charliemike

To spend all that money creating recognition for the TSX name and then to just piss it away for the RSX name? Makes no sense.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

Honda went all in on Hybrid and missed the direct inject / small turbo wave of production being done by BMW, Hyundai/KIA, GM, and heavily by Ford.

If I, the almost 20 year Honda/Acura customer, ruled the world.

1. ZDX. Push the remaining ones off a cliff. A big cliff. A really big cliff. Maybe NASA would buy them for space shuttle chalk blocks? Flush the toilet on this ugly turd.

2. TSX. Is it an Accord or isn't it? Do we need a TSX, an Accord, a TL, and an RL in all relatively the same size segment? No. TSX and Accord become one car and go under the Honda badge. Offer options, maybe even the 3.5 or whatever replaces it with AWD under the Honda banner and make it class leading at Honda price. Even put a godawful hatchback bubble ass on it to satisfy the 15 people that bought crosstours or ZDXs.

3. RSX. Why? Is the fact that the kiddies all buy Scions and Hyundai/Kias now not an indicator that cheap and featured is what sells? Anyone wanting the "entry" sport tuner model is buying a stock WRX that runs flat 13 second quarter miles, and has an industry leading AWD system with bulletproof engine. We have the Fit, the Civic and the Insight. The Insight (see also, drive off cliff and walk away). The Fit - awesome small car, total Honda formula. Make it smaller, make it lighter, and get the thing to the 45mpg mark without some BS hybrid system bogging down the curb weight. Can't be done? They were doing it in 88. Figure it out. The Civic: Get an identity and go on a diet. It's bigger than accords were 20 years ago. We don't need another mid-size car Honda...you've got too many already.

4. TL. Oh flagship car, where will thou sail? Wait...that's the RL right? But if the RL is the flagship, why do the TLs outsell it 50-1....errr...hmmmm....EXACTLY. Is the TL the Acura mainstay mid-size, or is it the new Boss? We'll get to the RL later. AWD kicks ass. SH-AWD beyond kicks ass. This is THE car for a balls-out AWD tourer. Does it need a V8? Probably not. Does it need boost/direct injection/inline 6/displacement/more power. Yes - it needs that option. It needs to be a 12.5 - 13 second capable car with deafeningly quiet interior, an outstanding 6 or 7 speed dual friction gearbox, and enough technology to hack the pentagon while driving the nurburgring. Keep it between 35 and 50k with all the options, and make it the definitive midsize. Keep the weight under 4000lbs. Go all in on this one.

5. If the RL stays and goes head to head with Lexus LS, Infiniti M, and a BMW 7, then it better grow about 450 hp worth of balls, figure out how to get the power to the other wheels, and deliver bling on an un-precedented level in Acura trim. I want the damn iphone to be able to pull this thing up from my parking spot, flip off the valet, open the car doors for me, and leave black streaks across the entryway of whatever fancy eatery it's pulling away from, with a 3 piece chamber orchestra in the backseat, never missing a note. It's pretty nondescript right now - and while being a very clean, well engineered car; it just doesn't wow anymore, if it ever did in current trim.

6. RDX Hey they still make those? Yeah; do we need a turbo CRV with leather? I dunno. Offer the MDX with a base level trim and the turbo motor and be done with it.

7. MDX. They seem to keep getting this one right. Maybe it's time to put on the big boy pants and get a v8 option in a little beefier form. If so - then maybe the RDX sticks around and grows a little to get V6 guts. Whatever formulat they've been using here - it's working. Stay on target.

8. NSX/S2000 successor. O Romeo, O Romeo, where for art thou? Just not in the cards right now I think. Can they build a 90k car to smoke Godzilla? Sure! Will they? Probably not. It will be light, nimble, well designed, and underpowered compared to the competition. It's just the Honda way _ IF they build it at all. Is there a right answer here? I would love to say yes as a guy that would buy one, but this is niche market stuff. Get back to your bread and butter and keep developing new powerplants. With Honda out of F1 racing, don't expect any ingenious sports car developments on the horizon.

dom

Interesting. Another mention of a 2.5L.

neuronbob

This is a dead horse. The lack of V8 is one reason I bought a Cadi.

It's too bad I never got to meet my dream RL: 400+ hp torque-monster V8 with SH-AWD.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

Actually, back in 05, Mugen did an RL "MAX" concept. It was gorgeous. It died.









The Study Concept Model "LM (LEGEND MAX)"
This is a "combination of racing technology and tuning philosophy." A Mugen Le Mans V8 engine fitted to a further evolved Mugen Legend M1 equipment package.

Specifications and Equipment

Engine

Engine name: Mugen MF408S
Engine type: V8 Naturally Aspirated
Displacement: 4.0Liters
Horsepower: over 500ps
Valvetrain: 32 valves, DOHC
Dimensions

Overall Length: 4980mm
Overall Width: 1905mm
Wheelbase: 2800mm
Wheels and Tires

Wheel: 18" Alloy (18x9.5JJ)- they look like Mugen NR wheels with a center cap and in a new color
Tire: 275/35R18
Brakes

Rotor: 5 slit
Pad: Type Competition
Hose: Micro Mesh Brake Lines
Aerodynamics

Exterior: "Increased Advance Body"
Interior

Seat: bucket type (front)- not the currently available Mugen bucket seats, these have position adjustments
Color

Exterior: Firecracker Red
Interior: Black and Blue
Mugen MF408S engine
Debuting in the 2002 ALMS (American Le Mans Series), this 4 liter V8 engine has seen action every year since then. In 2004, it was used in the JGTC Series by the VEMAC RD408R GT500 class racing machine.

Specs for the MF408S in the VEMAC RD408R

Layout: 90 degree V8 Naturally Aspirated
Displacement: 4000cc
Horsepower: 590hp / 9500rpm
torque: 383lb/ft / 7500rpm
Restrictor: 33.4mm x2 or 46.8mm x1
Clutch: Carbon 4 plate
length: 559mm
width: 720mm
height: 577mm
weight: 131kg
The photos below show the Legend Max and one photo of some sort of award (sorry, didn't bother to see what award it was) winning Xanthic Prelude, which has their new Tilt Forward hood and an ALL SILVER CARBON (SSG) BODY. The silver Legend is the Legend Modulo Concept, which is basically the RL A-Spec concept with Honda emblems instead of Acura emblems, and it has clear taillight lenses which the A-Spec does not have.
Another car worth looking at, although I didn't get a photo of, is the Doov Legend designed with the BAR Honda 006 F1 car theme, featuring dry carbon aerodynamic parts and grille, on a pearl white body and 18" BBS 360 Challenge-style wheels, which are apparently available through Honda dealers in Japan now as a dealer option for the minivans, complete with the correct 55mm offset. Not mentioned anywhere in the Mugen booth are that the Mugen Legend Max is FR, and the transmission is manual. But you can see the shift lever in the (very poorly shot) photo of the interior. Headlamps and taillamps are from the US spec Acura RL, if you look carefully, you will see the orange lenses in the front and the reflective side markers lit up in the sides of the taillamps.

ttribe

Yeah, I realize it's a dead horse. One can wish, for the sake of the brand, that someone with decision making power would figure this out.

Like your move to the CTS, the lack of hope for progress in this area is what led me to my M5. No good high performance alternatives in the Acura brand.

Edward'TLS

Advantages of RWD (or even FWD) over AWD (not just SH-AWD), provided with the same output engine :

- no loss of hp to extra AWD gearings (= more usable hp for RWD).
- cheap in cost (a much lower MSRP for a RWD over an AWD).
- simple in maintenance and less moving parts will go wrong.
- lighter in curb weight (= faster acceleration times).
- better fuel economy (due to no parasitic power loss and lighter curb weight).

The only catch for FWD is that it can't take >290hp without adversely affecting handling characteristics. However, RWD can take whatever power you can dump to it, and can still maintain excellent handling capability.

TSX69

We got close to a v8 engine a while ago but I am pretty sure that there is no chance now. Even other brands are downsizing their v8s to v6s (some turboed or hybridized). The new GS is apparently going to be v8less as well (@ least @ 1st).

There is probably a better shot @ Acura finally bringing a RWD other than the NSX.

jasonwdp10

Lexus killed the V8 GS by giving it a neutered version of the LS engine. Why couldn't they just match 380hp instead of purposely downgrading it?

I used to browse the lexus forums and there was a huge uproar when that happened. Many buyers that were holding out for a 380hp GS, not a 342hp gs. I have a feeling the other luxury brands benefited from that stupid decision that probably resulted in a small exodus of lexus owners.

Edward'TLS

Lexus will still be OK even v8-less. Lexus has a 3.5L-hybrid-V6 powerplant that is almost as potent as it's 4.6L-V8.

But with Acura also v8-less, I just wish that Acura can develop some more powerful V6 engines too.

krio

I don't think it's the lack of hope that drove you to a car like the M5 , or Neuronbob to the CTS-V... simply the fact that both are 2 hell's of cars!
and nor Acura, or Lexus, or Infiniti can offer smth similar in terms of performance and appeal..

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

At least Lexus tried, and Nissan probably wouldn't gain anything by putting the GTR in Infiniti trim, though traditionally, they did offer the skyline as a sedan as well.

F23A4

...still do.

phee

iTrader: (5)

G37=skyline

oonowindoo

1. What FWD BMW is RSX going to compete against? the one that doesnt exist?
2. So honda is going backwards with RDX? from 240hp turbo to a 2.5L?
3. MDX is getting less HP and torque?
4. NSX? from what Honda has been doing, it will be a 3.5L J series RWD Hybrid!!!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

1.) FWD Bimmers at this moment would be the Mini Cooper. I also heard rumours that BMW is working on FWD models.

2.) Assuming the above rumour is true (240hp 2.3L Turbo engine being dropped), the 2.5L I4 NA engine should be able to make 210hp-220hp/180lbft no problem (considering the current K24 makes over 200hp). That would be decent for a base model. As for the hybrid four, if Honda were to implement IMA, I'd imagine that will be good enough for another 20hp and much more usable torque without any lag. On the other hand, may be Honda will put in the new hybrid system and that will provide way more power and torque than the IMA.

3.) Again, he's talking about the base model making 270hp. And there will be a hybrid model on top of that. Personally, I don't the "new" 3.5L V6 will make 270hp. The current J35 in the Accord/TL is already making more than that. A new V6 (ie, J series replacement) with a displacement of 3.5L should be making 300+hp.

4.) Hybrid NSX. I think that would suit the NSX nameplate perfectly. After all, NSX stands for "New Sport eXperimental." What's so "new" if they just make another lightweight MR sports car?

Edward'TLS

With Honda's expertise in engine building, my guess is that the new generation of V6 engines won't go as big as a 3.5L at all.

Possibly with DOHC, DI, i-VTEC, (and perhaps supercharging), the new gen. 2.8L-V6 would eventually have 290-310hp, the new gen. 3L-V6 would eventually have 310-330hp, and the new gen. 3.2L-V6 would eventually have 330-350hp.

As such, there is no need for engine displacements as big as 3.5L nor 3.7L. In particular, all other auto makers are now scrambling to shrink down their engine sizes (but not hp) in order to pass the ever-tightening CAFE requirement.

biker

^ engines developed today will be the mainline engines when the CAFE numbers shoot up for MY16.

TSX69

80% of BMW 1 Series Owners Think it is FWD

Recently BMW announced that they have plans to start producing front-wheel drive BMW’s. To further support BMW’s claim and reasoning to make front-wheel drive vehicles, CEO Norbert Reithofer revealed that 80% of BMW 1-Series drivers believed that they were driving a front-wheel drive car. If you are a car nut then you already know that the BMW 1-Series is in fact a rear wheel drive vehicle.

BMW’s only front-wheel drive platform is currently used in MINI vehicles. BMW has decided that they will build a front-wheel drive platform for an entry-level BMW to compete directly against the Audi A1 and plan to sell 1 million front-wheel drive BMW’s by year 2015.

The results of the 1-Series survey were “quite a surprise” said Reithofer. BMW obviously sees this as good news in their endeavor to produce front-wheel drive vehicles for the 1st time ever possibly going against the brand’s devotion in making rear-wheel drive performance focused vehicles. The new front-wheel drive architecture will be shared in MINI vehicles building up to a combined 20 model variants for both BMW and MINI.

Costco

^repost?

I doubt 80% of 1-Series owners thought their car was FWD. If anything, they probably had no idea what it was. He's just reaching to find justification for it.

TSX69

That article was from last year - reposted in response to the questions about BMW & FWD ...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I agree. However, my point is that the current J35 is already making 270hp. A new engine with the same displacement should be making quite a bit more.

Hopefully the new gen will come up soon...

Colin

Someone DM'd me and I thought I'd add my thoughts to this post:

Yeah, a few things seem strange with the article that make me question some aspects.

1) The sub-TSX is due in spring 2012 not 2013. Probably just a typo.

2) TSX: I've not heard one peep about the TSX nameplate going away, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't be transferred to a different chassis (but which one cause there are only two).

3) RDX: The V-6 has been the most persistent rumor for this for a while. HOWEVER, the new Civic Hybrid 23 hp/70+ lb ft torque IMA motor could couple with a 4 cylinder and make roughly the same power as the current powerplant. I'd say this could/should be on the table.

4) RL. The current RL isn't a 'stand alone' architecture so I'm not sure where Autonews is getting that from. The RL is expensive because it's made in Japan, uses a lot of aluminum in the chassis+ body panels+suspension and a CF driveshaft.

Currently, Acura is not interested in talking more than 1-2 products in advance. This means that sub-TSX and RDX are probably the only two that are 'cast in stone' at this point.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, for the RDX, I'd imagine a 2.5L engine that makes 215hp/180lbft of torque can be coupled with the IMA with a stronger motor that makes may be 35hp/100lbft of torque. Together the total output could be 240hp/ 230lbft (I know, 215hp +35hp = 250hp but you don't really just add hp together like that for a hybrid).

I think the next RDX will get some weight reduction, just like the Odyssey and Civic. Together with a 6AT, the new RDX should be slightly faster than before (the current RDX is already quite fast in its class) while obtaining very good fuel efficiency.

Possible Specs:
2.5L I4 with IMA
240hp@6000rpm
240lbft@1000rpm-3500rpm (thanks to the motor)
Weight: 3850lb for SH-AWD model (100lb less than current RDX AWD)
0-60: 5.8s (0.4s faster)
1/4 mile: 14.5@98mph (0.3s and 3mph faster)
EPA for AWD model: 28/27mpg(17/22/19 for current model)

DeMAN

Acura has been seeing some bad numbers (slow selling cars) out of there hold line up. They have gotten out where they are overpriced. Some may blame the earthquake, but numbers has been falling before the quake as the prices goes up on these cars. May be time for honda to rethink the hold Acura lineup.

It hurts when the Hp and options that used to be found on car lines in the mid luxury group have worked there way down the food chain. The lower food chain is offering the "must have equipment" making more hp, getting better mpg's, and flat kicking butt on styling. These have all led to sales uptrend. I know Acura is not a high volume seller, but 5k per month from each model should be easy to hit and 7.5k-10k for the TSX. Buick is sliding right in where Acura used to be.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Looking at the sales results before the quake, the numbers were quite solid.

I don't think I have ever seen the TSX at over 5000/month.

In 2004, Acura sold 30000 TSX's, or about 2500 a month.

biker

MY 06 was Acura's best year for the TSX at around 36K. 10K/mo is above 3 series level of sales - that's not going to happen. In a very good month the TL used to have 5K sales. If they fix the styling and the economy returns it might sell again at those levels. The MDX can also sell at those levels. Other than that, Acura has nothing even approaching that kind of volume.

fsttyms1

RDX will get a V6

krio

Motorauthority

Apart from Lexus, Japanese automotive luxury brands still pale in comparison to their German rivals in terms of the number of models they produce and the prices they can command.

Overall image in the marketplace and status on the street have likewise proven difficult to develop.

That's why Acura is making a hard push specifically to boost its image, but in its own unique way.

While many automakers use big powerful models as attention grabbers, Acura sees fuel economy as a way to differentiate itself in what is becoming a very competitive market.

Though this may come as just more frustration for dealers, who have to deal with a limited, lackluster and aging lineup, Acura is adamant that it won’t offer big rear-drive V-8 vehicles and will instead start selling more hybrid models.

Speaking previously on the matter, Acura vice president Jeff Conrad said the brand was considering adding a smaller car positioned below the TSX to take on the likes of the BMW 1-Series, Audi A3 and Lexus CT 200h.

According to the latest reports, this new model will revive the RSX badge and will come in both sedan and coupe bodystyles. This new-generation RSX will be based on the 2012 Honda Civic’s front-wheel drive platform and will arrive on the market in the spring of 2013.

It will feature a 210 horsepower version of the Civic Si’s 2.4-liter four-cylinder engine and may eventually be offered as a convertible.

Meanwhile, the TL mid-size sedan and MDX crossover are expected to get new hybrid options for their next-generation. Acura’s hybrid will be based on a Honda design and pair a V-6 with an electric motor for improved fuel economy.

Interestingly, the TSX may be phased out after the current model reaches the end of its product cycle, with the next-generation TL due in late 2013 expected to be downsized to fill the gap and better complement the only slightly bigger RL. The redesigned MDX is due in the fall of 2012.

biker

^ that's just a bunch of circular reporting that started with some potentially bogus info. Convertible RSX, really?

oonowindoo

I know what is new. a V8 TT NSX. that sounds Newer than a Hybrid to me...

Colin

It seems like this same story is circulating over and over again. Does anybody actually fact check this? The new car is coming in the spring of 2012 but will probably called a 2013.

MDX before the RDX? First I've heard of this. Two things: 1st) 1G MDX went 6 years. 2nd) RDX debuted before the current MDX. Draw your own conclusions.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

1.) lol...well...may be he WAS talking about the upcoming BMW FWD cars. Here's an article on that:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmw-defe...offerings.html

2.) Ok, you take the 2.3L turbo that gets 17/22mpg...I will take the hybrid that will probably get 30/28mpg

3.) Huh? If they are designing a new 3.5L, then I'd imagine it will be more than 270hp, since the current J35 is already making more than that. For comparison, the 1st gen RL had a C35 that was making 210hp. The 2nd gen RL however got a J35 that made 300hp. That's 90hp difference despite having the same displacement. Not saying the new V6 will again make that big leap, but I'd imagine it will get more than just 10hp. If the difference is only 10hp, then the mpg would probably go way up.

jnc2000

If the new RL gets the "new" hybrid system.. I forsee numbers in the 360/350 range

Edward'TLS

Agree. With the upcoming new V6 family, there may only be a moderate boost in hp in it's initial debut. But eventually, a big jump in hp is possible after various stages of further tweaking and tuning over the years.

Just witness the 90hp jump for the J35, the time frame took approx. half of the J-series V6's life cycle in order to materialize.

biker

^ Without lots of trickery it's difficult to get an engine past 100HP/l in a daily driver luxury car. So HP wise, no 3.5l engine will go beyond 350HP. Mileage gains will also be minimal as the technology to extract more and more from gas engines is starting to reach the point of diminishing returns. This is why I foresee some drastic changes if the 2025 EPA mileage rules are really to be achieved. Heck, even the more modest 2016 rules are bringing about big changes (like eveyone dumping V8s).

fsttyms1

Fixed

phile

Rick_TL-S

Friggin' Duke Nukem of the car world. I'll probably be in my 30's by the time they actually get around to reviving this car.

jasonwdp10

Now on LLN:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/acuras-f...s-the-web.html

"Honda’s product freshening will begin with a new version of the RDX crossover in mid-2012. The RDX will continue to offer front- and all-wheel drive, but Honda will replace its turbocharged four-banger with a naturally-aspirated 2.5L four-cylinder. A hybrid option will also be available but no V6 is planned.

A new MDX will follow closely behind the RDX, launching in the fall of 2012. The MDX will retain its more restrained styling, but the CUV’s 300 horsepower 3.7L engine is expected to be replaced by a 270 horsepower 3.5L V6. A hybrid option will also join the MDX lineup.

A new version of Acura’s RL flagship will bow in late 2012 as a 2013 model. Although there has been much talk about canning the slow-selling RL altogether – the Saab 9-5 is outselling the RL by a wide margin this year – Acura will be keeping its flagship as a matter of pride. We know that rear-drive and V8-power aren’t in the RL’s future, but no word on exact changes to the range-topper.

In early 2013 Acura will revive its RSX nameplate as an entry-level sedan. The RSX is intended to compete with vehicles like the Lexus CT 200h and BMW’s forthcoming front-wheel drive models and will ride on the Honda Civic’s architecture. Despite those rather lowly roots for a luxury car, Acura has learned its lesson from the Canadian-market CSX and will differentiate the two models by size and looks.

Acura is planning a coupe version of the RSX, but that model isn’t expected to arrive until the sedan’s mid-cycle refresh in 2015. Acura dealers have also asked for a convertible hardtop version of the car.

Given the planned launch of the new RSX in 2013, Acura could pull the plug on the TSX at the end of its lifecycle in 2013. Acura is concerned that there won’t be a big enough size difference between the RSX, TSX and TL.

Acura also has sizing issues on the upper-end of the scale as the TL is essentially the same size as the “larger” RL. In order to better separate the two,

Acura will shrink the Accord-based TL when it is launched in late 2013. Acura will also use the 2013 updated to swap out the car’s 3.7L V6 for a new 3.5L V6. The new mill will feature fuel saving technology like cylinder deactivation and automatic stop/start, and a hybrid option will also be available.

The Acura NSX was thought the be left for dead, but Honda Motor President Takanobu Ito says a new version of the high-end sports car is still in the works. However, the next NSX is still a ways off with a market launch not expected until at least 2014."

They claim that the sub-TSX will be a revived RSX?