fiatlux

While this is a bit besides the point, I’d take TH’s lap times with a grain of salt since Thomas doesn’t exactly have racing credentials. If you look at the VIR times from C&D, the GT PP2 did it in 2:53.8 while the A91 Supra did it in 2:59.3.

SebringSilver

Since there are so many Audi enthusiasts here, I thought I’d share:

BEAR-AvHistory

Thomas does not need racing credentials as he is not a pro driver. A very good amature driver probably better than 99% here. Makes him closer to what a Supra buyer might be.

The PP2 which I believe is no longer in production is more of a middle track day car like the Z06 is to the Base & ZR1 corvettes. What is left is the Mach 1 with a performance package.

VIR with long straights 3000ft & 4000ft & elevation changes play to big 460 horsepower. TH runs a short technical course thats features handling. That aside the Supra is street oriented & the Mustang PP2 is major track oriented package that comes stock with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s, 305/30/ZR-19 all around, making it a semi-GT-350. What it does not have like the GT350, the Voodoo 5.2DOHC engine, differential & transmission-oil coolers to allow for extended track time. One test it was 5 laps & take a break to to cool them.

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s, 305/30/ZR-19 & at VIR are a big advantage VS the Supra's summer tires Michelin Pilot Super Sport, F: 255/35ZR-19 / R:275/35ZR-19. With Cup 2 tires the Supra would tighten up the lap time.

C&D Road Test best # in bold.

C/D Mustang GT PPL2
TEST RESULTS
Rollout, 1 ft: 0.4 sec
60 mph: 4.1 sec
100 mph: 9.4 sec
130 mph: 16.3 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 5.0 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 9.8 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 9.2 sec
¼-mile: 12.5 sec @ 114 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 154 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 139 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 281 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.13 g

C/D Supra
TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 3.8 sec
100 mph: 8.8 sec
130 mph: 15.2 sec
150 mph: 21.9 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.4 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.7 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.7 sec
1/4 mile: 12.1 sec @ 117 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 160 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 152 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 304 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.02 g

That leaves the Mach 1 with the sports package, including Cup 2 tires, as the top end of the non supercharged cars with 480bhp

C/D Mach 1
TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 4.3 sec
100 mph: 9.9 sec
1/4-Mile: 12.6 sec @ 115 mph
130 mph: 17.1 sec
150 mph: 24.4 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 4.9 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 9.6 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 9.2 sec
Top Speed (mfr's claim): 168 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 141 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 286 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad: 1.05 g

fiatlux

OK but you’re the one that brought up the PP2…

Did I russle your jimmies by “calling out” the Supra (and therefore your beloved Z4) for having less power and being more expensive than the Mustang, thus making it “mediocre” based on Kense’s logic? Perhaps you missed the point where this is a facetious conclusion meant to show how ridiculous his argument is that anything less than 400hp for the Integra would make it “mediocre”.

Kense

Perhaps you should stop getting so emotional over Acura. Show me where I said it would be mediocre if it doesn’t have 400 HP. I’ll wait for you to quote my words saying that. I said Acura should try to make the integra a 400hp car to compete with the 400z and Supra. Since they’ve failed with the Type S. Why not? What else do they have that’s performance oriented now that the NSX is axed? You’re on here acting like the spokesman for Acura and getting all pompous and being an ass . You just have opinions like anybody else.

BEAR-AvHistory

Nope, no problem with Mustangs My brother in law has a few & they are very nice to ride. Oh wait you mean the cars. It's just too bad that they leave a lot of their horsepower up in smoke. Glad the smoke screen is behind me.

Like the engine so much have a Coyote in the little red car although its closer to the GT-350 without the flat plane crank than a regular GT. One of the few US engines that look good compared to what's available in Germany.

Personally never paid much attention to horsepower vs dollars spent on a car. Has no meaning outside of add copy. Could have bought a 760BHP Mustang GT-500 but I did not, instead got the Z4 @ 382BHP. Passed that on to my daughter told her she could have gotten 760BHP instead of 503BHP for less money. She looked at me like it was time for me to hit the padded cell.

vhtran

The link does not work. What are we looking at here?

YEH

Thomas is a Time Attack driver - so, a professional in terms of trying to set track times.

vhtran

F23A4

#Buslengths

Still waiting for that Accord 2.0T runoff to seal the fate of the Type S.

Kense

The Type S isn’t about speed. Nobody cares about speed with the Type S. Not sure why all the drag races.

Tony Pac

Let's see how many Stinger vs. G70 vs. TLX are sold this month and YTD numbers will tell us the story! These drag races and slow a friction of seconds are only for 1% of buyers. This was discussed over and over and over again. At this point, if TLX is too slow for you, move on. It's what it's. Acura won't change anything in the next 2 years (at least). But I am curious to see the sales numbers of these cars in the next 2 years!

vhtran

It's the sales number's race now. hahahaha

Tony Pac

Absolutely! At the end of the day sales number decide if a vehicle stays or gets chopped. I am sure we all know that. At this point, we know that the TLX is slower, but being slower make a difference in sales numbers, that's important to know as well. It's not always about 4.5 vs 4.8 seconds. Why is Kia planning to chop the Stinger? If Stinger is so amazing and the sales numbers are a huge success. Do you really think Kia would even think of chopping it? I think it's great to discuss 4.5 vs. 4.8 for fun and those 1% that cares, but we tend to forget the financials which are far more important than 4.5 vs 4.8 seconds. Alpha Romeo produces some of the best cars right now. If you drive the Giulia, it will blows all these cars away but sadly the car is struggling and we aren't even sure if the brand will stay in NA another 5 years or not.

F23A4

I’m a TLX guy but agreed, that’s just deflecting (and not even a volume car). On the flip side, the TLX generally only has laurels-based brand appeal and probably handling over the Genesis/Kia. Other than that, it reminds me of a child trying to participate in an adult discussion: completely not in the conversation.

BEAR-AvHistory

Global view Hyundai/Kia will sell at least 2.7 million more cars than Honda/Acura (2020 it was 2.8 million +). That said this series of posts is about TLX Type-S faces the targeted cars.

Will the TL line will sell more Type-S cars than than the G70 line sell 3.3 cars or the Audi lines S4 cars. TLX Type S is what we are talking about here & what Acura is hyping vs the cars in all the drag races. According to Acura's major tag line "Precision Crafted Performance" the TLX TypeS and stated by Jon the TLX boss the is the lead performance car.

Therefor why should it not be compared on performance to the other cars?

vhtran

If I remember correctly, almost every one of us agreed that the TLX-S is a great car with some minuses, but we called it out because of how Acura advertised the car and compared it with the German. From Acura's event to actual real-life tests then the hardcore fans started to deflect the conversation into something else. If you ask me now, I would say it's a good car and would I get one? Absolutely, if I get a SUPER good deal, just like when I bought all of my cars. I buy cars when I BS around and it goes "Oh schiet, they really want to sell me the car with a ridiculous offer".

leomio2.0

Meanwhile, during the pre-release marketing stage of the car, the internet was inundated with comments such as, "when Honda actually tries making a fast car, the Germans don't stand a chance!" Now, it seems, they've been surpassed by the Koreans.

Still, it's a fine car that's quite livable day-to-day ... but then so is its competition. Personally, being a cheapskate I am, I wouldn't consider it anymore without a ~10% discount. I know before the whole microchip debacle, it was commonplace to use ~9% off sticker as a negotiation starting point for the M340i. Despite that, with the hype falling off a cliff and the tidal wave of negative commentary, who knows if there's going to be much aftermarket support for the Type-S. If that's the case, and the Integra does turn out to be a baby CTR (still not convinced Honda is letting Acura have that motor), I'll take it all day over the TLX-S.

I've seen quite a few 11G Civics driving around and I quite like the lines of it. Plus, it's grown in size quite a bit. Four doors, some variant of the 2.0T and a more street-tuned suspension over track-tuned and I'll be 100% a fanboy of that car ... even tho the actual fanboys want a 2dr coupe, even more track-focused suspension and for it to be faster than the CTR. But, we already know that Honda isn't going to let that happen.

Kense

See what I mean? Nobody cares about how fast the TLX is. It’s all about how much the car sells. Even though nobody here outside of salesmen gets commission on sold Type S’s sales figures are important not speed.

SebringSilver

As long as Acura prevents customers from getting all the features that are available from lesser TLXes on their top of the line Type S, I will never get a Type S. It’s sad what they’ve done to a brand that many of us have been loyal to for so many years (decades in my case).

SebringSilver

ROFL!! Good one.

F23A4

Fixed

BEAR-AvHistory

Tony Pac....Thanks so much for taking this line of thinking onto the debate floor. Think your statement drew a number of very clear responses as to where the two sides in the debate stand.

loki

Right, nobody.......................except Acura who marketed and hyped it as a speed demon for years.

I have yet to see Type S win ANYTHING against any of it's competition. Literally not one. It can't even keep up with A4, let alone S4 or G70.

ESHBG

One of the big issues with the Stinger is the Kia name and its dealer network. I know of many interested buyers who had a tough time even test driving one because of the way the dealers acted towards the vehicle so they went with something else.

But it's exactly about speed, hence why Acura marketed it as such and is charging a premium for the car.

pyrodan007

1) New engine compared with S4 = racing
2) Trunk brace = racing
3) New sport+ mode = racing
4) Laguna Seca, marketing ads = racing
5) Precision crafted performance = racing

So now of course we're talking about sells ... As long as drag races exist in Youtube, the Type-S will be compared fairly against it's competition. And it will always be last. It even lost with value when compared with Stinger/G70. Funny how a 5-10k difference with Germans is a hell yeah win (even with features missing), but when Koreans are equivalently cheaper it becomes "but it's not an Acura because [INSERT]". Brand snobbery reinvented, or shall we say precision crafted snobbery.

leomio2.0

Kense, you have to put /s at the end of your post.

Kense

My bad lol.

Honda430

A win is a win, but unless my perception of the video is skewed the Type S was competitive from 0-60 and lost in the 1/4 mile by 1.5 car lengths from a standing start and 1 car length from a roll. Outside of not winning I can’t see why that would be a reason to call the car slow and a failure. In a real world setting all three of those cars are way fast enough.

Just a couple of quibbles, MSRP for the AWD Stinger is $47,000. A base AWD G70 stickers at $45,000.

Kense

It's skewed because both cars pulled away early. It wasn't close.

Honda430

I don’t know. If you assume a 14 second quarter mile or 94 feet per second a car length of 16 feet equates to .17 seconds with a 1.5 car length equating to .25 seconds. So we got all this damn excitement about less than .3 seconds. Call me naive, but from a perceptional standpoint that’s way negligible. And many of you are advocating that a person make his car buying decision on what in reality only exists on paper and drag race videos. Get out of here.

Tony Pac

I am 100% with you about the advertising. I said it before, Acura overhypes every car. Even the first gen was BS marketing of "thrill" or some shit. I personally hate when Acura shows the TLX as a freaking Supercar. At the end of the day, it's a sedan.

Kense

You're right, speed doesn't matter. Nobody cares, nobody does stop light runs or highway runs. Cars are ONLY to drive to and from work. Personally I don't even know why any company builds performance cars because it doesn't matter. Real world performance doesn't matter, Numbers don't matter, Magazine tests don't matter. Buyers just want a comfortable car that moves. Why did Acura praise the performance of this car when none of the Acura fans even care?

Tony Pac

We can talk about this for another 2 years and it won't end. Of course, speed is important but most, when we say most close to 98% of buyers buy a package in this segment rather than just FAST. The reason, I brought up sales number is if the TYPE S does 0-60 in 4 seconds and still doesn't sell. What will happen to the car?
I am sure Acura prefers to sell more cars to recover their R&D and make profit rather than being fast by a friction of a second. Do you want to blame their marketing for keep saying Fast, fast and fast. Yes. I am with you on that.

But in nutshell, the TLX is a very good car at this price point. the same goes to MDX. I test drove the X5 and MDX. Hands own the X5 is an excellent machine, but price difference is massive. But these German manufacturers are massive and the are known worldwide unlike Acura and they sell big numbers regardless of the price.

Honda430

Thats not what I attempted to demonstrate. My question simply was is .3 or even .5 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile a valid reason to recommend one car over another. Oh don’t mind the cheap switch gear in the Stinger, the plastic fake air vents or the service experience or forget about how small the G70 interior is because you can run a .5 second faster 1/4 mile than the Type S. Yes, makes a lot of sense.

BEAR-AvHistory

Outside of that Mrs. Lincoln what did you think of the play?

It failed to deliver what was presented to the world as a class one performance car by HONDA. So far its failed every head to head performance car test both straight line & road course against cars that are said to be its peers. In a drag race second place is the first loser.

Does not make it a bad car in fact it is a pretty good one. If you need more illumination on why many of us think its a nice car but a turkey as a performance car check the posts below & review some of the vids.

Unfortunately for Acura following right on the heels of Laguna Seca too much shady stuff came out. Track pads on the press cars, the fake S4 drag race followed by Sam's Execution video of the Type-S vs the real S4.

#1113, #1106, #1105, #1104, #1100, #1098, #1096, #1093, #1089

So far the Type-S defense rebuttals have been very weak.

Kense

There are people who actually cancelled their Type S Orders after they started seeing the real numbers. I can Gaurantee that if the Type S was in the 4.4-4.5 second tested range it would sell alot more. In fact they'd steal some German buyers as well based on price. But at the current price and current performance there is ZERO reason to buy this car over it's competetors. It's not THAT much cheaper than the competition.

Honda430

Bear, there you go back at monitoring the hall. My question to you is why are you still here. I’d think your endless knowledge is more suited for a BMW forum.

F23A4

BEAR-AvHistory

Tony Pac its just another car in a crowed field. It had a shot, all the tools are their to be special & to actually be more than just another car that finishes last when driven as advertised. It did not ring the bell so far.

The big bite you are making that I don't see you is its actual market success. Right now inventory of the S is building here in that once was Acura country, so what is the real demand?