Colin

Move on from whining about it

pttl

Legend2TL

In some ways I agree with that but what happened in the 2000's for Acura was sorta planned by the Honda board in the mid-1990's.

After the old man died, several members of the board at various times became more involved in the high level decisions for Honda in general.

1) One of those issues was the costs of some platforms (NSX, Inspire/1G TL, 2G Legend, 1G RL). There was little platform, component, or tool sharing for these products yet sales of these cars were not great also. Some of that was due to the yen/$ ratio so there was more incentive to build the Acura products inthe US. So there was some initiative to go back to more platform sharing and expand HoA operations.

2) A more conhesive product line, the RL, TL, RSX, CL, NSX and SLX didn't offer that for many reasons. The 3/5/7 series approach seemed more in line with what many Acura dealers were looking for. The fact that few Integra owners migrated to other Acura products made many wonder why it was offered as a Acura. Similar for the NSX, that was suppose to be a halo car for Acura and draw people in, but it was suppose to also make money. It didn't do the second and HoA marketing wasn't sure it was even doing the former.

These brought about some strategic planning that resulted in the light truck line for both Acura and Honda. Also made the 2G/3G TL based heavily on the Accord.

The last thing which I do not know when it decided was the AWD introduction. This made some sense in kinda following Audi, and allowing a more FWD centric platform approach which i'm sure saves alot in tooling and manufacturing. Take a close look at the differential housings used on the MDX and RL and they look identical. Nissan made similar product decisions about a decade ago with Ghoen for the modular FM RWD platforms.

Personally I would have preferred a RWD TL for the future.

dom

I'm in wait and see mode at this point. I've accepted the fact that Honda isn't building a RWD platform. So, lets see what they can do with SH-AWD and some new engines and hopefully a DSG gearbox.

If I don't like what I see I'll be back on the bitching wagon.

TSX69

Acura Finds Sales, Still Seeks Luxury Identity

SAN FRANCISCO -- As Lexus, Mercedes-Benz and BMW battle for luxury brand sales leadership this year, Acura has been flying below the radar -- as usual.

Honda's upscale division has had a solid year. Sales are up 24% over 2009, outpacing the gains made by luxury's big 3. But the recession knocked Acura's ambition to become a 1st-tier luxury player way off course.

To hold down costs, 2 years ago Honda executives in Japan halted plans for a V-8 engine and rear-wheel drive. Now Acura is still trying to figure out "who we are and who we want to be," said Vicki Poponi, American Honda Motor Co.'s assistant vice president for product planning.

The industry crisis changed everything for Acura.

"The direction we were going became irrelevant within 60 days," said Steve Center, chief marketing officer for American Honda, referring to the economic crash after the collapse of Lehman Brothers in the fall of 2008. "We missed the window. We've had to reconnoiter. We had to go with our strengths."

Acura does have strengths. Automotive Lease Guide has rated it the top luxury brand for residual value for the past 2 years. It shot from 14th to second in J.D. Power's Initial Quality Study, trailing only Porsche.

And Acura spends just $2,600 per vehicle on incentives, the lowest of any luxury brand except Lexus, according to TrueCar and Autodata.

But while those strengths would appeal to a mass-market brand, they do not solve Acura's image problem, which is the lack of a defined prestige image.

The best Poponi can muster is that Acura is the brand "for people not comfortable wearing BMW or Mercedes."

"Nobody really needs a luxury car," she said in an interview at the introduction of the TSX Sport Wagon. "It's a more emotional purchase. But there are more rational buyers who want all the accoutrements of luxury but who want stealth wealth."

At the same time, Poponi said, marketing to "anti-snobs" probably isn't the best formula. Instead, Acura is aiming its "smart luxury" message squarely at Gen Y, the generation struggling with diminished earning power and a mountain of college loan debt.

"Attainability is still cool to them, and they like nice things," Poponi said. "But they're happy with a Coach bag; they don't need Louis Vuitton."

At Acura's recent national dealer meeting in Denver, executives unveiled an attitude closer to the brand's original slogan in the 1980s: "precision-crafted performance."

"Lexus may hit the mark on luxury on the prestige side," said dealer Doug Fox, president of Ann Arbor Automotive near Detroit. "But Acura is still moving toward a performance-oriented vehicle that is a great value, with normal maintenance and ownership costs."

That still doesn't gain Acura credence in the luxury-vehicle fight. Acura buyers' 2 most cross-shopped brands are Honda and Toyota, although BMW, Audi, Infiniti and Lexus are close behind, according to Edmunds.com.

Also, Acura's average transaction price of $37,665 is $5,000 less than its nearest luxury competitor, according to TrueCar. Edmunds says the most traded-in vehicles for an Acura -- besides another Acura -- are Honda, Toyota and Nissan.

All this categorizes Acura as a move-up brand from the mass market, but not something aspired to by other luxury customers.

"Acura's identity isn't clear to many luxury buyers," said Jesse Toprak, TrueCar vice president of industry trends and insights. "If I'm spending that kind of money, do I want an Acura, or a BMW or Benz? Acura simply doesn't have the same prestige. Once you hit the $45,000-plus market, many buying decisions are based on image."

Styling errors

Acura's biggest leap toward a more defined luxury image was its aggressive "keen edge" design, launched in mid-2008 with the 2009 TL. The look included a prominent fascia, disparagingly called "the beak" by detractors.

Acura executives defended the styling, seen most prominently on the TL sedan and ZDX crossover. But consumers have had their own ideas.

Unappealing exterior styling was by far the most-cited reason that shoppers walked away from Acura, according to the 2010 J.D. Power Avoidance Study. Nearly half of Acura avoiders cited that reason, far above the industry average and well above most premium brands. The No. 2 reason for not buying an Acura? Interior styling.

"Styling is hurting them," said Kerri Wise, Power's director of research. "It's their biggest hurdle."

That may be a reason that the midcycle change of the TL, arriving in March or April, has had more than a scalpel's worth of rhinoplasty.

Dave Conant, a multiline dealer with a new Acura store in Mission Viejo, Calif., has seen the new, "cleaned-up" version and said, "If it had looked like this in the beginning, we wouldn't have missed a beat."

While consumers have been polarized by the styling of Acura's sedans, the smart packaging of the MDX and RDX crossovers has allowed the brand to ride the wave of consumers returning to light trucks. RDX sales have soared 52% this year, while MDX sales are up 46%.

Acura's overall gain of 24% means it continues to outsell Audi, Infiniti and Lincoln. Last year, Acura sold barely half of its 2005 peak of 209,610 vehicles. But dealers are confident the brand is on its way back toward the old mark.

Yet TrueCar's Toprak said Acura missed a golden opportunity to expand its leasing. While the luxury leaders routinely lease well over half their volume, Acura's proportion is closer to 1/3. Typically, its incentives are focused on dealer cash and stair-step bonuses instead of lease subvention.

With its strong residual values, Acura could have made hay with aggressive lease deals that wouldn't have cost them much, Toprak said.

New products soon

At the Denver dealer meeting, Honda executives promised additions to the product lineup, not just from hybrid powertrains but also in new segments. Dealers were told that 2012 would be a big year for new products, likely including the redesign of the ancient RL flagship.

Jim Smail, president of Smail Auto Group in Greensburg, Pa., said dealers were reassured by Honda Motor Co. CEO Takanobu Ito, who was involved in engineering the original NSX supercar and MDX crossover.

"There are going to be more nameplates over the next couple years, more segments we are going to compete in," Smail said. "There were times when we were starved for product, but there is a commitment from Honda now. The company is going to put money behind Acura."

American Honda's Center said future sedans will be more distinct from one another, admitting that the current TL and RL are too close in size.

"Within 2 or 3 years, it will be quite clear which Acura is which," he said.

Acura probably will return to the compact sedan and hatchback segment currently occupied by the Audi A3, Volvo C30 and BMW 1 series. Once Acura dominated the class with the Integra and RSX but now doesn't compete. That will change, "if the car has the character of the brand," Center said.

One thing an RSX revival won't be is a reprise of the Canadian market Acura CSX, which is scarcely more than a rebadged Honda Civic.

"That is a poster child for how not to do it," Center said. "Acura needs to be more than Honda-plus."

Luxury bargain
Acura's average transaction price through November trails those of other luxury brands.
• BMW: $52,255
• Mercedes-Benz: $49,065
• Cadillac: $48,256
• Audi: $43,831
• Infiniti: $43,796
• Lincoln: $43,533
• Lexus: $42,794
• Acura: $37,665
Source: TrueCar

charliemike

Adding an RSX is not going to increase the avg transaction price at Acura.

That said, Acura lost me after the CL.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Although they lost part of me even before that. I still regret not getting the WRX I wanted back in the day instead of the CL-S.

biker

...not if they all wear the same ugly beak.

Moog-Type-S

and

Oh the cars that were on my list when I purchased the CL-S...

I'd take any of them over the CL-S.

Legend2TL

TSX69 always posts really good informative articles.

dom

Interesting. Although I'm sure it will be based off the Civic platform so how different could it be? We shall see.

Colin

It will certainly be off the next Civic chassis, as for how different? Probably not too drastic since as you noted, what can they really do? Hopefully they can keep the price difference in check if the cars are going to be closely related. Civic and Integra were very similar but there was enough 'distance' to satisfy the marketplace. If this sub-TSX car is built in North America I think there is a lot of hope that they can content the car well and keep the price in reason.

HondaOnWORKS

I just wanna point out that everyone seems to complain about Acura not having RWD, but no one really complains about Audi not having RWD.

In terms, I think Acura and Audi are more similar. Both companies prefer to offer FWD and AWD. I think Acura in the future will start offering more AWD cars. (Might start off as an option anyways)

Oh, I also agree with what Colin has said in his posts. Honda knows what they are doing, so I think we should all just sit back and watch.

Edward'TLS

Acura needs RWD because it doesn't have any 350+ horsepowers V6 and because it resists building high power V8/V10/V12 engines. Thus, 2WD is the only way to quicken the cars.

AWD is a power hog, and FWD can't handle more than ~290hp.

So the only solution for more speed with AWD is HIGH engine power, and this is what Acura is seriously lacking, but Audi is good at.

Audi and Acura are virtually in the same boat, being limited by the FWD-only chassis. This is the only similarity between the two auto brands.

But, Audi has a wide selection of turbo-V6, V8, and V10 to choose from, which is more than enough to offset the power-robbing nature inherited by the AWD drive gears. Acura doesn't or won't.

Audi has make available Quattro AWD option for all vehicle lines (even the entry level A3 model) in North America. Acura doesn't.

Audi has created dedicated high performance divisions (S, RS) for most of it's vehicle lines. Acura doesn't.

Audi has the flag-ship R8 for image boosting. Acura no longer has any.

Audi has a much wider vehicle mix, especially coupes like the TT and the A5. Acura has no coupe at all.

Audi is a recognized luxury brand, but with typical European reliability (=poor). Acura is a brand still seeking identity in the auto industry, but with typical Japanese reliability (=top notch).

There is no short cut in life. Without the necessary hardware in store, it's hard to compete or trying to be similar with an established luxury auto brand.

Edward'TLS

Agree.

fsttyms1

This! We dont complain about Audi because they have Engine OPTIONS! That and Better looking cars by far. If Acura gave me a 350+ engine that was an option I might look at them a little bit.

TSX69

Acura Will keep FlagShip Sedan Conservative
May Add High-End Sporty Vehicle to LineUp

The launch of the refreshed Acura RL flagship gave us a chance to drill the company’s executives and PR reps with questions about the car’s successor as well as Acura’s latest plans to bring back something sports-car-like to the lineup. The information firewall was up in full force, so we were left to read between the lines. Following numerous conversations with Acura’s ebullient product chief, Vicki Poponi, and others, this is what we can surmise about the top of Honda’s top line.

The next Acura flagship likely will be called RL, not Legend or anything else terribly evocative, and it most certainly will not have a V-8 (we were told to stop asking). A former chemical engineer, Poponi is a numbers person, and she cites surveys that Acura believes disprove any notion that cylinder count is of real importance to luxury customers. “The market is moving to us,” the Acura folks said, citing increasing demand for higher fuel economy as well as the economic downturn prompting luxury customers to rein in their extravagant ways. We also kept hearing statements such as “Honda is a very conservative company,” and “the RL customer is a conservative customer.”

These hints suggest that the next RL will build upon the improvements made for 2011 in the areas of quietness, safety, and material quality, although the car will probably not feature terribly radical styling, nor will it grow all that much. So it won’t be a Lexus LS fighter but more like an Infiniti M fighter. Given that, we would also be very surprised if the next-gen car doesn’t add 25 to 50 horses so it can at least match the M37’s base output of 330 hp. When will we see the next-gen RL? With the current model’s age—and abysmal sales of about 3000 per year—it can’t come soon enough. Nods and nudges from Acura folks suggest that it will arrive very soon, perhaps within the next 12 to 18 months. We think the RL had better be at least a bit flashy if Acura hopes to get newfound attention from consumers in the brutally competitive $45K–$70K luxury-car segment. In this case, erring on the side of conservative may be an error indeed.

Details were far sketchier regarding additional members of the Acura lineup. We were told that Acura will soon introduce something unconventional sometime around the launch of the new flagship sedan. Will it be sporty? Probably. Will it be called NSX? Who knows. Will it be the front-engine supercar we saw lapping the Nürburgring a couple of years ago? No. Although that car was all but finished, according to Acura insiders, it was cancelled—not even shelved—due to Honda’s concerns that it might be crass to offer a $150K–$175K sports car in the face of worldwide economic hardship. However, much of the technology developed for that car will appear in the new car. Whatever it’s called.

biker

That might be, but the RL customer also doesn't like the ugly beak.

dom

CSX is built in Ontario alongside Civic's. Probably a good bet production stays there.

dallison

I would like to see a nice v6 coupe. Also, the tsx, tl and rl all pretty much look the same. They most def need to look different than each other.

smarty666

I agreed with pretty much all you said it except for this statement. Maybe they are recognized in Europe but I maintain that Audi is still not a recognized luxury brand here in the States just like Acura. Both do not have the brand image and reputation that BMW, MB, and Lexus do.

I am talking about the general public and people not interested at all about cars. All of us on here know what Audi is but the vast majority do not. Infiniti has the same problem as Audi. I know many people who when I said those two names to did not even know they were luxury makes.

speedemon90

dunno if this was already posted, but here it is anyway

http://blog.caranddriver.com/acura-w...cle-to-lineup/


Wonder if this shows a change in direction doubt it though.

KavexTrax

oy vey...

Hyundai Genesis and Equus are also conservatively COMING to you and eating on your dinner plate with an offering of a V6 & V8! The only thing that's keeping Hyundai from completely stealing your dinner is the fact that their showroom/dealership has not been separated into a distinct brand from Hyundai. When the Koreans sort that brand-image-appeal out, you will know where and when your MARKET left you in numbers chief.

Better not rest on your laurels product chief, the competition is in your door.

Edward'TLS

What's the point of keeping the $47K "Smart luxury" RL, when the $37K "Smart luxury" TL can do the same job ?

Unless there is a huge boost in hp and big leap in technology advancement in the upcoming RL in contrast to the TL model family, the new flagship car will flop just like the current flagship car.

Might as well kiss the RL model line goodbye and work on the TL model as the new Acura flagship car.

"Smart luxury" cars just don't sell at >$50K, but real luxury cars do.

neuronbob

"The market is coming to us."



Um, hello, Acura, Genesis is knocking on your back door! Hell, so is Cadillac!

phile

^ if Cadillac gets the new DTS/STS right like they did with the new CTS, I think Cadillac will officially zoom past Acura as a luxury brand. They've pretty much established a brand portfolio comparable to the big names like MB & BMW.

pttl

^


Can't wait to see the ATS when it arrives.

Belzebutt

Will it be a hybrid? Probably.

biker

^ I hope not.

Right, cause offering a $75K car now won't be?

Colin

Well, since they've already said that the current models are too close in size and that would be fixed in the next generation, I assume that this would address part of the problem.

I think the next RL will move forward on the technology front, probably offering the next generation dual IMA, maybe a DSG, and if we're lucky, a new V-6. Would that be enough for it not to flop? I couldn't pass judgment since a lot will depend on execution, but I think the pieces will be there.

I don't think the RL has to go away, but I do think it needs to sell in the 15,000K range per year. The TL is expected to sell around 50-70,000 per year so it is unrealistic to expect that nameplate to be the 'top of the line' (nobody's does)

Colin

I agree, but if I recall, the RSX was made in Japan so they could still pull a switch-a-roo. Hopefully not, I don't see how they can have a competitive edge in the content/price wars if they build it in Japan. Margins are too slim in the 'sub-30ish' price range.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

If this doesnt speak to the designers nothing will.

Colin

If it's going to be FWD, I never want to see another V-6 coupe. NEVER!

YEH

Well, some of it is true, considering Lexus' "progressive luxury" strategy for expansion.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...312209967/1292

For what it's worth, here's what 1 poster (Bajuke) on LLN, who claims to have worked for HMC, stated about Honda's previous plans.

Moog-Type-S

:ghey:

PG2G

Is it really true that a lot of people have a problem with Acura's interior design? I always thought it was one of the high points.

F23A4

Sort of line with Colin's post, the integration of IMA (along with a totally restyle 5G) would address the power deficit vs the base M.....though along with SH-AWD it could make for a heavy beast.

Honda's concern about the crassness of a $150k-175k sports car is silly, particularly with respect to an upscale market in which Acura is supposed to be competitor. If Honda is so concerned about upsetting the sensibilities of those struggling in this economy then cancel the whole Acura lineup and toss in a SH-AWD equipped range topper Honda Accord and be done with it. I mean the 2G NSX was pretty much completed.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I think you may be confusing quality with design. Quality wise, its great. But the buttons turn people off.

phile

I don't think the buttons are bad at all on Hondas/Acuras. I have no idea why these journalists keep bringing it up, the buttons aren't even that plentiful, and they're so intuitive you hardly need a manual.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I just did a quick count and found about 40 buttons on the TL's dash.

Did the same with the 2010 E Class and got almost 50 buttons.