Acura: Development and Technology News
11-09-2010, 12:04 PM
#2682
Safety Car
My Guess
11-09-2010, 12:04 PM
#2683
Autonews
Honda Motor Co. survived the global financial crisis better than most, avoiding the full-year losses seen on many balance sheets. But Honda's rebound has not been as sharp as most of the rest of the industry. American Honda's sales rose only 3 percent through September, compared with the 10 percent advance for the U.S. market as a whole. Its market share shrank to 10.6 percent, from 11.3 percent a year earlier.
But Honda Motor CEO Takanobu Ito says new products, led by the redesigned Odyssey minivan, will deliver above-average growth in 2011. A blitz of new technologies is also on tap for the next two years, including a hybrid system for mid-sized to large vehicles, an electric car and a small clean diesel drivetrain. Honda also will start overhauling gasoline engines and transmissions.
Ito, 57, spoke with Asia Editor Hans Greimel through an interpreter at Honda's headquarters in Tokyo about the latest technology drive, the positioning of the Acura brand and Ito's market outlook.
Honda's U.S. sales growth is slower than the industry average. Where will it be next year?
Our sales are slightly below our initial expectations. But for next year we will have help from the new Odyssey, an incredibly strong product [which launched this fall in the United States]. The biggest reason our sales are slightly behind is due to the good growth of Hyundai, especially the Sonata. To counter that, we have plans to make the Accord and Civic far more attractive. So for next year, we should be able to get sales growth above the market average.
Has the traditional rivalry between the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry turned into a three-horse race with the Hyundai Sonata?
It has become a competitor.
What models do you see delivering the biggest U.S. sales growth?
The segment that's showing relatively good growth is the light-truck category. And under those circumstances, we are introducing the highly competitive new Odyssey, for which I have high expectations.
The styling looks really sharp. And it comes equipped with a six-speed automatic transmission and our original cylinder deactivation system, which is a big contributor to fuel efficiency and has been further refined. So it combines good driving, good fuel efficiency and good looks. And this has all been developed in the United States by Americans for the American market. I'm very confident that with the Odyssey, we've come out with a good car at the right time.
What about small cars? Are Americans ready to buy them?
With overall demand in such severe shape, it has become difficult to forecast how acceptable the market finds small cars. But if you look from a long-term perspective, demand for small cars -- in our case, the Fit class -- will grow. But it may take some time.
Does that apply to hybrids as well? Sales have been sluggish this year.
Although American people talk about fuel economy, they are sensitive to the price of gasoline. They have the natural tendency to like something big and powerful. Therefore, my impression is that demand for technologies specializing in fuel economy, such as hybrid vehicles, would be impacted by the fuel price.
However, in the long run, we must reduce carbon dioxide, and we must increase the attractiveness of products, and hybrid technology has great potential here. Hybrid is a very good technology to make the vehicle more powerful and to increase fuel economy. I think it is important for us to continue refining our hybrid technologies patiently so that we can prepare even better products with more affordability.
What are you doing to make Honda's hybrids more attractive?
We developed a simple one-motor hybrid system called IMA. The key to the success of IMA is how simple it is, how low the cost can be and how it can be made a natural part of the vehicle's system. I want to grow this technology as the most efficient, in terms of return on investment, and a technology to improve fuel economy.
We are also developing a hybrid system for larger-size vehicles with a goal to make it contribute not only to fuel economy but to the attractiveness of the products. The concept for this hybrid is significantly different.
You are introducing the larger hybrid system in 2012. What percentage of your global sales volume will be hybrid vehicles by 2015?
Maybe around 10 percent by 2015. Even after the bigger hybrids, sales aren't going to grow exponentially. The conventional gasoline engine will remain the mainstream. The volume for large-sized vehicles is not so large to begin with, so applying hybrid there won't bring about major change. The small-sized IMA system will remain the contributing factor.
If you look to 2015, I don't think there will be that much of an impact from rising fuel prices or more stringent regulations. But by around 2020, the social situation surrounding the market may be different, and probably carbon dioxide regulations will be made even more stringent.
How big is a big hybrid in Honda's view?
A hybrid system suitable for the class of vehicle equipped with a V-6 engine is called large size. Obviously, we will further advance the conventional V-6-equipped vehicles for more power and fuel efficiency. But by adding a hybrid model, we will add a more powerful and more fuel-efficient option.
Honda also plans to overhaul its gasoline engine and transmission lineup starting in 2012. What are the key improvements?
Our products must impress customers with great engines, and thus, that is how we are developing our vehicles. But we are not ready to unveil what we are doing. It is a fact that we are accelerating the development of hybrid technology, where we were slightly behind, because it is a must-have item for the next era. However, hybrid sales will probably be only 10 percent of sales by 2015. Therefore, there is no doubt that the advancement of the conventional engine is important for our business.
What are your plans for positioning the Acura brand?
We are having a lot of discussions about Acura and which way it should be going. And what we confirmed is that the brand direction should be smart premium, not top tier.
Among the technologies we have at Honda, we must apply those that symbolize our advanced performance technology and environmental technology. We call this "smart." We agreed that smart premium is what we should be targeting with Acura, not the upper-segment vehicles such as Lexus or Mercedes-Benz. We must apply advanced technologies which make our vehicle more fun to drive, achieve a more comfortable drive and high environmental performance.
How is the stronger yen affecting Honda, and what are you doing?
The best risk-hedging approach is to establish a business structure focused not only on the United States and Japan but also on utilizing other production sites worldwide, meaning the rest of Asia, China, South America and other areas. Build a system where all those production sites complement each other with some of their local specialty products and locally sold products.
When you think foreign exchange rates, you need to take into consideration the yuan vs. the yen, the yen vs. the dollar, the baht vs. the dollar and so on. Traditionally, we have been concerned mostly with the U.S. dollar vs. the yen. But the proportional weight of those transactions in our global sales volume is getting lower.
Does that mean you might be importing more vehicles or components to Japan?
We have no definitive plans to do that, but we have imported vehicles before. About 15 years ago, we imported the Accord wagon from the United States. This was not due to foreign exchange considerations. It was done more to complement local products.
None of our plants has recovered to full production since the Lehman Brothers collapse and global financial crisis. The U.S. plants are probably at around 80 percent of capacity. Japan is probably around 70 percent to 80 percent. The same applies to other production sites in Asia except for China, which is operating close to full capacity.
Since the financial crisis, none of the sites have been overwhelmed by demand in excess of their capacity. Depending on how the foreign exchange situation continues, it is possible that we could import cars into Japan. This is nothing new to us. We have done this in the past.
What adjustments do you see in your U.S. production footprint in the near term?
The foreign exchange situation has the potential to change very dramatically, when we least expect it. It is very difficult to deal with. Currently, both Japan and the United States have excess production capacity. So if the foreign currency situation continues like this, there is a possibility that there could be a gradual shift of production to the United States. But I have no intention to bring about any sudden, dramatic changes.
What may be possible, for example, is this: We now produce the Accord in Japan and export some to the United States and other countries. But perhaps the portion that is going to other countries may eventually be sourced from the United States. That's something we are thinking about. It would also be good for the United States.
What change would you most like to see in the U.S. dealer network?
We have a good, strong U.S. dealer network, so I'm not thinking of changing anything specifically for 2011, 2012. What's most important is finding out and taking in what U.S. customers really find attractive in products, be it affordability or other features. We need to reinforce that in the early stage and build that into our products to further strengthen our brand identity. That is our first priority.
But Honda Motor CEO Takanobu Ito says new products, led by the redesigned Odyssey minivan, will deliver above-average growth in 2011. A blitz of new technologies is also on tap for the next two years, including a hybrid system for mid-sized to large vehicles, an electric car and a small clean diesel drivetrain. Honda also will start overhauling gasoline engines and transmissions.
Ito, 57, spoke with Asia Editor Hans Greimel through an interpreter at Honda's headquarters in Tokyo about the latest technology drive, the positioning of the Acura brand and Ito's market outlook.
Honda's U.S. sales growth is slower than the industry average. Where will it be next year?
Our sales are slightly below our initial expectations. But for next year we will have help from the new Odyssey, an incredibly strong product [which launched this fall in the United States]. The biggest reason our sales are slightly behind is due to the good growth of Hyundai, especially the Sonata. To counter that, we have plans to make the Accord and Civic far more attractive. So for next year, we should be able to get sales growth above the market average.
Has the traditional rivalry between the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry turned into a three-horse race with the Hyundai Sonata?
It has become a competitor.
What models do you see delivering the biggest U.S. sales growth?
The segment that's showing relatively good growth is the light-truck category. And under those circumstances, we are introducing the highly competitive new Odyssey, for which I have high expectations.
The styling looks really sharp. And it comes equipped with a six-speed automatic transmission and our original cylinder deactivation system, which is a big contributor to fuel efficiency and has been further refined. So it combines good driving, good fuel efficiency and good looks. And this has all been developed in the United States by Americans for the American market. I'm very confident that with the Odyssey, we've come out with a good car at the right time.
What about small cars? Are Americans ready to buy them?
With overall demand in such severe shape, it has become difficult to forecast how acceptable the market finds small cars. But if you look from a long-term perspective, demand for small cars -- in our case, the Fit class -- will grow. But it may take some time.
Does that apply to hybrids as well? Sales have been sluggish this year.
Although American people talk about fuel economy, they are sensitive to the price of gasoline. They have the natural tendency to like something big and powerful. Therefore, my impression is that demand for technologies specializing in fuel economy, such as hybrid vehicles, would be impacted by the fuel price.
However, in the long run, we must reduce carbon dioxide, and we must increase the attractiveness of products, and hybrid technology has great potential here. Hybrid is a very good technology to make the vehicle more powerful and to increase fuel economy. I think it is important for us to continue refining our hybrid technologies patiently so that we can prepare even better products with more affordability.
What are you doing to make Honda's hybrids more attractive?
We developed a simple one-motor hybrid system called IMA. The key to the success of IMA is how simple it is, how low the cost can be and how it can be made a natural part of the vehicle's system. I want to grow this technology as the most efficient, in terms of return on investment, and a technology to improve fuel economy.
We are also developing a hybrid system for larger-size vehicles with a goal to make it contribute not only to fuel economy but to the attractiveness of the products. The concept for this hybrid is significantly different.
You are introducing the larger hybrid system in 2012. What percentage of your global sales volume will be hybrid vehicles by 2015?
Maybe around 10 percent by 2015. Even after the bigger hybrids, sales aren't going to grow exponentially. The conventional gasoline engine will remain the mainstream. The volume for large-sized vehicles is not so large to begin with, so applying hybrid there won't bring about major change. The small-sized IMA system will remain the contributing factor.
If you look to 2015, I don't think there will be that much of an impact from rising fuel prices or more stringent regulations. But by around 2020, the social situation surrounding the market may be different, and probably carbon dioxide regulations will be made even more stringent.
How big is a big hybrid in Honda's view?
A hybrid system suitable for the class of vehicle equipped with a V-6 engine is called large size. Obviously, we will further advance the conventional V-6-equipped vehicles for more power and fuel efficiency. But by adding a hybrid model, we will add a more powerful and more fuel-efficient option.
Honda also plans to overhaul its gasoline engine and transmission lineup starting in 2012. What are the key improvements?
Our products must impress customers with great engines, and thus, that is how we are developing our vehicles. But we are not ready to unveil what we are doing. It is a fact that we are accelerating the development of hybrid technology, where we were slightly behind, because it is a must-have item for the next era. However, hybrid sales will probably be only 10 percent of sales by 2015. Therefore, there is no doubt that the advancement of the conventional engine is important for our business.
What are your plans for positioning the Acura brand?
We are having a lot of discussions about Acura and which way it should be going. And what we confirmed is that the brand direction should be smart premium, not top tier.
Among the technologies we have at Honda, we must apply those that symbolize our advanced performance technology and environmental technology. We call this "smart." We agreed that smart premium is what we should be targeting with Acura, not the upper-segment vehicles such as Lexus or Mercedes-Benz. We must apply advanced technologies which make our vehicle more fun to drive, achieve a more comfortable drive and high environmental performance.
How is the stronger yen affecting Honda, and what are you doing?
The best risk-hedging approach is to establish a business structure focused not only on the United States and Japan but also on utilizing other production sites worldwide, meaning the rest of Asia, China, South America and other areas. Build a system where all those production sites complement each other with some of their local specialty products and locally sold products.
When you think foreign exchange rates, you need to take into consideration the yuan vs. the yen, the yen vs. the dollar, the baht vs. the dollar and so on. Traditionally, we have been concerned mostly with the U.S. dollar vs. the yen. But the proportional weight of those transactions in our global sales volume is getting lower.
Does that mean you might be importing more vehicles or components to Japan?
We have no definitive plans to do that, but we have imported vehicles before. About 15 years ago, we imported the Accord wagon from the United States. This was not due to foreign exchange considerations. It was done more to complement local products.
None of our plants has recovered to full production since the Lehman Brothers collapse and global financial crisis. The U.S. plants are probably at around 80 percent of capacity. Japan is probably around 70 percent to 80 percent. The same applies to other production sites in Asia except for China, which is operating close to full capacity.
Since the financial crisis, none of the sites have been overwhelmed by demand in excess of their capacity. Depending on how the foreign exchange situation continues, it is possible that we could import cars into Japan. This is nothing new to us. We have done this in the past.
What adjustments do you see in your U.S. production footprint in the near term?
The foreign exchange situation has the potential to change very dramatically, when we least expect it. It is very difficult to deal with. Currently, both Japan and the United States have excess production capacity. So if the foreign currency situation continues like this, there is a possibility that there could be a gradual shift of production to the United States. But I have no intention to bring about any sudden, dramatic changes.
What may be possible, for example, is this: We now produce the Accord in Japan and export some to the United States and other countries. But perhaps the portion that is going to other countries may eventually be sourced from the United States. That's something we are thinking about. It would also be good for the United States.
What change would you most like to see in the U.S. dealer network?
We have a good, strong U.S. dealer network, so I'm not thinking of changing anything specifically for 2011, 2012. What's most important is finding out and taking in what U.S. customers really find attractive in products, be it affordability or other features. We need to reinforce that in the early stage and build that into our products to further strengthen our brand identity. That is our first priority.
11-09-2010, 12:10 PM
#2684
What are your plans for positioning the Acura brand?
We are having a lot of discussions about Acura and which way it should be going
They are STILL discussing what to to with the Acura brand..
great(
to be SMART PREMIUM not TOP TIER.
I'm lost in translation...
We are having a lot of discussions about Acura and which way it should be going
They are STILL discussing what to to with the Acura brand..
great(
to be SMART PREMIUM not TOP TIER.
I'm lost in translation...
11-09-2010, 12:12 PM
#2685
11-09-2010, 12:50 PM
#2686
Go Big Blue!
Smart permium. Translation: we wimped out and have decided the next step is too risky, especially with this economy and Hyundai coming up in the rearview mirror, so we're staying where we are for now but wanted to come up with a new term to make it sound like we are doing something different.
11-09-2010, 12:54 PM
#2687
Go Big Blue!
Yea the IS350 reference must have just been regarding style or size. Corolla and/or previous gen TSX sized . it can't be a reference to it's performance attributes or price point. That would be illogical for the lineup and contradict what they are saying about a "sub" tsx model. It was probably a stupid comparison to use
11-09-2010, 01:13 PM
#2689
Senior Moderator
We have 2 thread competing for the same audience. Lets try and keep this thread specific to the upcoming Sub-TSX model and use this thread
https://acurazine.com/forums/automotive-news-6/honda-development-technology-news-119005/
for general Future Honda/Acura discussion.
Thanks
https://acurazine.com/forums/automotive-news-6/honda-development-technology-news-119005/
for general Future Honda/Acura discussion.
Thanks
11-09-2010, 01:28 PM
#2690
AZ Community Team
Smart permium. Translation: we wimped out and have decided the next step is too risky, especially with this economy and Hyundai coming up in the rearview mirror, so we're staying where we are for now but wanted to come up with a new term to make it sound like we are doing something different.
11-09-2010, 01:29 PM
#2691
My first Avatar....
11-09-2010, 02:35 PM
#2693
11-09-2010, 03:53 PM
#2694
Senior Moderator
We have 2 thread competing for the same audience. Lets try and keep this thread specific to the upcoming Sub-TSX model and use this thread
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119005
for general Future Honda/Acura discussion.
Thanks
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119005
for general Future Honda/Acura discussion.
Thanks
Carry on.
11-09-2010, 06:46 PM
#2695
Burning Brakes
I didn't realize the TSX grew to ES proportions. It may have gotten a little larger but it definitely isn't that big. It's probably larger than a 3-series but not larger than an A4. Of course now the TL feels more like a competitor to the GS rather than the ES.I'll accept that something was lost in translation, or that it was just a poor comparison, however.
11-09-2010, 07:00 PM
#2696
Safety Car
Es350
I did not mean to suggest that the TSX is now the size of an ES350 ... I just meant that Acura probably sees the future of their lineup as this:
CSX/RSX vs. IS250
TSX vs. ES250
TL vs. GS350
RL vs. LS460
Basically pitting them by where they fall in their respective lineups ... of course Honda/Acura likes to go off in its own direction a lot so it can be heard to group their vehicles w/ others. The current TL is approaching the GS350 segment in SH-AWD tech form & if the rumor of a larger RL is true, it is probably going to approach the LS460 segment as well (@ least in some variants.TSX vs. ES250
TL vs. GS350
RL vs. LS460
11-09-2010, 08:28 PM
#2697
Burning Brakes
That seems about right, but that new "CSX" better be designed to be an actual competitor to the IS. The current CSX is nowhere near it.
As for the TSX comparison, maybe they're trying to place the TSX in between the IS and the ES, like Acura has been known to do (think last-gen TL/RL).
As for the TSX comparison, maybe they're trying to place the TSX in between the IS and the ES, like Acura has been known to do (think last-gen TL/RL).
11-13-2010, 08:04 PM
#2698
My first Avatar....
I know this is an old link from 2009, BUT...open it up and look at the rendering.
Why can't something like this actually come out of Acura?
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...the-works.html
Here is the copy that goes with the rendering:
I did NOT add the bold text. 
Why can't something like this actually come out of Acura?
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...the-works.html
Here is the copy that goes with the rendering:
It seems as though the upcoming Acura ZDX isn’t the only new model Honda’s luxury arm is planning to release in the near future. Both German auto pub Auto Motor und Sport and Japan’s Holiday Auto are both reporting that four-door coupe is in the works and that is likely to be based off the European Honda Accord/North American Acura TSX platform. Holiday Auto even included a few renderings, shown above and below.
A base version of the car would use Honda’s 200hp, 2.4-liter four-cylinder engine with a front-wheel drive layout. A high-performance model would get a 260hp turbocharged 2.3-liter 4-cylinder with a double-clutch paddle-shift transmission and SH-AWD. A V6 powerplant is possible, but unlikely as manufacturers search to use lower displacement forced induction engines to improve fuel economy.
Unfortunately as it will be branded as an Acura in North America the car is likely to get the company’s hideous new front end – and not a nice Honda design like the one shown in the rendering.
The car would slot-in between the TSX and TL, competing with vehicles like the Volkswagen CC and is due out in 2010.
A base version of the car would use Honda’s 200hp, 2.4-liter four-cylinder engine with a front-wheel drive layout. A high-performance model would get a 260hp turbocharged 2.3-liter 4-cylinder with a double-clutch paddle-shift transmission and SH-AWD. A V6 powerplant is possible, but unlikely as manufacturers search to use lower displacement forced induction engines to improve fuel economy.
Unfortunately as it will be branded as an Acura in North America the car is likely to get the company’s hideous new front end – and not a nice Honda design like the one shown in the rendering.
The car would slot-in between the TSX and TL, competing with vehicles like the Volkswagen CC and is due out in 2010.
12-07-2010, 07:53 AM
#2699
Safety Car
Edmunds
2011 Acura MDX: With only minor changes to the exterior color and interior trim, the MDX lacks any significant revisions for 2011.
2011 Acura RDX: Like the larger MDX, the 2011 RDX gets only minor changes to its exterior colors and interior trim this year.
2011 Acura RL: A new front fascia, updated grille and new 18-inch wheels are the most obvious changes to the RL for 2011. Inside there are new front and rear headrests, revised seat stitching, a new gauge cluster and updated wood grain. Functional changes to the navigation system include improved telephone dialing and voice recognition. Parking sensors and power-folding side mirrors are also new.
Underneath there's a new 6-speed automatic transmission with sequential shifting. The new gearbox provides better acceleration and improved highway fuel economy. Subframe and transmission mounts have also been revised.
2011 Acura TL: After a complete redesign for 2010 the TL continues with only minor changes to the exterior color and interior trim in 2011.
2011 Acura TSX: A midcycle refresh of the TSX includes styling updates, interior tweaks and the introduction of a Sport Wagon style.
Exterior changes include new front and rear fascias, a new front grille, revised taillights and new 17-inch wheels. Interior updates include new trim, seat stitching and rear air-conditioning vents. There's now a 60GB hard-drive-based navigation system with a color screen. A 15GB hard-drive audio system replaces the previous six-disc CD changer. Updates to the TSX's Bluetooth system improve voice recognition. LED interior lights combine with additional underbody sound insulation and an acoustic glass windshield to reduce interior noise.
Retuned transmission shift logic combines with enhanced aerodynamics to increase city and highway fuel economy.
2011 Acura ZDX: All-new last year, the 2011 ZDX continues with only minor changes to the exterior color palette and interior trim.
12-07-2010, 08:24 AM
#2700
Go Big Blue!
I thought the 2011 TL was get the 6at and a revised face, but no mention of it in that summary. There was a typo on that line saying the TL was redesigned in 2010, so maybe Edmunds summary of the TL is a little off.
12-07-2010, 08:54 AM
#2701
Three Wheelin'
2012 will bring a revised fascia 6AT, and advanced package to the TL... we'll see in a few months.
12-07-2010, 09:12 AM
#2702
Go Big Blue!
12-14-2010, 12:37 PM
#2703
Yup, build out is starting with Jan production. No more orders of any AWD HPT models so whatever we have in the pipeline is what we'll make do with till the 2012s arrive.
12-15-2010, 02:18 PM
#2704
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/406560...usiness-autos/
Honda is getting busy, going into the holidays, offering automotive journalists a sneak preview of its most important product launch of the coming year.
The rendering of the all-new, 2012 Civic reveals a sleekly aerodynamic coupe, one Honda hopes will catch the eye of buyers in an increasingly competitive compact car market. Critics say the Japanese automaker may be losing its edge, and so the ninth generation of the Civic is going to be critical to Honda’s future success.
Scheduled to make its first formal appearance at next month’s Detroit Auto Show, the Civic has long been — along with the bigger Accord — the foundation of the Honda brand. And even as it approaches the end of its life cycle, Civic remains the 11th-best-selling vehicle in the U.S. market.
..Though Honda has significantly expanded its line-up in recent years, its newer models — both in the mainstream Honda and upscale Acura brands — have proved less than stellar successes, leaving many observers wondering whether the maker has lost its way.
“Honda has always been an innovative company,” said George Peterson, head of the market research firm, AutoPacific. “But lately they’ve been missing the mark.”
At first blush, that comment might come as a surprise. After all, the automaker posted a 16.1 percent sales increase in November, in sharp contrast to the decline reported by arch-rival Toyota. For the year-to-date, American Honda sales — which include the Acura division — total 1.101 million, up from 1.044 million during the first 11 months of 2009.
But it only requires parsing the numbers a bit to see what's causing Peterson and other analysts concern. Much of the recent sales surge is the result of the re-launched 2011 Honda Odyssey minivan, and to a lesser degree old-line models like the Civic, the Accord and, on the Acura side, the entry-level TSX.
.But some of Honda’s more recent additions have either come in short of expectations or proved downright disasters. There’s no better example than the Acura ZDX, a quirky coupe/crossover blend that has been much-maligned by the automotive media and largely ignored by potential buyers. November sales totaled just 156, with year-to-date volume of 3,006.
The new Honda Insight, which was supposed to help the carmaker regain its early strength in the hybrid-electric vehicle segment, has also been a disappointment, selling at little more than a fraction of the anticipated rate. Analysts also have questioned the market performance of Honda’s other new hybrid, the sporty CR-Z, though company officials challenge that criticism.
“It’s doing well according to our expectations, though journalists think it should sell” much better, said Steve Center, American Honda’s national marketing director.
Center acknowledges there are some challenges facing Honda, though he points to the maker’s overall market performance as proof positive it is still doing well. If anything, its double-digit gain in November validates the maker’s decision to go light on its marketing budget, which lags competitors like Toyota in spending on both advertising and incentives.
The Honda executive also points to a curious quirk in Honda’s historical performance in the American market.
“In bad years, our share increases and in good years, it declines,” reflecting Honda’s policy of not trying to overbuild and force cars onto the market, even if that means occasionally being short of supply at the showroom level, he said.
Ironically, Honda has often done better in down markets than when the auto industry is in growth mode. Is Honda just following that pattern now?
Peterson and other analysts aren’t so certain. The weak performance of new models is troubling and could point to problems with more mainstream offerings, warns Joe Phillippi, of AutoTrends Consulting. The reaction to the new Civic, he suggests, will be a clear measure of what many believe is a misfiring design department.
“Their styling has gotten totally off-track,” contends Phillippi, pointing not only to the ZDX but also to the quirky look of the new Odyssey minivan, with its oddly-angled rear side windows.
Acura has taken the toughest criticism, much of it aimed at the almost comic book-style shield the maker has adopted for a grille on all of its offerings. Significantly, the upcoming Acura TSX Sport Wagon notably downsizes the vast chrome mass — which American Honda’s Center admits has been “polarizing.”
But Acura has other problems. It hasn’t regained its footing after a decision, some years ago, to abandon well-known brand names, like Legend, in favor of less distinctive names like TSX, RL and ZDX. The brand's difficulty defining itself compounds that issue. In recent years, even senior officials have questioned whether Acura is a luxury brand, after all.
“Anyone in this building who says this isn’t a luxury brand is mistaken,” Center said from Honda’s U.S. headquarters. But whether inside or out, he concedes “one of the problems we’ve had is a communications problem.”
.Internally, Honda is spending a lot of effort developing a clear focus for the Acura brand and Center promises that a wave of new products coming “within the next two years … will address this.”
Story: Automakers, utilities aim to make Calif. plug-in car leader
As for the Honda side, the carmaker is taking efforts to shore up weak offerings. There have been widespread news reports that the CR-Z will soon get a conventional powertrain to accompany the hybrid version, for example — something the company is, at least for the moment, denying.
“Their engineering still turns people on,” said Phillippi, who believes the automaker can recover from its current problems — especially the mainstream Honda brand.
One reason for that optimism is research by Experian Automotive showing Honda doing better than any other brand in picking up customers walking away from Toyota — still troubled by its ongoing safety and quality problems. That could help Honda weather its own, less violent storm while it struggles to reconnect with the market. The response to the new Civic will be the first test of whether it is getting back on track.
Honda is getting busy, going into the holidays, offering automotive journalists a sneak preview of its most important product launch of the coming year.
The rendering of the all-new, 2012 Civic reveals a sleekly aerodynamic coupe, one Honda hopes will catch the eye of buyers in an increasingly competitive compact car market. Critics say the Japanese automaker may be losing its edge, and so the ninth generation of the Civic is going to be critical to Honda’s future success.
Scheduled to make its first formal appearance at next month’s Detroit Auto Show, the Civic has long been — along with the bigger Accord — the foundation of the Honda brand. And even as it approaches the end of its life cycle, Civic remains the 11th-best-selling vehicle in the U.S. market.
..Though Honda has significantly expanded its line-up in recent years, its newer models — both in the mainstream Honda and upscale Acura brands — have proved less than stellar successes, leaving many observers wondering whether the maker has lost its way.
“Honda has always been an innovative company,” said George Peterson, head of the market research firm, AutoPacific. “But lately they’ve been missing the mark.”
At first blush, that comment might come as a surprise. After all, the automaker posted a 16.1 percent sales increase in November, in sharp contrast to the decline reported by arch-rival Toyota. For the year-to-date, American Honda sales — which include the Acura division — total 1.101 million, up from 1.044 million during the first 11 months of 2009.
But it only requires parsing the numbers a bit to see what's causing Peterson and other analysts concern. Much of the recent sales surge is the result of the re-launched 2011 Honda Odyssey minivan, and to a lesser degree old-line models like the Civic, the Accord and, on the Acura side, the entry-level TSX.
.But some of Honda’s more recent additions have either come in short of expectations or proved downright disasters. There’s no better example than the Acura ZDX, a quirky coupe/crossover blend that has been much-maligned by the automotive media and largely ignored by potential buyers. November sales totaled just 156, with year-to-date volume of 3,006.
The new Honda Insight, which was supposed to help the carmaker regain its early strength in the hybrid-electric vehicle segment, has also been a disappointment, selling at little more than a fraction of the anticipated rate. Analysts also have questioned the market performance of Honda’s other new hybrid, the sporty CR-Z, though company officials challenge that criticism.
“It’s doing well according to our expectations, though journalists think it should sell” much better, said Steve Center, American Honda’s national marketing director.
Center acknowledges there are some challenges facing Honda, though he points to the maker’s overall market performance as proof positive it is still doing well. If anything, its double-digit gain in November validates the maker’s decision to go light on its marketing budget, which lags competitors like Toyota in spending on both advertising and incentives.
The Honda executive also points to a curious quirk in Honda’s historical performance in the American market.
“In bad years, our share increases and in good years, it declines,” reflecting Honda’s policy of not trying to overbuild and force cars onto the market, even if that means occasionally being short of supply at the showroom level, he said.
Ironically, Honda has often done better in down markets than when the auto industry is in growth mode. Is Honda just following that pattern now?
Peterson and other analysts aren’t so certain. The weak performance of new models is troubling and could point to problems with more mainstream offerings, warns Joe Phillippi, of AutoTrends Consulting. The reaction to the new Civic, he suggests, will be a clear measure of what many believe is a misfiring design department.
“Their styling has gotten totally off-track,” contends Phillippi, pointing not only to the ZDX but also to the quirky look of the new Odyssey minivan, with its oddly-angled rear side windows.
Acura has taken the toughest criticism, much of it aimed at the almost comic book-style shield the maker has adopted for a grille on all of its offerings. Significantly, the upcoming Acura TSX Sport Wagon notably downsizes the vast chrome mass — which American Honda’s Center admits has been “polarizing.”
But Acura has other problems. It hasn’t regained its footing after a decision, some years ago, to abandon well-known brand names, like Legend, in favor of less distinctive names like TSX, RL and ZDX. The brand's difficulty defining itself compounds that issue. In recent years, even senior officials have questioned whether Acura is a luxury brand, after all.
“Anyone in this building who says this isn’t a luxury brand is mistaken,” Center said from Honda’s U.S. headquarters. But whether inside or out, he concedes “one of the problems we’ve had is a communications problem.”
.Internally, Honda is spending a lot of effort developing a clear focus for the Acura brand and Center promises that a wave of new products coming “within the next two years … will address this.”
Story: Automakers, utilities aim to make Calif. plug-in car leader
As for the Honda side, the carmaker is taking efforts to shore up weak offerings. There have been widespread news reports that the CR-Z will soon get a conventional powertrain to accompany the hybrid version, for example — something the company is, at least for the moment, denying.
“Their engineering still turns people on,” said Phillippi, who believes the automaker can recover from its current problems — especially the mainstream Honda brand.
One reason for that optimism is research by Experian Automotive showing Honda doing better than any other brand in picking up customers walking away from Toyota — still troubled by its ongoing safety and quality problems. That could help Honda weather its own, less violent storm while it struggles to reconnect with the market. The response to the new Civic will be the first test of whether it is getting back on track.
12-15-2010, 02:34 PM
#2705
The sizzle in the Steak
“one of the problems we’ve had is a communications problem.”
Ugly designs, and old tech powertrains.
"Bargain brand" Hyundai has more cutting edge powertrains in vehicles that cost thousands and thousands less.
Focus on your product!
12-16-2010, 12:51 AM
#2709
Smart permium. Translation: we wimped out and have decided the next step is too risky, especially with this economy and Hyundai coming up in the rearview mirror, so we're staying where we are for now but wanted to come up with a new term to make it sound like we are doing something different.
What I'm trying to say is: what is the amount gained if you go from selling (say) 70K TLs off an existing chassis (back in 2006), and you start selling [insert number] off a dedicated new chassis? Do they increase by 10%? 20%? Say its 20%. This would be an extra 14,000 TLs. Does an extra 14,000 cars pay for the R&D for an all new chassis?
Yes, I acknowledge they could also build the TSX, RL and a Coupe off this new chassis, but again, we're talking incremental increases over what they would have sold anyway with an existing chassis.
Investing that kind of money in a chassis that might not sell in higher volume that you already have (cause people will only pay 'so much' for a Honda/Acura) could be a double whammy: low sales and high costs. I'm not being melodramatic when I say that such a move could bankrupt the company. Seriously. Or at the very least, make them ripe for a hostile take over. Sorry, but as much as I would have loved selling such product, I think they made the right move.
12-16-2010, 10:40 AM
#2711
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,493
Received 835 Likes
on
519 Posts
Well, Acura once sold 200K cars without a FR chassis (or AWD in sedans), with the highest year for TLs being 70K. I would have characterized this period as one of 'smart luxury' even if they didn't call it that. Of course, this was all pre-recession and pre-power plenum. Assuming that they get the grill sorted out around the time the economy shows signs of real recovery, what is the real potential for a proposed FR chassis and a move upmarket?
What I'm trying to say is: what is the amount gained if you go from selling (say) 70K TLs off an existing chassis (back in 2006), and you start selling [insert number] off a dedicated new chassis? Do they increase by 10%? 20%? Say its 20%. This would be an extra 14,000 TLs. Does an extra 14,000 cars pay for the R&D for an all new chassis?
Yes, I acknowledge they could also build the TSX, RL and a Coupe off this new chassis, but again, we're talking incremental increases over what they would have sold anyway with an existing chassis.
Investing that kind of money in a chassis that might not sell in higher volume that you already have (cause people will only pay 'so much' for a Honda/Acura) could be a double whammy: low sales and high costs. I'm not being melodramatic when I say that such a move could bankrupt the company. Seriously. Or at the very least, make them ripe for a hostile take over. Sorry, but as much as I would have loved selling such product, I think they made the right move.
What I'm trying to say is: what is the amount gained if you go from selling (say) 70K TLs off an existing chassis (back in 2006), and you start selling [insert number] off a dedicated new chassis? Do they increase by 10%? 20%? Say its 20%. This would be an extra 14,000 TLs. Does an extra 14,000 cars pay for the R&D for an all new chassis?
Yes, I acknowledge they could also build the TSX, RL and a Coupe off this new chassis, but again, we're talking incremental increases over what they would have sold anyway with an existing chassis.
Investing that kind of money in a chassis that might not sell in higher volume that you already have (cause people will only pay 'so much' for a Honda/Acura) could be a double whammy: low sales and high costs. I'm not being melodramatic when I say that such a move could bankrupt the company. Seriously. Or at the very least, make them ripe for a hostile take over. Sorry, but as much as I would have loved selling such product, I think they made the right move.
12-16-2010, 12:32 PM
#2712
Senior Moderator
Well, Acura once sold 200K cars without a FR chassis (or AWD in sedans), with the highest year for TLs being 70K. I would have characterized this period as one of 'smart luxury' even if they didn't call it that. Of course, this was all pre-recession and pre-power plenum. Assuming that they get the grill sorted out around the time the economy shows signs of real recovery, what is the real potential for a proposed FR chassis and a move upmarket?
What I'm trying to say is: what is the amount gained if you go from selling (say) 70K TLs off an existing chassis (back in 2006), and you start selling [insert number] off a dedicated new chassis? Do they increase by 10%? 20%? Say its 20%. This would be an extra 14,000 TLs. Does an extra 14,000 cars pay for the R&D for an all new chassis?
Yes, I acknowledge they could also build the TSX, RL and a Coupe off this new chassis, but again, we're talking incremental increases over what they would have sold anyway with an existing chassis.
Investing that kind of money in a chassis that might not sell in higher volume that you already have (cause people will only pay 'so much' for a Honda/Acura) could be a double whammy: low sales and high costs. I'm not being melodramatic when I say that such a move could bankrupt the company. Seriously. Or at the very least, make them ripe for a hostile take over. Sorry, but as much as I would have loved selling such product, I think they made the right move.
What I'm trying to say is: what is the amount gained if you go from selling (say) 70K TLs off an existing chassis (back in 2006), and you start selling [insert number] off a dedicated new chassis? Do they increase by 10%? 20%? Say its 20%. This would be an extra 14,000 TLs. Does an extra 14,000 cars pay for the R&D for an all new chassis?
Yes, I acknowledge they could also build the TSX, RL and a Coupe off this new chassis, but again, we're talking incremental increases over what they would have sold anyway with an existing chassis.
Investing that kind of money in a chassis that might not sell in higher volume that you already have (cause people will only pay 'so much' for a Honda/Acura) could be a double whammy: low sales and high costs. I'm not being melodramatic when I say that such a move could bankrupt the company. Seriously. Or at the very least, make them ripe for a hostile take over. Sorry, but as much as I would have loved selling such product, I think they made the right move.
That said i (along with others) just dont see a direction that Acura is heading. They dont seem to know themselves, which in turn is messing with the designs.
12-16-2010, 01:18 PM
#2713
It may not make sense in the short term but one needs to look at the larger picture of long term and the ability to transform the platform into other vehicles and segments.
That said i (along with others) just dont see a direction that Acura is heading. They dont seem to know themselves, which in turn is messing with the designs.
That said i (along with others) just dont see a direction that Acura is heading. They dont seem to know themselves, which in turn is messing with the designs.
Re direction. I think the direction that Acura is heading is pretty clear and well defined. It's simple and I'm surprised you have such a hard time with it. Typically, Honda kept their future plans close the the vest, giving rise to sites like this where we could discuss rumors. From about 2001, Acura was firmly planted in the 'near-luxury' space, selling between 150-200,000 cars off of 2-3 common chassis' while emphasizing a sensible blend of performance, and value.
By the mid-2000s, flush with this success, they started planning the next round of cars to build on this success. This generation would use the same common chassis', but address the nagging complaints about the brand (in general). 1) Nice designs but kinda boring 2) not enough power 3) Only FWD. They also embraced a new 'openness' with future plans, sharing details about upcoming project like a-VTEC and Fuel Cell tech etc.
By the late-2000s (when these designs were done and hitting the streets) they announced plans to take the brand to new heights with the regrettable tier 1 talk. Then the market collapsed, the intermediate (pre-tier 1 designs if you will) flopped with the general public, fuel prices went skyrocketing and the Feds changed CAFE. Now sites like this seized upon the earlier talk as examples of how "Honda failed to deliver" often ignoring that many projects never see the light of day as a production product.
And here we are. They will no longer share future plans, they re-focusing on the success that they had in the early 2000s as a way to move forward in an uncertain market. In a nutshell, "we're here, we wanted to go there, but now we'll stay here." Simple right?
12-16-2010, 01:31 PM
#2714
Senior Moderator
Well, Acura once sold 200K cars without a FR chassis (or AWD in sedans), with the highest year for TLs being 70K. I would have characterized this period as one of 'smart luxury' even if they didn't call it that. Of course, this was all pre-recession and pre-power plenum. Assuming that they get the grill sorted out around the time the economy shows signs of real recovery, what is the real potential for a proposed FR chassis and a move upmarket?
What I'm trying to say is: what is the amount gained if you go from selling (say) 70K TLs off an existing chassis (back in 2006), and you start selling [insert number] off a dedicated new chassis? Do they increase by 10%? 20%? Say its 20%. This would be an extra 14,000 TLs. Does an extra 14,000 cars pay for the R&D for an all new chassis?
Yes, I acknowledge they could also build the TSX, RL and a Coupe off this new chassis, but again, we're talking incremental increases over what they would have sold anyway with an existing chassis.
Investing that kind of money in a chassis that might not sell in higher volume that you already have (cause people will only pay 'so much' for a Honda/Acura) could be a double whammy: low sales and high costs. I'm not being melodramatic when I say that such a move could bankrupt the company. Seriously. Or at the very least, make them ripe for a hostile take over. Sorry, but as much as I would have loved selling such product, I think they made the right move.
What I'm trying to say is: what is the amount gained if you go from selling (say) 70K TLs off an existing chassis (back in 2006), and you start selling [insert number] off a dedicated new chassis? Do they increase by 10%? 20%? Say its 20%. This would be an extra 14,000 TLs. Does an extra 14,000 cars pay for the R&D for an all new chassis?
Yes, I acknowledge they could also build the TSX, RL and a Coupe off this new chassis, but again, we're talking incremental increases over what they would have sold anyway with an existing chassis.
Investing that kind of money in a chassis that might not sell in higher volume that you already have (cause people will only pay 'so much' for a Honda/Acura) could be a double whammy: low sales and high costs. I'm not being melodramatic when I say that such a move could bankrupt the company. Seriously. Or at the very least, make them ripe for a hostile take over. Sorry, but as much as I would have loved selling such product, I think they made the right move.
IMO two interesting points that you brought up Colin.
This doesn't even cover the fact that you have to support the product (by gov't mandate) for 10 years after it goes out of production. For example, lets say your new chassis has a service life of 15 years, out to 2026. Honda would have to manufacture parts till 2036. What kind of cars will we be driving then?
I'm sure Honda can make a nice sports coupe/GT more dynamic and unique (even in technology) than a 3 series. And cheaper.
If there is one thing we've learned with this generation TL its that when we break 40K, NA consumers will balk. In most cases, they are only interested in an Acura cause they can have [insert Euro car of choice] performance but at a lower price. Once the prices are too close, they buy the other car.
If there is one thing we've learned with this generation TL its that when we break 40K, NA consumers will balk. In most cases, they are only interested in an Acura cause they can have [insert Euro car of choice] performance but at a lower price. Once the prices are too close, they buy the other car.
12-16-2010, 01:41 PM
#2715
12-16-2010, 01:43 PM
#2716
Well, Acura once sold 200K cars without a FR chassis (or AWD in sedans), with the highest year for TLs being 70K. I would have characterized this period as one of 'smart luxury' even if they didn't call it that. Of course, this was all pre-recession and pre-power plenum. Assuming that they get the grill sorted out around the time the economy shows signs of real recovery, what is the real potential for a proposed FR chassis and a move upmarket?
What I'm trying to say is: what is the amount gained if you go from selling (say) 70K TLs off an existing chassis (back in 2006), and you start selling [insert number] off a dedicated new chassis? Do they increase by 10%? 20%? Say its 20%. This would be an extra 14,000 TLs. Does an extra 14,000 cars pay for the R&D for an all new chassis?
Yes, I acknowledge they could also build the TSX, RL and a Coupe off this new chassis, but again, we're talking incremental increases over what they would have sold anyway with an existing chassis.
Investing that kind of money in a chassis that might not sell in higher volume that you already have (cause people will only pay 'so much' for a Honda/Acura) could be a double whammy: low sales and high costs. I'm not being melodramatic when I say that such a move could bankrupt the company. Seriously. Or at the very least, make them ripe for a hostile take over. Sorry, but as much as I would have loved selling such product, I think they made the right move.
What I'm trying to say is: what is the amount gained if you go from selling (say) 70K TLs off an existing chassis (back in 2006), and you start selling [insert number] off a dedicated new chassis? Do they increase by 10%? 20%? Say its 20%. This would be an extra 14,000 TLs. Does an extra 14,000 cars pay for the R&D for an all new chassis?
Yes, I acknowledge they could also build the TSX, RL and a Coupe off this new chassis, but again, we're talking incremental increases over what they would have sold anyway with an existing chassis.
Investing that kind of money in a chassis that might not sell in higher volume that you already have (cause people will only pay 'so much' for a Honda/Acura) could be a double whammy: low sales and high costs. I'm not being melodramatic when I say that such a move could bankrupt the company. Seriously. Or at the very least, make them ripe for a hostile take over. Sorry, but as much as I would have loved selling such product, I think they made the right move.
Then again, what was the problem with continuing using (or a modified version of) the 2g Legend/1g RL(with the longitudinally mounted angine) platform? Remember the short front overhang these cars had? Loved that look!
All I'm(and a lot of posters on here) trying to say is, try to be smart, and stop using(milking) that Accord platform for vehicles that are supposedly luxury! That would be the smart thing to do, IMHO!
Last edited by vybzkartel; 12-16-2010 at 01:46 PM.
12-16-2010, 05:03 PM
#2717
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,493
Received 835 Likes
on
519 Posts
Re direction. I think the direction that Acura is heading is pretty clear and well defined. It's simple and I'm surprised you have such a hard time with it. Typically, Honda kept their future plans close the the vest, giving rise to sites like this where we could discuss rumors. From about 2001, Acura was firmly planted in the 'near-luxury' space, selling between 150-200,000 cars off of 2-3 common chassis' while emphasizing a sensible blend of performance, and value.
12-16-2010, 07:04 PM
#2718
That wasn't what he said. Anyway, the direction is "water under the bridge" at this point, why not move on instead of mentioning it in every other post?
12-16-2010, 07:55 PM
#2719
My first Avatar....
Sure, you've moved on because you'll sell what ever they trot out there. The enthusiast consumer, which granted are small in number in the grand scheme, want something exciting in a car. Not the same old variations on a theme that they've been turning out for years and years. It really is that simple.
12-16-2010, 08:01 PM
#2720
My first Avatar....
Where is this?
or this?
Last edited by pttl; 12-16-2010 at 08:05 PM.