MySoCalLife

TL interior > Mercedes interior.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I never said I agree with the journalists. There are alot of buttons, but for the most part, they are in a good spot and easy to get used to.

But, I will say that Honda did something good with the Accord for the 2010-up models; they rearranged the HVAC controls and its much easier to use. The 08 design is very unintuitive.

2008:



2011:

Costco

Flat plane crank and ITB's in a production Acura? Maybe in a concept.... maybe. Then again, it hasn't happened, so....

I think I remember a Mugen RL concept having ITBs, but it would have been a freezing cold day in hell before Acura would have made that. I'm quite suspicious of what that poster had to say. If what they're saying is true though, it would make me depressed... as much as it doesn't seem like I am, I'm still somewhat of a Honda fanboy deep down inside, and hell, no matter WHO does it, when a car company brings something highly competitive to the table, that's always welcome to me.

There are a lot of issues with the RL, both before and after the MMC. Not to say it's a bad car as I'd strongly consider an 06-08 as a DD, but there's some good reasons as to why it doesn't sell well. Hopefully Acura brings the RL to the forefront again.

Edward'TLS

In a way I do agree with you.

The two models are too close in size and too similar in configuration. Honda has nailed this problem dead in the head. But is the solution(s) good enough ?

So the Acura fix for the next generation RL very likely would be to make the new car even bigger (because it can't be smaller than the current TL). Oh yes. Even bigger, even heavier. Would this warrant an even more powerful engine to move this big and heavy monster ? Definitely Yes, and the new engine has to be significantly MORE powerful (50-100hp more) than the 305hp V6 (provided that the 2012 MMC TL has no increase in hp) that the comparatively smaller and lighter top-line TL is currently using.

But since Acura stubbornly resists building high power V8 motors, it's going to have a hard time building a naturally-aspirated, non-IMA V6 engine capable of outputing 350-400hp for the new job.

I know this has to be done for the new RL, but it's just that I don't see how Acura can pull it off this time, or leave the new RL to rot like it is now.

In addition, a bigger, heavier, and more technologically advanced RL almost guarantee a price increase. If buyers now aren't willing to fork out the $10K difference between the 305hp AWD RL and the 305hp AWD TL, the new RL must be light years in advancement in order to justify the more than $10K premium for the next gen RL.

Maybe Honda will surprise us !?

phile

How is that unintuitive? you press the button with a picture of the windshield for the vent to clear the windshield, "rear" for the rear window and side mirrors to defrost, the triangle pointed down means to lower it, the triangle pointed up means to increase the temp...

Ken1997TL

People need their hands held 24/7 these days.

Colin

Since the solution hasn't presented itself yet, we cannot judge.

There is a bit of a 'double standard' on the issue of weight. On the one hand, people clamor for a 'full luxury' RL, while at the same time we want it lightweight. IMO, as long as Honda decides where they want to car to 'play' they can size and option it appropriately. Success or failure will depend on the goals they outline for themselves as well as how well they communicate that to the buying public.

Regarding size, I could easily see a situation where the all-new RL is the same size as the current car or similarly sized to the current TL. Especially since the TL would be up for its full model change right after the RL comes out. They could simply resize the TL to the third generation size to maintain the separation they are looking for.
Actually, I have no doubts that they would be able to build a 350 to 400 horsepower V6. However, I don't believe such an engine would work well in a luxury sedan. (although, it would be true to honda's "high revving" legacy).

I would be pleasantly surprised to see an all new V-6 in the 3.2 liter range that was a "traditional" high reving motor that sacrificed torque for an 8000 RPM redline but used the IMA system to supplement the bottom end.

Edward'TLS

There is no "double standard" on luxury sedans. Buyers want a "full luxury" RL, with full-size-luxury-sedan-like-power (a.k.a. V8) to match, just like the other true full luxury sedans out there in the market. Nothing fancy.

The only problem is that Acura has backed itself into a corner by stubbornly refusing to build the matching high power V8 motors.

Like you said earlier. High revving V6 is never good for big luxury sedans. But the only way to squeeze V8-like power from V6 engines is to go for higher and higher red-lines. That's why the task is so difficult for Acura.

However, a V8 will solve most problems.

Colin

That still brings us back to the question: Do buyers want that from Acura? More concisely, do buyers want any Acura over $50K? I would suggest that the answer is a solid NO! The reason being, once we approach that figure, people just buy the alternative "Euro mobile" (even if it means getting a 'lower' trim level E-Class for example).

Colin

As for a V-8, I can't see any logical case for this and while it's easy to sit on a forum and complain that "they should just do it", it's not our money being used. It would surely be an engine program that would see a production lifespan nearing 15 years (as with the current V-6). Would it still be a viable engine choice in 2025? I'm guessing that Honda decided it wasn't worth the investment. You're right, they were stubborn, and if they had changed their tune 1 year earlier, we'd probably have something (if the rumors were correct). I blame CAFE as much as Honda for this one

Hapa DC5

Wasn't the 2g Legend approaching 50k and that was 15+ years ago? They were selling right?

Colin

No. From a sales perspective, the 2G Legend sucked once the LS400 was out. This is the reason that they dropped the names, created the soft "LS like" 3.5 RL etc. This is what people on forums never seem to acknowledge. Despite the fond remembrances of the nameplate, the 2G was getting it's butt kicked in the marketplace and this forced a change in the direction of the Acura brand. It is revisionist history to view it the other way and claim that because Acura dumped the names, that the brand started to falter. They dumped the names because they were already faltering.

ghttf

I think the interiors are fine..the TL SH-AWD 6MT drives really well...the exterior is really what has been disappointing. They could even get away with the ancient 5AT if the cars looked as good as in 2000-2008

jchan2

I recently went for a ride in a new TL and the interior was fairly nicely done.

I'm still having issues over that exterior, though... And the whole ZDX thing...

Crazy Bimmer

I love buttons btw. I was pissy when these new cars started to use less and less of them.

Oh and...

J.D. Power: Styling biggest reason people reject Acura


http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/22/j...-reject-acura/

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I don't really like the interior of the new TLs as much as the previous TL. I do like the MDX interior a whole lot more than the 2G though. I guess I'm split on the interior differences personally.

Edward'TLS

You've got it right. Buyers don't want any Acura sedan, neither Smart Luxury nor Dumb Luxury, for over $50K. This brings back to my original question. How would Acura pull it off with the next gen RL; unless Acura is willing to lower the price to $40K, which is highly unlikely to happen ?

The likely scenario is that no matter how fancy the next gen RL will be, buyers still won't buy it for over $50K, especially with the lack of the high power V8 engine option.

Thus, even though the future solution(s) hasn't yet been presented, we can still foresee the future and hand down our judgement now with high probability.

Up to this moment, V8 engine options have been and are still available for true-luxury-brand sedans that the RL is desperately trying to compete with. If Honda has decided that the V8 wasn't worth the investment, might as well kill the $50K RL program too, since buyers don't want the $50K non-V8 Acura RL. Flagship sedans selling at the current RL rate aren't worth the investment too.

Kill the RL now. Then bring back the RL in the far future when a viable engine choice is available, and when true-luxury-brand sedans no longer offer the V8 engine as option choice.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I think the lack of a V-8/high power engine is the RL's smallest problem. The main problem with the RL is that it's roughly the same size historically as the TL has been. That's an immediate ding in RL sales, one that have to been up for with something like exciting sheetmetal. The RL has yet to have that. If the difference in style between the TL and RL was the E-Class (TL) and CLS-Class (RL) then it'd be a different story. But the RL is otherwise just too close to the TL in almost all areas. We see this outside of the Acura brand too. The Lexus GS is more successful than the RL but isn't a cash cow like the 5-Series or E-Class, and part of that is due to the similarly sized ES350. The GS is more successful though in part do to it being a RWD car with noticably more power and options. The on paper difference between the GS350 and ES350 is obvious, and that's before you get in them. With the RL versus TL, you have to keep making excuses for the RL. That aside, I'd rather have the RL.

HondaOnWORKS

Acura's line up is not big enough to offer a wide ranges of engines yet. Maybe in the future when Acura produces more cars, they will offer more engines, just maybe.

I mean you might say Acura is a brand "seeking identity", but Honda claims its their Luxury Division. Like many others, Acura is considered a Luxury Brand. In terms of luxurious features, the 011 TSX offers pretty much almost the same as the 011 IS250. I think that's pretty much towards a luxurious brand identity.

Besides, Acura is selling penalty of cars without the wide range engines, no coupe, and not much AWD offering.

Edward'TLS

The main problem with the RL is more than it's similar size as the TL. The $10K cheaper TL has exactly the same configuration (305hp V6 SH-AWD 4-door sedan) as the comparatively much more expensive RL. Even though the RL is better equipped, but buyers can hardly justify the extra $10K premium buying it over the top-line TL model.

That's why I said the next gen RL has to be much, much more technology advanced than the current TL, in order to justify that $10K (or even more) premium over the TL model.

HondaOnWORKS

I agree with you. Acura, Audi, and Infiniti are less known compared to Lexus, BMW, Mercedes Benz. Actually, my friend that moved to Germany. He told me that Mercedes Benz is not really an "upscale luxury" brand there as compared to the US. In Germany, Mercedes Benz makes buses, taxis, and a lot of other stuff.

I think is part of our society to like a brand more because of the name. In America, the Mercedes Benz is probably the most well known "luxury" brand there is. Aside from Porsche and the Italians, of course. I'm saying like, Mercedes Benz C300 in America = "OMG, Wow, Mercedes!!! You're rich" In Germany, C300 = "Meh"

Society influences the way we think of brands. Why you think people rather have a BMW, Benz over Audi, Acura, Infinit, Lexus. I think in part it has to do with the songs too. Notice, how of all the car brands you listed, only Lexus, BMW, and Benz get mentioned in songs. That alone plays a big part of the influence on what car brand is "good" or "high end"

I agree with you in part also. While I do like to put out that people rather buy a E350 over a GS, because of brand. Again, in our society, Mercedes Benz is ahead of Lexus in terms of "luxury brand" Its like asking someone, "Would you rather have a free Lexus or a free Mercedes?" (In America only). And of course every market is different. Mercedes Benz is not as upscale in Germany compared to America.

HondaOnWORKS

I will agree with you on this. I do also think the RL is too similar to the TL. Acura needs to move the RL away from the TL. If they want the RL to be the top of their brand, they will have to advance it forward. Make it worth the difference to buy. I mean, like any consumer, if one car is too similar to another car, buy the cheaper one.

Edward'TLS

So maybe in the future when the Acura line-up is big enough, then it can be "similar" to the Audi brand. But definitely not now with the Acura's current small line-up.

I think you're confused. Honda has always WANTED Acura to be it's luxury (especially Tier-1) division, but till now still unable to do so. The auto industry has never considered that the Acura brand as a true luxury brand. A couple months ago, even the Honda CEO openly admitted that it has given up the effort to project Acura to be the so-called "Tier-1" luxury brand. So there is no chance that the Acura brand will sit amongst Audi, BMW, MB, and Lexus in the near future.

Selling plenty of cars doesn't mean the brand is luxury. Hyundai sells lots of cars too. The Hyundai Genesis has lots of luxury feature too. But this still doesn't make the Hyundai brand a luxury brand. A brand is considered luxury when buyers are willing to buy it's products at a premium price.

Till the time the TSX is priced similar to the A4, 3-series, and C-class; the TL priced similar to the A6, 5-series, and E-class; the RL selling well at over $50K; then the Acura brand is considered a true luxury brand in the auto world.

Colin

Or they have to fit $60K worth of value and sell it for $50K and (this is the trick) get the message out better.
I'll discuss things with you, but if you're just going to lay down dogma, then you're wasting time.
Acura has clearly stated that they don't view the V-8 cars as the competition for the RL. They've positioned the RL against the 6 cylinder versions of the GS, E, and 5 series. Setting up the RL against the V-8 versions creates a 'straw man' argument that is destined to failure.

csmeance

In all honesty, honda needs to realize what a person who looks at a 7 series, an A8, LS460 or S class thinks about before purchasing a car rather than use a TSX mentality on it.

Value is second-nature to what it offered. People want flagships because they are what they are, top notch cars with top notch offerings. People want comfort, features, innovation and as well something that shows respect and power. IMO the only V6 that has managed to do that is the NSX.

If anything, the next RL needs better materials on the inside (real wood), needs more options like 22-way seats in the front and nightvision, needs some innovation like an upgraded SH-AWD along with other technology, needs something that's comfortable like REAL SPORT/COMFORT modes, needs power (0-60 in at max 6 seconds) and something with good styling.

I was ready to buy an RL after having one for a while as a loaner and seeing what it had to offer, but the dealer was on his high-horse and wouldn't budge off MSRP on a CMBS RL. In retrospect it was great because I got the 760 instead.

If I were working at honda, I'd go out and buy 7 series or at least one flagship and reverse engineer it! I'd bet a hundred dollars that hundai is reverse engineering the competition and seeing what makes them special and matching it. They should go out and see what they have to offer, go out and see what the competition has and aim to beat the with honda reliablity and workmanship. Whatever the price arrives to, let it be but don't falter on what morals and ideals you stand behind. The new TSX shows exactly honda failing at this, the innovation and reliability along with design failed HARD to what it should have been (no offense to current 3G TSX owners).

I'd work for honda for free if propositioned and help out the brand that I grew up with. Hopefully they see the light, but like one member said "honda hasn't always made the smartest decisions"

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Unintuitive was probably the wrong word.

In almost any car I hop into, I can look at the HVAC controls once and from then on I dont need to look at it to adjust while driving. Every time I use the Accords HVAC I have to look at it. Its not like Ive driven the car once or twice. Ive put many miles on both an 08 sedan and a coupe. Not only that, reaching over the console to adjust fan speed is ridiculous.

Why is the front defogger on the driver side and the rear defroster on the passenger side? Theyve since addressed that, as they are both next to each other. It was just a bad layout in my opinion. The TL isnt. Everything is grouped properly and easy enough to see and use without looking at it. The Accord, not so.

csmeance

IMO the 3G TL ranks at the top, then the 2G MDX, then the RL and ZDX tie for 3rd.

majin ssj eric

I don't think its the number of buttons HOnda uses but the arrangement. My G37 has a lot of buttons too but they are organized more logically. The Accord's buttons look as though they were just crammed in wherever there was room with no thought to how they were actually being organized.....

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think it also has to do with personal preference. Whenever I sit in someone else's car, it's going to take some time to find the right buttons. This is especially true on European cars IMO. I think once you start driving the car for a while, it should be pretty easy to figure out where everything is.

CL6

Not too many buttons, but I think some of them are too large. I prefer the similarity of the buttons as shown in the photo of the MB E Class but I agree, Acura is maybe not treated fairly regarding the interior design when compared to some of its competitors.

YetiTL

We have a winner! Any high-tech car is either gonna have loads of buttons or various sub-menus. I prefer the buttons as it is easier to adjust on the fly and require less time than sub-menus.

CarbonGray Earl

^^to be honest, I'll take either of those and just learn.

Re: Benz vs. Acura interiors....I've had both last really long times for me. However, Benz has some really nice, long lasting interiors. My grandma passed down her '86 190e to me, and the leather, wood, and plastics are still doing great. Better than alot of cars bought in the early 2000s. Acura's last as well, but my TSX leather isn't as good as the Benz's. By contrast, the BMWs I've owned or experienced aren't as good, IMHO.

But, ya, the button layout/function/labeling is a little funky in Benz's.

F23A4

Honestly, I like the simplicity of the dash in my old 07 Accord V6.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

^ I agree. I drove a 2005 hybrid and was impressed with the interior. The new one looks more generic to me, and no more modern.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Out of curiosity, what are the maintenance costs like on a 760Li, if I may be so bold?

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Big

My mom used to have an 04 sedan with navi. I loved the simple layout and the touchscreen. The new joystick isnt bad though and the screen doesnt have as much glare on the 08-up models though.

HondaOnWORKS

Are you serious? What does price have to do with the "league". The TSX doesn't need to be priced in the 40K range to be considered as "Entry level luxury" Actually, if you look around many sites, they claim the TSX is "Entry level luxury" like the IS250, C300, 328i, A4.

The TSX offers almost the same features as the 3 series, C300, and A4. (With some minor differences) Ex. Back two windows auto.

Acura will never price the TSX near the competition, because Acura wants to offer the luxurious features the competition offers, but for a bit cheaper. My argument against this is: Look at Infiniti's G37 sedan. Its 45K OTD almost, that will drive consumers to look at European models because they are paying over 40K. However, if a Japanese car like Acura TSX gives the same features but for almost 10K less. I think we all want a deal, right?

Take a look at the IS250, the TSX I4 offers almost the same features as the IS250 (with minor differences) and with the bonus of the TSX giving better 0-60 and 1/4 mine times, also better handling. And better MPG. At a cheaper price, which will make buyers choose the TSX over the IS250. The people that clearly ignore the price difference and the similarity just wants it for the brand, Lexus.

Minor differences such as: Push Start(I mean to me. That isn't a deal breaker, and also MB and BMW don't come standard with it. They make you pay nearly $600 for the option. I find the Push Start useless, anyways =P), the Acura TSX don't need a 6spd automatic (Even with the 5spd automatic, the TSX produces better MPG than the Lexus IS250. EPA for Lexus IS250 21/30, EPA for Acura TSX I4 22/31). Back two windows Auto, which I don't think even matters.

I think the Acura TSX is well in the Audi A4, C300, IS250, 328i, and G25's league, because of the features it offers. It just kinda annoys me that you sorta implied that the Acura TSX will be luxurious if its priced similar. What does price have to do with luxury? Its like saying, the GTR isn't a supercar unless its priced similar to the Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Pagani range. That's what you basically said.

Even Infiniti see Acura as a luxury company. There was a press release when the G25 came out, and Infiniti stated they want the G25 to better competition with the Acura TSX I4, IS250, C300, A4, and 328I.

You might not see Acura as a luxury company, but I do. I mean if the Acura TSX offers almost the same luxury equipment as the competition, its in the competition. Until, you give me a REAL reason why isn't the Acura TSX in the same league as the A4, C300, 328i, IS250, and G25. The TSX still stands in the competition, because price isn't the real reason. *Refers back to my GTR argument*

"A brand is considered luxury when buyers are willing to buy it's products at a premium price."

Can't I say, "A car is considered to be an exotic when buyers are willing to buy that car at a premium price." (In terms of what exotics usually cost these days, around the 150K+ range)

GTR isn't an exotic then =(

Price has nothing to do with luxury. Besides, I don't know where you live, but 32~33K USD for an Acura TSX, that's pretty premium to me. I find anything over 30 grand to be expensive. And to say the Acura TSX isn't at a premium price, that's insulting to a lot of poor folks.

HondaOnWORKS

"The new TSX shows exactly honda failing at this, the innovation and reliability along with design failed HARD to what it should have been (no offense to current 3G TSX owners)"

TL owners and 4G TL owners? or do you mean 2G TSX owners?

If 2G TSX, I personally think the new 2G TSX is pretty good. Offers more luxurious features as of 011, and the design is starting to look not that bad to me now.

misdeismo

This conservative strategy that Honda is using as its development mantra doesn't makes sense all across the market space. While there are conservative buyers at every segment level, I'm sure the ratio declines as vehicle price increases.

Their strategy really holds true up until the TL price range. After that, they need to understand that many people associate paying more with "getting more" such as more cylinders and a powertrain thats capable of handling increased power.

The RL doesn't need to change one bit other than to add an optional V8 that produces at least 400hp and a standard V6 that produces around 330hp. Let the TL be the top "conservative" model.

TSX-Tuner

"Ahead of the curve" has been replaced by "Refined Exhilaration" for the RL.

Whatever that means.