Acura: Development and Technology News
12-23-2010, 08:17 PM
#2801
6G TLX-S
HondaOnWORKS, you're still confused.
"Entry level luxury" is not true luxury.
Acura is never considered to be a true luxury brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (by the auto industry, not by you or me).
Price has everything to do with luxury. For instance, people enjoy spending $20K on a non-diamond Rolex watch because Rolex is a luxury brand. But these people and others will never spend $20K on a non-diamond Seiko watch even though the Seiko has all the deep-sea resistance and timer/counter functions as the Rolex. Why ? Simply because Seiko is not a luxury brand, and doesn't justify spending that much on.
For a luxury brand, buyers are paying more for less. But for a non-luxury brand, buyers are paying less and getting more. This is the golden rule.
Like you said, the TSX is in the same league as the A4, C-class, and 3-series; but Acura dare not to sell the TSX at the same premium price level as all the latters. Because if it does, no one is gonna buy the TSX, just like the ill-fated $50K RL. The Acura-branded TSX just doesn't justify spending so much money on. But buyers are more than willing to spend the same premium money on the luxury-branded A4, C-class, and 3-series.
It's like you have this chunk of money to pick a car. For this amount of money, you can max-out on the TL, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class. And for this bigger amount of money, you can max-out on the RL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class. In effect, the Acura brand is offering more for less money, rather than offering less for more money as in those true luxury auto brands.
Till the time buyers are willing to buy the TSX at about the same premium price as the A4, 3-series, and C-class; willing to buy the TL at about the same premium price as the A6, E-class, and 5-series; then the Acura brand is considered (by the auto industry, not by you or me) to be true-luxury as Audi, MB, and BMW.
"Entry level luxury" is not true luxury.
Acura is never considered to be a true luxury brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (by the auto industry, not by you or me).
Price has everything to do with luxury. For instance, people enjoy spending $20K on a non-diamond Rolex watch because Rolex is a luxury brand. But these people and others will never spend $20K on a non-diamond Seiko watch even though the Seiko has all the deep-sea resistance and timer/counter functions as the Rolex. Why ? Simply because Seiko is not a luxury brand, and doesn't justify spending that much on.
For a luxury brand, buyers are paying more for less. But for a non-luxury brand, buyers are paying less and getting more. This is the golden rule.
Like you said, the TSX is in the same league as the A4, C-class, and 3-series; but Acura dare not to sell the TSX at the same premium price level as all the latters. Because if it does, no one is gonna buy the TSX, just like the ill-fated $50K RL. The Acura-branded TSX just doesn't justify spending so much money on. But buyers are more than willing to spend the same premium money on the luxury-branded A4, C-class, and 3-series.
It's like you have this chunk of money to pick a car. For this amount of money, you can max-out on the TL, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class. And for this bigger amount of money, you can max-out on the RL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class. In effect, the Acura brand is offering more for less money, rather than offering less for more money as in those true luxury auto brands.
Till the time buyers are willing to buy the TSX at about the same premium price as the A4, 3-series, and C-class; willing to buy the TL at about the same premium price as the A6, E-class, and 5-series; then the Acura brand is considered (by the auto industry, not by you or me) to be true-luxury as Audi, MB, and BMW.
12-23-2010, 08:29 PM
#2802
So maybe in the future when the Acura line-up is big enough, then it can be "similar" to the Audi brand. But definitely not now with the Acura's current small line-up.
I think you're confused. Honda has always WANTED Acura to be it's luxury (especially Tier-1) division, but till now still unable to do so. The auto industry has never considered that the Acura brand as a true luxury brand. A couple months ago, even the Honda CEO openly admitted that it has given up the effort to project Acura to be the so-called "Tier-1" luxury brand. So there is no chance that the Acura brand will sit amongst Audi, BMW, MB, and Lexus in the near future.
Selling plenty of cars doesn't mean the brand is luxury. Hyundai sells lots of cars too. The Hyundai Genesis has lots of luxury feature too. But this still doesn't make the Hyundai brand a luxury brand. A brand is considered luxury when buyers are willing to buy it's products at a premium price.
Till the time the TSX is priced similar to the A4, 3-series, and C-class; the TL priced similar to the A6, 5-series, and E-class; the RL selling well at over $50K; then the Acura brand is considered a true luxury brand in the auto world.
I think you're confused. Honda has always WANTED Acura to be it's luxury (especially Tier-1) division, but till now still unable to do so. The auto industry has never considered that the Acura brand as a true luxury brand. A couple months ago, even the Honda CEO openly admitted that it has given up the effort to project Acura to be the so-called "Tier-1" luxury brand. So there is no chance that the Acura brand will sit amongst Audi, BMW, MB, and Lexus in the near future.
Selling plenty of cars doesn't mean the brand is luxury. Hyundai sells lots of cars too. The Hyundai Genesis has lots of luxury feature too. But this still doesn't make the Hyundai brand a luxury brand. A brand is considered luxury when buyers are willing to buy it's products at a premium price.
Till the time the TSX is priced similar to the A4, 3-series, and C-class; the TL priced similar to the A6, 5-series, and E-class; the RL selling well at over $50K; then the Acura brand is considered a true luxury brand in the auto world.
Actually you proved me point about Audi nicely when you said that a luxury brand isn't a true brand unless people are willing to pay a premium price for it. Their sales prove that since people are not willing to pay a premium price in large quantities for their products, so I find it amusing when people grouped them with BMW, MB, and Lexus. They still struggle to sell in the $50k+ market just like Acura and Infiniti.
Last edited by smarty666; 12-23-2010 at 08:31 PM.
12-23-2010, 08:40 PM
#2803
I would disagree that entry level luxury is not luxury, maybe not high end opulent luxury, but by the definition of the word itself the TSX would be considered luxury, just like the C, 3, IS, G25, A4, etc since it is a refinement of living (more specifically driving) then what is necessary to live (aka drive).
By the way, your criteria and definition and factors that affect what luxury is are pretty screwed up
. Its not one sole determinant and your focus is much to centered around price. Price has something to do with it, but not as much as your claiming it does.
Last edited by smarty666; 12-23-2010 at 08:43 PM.
12-23-2010, 09:15 PM
#2804
I think the point that he and I were trying to make is that in this country, Audi is not a tier-1 brand. Just b/c they offer certain models doesn't snap the fingers and make them tier-1. They have offerings similar to BMW, MB, and Lexus yet no where near the image, recognition, sales, service, etc that those 3 do so they suffer from the same problems that Acura and Infiniti do yet they offer a more complete line-up. So what does that tell you, Audi is not any more successful in this country then Acura has been despite having a more complete line-up so having one doesn't mean jack squat if you can't sell or implement it correctly.
Actually you proved me point about Audi nicely when you said that a luxury brand isn't a true brand unless people are willing to pay a premium price for it. Their sales prove that since people are not willing to pay a premium price in large quantities for their products, so I find it amusing when people grouped them with BMW, MB, and Lexus. They still struggle to sell in the $50k+ market just like Acura and Infiniti.
Actually you proved me point about Audi nicely when you said that a luxury brand isn't a true brand unless people are willing to pay a premium price for it. Their sales prove that since people are not willing to pay a premium price in large quantities for their products, so I find it amusing when people grouped them with BMW, MB, and Lexus. They still struggle to sell in the $50k+ market just like Acura and Infiniti.
Infiniti will never manage to sell so many 4cylinder vehicles. Infiniti is value brand it needs V8 power and huge size to sell. I can forsee new A8 and A6/A7 to have very big impact just like Q5 has big impact in its segment.
12-23-2010, 09:23 PM
#2805
HondaOnWORKS, you're still confused.
"Entry level luxury" is not true luxury.
Acura is never considered to be a true luxury brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (by the auto industry, not by you or me).
Price has everything to do with luxury. For instance, people enjoy spending $20K on a non-diamond Rolex watch because Rolex is a luxury brand. But these people and others will never spend $20K on a non-diamond Seiko watch even though the Seiko has all the deep-sea resistance and timer/counter functions as the Rolex. Why ? Simply because Seiko is not a luxury brand, and doesn't justify spending that much on.
For a luxury brand, buyers are paying more for less. But for a non-luxury brand, buyers are paying less and getting more. This is the golden rule.
Like you said, the TSX is in the same league as the A4, C-class, and 3-series; but Acura dare not to sell the TSX at the same premium price level as all the latters. Because if it does, no one is gonna buy the TSX, just like the ill-fated $50K RL. The Acura-branded TSX just doesn't justify spending so much money on. But buyers are more than willing to spend the same premium money on the luxury-branded A4, C-class, and 3-series.
It's like you have this chunk of money to pick a car. For this amount of money, you can max-out on the TL, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class. And for this bigger amount of money, you can max-out on the RL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class. In effect, the Acura brand is offering more for less money, rather than offering less for more money as in those true luxury auto brands.
Till the time buyers are willing to buy the TSX at about the same premium price as the A4, 3-series, and C-class; willing to buy the TL at about the same premium price as the A6, E-class, and 5-series; then the Acura brand is considered (by the auto industry, not by you or me) to be true-luxury as Audi, MB, and BMW.
"Entry level luxury" is not true luxury.
Acura is never considered to be a true luxury brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (by the auto industry, not by you or me).
Price has everything to do with luxury. For instance, people enjoy spending $20K on a non-diamond Rolex watch because Rolex is a luxury brand. But these people and others will never spend $20K on a non-diamond Seiko watch even though the Seiko has all the deep-sea resistance and timer/counter functions as the Rolex. Why ? Simply because Seiko is not a luxury brand, and doesn't justify spending that much on.
For a luxury brand, buyers are paying more for less. But for a non-luxury brand, buyers are paying less and getting more. This is the golden rule.
Like you said, the TSX is in the same league as the A4, C-class, and 3-series; but Acura dare not to sell the TSX at the same premium price level as all the latters. Because if it does, no one is gonna buy the TSX, just like the ill-fated $50K RL. The Acura-branded TSX just doesn't justify spending so much money on. But buyers are more than willing to spend the same premium money on the luxury-branded A4, C-class, and 3-series.
It's like you have this chunk of money to pick a car. For this amount of money, you can max-out on the TL, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class. And for this bigger amount of money, you can max-out on the RL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class. In effect, the Acura brand is offering more for less money, rather than offering less for more money as in those true luxury auto brands.
Till the time buyers are willing to buy the TSX at about the same premium price as the A4, 3-series, and C-class; willing to buy the TL at about the same premium price as the A6, E-class, and 5-series; then the Acura brand is considered (by the auto industry, not by you or me) to be true-luxury as Audi, MB, and BMW.
First Acura dont give u 4 year free maintiance like BMW 328. (worth $2k)
TSX lacks DI engine/6speed auto combo. (worth $3500)
TSX navigation lacks wide screen 3D maps.
TSX lacks LED lights.
Above TSX lacks any customization options like Sport suspension/very limited colors/packages. (no push button start, auto leveling BI HID lights) etc.
2011 TSX 4cylinder Tech package is worth the same as 2011 328I $39k. considering increase power and options of 328I with 4 year maintaince. It is entirely inaccurate to say Acura is value brand when things are entirely omitted from the price point.
12-23-2010, 09:37 PM
#2806
Oh no, some one has gotten drunk on egg nog! Now, Acura is not that great or a value brand. Wow, his shift against Acura came quicker then I thought it would. It's like watching a seesaw each year! lol!!!
12-23-2010, 10:07 PM
#2807
My first Avatar....
Acura TSX lacks advance features and is standardized product.
First Acura dont give u 4 year free maintiance like BMW 328. (worth $2k)
TSX lacks DI engine/6speed auto combo. (worth $3500)
TSX navigation lacks wide screen 3D maps.
TSX lacks LED lights.
Above TSX lacks any customization options like Sport suspension/very limited colors/packages. (no push button start, auto leveling BI HID lights) etc.
2011 TSX 4cylinder Tech package is worth the same as 2011 328I $39k. considering increase power and options of 328I with 4 year maintaince. It is entirely inaccurate to say Acura is value brand when things are entirely omitted from the price point.
First Acura dont give u 4 year free maintiance like BMW 328. (worth $2k)
TSX lacks DI engine/6speed auto combo. (worth $3500)
TSX navigation lacks wide screen 3D maps.
TSX lacks LED lights.
Above TSX lacks any customization options like Sport suspension/very limited colors/packages. (no push button start, auto leveling BI HID lights) etc.
2011 TSX 4cylinder Tech package is worth the same as 2011 328I $39k. considering increase power and options of 328I with 4 year maintaince. It is entirely inaccurate to say Acura is value brand when things are entirely omitted from the price point.
Who the f*** are you? Are you going to ride the german's nut sacks now?
12-23-2010, 10:20 PM
#2808
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Acura TSX lacks advance features and is standardized product.
First Acura dont give u 4 year free maintiance like BMW 328. (worth $2k)
TSX lacks DI engine/6speed auto combo. (worth $3500)
TSX navigation lacks wide screen 3D maps.
TSX lacks LED lights.
Above TSX lacks any customization options like Sport suspension/very limited colors/packages. (no push button start, auto leveling BI HID lights) etc.
2011 TSX 4cylinder Tech package is worth the same as 2011 328I $39k. considering increase power and options of 328I with 4 year maintaince. It is entirely inaccurate to say Acura is value brand when things are entirely omitted from the price point.
First Acura dont give u 4 year free maintiance like BMW 328. (worth $2k)
TSX lacks DI engine/6speed auto combo. (worth $3500)
TSX navigation lacks wide screen 3D maps.
TSX lacks LED lights.
Above TSX lacks any customization options like Sport suspension/very limited colors/packages. (no push button start, auto leveling BI HID lights) etc.
2011 TSX 4cylinder Tech package is worth the same as 2011 328I $39k. considering increase power and options of 328I with 4 year maintaince. It is entirely inaccurate to say Acura is value brand when things are entirely omitted from the price point.
When you understand the market, get back to us.
12-24-2010, 02:15 AM
#2809
Senior Moderator
HondaOnWORKS, you're still confused.
"Entry level luxury" is not true luxury.
Acura is never considered to be a true luxury brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (by the auto industry, not by you or me).
Price has everything to do with luxury. For instance, people enjoy spending $20K on a non-diamond Rolex watch because Rolex is a luxury brand. But these people and others will never spend $20K on a non-diamond Seiko watch even though the Seiko has all the deep-sea resistance and timer/counter functions as the Rolex. Why ? Simply because Seiko is not a luxury brand, and doesn't justify spending that much on.
For a luxury brand, buyers are paying more for less. But for a non-luxury brand, buyers are paying less and getting more. This is the golden rule.
Like you said, the TSX is in the same league as the A4, C-class, and 3-series; but Acura dare not to sell the TSX at the same premium price level as all the latters. Because if it does, no one is gonna buy the TSX, just like the ill-fated $50K RL. The Acura-branded TSX just doesn't justify spending so much money on. But buyers are more than willing to spend the same premium money on the luxury-branded A4, C-class, and 3-series.
It's like you have this chunk of money to pick a car. For this amount of money, you can max-out on the TL, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class. And for this bigger amount of money, you can max-out on the RL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class. In effect, the Acura brand is offering more for less money, rather than offering less for more money as in those true luxury auto brands.
Till the time buyers are willing to buy the TSX at about the same premium price as the A4, 3-series, and C-class; willing to buy the TL at about the same premium price as the A6, E-class, and 5-series; then the Acura brand is considered (by the auto industry, not by you or me) to be true-luxury as Audi, MB, and BMW.
"Entry level luxury" is not true luxury.
Acura is never considered to be a true luxury brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (by the auto industry, not by you or me).
Price has everything to do with luxury. For instance, people enjoy spending $20K on a non-diamond Rolex watch because Rolex is a luxury brand. But these people and others will never spend $20K on a non-diamond Seiko watch even though the Seiko has all the deep-sea resistance and timer/counter functions as the Rolex. Why ? Simply because Seiko is not a luxury brand, and doesn't justify spending that much on.
For a luxury brand, buyers are paying more for less. But for a non-luxury brand, buyers are paying less and getting more. This is the golden rule.
Like you said, the TSX is in the same league as the A4, C-class, and 3-series; but Acura dare not to sell the TSX at the same premium price level as all the latters. Because if it does, no one is gonna buy the TSX, just like the ill-fated $50K RL. The Acura-branded TSX just doesn't justify spending so much money on. But buyers are more than willing to spend the same premium money on the luxury-branded A4, C-class, and 3-series.
It's like you have this chunk of money to pick a car. For this amount of money, you can max-out on the TL, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class. And for this bigger amount of money, you can max-out on the RL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class. In effect, the Acura brand is offering more for less money, rather than offering less for more money as in those true luxury auto brands.
Till the time buyers are willing to buy the TSX at about the same premium price as the A4, 3-series, and C-class; willing to buy the TL at about the same premium price as the A6, E-class, and 5-series; then the Acura brand is considered (by the auto industry, not by you or me) to be true-luxury as Audi, MB, and BMW.
I currently have both an Acura TL and a Mercedes-Benz and I recently sold a BMW. From actual experience and observation, the BMW was not a luxury car and did not claim to be. Both the Acura and Mercedes are luxury cars by anyone's definition (except yours, apparently). In fact, the Acura, although a few years older, has more luxury features than my M-B. AND, they came standard on the Acura. The steering wheel on my M-B was a $750 option.
Most people's criteria for luxury is: roomy, powerful, quality materials, quiet, stylish, comfortable. Then there are those brand-fans who would buy a skate board and call it luxury if it cost a lot and said BMW on it. I submit that luxury and status are two different things.
Smart buyers always opt for the biggest bang for the buck. I could drive any car made in the world if I wanted to. I CHOOSE to drive 1)Jeep, 2)Acura TL, and 3)Mercedes-Benz. When I feel the need for speed, I rent a Corvette from Hertz.
Last edited by Xpditor; 12-24-2010 at 02:22 AM.
12-24-2010, 02:32 AM
#2810
It is the customization, upscale interior (Compare TSX interior to RL) and feature. that make car expensive.
Most people only concentrate on Navigation/Rear camrera/Leather/HID/Stereo/Bluetoth
All these are worth $5500 on BMW with superior tech.
BMW give you some thing extra like Free maintaince, powerful engine with low end torque, 6speed auto, customization, color choice, angle eye headlights. AWD option in small car like 3 series.
BMW optional interior and navigation system is more upscale. and mirror size has been enlarged in MMC. bottom line is you get much more than what you pay. BMW 3 series is Toyota Corrolla of Luxury cars.
3 Series is very mass producted global car. BMW can afford numerous features in to it.
Pre-MMC.
12-24-2010, 03:09 AM
#2811
Senior Moderator
Brakes: 1K Per Axle OTD
Oil Changes: 150 OTD
Alignments: 100 OTD
Wipers: 40 OTD
Cabin Filters: 250 OTD
Engine Filters: 250 OTD
Transmission Fluid: 450 OTD
Its a bit more expensive than the acura and this is because the car costs a huge chunk of money and as well there is a bit of work involved. But if I didn't have that plan, I'd be getting screwed! I got it and it's paid itself over already 1.5 times so I'm good.
"The new TSX shows exactly honda failing at this, the innovation and reliability along with design failed HARD to what it should have been (no offense to current 3G TSX owners)"
TL owners and 4G TL owners? or do you mean 2G TSX owners?
If 2G TSX, I personally think the new 2G TSX is pretty good. Offers more luxurious features as of 011, and the design is starting to look not that bad to me now.
TL owners and 4G TL owners? or do you mean 2G TSX owners?
If 2G TSX, I personally think the new 2G TSX is pretty good. Offers more luxurious features as of 011, and the design is starting to look not that bad to me now.
12-24-2010, 03:14 AM
#2812
Senior Moderator
superior mirrors and ground clearance dont cost money.
It is the customization, upscale interior (Compare TSX interior to RL) and feature. that make car expensive.
Most people only concentrate on Navigation/Rear camrera/Leather/HID/Stereo/Bluetoth
All these are worth $5500 on BMW with superior tech.
BMW give you some thing extra like Free maintaince, powerful engine with low end torque, 6speed auto, customization, color choice, angle eye headlights. AWD option in small car like 3 series.
BMW optional interior and navigation system is more upscale. and mirror size has been enlarged in MMC. bottom line is you get much more than what you pay. BMW 3 series is Toyota Corrolla of Luxury cars.
3 Series is very mass producted global car. BMW can afford numerous features in to it.
It is the customization, upscale interior (Compare TSX interior to RL) and feature. that make car expensive.
Most people only concentrate on Navigation/Rear camrera/Leather/HID/Stereo/Bluetoth
All these are worth $5500 on BMW with superior tech.
BMW give you some thing extra like Free maintaince, powerful engine with low end torque, 6speed auto, customization, color choice, angle eye headlights. AWD option in small car like 3 series.
BMW optional interior and navigation system is more upscale. and mirror size has been enlarged in MMC. bottom line is you get much more than what you pay. BMW 3 series is Toyota Corrolla of Luxury cars.
3 Series is very mass producted global car. BMW can afford numerous features in to it.
As far as the other stuff, the 6spd auto is a joke. Think of the TSX's 5sp but with a new 1st gear that is VERY short, short so the 3 series can get into it's powerband quickly and get a good 0-60 time. The free maintenance is a ploy to get more people to buy the car over Audi and MB and other brands and as well puts new owners at ease on spending more money. In reality the price of that is rolled into the car so it doesn't really matter.
At the end of the day, if you are comparing a fully loaded TSX to a comparably equipped 3 series, the TSX wins. However as soon as you start optioning a few more things into the 3 series, it wins because the TSX can't compete!
12-24-2010, 12:00 PM
#2813
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
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Well I have free maintainance on it, but if I didn't have it, these would be the costs:
Brakes: 1K Per Axle OTD
Oil Changes: 150 OTD
Alignments: 100 OTD
Wipers: 40 OTD
Cabin Filters: 250 OTD
Engine Filters: 250 OTD
Transmission Fluid: 450 OTD
Its a bit more expensive than the acura and this is because the car costs a huge chunk of money and as well there is a bit of work involved. But if I didn't have that plan, I'd be getting screwed! I got it and it's paid itself over already 1.5 times so I'm good.
Brakes: 1K Per Axle OTD
Oil Changes: 150 OTD
Alignments: 100 OTD
Wipers: 40 OTD
Cabin Filters: 250 OTD
Engine Filters: 250 OTD
Transmission Fluid: 450 OTD
Its a bit more expensive than the acura and this is because the car costs a huge chunk of money and as well there is a bit of work involved. But if I didn't have that plan, I'd be getting screwed! I got it and it's paid itself over already 1.5 times so I'm good.
superior mirrors and ground clearance dont cost money.
It is the customization, upscale interior (Compare TSX interior to RL) and feature. that make car expensive.
Most people only concentrate on Navigation/Rear camrera/Leather/HID/Stereo/Bluetoth
All these are worth $5500 on BMW with superior tech.
BMW give you some thing extra like Free maintaince, powerful engine with low end torque, 6speed auto, customization, color choice, angle eye headlights. AWD option in small car like 3 series.
BMW optional interior and navigation system is more upscale. and mirror size has been enlarged in MMC. bottom line is you get much more than what you pay. BMW 3 series is Toyota Corrolla of Luxury cars.
3 Series is very mass producted global car. BMW can afford numerous features in to it.
It is the customization, upscale interior (Compare TSX interior to RL) and feature. that make car expensive.
Most people only concentrate on Navigation/Rear camrera/Leather/HID/Stereo/Bluetoth
All these are worth $5500 on BMW with superior tech.
BMW give you some thing extra like Free maintaince, powerful engine with low end torque, 6speed auto, customization, color choice, angle eye headlights. AWD option in small car like 3 series.
BMW optional interior and navigation system is more upscale. and mirror size has been enlarged in MMC. bottom line is you get much more than what you pay. BMW 3 series is Toyota Corrolla of Luxury cars.
3 Series is very mass producted global car. BMW can afford numerous features in to it.
BMW and Mercedes do not have Acura engineering or road presence. End of story. They have to make up by having lots of features.
12-24-2010, 05:53 PM
#2814
6G TLX-S
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and you are entitled to your opinion but you are not authorized to speak for the auto industry, AFAIK.
I currently have both an Acura TL and a Mercedes-Benz and I recently sold a BMW. From actual experience and observation, the BMW was not a luxury car and did not claim to be. Both the Acura and Mercedes are luxury cars by anyone's definition (except yours, apparently). In fact, the Acura, although a few years older, has more luxury features than my M-B. AND, they came standard on the Acura. The steering wheel on my M-B was a $750 option.
Most people's criteria for luxury is: roomy, powerful, quality materials, quiet, stylish, comfortable. Then there are those brand-fans who would buy a skate board and call it luxury if it cost a lot and said BMW on it. I submit that luxury and status are two different things.
Smart buyers always opt for the biggest bang for the buck. I could drive any car made in the world if I wanted to. I CHOOSE to drive 1)Jeep, 2)Acura TL, and 3)Mercedes-Benz. When I feel the need for speed, I rent a Corvette from Hertz.
I currently have both an Acura TL and a Mercedes-Benz and I recently sold a BMW. From actual experience and observation, the BMW was not a luxury car and did not claim to be. Both the Acura and Mercedes are luxury cars by anyone's definition (except yours, apparently). In fact, the Acura, although a few years older, has more luxury features than my M-B. AND, they came standard on the Acura. The steering wheel on my M-B was a $750 option.
Most people's criteria for luxury is: roomy, powerful, quality materials, quiet, stylish, comfortable. Then there are those brand-fans who would buy a skate board and call it luxury if it cost a lot and said BMW on it. I submit that luxury and status are two different things.
Smart buyers always opt for the biggest bang for the buck. I could drive any car made in the world if I wanted to. I CHOOSE to drive 1)Jeep, 2)Acura TL, and 3)Mercedes-Benz. When I feel the need for speed, I rent a Corvette from Hertz.
But I do agree with you that luxury and status are two different things. That's why in my posts, I didn't say that Acura cars weren't luxury cars. I merely said that the Acura brand is never a TRUE LUXURY brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (fact), and that, as a result, the Acura-branded TSX can never carry the same premium price tag as for the TRUE-LUXURY-BRANDED A4, 3-series, and C-class sedans (fact).
Oh yes. Acura vehicles are definitely luxury, when compared to the econo-branded Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. Some of them are even on par with those from the TRUE LUXURY auto makers. But can the Acura brand commands the same premium price tag as the TRUE LUXURY auto makers ? The answer is a positive NO !
The Acura brand just doesn't have the same luxury status and prestige level as the TRUE LUXURY brands. I know it's hard to digest. Acura vehicles are "luxury", but the Acura brand doesn't enjoy the same luxury recognition level in the auto world as for Audi, BMW, and MB. This is my point.
I too always opt for the biggest bang for the buck. But are there many smart buyers out there, after knowing how well the $40K and $50K Audi, BMW, and MB sedans, are selling compared to the $40K and $50K Acura cars.
12-24-2010, 06:05 PM
#2815
6G TLX-S
So it's like selling the current $50K RL for $40K. I can bet that even the current RL will be selling like hot cakes too.
This is "Bargain luxury". It's like the V8 RWD LS400, twenty years ago, were selling at $40K. First catch attention, then well praised, then gain fame. Steadily and slowly raise up the car price. I wonder how long it will take Acura to succeed this time.
12-24-2010, 07:38 PM
#2816
Senior Moderator
A $60K sedan selling for $50K. This will definitely work.
So it's like selling the current $50K RL for $40K. I can bet that even the current RL will be selling like hot cakes too.
This is "Bargain luxury". It's like the V8 RWD LS400, twenty years ago, were selling at $40K. First catch attention, then well praised, then gain fame. Steadily and slowly raise up the car price. I wonder how long it will take Acura to succeed this time.
So it's like selling the current $50K RL for $40K. I can bet that even the current RL will be selling like hot cakes too.
This is "Bargain luxury". It's like the V8 RWD LS400, twenty years ago, were selling at $40K. First catch attention, then well praised, then gain fame. Steadily and slowly raise up the car price. I wonder how long it will take Acura to succeed this time.
12-24-2010, 08:02 PM
#2817
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HondaOnWORKS, you're still confused.
"Entry level luxury" is not true luxury.
Acura is never considered to be a true luxury brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (by the auto industry, not by you or me).
Price has everything to do with luxury. For instance, people enjoy spending $20K on a non-diamond Rolex watch because Rolex is a luxury brand. But these people and others will never spend $20K on a non-diamond Seiko watch even though the Seiko has all the deep-sea resistance and timer/counter functions as the Rolex. Why ? Simply because Seiko is not a luxury brand, and doesn't justify spending that much on.
For a luxury brand, buyers are paying more for less. But for a non-luxury brand, buyers are paying less and getting more. This is the golden rule.
Like you said, the TSX is in the same league as the A4, C-class, and 3-series; but Acura dare not to sell the TSX at the same premium price level as all the latters. Because if it does, no one is gonna buy the TSX, just like the ill-fated $50K RL. The Acura-branded TSX just doesn't justify spending so much money on. But buyers are more than willing to spend the same premium money on the luxury-branded A4, C-class, and 3-series.
It's like you have this chunk of money to pick a car. For this amount of money, you can max-out on the TL, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class. And for this bigger amount of money, you can max-out on the RL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class. In effect, the Acura brand is offering more for less money, rather than offering less for more money as in those true luxury auto brands.
Till the time buyers are willing to buy the TSX at about the same premium price as the A4, 3-series, and C-class; willing to buy the TL at about the same premium price as the A6, E-class, and 5-series; then the Acura brand is considered (by the auto industry, not by you or me) to be true-luxury as Audi, MB, and BMW.
"Entry level luxury" is not true luxury.
Acura is never considered to be a true luxury brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (by the auto industry, not by you or me).
Price has everything to do with luxury. For instance, people enjoy spending $20K on a non-diamond Rolex watch because Rolex is a luxury brand. But these people and others will never spend $20K on a non-diamond Seiko watch even though the Seiko has all the deep-sea resistance and timer/counter functions as the Rolex. Why ? Simply because Seiko is not a luxury brand, and doesn't justify spending that much on.
For a luxury brand, buyers are paying more for less. But for a non-luxury brand, buyers are paying less and getting more. This is the golden rule.
Like you said, the TSX is in the same league as the A4, C-class, and 3-series; but Acura dare not to sell the TSX at the same premium price level as all the latters. Because if it does, no one is gonna buy the TSX, just like the ill-fated $50K RL. The Acura-branded TSX just doesn't justify spending so much money on. But buyers are more than willing to spend the same premium money on the luxury-branded A4, C-class, and 3-series.
It's like you have this chunk of money to pick a car. For this amount of money, you can max-out on the TL, the A4, the 3-series, and the C-class. And for this bigger amount of money, you can max-out on the RL, the A6, the 5-series, and the E-class. In effect, the Acura brand is offering more for less money, rather than offering less for more money as in those true luxury auto brands.
Till the time buyers are willing to buy the TSX at about the same premium price as the A4, 3-series, and C-class; willing to buy the TL at about the same premium price as the A6, E-class, and 5-series; then the Acura brand is considered (by the auto industry, not by you or me) to be true-luxury as Audi, MB, and BMW.
So the Audi A4 isn't true luxury? Same with the C300, 328i, IS250, G25 right? Because "Entry level luxury" is a segment which these cars are labeled as. I'm sure you can google it and the information about this segment is there. Granted there might be other names for it.
There are many forms of luxury segments in the auto industry.
You're clearly talking about how Acura is not a luxury brand itself. What makes a car brand luxurious? Selling luxurious cars. Does Acura do that? Yeah, I think so.
You're looking at it at a clearly "crazy" point of view. Just because the brand isn't recognized as a luxury brand, its not a luxury brand? You do know that's a clear bias, because luxury brand varies from person to person. Also society plays a big roll. Like I said before. In Germany, Mercedes Benz is not even considered to be that upscale compared to the ways us Americans view it. So you having a C300 there in Germany, is meh, while here its all "OMG YOU HAVE A MERCEDES" Completely different worlds.
Like Smartyyy said, If Acura and Infiniti isn't recognized as luxury, so is Audi. Remember when you said, if Acura is priced near the German competitors people will buy German? Its true, but its also true for Audi.
Why buy an Audi A4 that cost nearly 40K OTD when I can look at what Mercedes and BMW has to offer?
To me, I think the price of nearly 32~33K OTD for an Acura TSX. That's premium. Anything over 30 grand OTD is expensive, and you should be blessed to own one.
Again, I'll refer to the super car theory to counter argue. Nowadays, aren't most exotics in the 150K+ range? I mean most exotics are... But the GTR isn't... So I guess by your sense of logic. The GTR isn't an exotic? Yeah?
Acura TSX lacks advance features and is standardized product.
First Acura dont give u 4 year free maintiance like BMW 328. (worth $2k)
TSX lacks DI engine/6speed auto combo. (worth $3500)
TSX navigation lacks wide screen 3D maps.
TSX lacks LED lights.
Above TSX lacks any customization options like Sport suspension/very limited colors/packages. (no push button start, auto leveling BI HID lights) etc.
2011 TSX 4cylinder Tech package is worth the same as 2011 328I $39k. considering increase power and options of 328I with 4 year maintaince. It is entirely inaccurate to say Acura is value brand when things are entirely omitted from the price point.
First Acura dont give u 4 year free maintiance like BMW 328. (worth $2k)
TSX lacks DI engine/6speed auto combo. (worth $3500)
TSX navigation lacks wide screen 3D maps.
TSX lacks LED lights.
Above TSX lacks any customization options like Sport suspension/very limited colors/packages. (no push button start, auto leveling BI HID lights) etc.
2011 TSX 4cylinder Tech package is worth the same as 2011 328I $39k. considering increase power and options of 328I with 4 year maintaince. It is entirely inaccurate to say Acura is value brand when things are entirely omitted from the price point.
I stand by the fact the TSX doesn't need a 6spd automatic. The TSX I4 (5spd auto) pulls better MPG than the IS250 (6spd auto) and all that with the benefits of the TSX pulling better performance figures. So the lack of 6spd automatic? Not very important.
LED.... hmm... I don't understand why would anyone want LED, granted it might be nice to have, but it pushes the car price higher. Like I said before the TSX offers almost the same luxury as the competitors with minor differences. Most of the minor differences, people can do without. Such as LED...
Push start? I personally don't think the TSX needs it, but again might be nice to have as an offer like Mercedes and BMW. Mercedes and BMW nicely offers the push start feature for well about $500+ (I don't remember the exact cost) same for the Bi-Xenon lights (Hids) for about $500+ (I don't remember the exact cost also) Most people that buy MB C300 and the BMW 328i would not buy these options, because well take a look at it. 500+ for a push start you probably can live with out. After market HIDS lights can save you a couple hundred dollars.
I like the TSX as a "standardized product." It makes the car cheap. It comes standard with more luxury equipment than any German luxury competitor.
superior mirrors and ground clearance dont cost money.
It is the customization, upscale interior (Compare TSX interior to RL) and feature. that make car expensive.
Most people only concentrate on Navigation/Rear camrera/Leather/HID/Stereo/Bluetoth
All these are worth $5500 on BMW with superior tech.
BMW give you some thing extra like Free maintaince, powerful engine with low end torque, 6speed auto, customization, color choice, angle eye headlights. AWD option in small car like 3 series.
BMW optional interior and navigation system is more upscale. and mirror size has been enlarged in MMC. bottom line is you get much more than what you pay. BMW 3 series is Toyota Corrolla of Luxury cars.
3 Series is very mass producted global car. BMW can afford numerous features in to it.
It is the customization, upscale interior (Compare TSX interior to RL) and feature. that make car expensive.
Most people only concentrate on Navigation/Rear camrera/Leather/HID/Stereo/Bluetoth
All these are worth $5500 on BMW with superior tech.
BMW give you some thing extra like Free maintaince, powerful engine with low end torque, 6speed auto, customization, color choice, angle eye headlights. AWD option in small car like 3 series.
BMW optional interior and navigation system is more upscale. and mirror size has been enlarged in MMC. bottom line is you get much more than what you pay. BMW 3 series is Toyota Corrolla of Luxury cars.
3 Series is very mass producted global car. BMW can afford numerous features in to it.
Oh, by any chance do you have a bi-polar disorder? You seem to be all over the place. Acura support then Acura basher? Damn... Maybe you're drunk for the Holidays ^_^
12-24-2010, 08:10 PM
#2818
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I think the point that he and I were trying to make is that in this country, Audi is not a tier-1 brand. Just b/c they offer certain models doesn't snap the fingers and make them tier-1. They have offerings similar to BMW, MB, and Lexus yet no where near the image, recognition, sales, service, etc that those 3 do so they suffer from the same problems that Acura and Infiniti do yet they offer a more complete line-up. So what does that tell you, Audi is not any more successful in this country then Acura has been despite having a more complete line-up so having one doesn't mean jack squat if you can't sell or implement it correctly.
Actually you proved me point about Audi nicely when you said that a luxury brand isn't a true brand unless people are willing to pay a premium price for it. Their sales prove that since people are not willing to pay a premium price in large quantities for their products, so I find it amusing when people grouped them with BMW, MB, and Lexus. They still struggle to sell in the $50k+ market just like Acura and Infiniti.
Actually you proved me point about Audi nicely when you said that a luxury brand isn't a true brand unless people are willing to pay a premium price for it. Their sales prove that since people are not willing to pay a premium price in large quantities for their products, so I find it amusing when people grouped them with BMW, MB, and Lexus. They still struggle to sell in the $50k+ market just like Acura and Infiniti.
As I pointed out before, if we use your logic and the rest of the suppose "auto industry" for what is a true luxury brand than Audi is most certainly not a true luxury brand since it meets almost no criteria that BMW, MB, and Lexus is able to do.
I would disagree that entry level luxury is not luxury, maybe not high end opulent luxury, but by the definition of the word itself the TSX would be considered luxury, just like the C, 3, IS, G25, A4, etc since it is a refinement of living (more specifically driving) then what is necessary to live (aka drive).
By the way, your criteria and definition and factors that affect what luxury is are pretty screwed up. Its not one sole determinant and your focus is much to centered around price. Price has something to do with it, but not as much as your claiming it does.
I would disagree that entry level luxury is not luxury, maybe not high end opulent luxury, but by the definition of the word itself the TSX would be considered luxury, just like the C, 3, IS, G25, A4, etc since it is a refinement of living (more specifically driving) then what is necessary to live (aka drive).
By the way, your criteria and definition and factors that affect what luxury is are pretty screwed up
. Its not one sole determinant and your focus is much to centered around price. Price has something to do with it, but not as much as your claiming it does.I also feel that premium price varies depending on one's wealth. I mean, a millionaire can see Mercedes Benz's C300 45K OTD as a joke while a middle class can see it as a premium (same goes for the TSX's 32~33K OTD).
12-24-2010, 08:19 PM
#2819
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I didn't speak for the auto industry. I simply stated the fact in the auto industry, which is that the Acura brand is not considered to be a true luxury brand as Audi, BMW, and MB. This fact is well documented. Even the Honda CEO admitted it. Need I say more. But I love to see references from well-known sources that stated the Acura brand is being recognized as a true luxury brand just like Audi, BMW, and MB.
But I do agree with you that luxury and status are two different things. That's why in my posts, I didn't say that Acura cars weren't luxury cars. I merely said that the Acura brand is never a TRUE LUXURY brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (fact), and that, as a result, the Acura-branded TSX can never carry the same premium price tag as for the TRUE-LUXURY-BRANDED A4, 3-series, and C-class sedans (fact).
Oh yes. Acura vehicles are definitely luxury, when compared to the econo-branded Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. Some of them are even on par with those from the TRUE LUXURY auto makers. But can the Acura brand commands the same premium price tag as the TRUE LUXURY auto makers ? The answer is a positive NO !
The Acura brand just doesn't have the same luxury status and prestige level as the TRUE LUXURY brands. I know it's hard to digest. Acura vehicles are "luxury", but the Acura brand doesn't enjoy the same luxury recognition level in the auto world as for Audi, BMW, and MB. This is my point.
I too always opt for the biggest bang for the buck. But are there many smart buyers out there, after knowing how well the $40K and $50K Audi, BMW, and MB sedans, are selling compared to the $40K and $50K Acura cars.
But I do agree with you that luxury and status are two different things. That's why in my posts, I didn't say that Acura cars weren't luxury cars. I merely said that the Acura brand is never a TRUE LUXURY brand as Audi, BMW, and MB (fact), and that, as a result, the Acura-branded TSX can never carry the same premium price tag as for the TRUE-LUXURY-BRANDED A4, 3-series, and C-class sedans (fact).
Oh yes. Acura vehicles are definitely luxury, when compared to the econo-branded Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. Some of them are even on par with those from the TRUE LUXURY auto makers. But can the Acura brand commands the same premium price tag as the TRUE LUXURY auto makers ? The answer is a positive NO !
The Acura brand just doesn't have the same luxury status and prestige level as the TRUE LUXURY brands. I know it's hard to digest. Acura vehicles are "luxury", but the Acura brand doesn't enjoy the same luxury recognition level in the auto world as for Audi, BMW, and MB. This is my point.
I too always opt for the biggest bang for the buck. But are there many smart buyers out there, after knowing how well the $40K and $50K Audi, BMW, and MB sedans, are selling compared to the $40K and $50K Acura cars.
But then you say Acura is not a luxury brand.
I think you're contradicting yourself? How is it possible that a brand that makes only luxury cars can't be seen as a luxury brand, because they don't price high enough? That's all I'm getting from your post.
Granted, society plays a role in how we see things as luxury. But just because part of the world thinks Acura is not luxury, doesn't mean its not a luxury brand.
I think Acura and Infiniti is what you claim "true luxury brands" that is trying to move up in the auto industry market. True, their image isn't as great as Mercedes Benz or BMW. But at the end of the day... they are still luxury brands. I mean, Acura's cheapest car is around 32~33K OTD. That's premium to me.
You should stop mentioning Audi. Smarty is right about Audi. Audi fails to keep up with BMW, Mercedes Benz or Lexus. Audi fails to sell much vehicles also that is priced near its German's rivals. Because... If Audi A4 cost nearly as much as a Mercedes Benz? Why not get a Benz? As humans, we always want the best things in life (most of us, and its normal to do so) So when consumers see that two brands that are priced the same, but one brand is better. They go for the better brand.
12-24-2010, 09:12 PM
#2820
Race Director
If Audi A4 cost nearly as much as a Mercedes Benz? Why not get a Benz? As humans, we always want the best things in life (most of us, and its normal to do so) So when consumers see that two brands that are priced the same, but one brand is better. They go for the better brand.
12-24-2010, 09:19 PM
#2821
6G TLX-S
You say Acura vehicles are luxurious, so stating all of the line up is luxurious.
But then you say Acura is not a luxury brand.
I think you're contradicting yourself? How is it possible that a brand that makes only luxury cars can't be seen as a luxury brand, because they don't price high enough? That's all I'm getting from your post.
Granted, society plays a role in how we see things as luxury. But just because part of the world thinks Acura is not luxury, doesn't mean its not a luxury brand.
I think Acura and Infiniti is what you claim "true luxury brands" that is trying to move up in the auto industry market. True, their image isn't as great as Mercedes Benz or BMW. But at the end of the day... they are still luxury brands. I mean, Acura's cheapest car is around 32~33K OTD. That's premium to me.
You should stop mentioning Audi. Smarty is right about Audi. Audi fails to keep up with BMW, Mercedes Benz or Lexus. Audi fails to sell much vehicles also that is priced near its German's rivals. Because... If Audi A4 cost nearly as much as a Mercedes Benz? Why not get a Benz? As humans, we always want the best things in life (most of us, and its normal to do so) So when consumers see that two brands that are priced the same, but one brand is better. They go for the better brand.
But then you say Acura is not a luxury brand.
I think you're contradicting yourself? How is it possible that a brand that makes only luxury cars can't be seen as a luxury brand, because they don't price high enough? That's all I'm getting from your post.
Granted, society plays a role in how we see things as luxury. But just because part of the world thinks Acura is not luxury, doesn't mean its not a luxury brand.
I think Acura and Infiniti is what you claim "true luxury brands" that is trying to move up in the auto industry market. True, their image isn't as great as Mercedes Benz or BMW. But at the end of the day... they are still luxury brands. I mean, Acura's cheapest car is around 32~33K OTD. That's premium to me.
You should stop mentioning Audi. Smarty is right about Audi. Audi fails to keep up with BMW, Mercedes Benz or Lexus. Audi fails to sell much vehicles also that is priced near its German's rivals. Because... If Audi A4 cost nearly as much as a Mercedes Benz? Why not get a Benz? As humans, we always want the best things in life (most of us, and its normal to do so) So when consumers see that two brands that are priced the same, but one brand is better. They go for the better brand.
I SAID that the Acura brand was luxurious when compared to the econo-branded Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc.
Originally Posted by Sourced from Automotive News, Nov 2010
Acura has no V8 engine, no halo sports car and is no where close becoming a top tier luxury brand – and it looks like things are going to stay that way.
In an interview with Automotive News, Honda Motor CEO Takanobu Ito said that there are a lot of discussions going on inside the company about Acura and why way it should be going. He said that executives have so far decided that the brand’s “direction should be smart premium, not top tier.”
“Among the technologies we have at Honda, we must apply those that symbolize our advanced performance technology and environmental technology,” Ito said. “We call this ‘smart.’ We agreed that smart premium is what we should be targeting with Acura, not the upper-segment vehicles such as Lexus or Mercedes-Benz. We must apply advanced technologies which make our vehicle more fun to drive, achieve a more comfortable drive and high environmental performance.”
In an interview with Automotive News, Honda Motor CEO Takanobu Ito said that there are a lot of discussions going on inside the company about Acura and why way it should be going. He said that executives have so far decided that the brand’s “direction should be smart premium, not top tier.”
“Among the technologies we have at Honda, we must apply those that symbolize our advanced performance technology and environmental technology,” Ito said. “We call this ‘smart.’ We agreed that smart premium is what we should be targeting with Acura, not the upper-segment vehicles such as Lexus or Mercedes-Benz. We must apply advanced technologies which make our vehicle more fun to drive, achieve a more comfortable drive and high environmental performance.”
I SAID that when the Acura-branded TSX is priced at the same level as the TRUE-LUXURY-branded A4, 3-series, and C-class, then no one is gonna buy the TSX, but instead buy the latters.
You also admitted that "True, their image isn't as great as Mercedes Benz or BMW." This is exactly what I have been saying repeatedly. "The Acura brand was not recognized by the auto world as a TRUE LUXURY brand as BMW, and MB." Thus, this comparatively-inferior image problem for Acura when compared to the TRUE LUXURY brands.
If you keep dropping the "TRUE LUXURY BRAND" wordings from my posts, you're twisting my words, and missing my points.
12-24-2010, 10:32 PM
#2822
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Unless the "lesser" brand actually gives more/better features. If the price is the same but one offers more features most folks without a snob attitude or "buying the brand" mentality would go for the vehicle with more features. That's why in Germany Audi is cleaning MB and BMW's clock. Most folks there bon't buy the brand - they buy the features. Unfortunately, in the US that mentality is in short supply.
Just so they can say, "I have a Lexus" Pretty much sums up us Americans.
Yeah, I forgot to mention. Most Americans don't buy the better car, they buy the better brand which in my mind is pretty stupid.
I hate to keep repeating myself.
I SAID that the Acura brand was luxurious when compared to the econo-branded Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc.
I SAID that the Acura brand was not recognized by the auto world as a TRUE LUXURY brand as Audi, BMW, and MB. If it was, Honda CEO Takanobu Ito wouldn't have given the above speech.
I SAID that when the Acura-branded TSX is priced at the same level as the TRUE-LUXURY-branded A4, 3-series, and C-class, then no one is gonna buy the TSX, but instead buy the latters.
You also admitted that "True, their image isn't as great as Mercedes Benz or BMW." This is exactly what I have been saying repeatedly. "The Acura brand was not recognized by the auto world as a TRUE LUXURY brand as BMW, and MB." Thus, this comparatively-inferior image problem for Acura when compared to the TRUE LUXURY brands.
If you keep dropping the "TRUE LUXURY BRAND" wordings from my posts, you're twisting my words, and missing my points.
I SAID that the Acura brand was luxurious when compared to the econo-branded Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc.
I SAID that the Acura brand was not recognized by the auto world as a TRUE LUXURY brand as Audi, BMW, and MB. If it was, Honda CEO Takanobu Ito wouldn't have given the above speech.
I SAID that when the Acura-branded TSX is priced at the same level as the TRUE-LUXURY-branded A4, 3-series, and C-class, then no one is gonna buy the TSX, but instead buy the latters.
You also admitted that "True, their image isn't as great as Mercedes Benz or BMW." This is exactly what I have been saying repeatedly. "The Acura brand was not recognized by the auto world as a TRUE LUXURY brand as BMW, and MB." Thus, this comparatively-inferior image problem for Acura when compared to the TRUE LUXURY brands.
If you keep dropping the "TRUE LUXURY BRAND" wordings from my posts, you're twisting my words, and missing my points.
Acura is luxurious compared to Audi, MB, and BMW, because Acura cars are able to compete with them. If a brand's line up of cars is able to compete with another brand's line up of cars. They are pretty much in the same boat.
I never admit that Acura was not regoncized by the Auto world as a luxury brand. I merely said MB, BMW, Audi, Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus are on the same boat of luxury brand, but Acura, Infiniti and Audi might be on a lower end of the boat. Meaning, Acura is a luxury brand, but they are not as known as lets say Lexus. In better terms, I was going by ranks of luxury brand. MB>BMW>Lexus>Audi>Acura/Infiniti? They are all luxury brands, but some are just more well known.
"I SAID that when the Acura-branded TSX is priced at the same level as the TRUE-LUXURY-branded A4, 3-series, and C-class, then no one is gonna buy the TSX, but instead buy the latters."
Isn't that true for Audi? BMW? and Mercedes Benz? If an Audi was priced near a BMW or MB, most Americans would look at BMW or MB. Same goes with Lexus? If an Audi A4 can be bought for 40K OTD, why not buy a Lexus IS250? If a BMW 328i can be bought (loaded) for almost 43~45K OTD, why not buy a Mercedes Benz C300 (loaded)? Your argument doesn't work, because I believe it goes for all brands. This is true, because no luxury brand is on one same scale. They might be on the same boat, but their going to be brands us consumers will recognized as better than others.
Why does the Acura have to price cars near MB, BMW, and Audi in order for it to be "True Luxury Brand". Since when was there a base price a company has to set in order for the company to be considered a luxury brand? So Acura isn't a luxury brand, because the TSX isn't sold for 40K~45K OTD(loaded)? So I guess the Nissan GTR isn't a super car unless its sold for 200K?
Last edited by HondaOnWORKS; 12-24-2010 at 10:34 PM.
12-24-2010, 10:59 PM
#2823
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I think brand really plays an influence on how we see a car, well for Americans anyways.
On a side note! Am I the only one that dislike the gear lever being behind the steering wheel on the E class? I never liked that about the E-Class.
12-25-2010, 05:47 AM
#2824
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
Youre not the only one. Unless its a truck, the gear lever should be on the center console IMO.
12-25-2010, 11:22 AM
#2825
2nd gen Odyssey and 1st gen CR-V too.
I don't like it period, cause on the Honda's the windshield wiper level/sprayer is there also, and i'm constantly spraying the window when i mean to put the car into drive.
12-25-2010, 12:21 PM
#2826
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
^ One thing Ive noticed in the Pilot is if you have it in the lower gears the damn shifter hits your knee.
12-25-2010, 10:05 PM
#2827
Be kind to us truckers !
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Automotive news
Acura's aim of becoming a "Tier 1" luxury brand has been thwarted by a lineup that some view as nothing more than decked-out Hondas. Dan Bonawitz, Honda's vice president of corporate planning and logistics believes that broadening Acura's line of vehicles is the way to compete with Audi, BMW and Mercedes.
The first step is to introduce an all-new vehicle that will arrive before the new NSX in 2010. A coupe is a possibility, filling the gap left by the dearly departed RSX and older CL. A retractable hardtop could be part of the package, and there's also talk of a four-door "coupe" that could contend with the M-B CLS and Audi's upcoming A7.
Whatever it is, it needs to be packing more than a just a four-pot driving the front wheels. A serious competitor the 1-series would be a welcome addition to the Acura line, and would fulfill the automaker's previous claim of pursuing niches generally left unfilled by other luxury brands.
Acura's aim of becoming a "Tier 1" luxury brand has been thwarted by a lineup that some view as nothing more than decked-out Hondas. Dan Bonawitz, Honda's vice president of corporate planning and logistics believes that broadening Acura's line of vehicles is the way to compete with Audi, BMW and Mercedes.
The first step is to introduce an all-new vehicle that will arrive before the new NSX in 2010. A coupe is a possibility, filling the gap left by the dearly departed RSX and older CL. A retractable hardtop could be part of the package, and there's also talk of a four-door "coupe" that could contend with the M-B CLS and Audi's upcoming A7.
Whatever it is, it needs to be packing more than a just a four-pot driving the front wheels. A serious competitor the 1-series would be a welcome addition to the Acura line, and would fulfill the automaker's previous claim of pursuing niches generally left unfilled by other luxury brands.
12-25-2010, 10:08 PM
#2828
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start by dumping FWD's in half the line up and adding RWD's, toss in some V-8 powertrains and voila!
Last edited by 007TL-S; 12-25-2010 at 10:09 PM. Reason: mis-spellings
12-25-2010, 10:16 PM
#2830
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12-25-2010, 10:21 PM
#2831
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As much as I don't like saying it, I do have to agree with some of SSFTSX's comments. People like to customize their cars a bit. For example people like brown leather interiors however Acura offers them with VERY limited colors (I believe 3) with only certain trims. With BMW you can get almost any color leather with any color exterior, and if the website says you can't all you need to do is go to a dealer and they can have it done.
As far as the other stuff, the 6spd auto is a joke. Think of the TSX's 5sp but with a new 1st gear that is VERY short, short so the 3 series can get into it's powerband quickly and get a good 0-60 time. The free maintenance is a ploy to get more people to buy the car over Audi and MB and other brands and as well puts new owners at ease on spending more money. In reality the price of that is rolled into the car so it doesn't really matter.
At the end of the day, if you are comparing a fully loaded TSX to a comparably equipped 3 series, the TSX wins. However as soon as you start optioning a few more things into the 3 series, it wins because the TSX can't compete!
As far as the other stuff, the 6spd auto is a joke. Think of the TSX's 5sp but with a new 1st gear that is VERY short, short so the 3 series can get into it's powerband quickly and get a good 0-60 time. The free maintenance is a ploy to get more people to buy the car over Audi and MB and other brands and as well puts new owners at ease on spending more money. In reality the price of that is rolled into the car so it doesn't really matter.
At the end of the day, if you are comparing a fully loaded TSX to a comparably equipped 3 series, the TSX wins. However as soon as you start optioning a few more things into the 3 series, it wins because the TSX can't compete!
12-26-2010, 06:28 PM
#2833
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Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you. How can you compare an entry level luxury sedan to a Family car?
The Accord or "well equiped" Corolla is made with poor quality material. Well, the materials aren't as good as in the TSX. The TSX I4's performance is better compared with the BMW 328i, not the Accord or Corolla. Corolla doesn't even offer leather seats, I believe.
The Accord and Corolla are in completely different segments compared to the TSX.
The Entry Level Luxury segment consists of: TSX I4, IS250, A4, BMW 328i, C300, and G25.
TSX never has or ever will be compared to an Accord or Corolla. The build quality is different, refinement is different, and the features it offers are completely different.
If you say the TSX can be compared with the Accord, I guess the Camry can be compared with the IS250?
I always found it weird that people think the TSX is in the Accord's level. Sitting/driving in an Accord or TSX, you'll know the difference between the two. I'm just saying a Entry Level Luxury car can't be compared to family cars.
12-31-2010, 11:18 AM
#2834
Race Director
DETROIT (AP) — This was the year General Motors Co. and Nissan made good on their promise to bring mass-produced electric cars to the market. But don't count on seeing one in traffic anytime soon. Sales so far have been microscopic and they're likely to stay that way for some time.
GM sold between 250 and 350 Chevy Volts this month and Nissan's sales totaled less than 10 Leaf sedans in the past two weeks. Production for both is slowly ramping up, and supplies are limited.
It will be well into 2012 before both the Volt and Leaf are available nationwide. And if you're not one of the 50,000 people already on waiting lists, it could take six months before you will be able to walk in and haggle with a salesman over the price of one of them on the lot.
GM sold between 250 and 350 Chevy Volts this month and Nissan's sales totaled less than 10 Leaf sedans in the past two weeks. Production for both is slowly ramping up, and supplies are limited.
It will be well into 2012 before both the Volt and Leaf are available nationwide. And if you're not one of the 50,000 people already on waiting lists, it could take six months before you will be able to walk in and haggle with a salesman over the price of one of them on the lot.
Come to think of it I have yet to see Tesla monthly sales.
I realize that's probably more of a statement about the RL than the Volt but it's noteworthy
01-01-2011, 07:07 AM
#2837
AZ Community Team
01-01-2011, 10:21 AM
#2838
Race Director
No, and I'm not sure many folks would get that.
Biker, who is still confused by the move of the sales quote to this thread when it was originally posted in the monthly sales thread.
Biker, who is still confused by the move of the sales quote to this thread when it was originally posted in the monthly sales thread.
01-05-2011, 03:53 AM
#2839
SSM
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Part of the issue is that the Acura emblem was applied to a fairly random assortment of cars through the 90's to early 2000's. It was a race brand stateside with the Integra, CL, NSX, and RSX when perhaps those cars should have remained under the Honda moniker. When Acura suddenly decided to shift into a more luxurious nature, it was kind of a U-turn.
01-05-2011, 07:49 AM
#2840
Part of the issue is that the Acura emblem was applied to a fairly random assortment of cars through the 90's to early 2000's. It was a race brand stateside with the Integra, CL, NSX, and RSX when perhaps those cars should have remained under the Honda moniker. When Acura suddenly decided to shift into a more luxurious nature, it was kind of a U-turn.