit. XJ220's are the bargain basement of high end exotics. A former colleague's brother in law (a neurosurgeon) bought one for far less than original price.

Legend2TL

, exactly the Honda way doing more for less. Same as the NSX having a V6 compared to the Ferrari 348 having a V8 and the S2000 having a I4 compared to the 6's of it's competition.

I was kinda surprised the new NSX proto had a V10 since that went against the grain but I guess the F1 marketing connection may have influenced just like BMW did on the V10 for the M5 and M6.

Legend2TL

I agree with most of what you said but the LFA was poorly marketed so IMO only a very small percentage of the auto buying market even knew about it. At least the NSX was a more mass market car.

To me for a auto maker to get into a very limited production exotic with no previous heritage or pedigree is foolish. It's a impulse function attempt into a very coveted market space where the results are mediocre at best.

Legend2TL

Best trickle down car tech story I know. In the midst of their F1 engine program in the 80's and 90's Honda developed a special wide range O2 sensor for their normally aspirated RA121E V12 racing motor to improve the performance. The technology for that sensor was then adopted into the Civic VX so it's engine could take advantage of the wide dynamic range and beat many diesel engines in it's class for fuel efficiency.

Ceramic coatings on the main and rod bearings in the F1 engines were also adopted into Honda engines as well.

phile

i kinda like that. Like i'd love to see a big hulking V8 with astronomical numbers just so we can say "finally". but the thought of the NSX with a V6 and really lightweight, high fuel economy, and good performance (I don't expect the NSX to rule the world, i think even the current one with its sub 5-second 0-60 performance is very fast) - that would actually be a true accomplishment and says more about the NSX and Honda in general than anything else.

dom

Thanks for keeping it civilized guys, good debate.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

A company has to start somewhere. You can't fault them for trying. By no means am I a fan of Lexus, I'm just saying that they are trying and they actually kept to their word and produced something.

ttribe

+1

Invisible

Not everyone can be an actual owner of something like a Lexus LFA like you are.

Moog-Type-S

I still can't believe how many people in this thread still have no idea why a car company builds a HALO car.

Think, people....think.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

Well at least there is no talk about the LFA and other exotic car door latches

What Moog is trying to say is simple. Put your best effort in it or just don't try it. The original NSX was their best effort and history shows an incredible effort. The GT-R & LFA are now in that same category.

They even claimed the new V-10 prototype NSX would beat the GTR and LFA around the Ring. Now they choose to dumb it down? Don't name it NSX then.

EVO magazine just picked the LFA over the Ferrari 599 GTO, some of the highest praise a car can receive. Lexus has shown this car to everyone from possible buyers to just regular enthusiasts. Who else does that? Sly got a great opportunity with the car.

The LFA has been voted to have one of the best sounds of all time. The carbon fiber construction has already trickled down to the IS F road race options. The CT new GS also have LFA influenced engineering already. The LFA has its carbon fiber construction in house, not outsourced. Most reviews agree it is by far the greatest vehicles Japan has ever produced. It is a car to be understood by auto geeks. If you rate cars by HP rating, then this car is lost on you. It ran a 7:14 at the Nurburgring.

http://www.germancarforum.com/intern...lexus-lfa.html

There is way to much criticism about the LFA but at least you CAN criticize it since it is produced.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

I did? When did this happen?

ttribe

I think that was Yumcha.