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Type S is Overpriced, IS350 is Overpriced and the IS500 will be Overpriced. But at least the IS500 will have decent performance and that Engine is wonderful. It may be worth it for that alone.
At $52K Type S is not overpriced... Given that IS350 is at $55K expect IS500 to start at $60K add some options and you are at $65K. IS500 will still get smoked by the 340M so that should make it a failure based on most comments in the Type S threads especially at that price point.
At $52K Type S is not overpriced... Given that IS350 is at $55K expect IS500 to start at $60K add some options and you are at $65K. IS500 will still get smoked by the 340M so that should make it a failure based on most comments in the Type S threads especially at that price point.
Type S should be in the Audi A4 price range. The Lexus V8 will do 0-60 in 4.2 seconds yes an M340i can beat their F cars and the 500 but that’s a NA Japanese V8 which is rare and one of the best engines ever made. It has a cult following so it won’t be the same talking points about getting beat everybody already knows what that engine can do. The Type S anger comes from over promising and under delivering
Just because it has a loyal Lexus cult following it shouldn't be the same talking points compared to the German competition
??? LMAO. Who is Lexus competing with?
Just because it has a loyal Lexus cult following it shouldn't be the same talking points compared to the German competition
??? LMAO. Who is Lexus competing with?
Who said it shouldn’t be compared? Show me where I said that. I said everybody already knows the performance of that engine and what it can do , it’s over 10 years old and respected by anybody into performance. That engine is a lot closer to the M340 performance wise than that trash Acura put out . It also did it without needing turbos. Guaranteed that IS500 will demolish the Type S. It will be faster than the S4 as well.
Just because it has a loyal Lexus cult following it shouldn't be the same talking points compared to the German competition
??? LMAO. Who is Lexus competing with?
I can’t wait to see how much that incomparable goodness costs.
Who said it shouldn’t be compared? Show me where I said that. I said everybody already knows the performance of that engine and what it can do , it’s over 10 years old and respected by anybody into performance. That engine is a lot closer to the M340 performance wise than that trash Acura put out . It also did it without needing turbos. Guaranteed that IS500 will demolish the Type S. It will be faster than the S4 as well.
Calm down... Calling Type S trash. Triggerd much. Ok, let's see how close it will be to BMW. But if it loses should it also be called trash just like Type S?
500 but that’s a NA Japanese V8 which is rare and one of the best engines ever made. It has a cult following so it won’t be the same talking points about getting beat everybody already knows what that engine can do.
Calm down... Calling Type S trash. Triggerd much. Ok, let's see how close it will be to BMW. But if it loses should it also be called trash just like Type S?
calm down triggered? LOL ok. The type S engine is trash by comparison to the supposed competition. A 10+ year old motor has more HP and Torque and is NA , than something Acura has been developing for 12 years so yes it’s trash. The F cars with the same engine can’t compete with the Germans they were targeting its well known , the specs of this motor have been known for 10 years so I’m not sure the false equivalency you’re trying to bring up like the situation with the IS500 is the same as a brand new motor by Acura.
what does that have to do with the fact the Acura engine took 12 years to develop and has less power than a 10 year old engine? Thanks for quoting my point again. We already know what the power numbers will be just look at the RCF for comparison 4.1-4.2 0-60 vs 5 seconds for the Type S .
what does that have to do with the fact the Acura engine took 12 years to develop and has less power than a 10 year old engine? Thanks for quoting my point again. We already know what the power numbers will be just look at the RCF for comparison 4.1-4.2 0-60 vs 5 seconds for the Type S .
Where is a link that states it took Acura 12 years to develop the engine?
At $52K Type S is not overpriced... Given that IS350 is at $55K expect IS500 to start at $60K add some options and you are at $65K. IS500 will still get smoked by the 340M so that should make it a failure based on most comments in the Type S threads especially at that price point.
I just looked at cars.com. Lots of IS 350 F-Sports listed between $46-48,000
yeah but they're missing the most important option you want for that car, the F Sport Dynamic Handling Package for $4,200.00. I can do without the Mark Levinson, Pano View, Triple Beam headlamps options but the handling package is a must for an enthusiast
yeah but they're missing the most important option you want for that car, the F Sport Dynamic Handling Package for $4,200.00. I can do without the Mark Levinson, Pano View, Triple Beam headlamps options but the handling package is a must for an enthusiast
Yes, I think SG said that it was a must have item. Here I believe is the setup they had.
At $52K Type S is not overpriced... Given that IS350 is at $55K expect IS500 to start at $60K add some options and you are at $65K. IS500 will still get smoked by the 340M so that should make it a failure based on most comments in the Type S threads especially at that price point.
Think the issue is people in general value the Lexus brand much higher than the Acura brand even if the cars are basically identical. The Lexus V8 will go into the same bucket as the Audi S4 & MB C43AMG. They are not M340's but they are desirable premium cars from a Luxury car manufacturer.
Too many people here are selling the branding short when saying what is over priced & what cars really are the TLX, TLX-S competitors. This chart indicates peoples interest in luxury brands by internet activity. You can find all kinds of data that will move the ranking around but buying patterns pretty much follow the listing. People buy what they show interest in. When you look at the chart remember its BRANDS not specific cars.
That said it does indicate which brands people are willing to buy based on their interest in the brand.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 08-14-2021 at 02:08 PM.
Not really, in the US Cadillac did ~130k sales in 2020, Lexus did ~275k, BMW did ~279k
Yet BMW had ~5x more internet social interest over Lexus yet their sales are almost the same.
Market name brand perception is not always equal to actual sales.
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
Think the issue is people in general value the Lexus brand much higher than the Acura brand even if the cars are basically identical. The Lexus V8 will go into the same bucket as the Audi S4 & MB C43AMG. They are not M340's but they are desirable premium cars from a Luxury car manufacturer.
Too many people here are selling the branding short when saying what is over priced & what cars really are the TLX, TLX-S competitors. This chart indicates peoples interest in luxury brands by internet activity. You can find all kinds of data that will move the ranking around but buying patterns pretty much follow the listing. People buy what they show interest in. When you look at the chart remember its BRANDS not specific cars.
That said it does indicate which brands people are willing to buy based on their interest in the brand.
yeah but they're missing the most important option you want for that car, the F Sport Dynamic Handling Package for $4,200.00. I can do without the Mark Levinson, Pano View, Triple Beam headlamps options but the handling package is a must for an enthusiast
I was not aware of the changes Lexus has made in that regard. Fair response.
what does that have to do with the fact the Acura engine took 12 years to develop and has less power than a 10 year old engine? Thanks for quoting my point again. We already know what the power numbers will be just look at the RCF for comparison 4.1-4.2 0-60 vs 5 seconds for the Type S .
Complains about Acura taking a long time to develop a turbo engine and at the same time praising Lexus for using an outdated ancient V8 for over a decade which when brand new was already behind German competition. Don't get me wrong, IS500 will be a great car but it's not going to lead anything in its class and trashing Acura at the same time makes no sense either.
What i'm about to say is just my views on the topic at hand with the development of the 3.0T vs the ancient J-series. A reliable friend of mine (which some might know him) P.Ridden, has a source he obtains information from. He did claim someone from Acura Corporate is "watching" this forum. With that being said, installing a turbo on a J-series isn't new news. The 1st Turbo 3rd gen TL was done by Rodney back in 2008-2009. The design has always been similar to what Acura has done with the 3.0T, excluding the engineering and development to make a "Better" engine with current technology at their disposable. So,as others have shared the same conclusion, that Acura MAY have borrowed the design idea's from enthusiasts here. Mind you, I as well as others are WELL AWARE that the C20AT engine has a similar design as well. So chicken or the egg theory, which one was the borrowed designed, if borrowed.
Here is my issue with Acura. The members here are generally just car guys or enthusiasts (more so back then). Rodney Brown was the type of enthusiast (like others) that wanted to turbo his TL and it had to be done from scratch. This guy didn't work for Acura as an engineer, developing engines ect. He did his homework and got his hands dirty to prove those that doubted him wrong. He did the "impossible".. Where am I getting at with this? Well simple.. If Acura has been developing the J30AT for the last 4 to 5 years, after all the years of engine developments and designs including the 3.5 TT NSX engine, it is without a doubt a disappointment. They had everything at their disposal to make something great and they didn't..
I will keep mentioning this, as my J32 is an ancient engine. Without 6 bolt mains or forged internals. Yet running barely 5 PSI, stock injectors, stock ECU, stock fuel pump, It puts down a healthy 334 wHP (prior to more mods). The J32 can handle at max 9 PSI and I've seen numbers well over 400 wHP. So that being said, It is a huge disappointment that Acura has developed an engine that is well capable of handling more power and yet, it simply doesn't. All the engineering wording and details doesn't mean much when it just barely hit 285 wHP. This is why a lot of people say it's a giant step backwards. Acura is pushing 15 PSI on this engine and it's clear as day that it's being choked out either by restrictive heads (flow) or an undersized turbo or both, which is likely both.
To me, the heart and soul is what powers the vehicle. It's the thrill you get behind the noise the power the feel.
I do hope the integra goes back to it's roots and doesn't disappoint. This is an Acura i'm looking forward for it's success and to bring back what Acura was about.
Complains about Acura taking a long time to develop a turbo engine and at the same time praising Lexus for using an outdated ancient V8 for over a decade which when brand new was already behind German competition. Don't get me wrong, IS500 will be a great car but it's not going to lead anything in its class and trashing Acura at the same time makes no sense either.
What part makes no sense? That “outdated” engine is way more powerful than Acura’s new engine. You don’t find that sad? That is pathetic actually. By the way F cars are track cars and will post pretty good track times. The IS500 is not a track car but a Japanese muscle car which will still be faster than the type s and will be a limited production car which is why the price will be high. Why does the type s price have so much dealer ADM? It doesn’t even perform up to par. It’s not limited to 500 or 1000 like the IS500 will be. I would take that old Lexus V8 over a type S any day of the week and pay more for it too. V8’s are going away. By the way a real ISF will be coming out as well which will actually compete with the German big boy cars like the M3/4 and C63 AMG.
What part makes no sense? That “outdated” engine is way more powerful than Acura’s new engine. You don’t find that sad? That is pathetic actually. By the way F cars are track cars and will post pretty good track times. The IS500 is not a track car but a Japanese muscle car which will still be faster than the type s and will be a limited production car which is why the price will be high. Why does the type s price have so much dealer ADM? It doesn’t even perform up to par. It’s not limited to 500 or 1000 like the IS500 will be. I would take that old Lexus V8 over a type S any day of the week and pay more for it too. V8’s are going away. By the way a real ISF will be coming out as well which will actually compete with the German big boy cars like the M3/4 and C63 AMG.
You seem very passionate about it. Go buy one and post pictures for us.
Here are C&D's numbers for the RC-F with a curb weight of about 4,017lbs ... about what I'd expect the IS500 to weigh. Being the same powertrain, I'd suspect the numbers to be almost identical.
Plus, the added fun of the sound of a V8, and the reliability that comes with it. It is on the same level as the M340i, which we all agree is in a different league than the Type-S. The M340i xDrive has the advantage of AWD, hence why it's quicker to 60 and has a lower ET in the quarter. On the big end, the time to 150MPH is identical and its trap speed is only 1MPH less. 5-60MPH time of the RC-F is actually better than the M340i.
But, as we've said before, it all comes down to pricing. If they start it at just under $60k, the Type-S will be an afterthought, especially with it coming to light how restricted those heads are. Even a turbo swap likely won't be enough to really wring out good power until you let those heads breathe. Great for a daily that you want to zip around town ... not for the likes of me that wants to take my anger issues out on an open freeway.
You seem very passionate about it. Go buy one and post pictures for us.
It’s a discussion forum I realize some of you on here are very sensitive and protective over Acura like the brand is your father but Acura doesn’t give a shit about you. Stop being so emotionally tied to a material depreciating asset. Besides I Have an M340i no need for the Lexus.
What's sorta amusing is GM is using a 2G NSX as a test mule for the expected C8 Hybrid which are being tested now
What's more amusing is in May 2021 the Corvette had an 11,000 car back log with more orders coming in daily. The production capability of less than 200 units a day is more than some full years NSX production. Meanwhile the NSX had $20,000 cash back before you even started to bargain.
Not really, in the US Cadillac did ~130k sales in 2020, Lexus did ~275k, BMW did ~279k
Yet BMW had ~5x more internet social interest over Lexus yet their sales are almost the same.
Market name brand perception is not always equal to actual sales.
Maybe, Maybe not. Would not expect Cadillac an outlier to be high up in the internet & social media usage with their older customer base. That said the top of the mainstream luxury brands list, before you get to the exoctics, pretty much follows the trend set in the displayed interest in the brands. Notice how Acura is not even there. BMW so far has sold 167,994 in the first half of 2021. If the government doesn't kill the economy printing money they should be in the 336.000 unit range for the year.
Here are C&D's numbers for the RC-F with a curb weight of about 4,017lbs ... about what I'd expect the IS500 to weigh. Being the same powertrain, I'd suspect the numbers to be almost identical.
Plus, the added fun of the sound of a V8, and the reliability that comes with it. It is on the same level as the M340i, which we all agree is in a different league than the Type-S. The M340i xDrive has the advantage of AWD, hence why it's quicker to 60 and has a lower ET in the quarter. On the big end, the time to 150MPH is identical and its trap speed is only 1MPH less. 5-60MPH time of the RC-F is actually better than the M340i.
But, as we've said before, it all comes down to pricing. If they start it at just under $60k, the Type-S will be an afterthought, especially with it coming to light how restricted those heads are. Even a turbo swap likely won't be enough to really wring out good power until you let those heads breathe. Great for a daily that you want to zip around town ... not for the likes of me that wants to take my anger issues out on an open freeway.
So you’re hoping that Lexus only charges $5,000 more for the V8 over a comparable IS 350F. My guess is the price will be $64K. Might as well buy a M340i if you’re going to spend that much. I’m sure you’d get a discount on the bimmer.
So you’re hoping that Lexus only charges $5,000 more for the V8 over a comparable IS 350F. My guess is the price will be $64K. Might as well buy a M340i if you’re going to spend that much. I’m sure you’d get a discount on the bimmer.
Why would someone who wants a V8 that performs well buy a 6 with equal performance? Muscle cars have a sound you just can't fake with a 6. The whole thing is about choice when things are close you buy which one you personally like the best. Its not like the 500 would get blown away like the TLX-S by the M340.
Why would someone who wants a V8 that performs well buy a 6 with equal performance? Muscle cars have a sound you just can't fake with a 6. The whole thing is about choice when things are close you buy which one you personally like the best. Its not like the 500 would get blown away like the TLX-S by the M340.
Perhaps because the M340i is .4 seconds faster 0-60, has better tech, a roomier cabin, gets much better gas mileage, will most likely have a lower transaction price, and has more brand cache.
Why would someone who wants a V8 that performs well buy a 6 with equal performance? Muscle cars have a sound you just can't fake with a 6. The whole thing is about choice when things are close you buy which one you personally like the best. Its not like the 500 would get blown away like the TLX-S by the M340.
As much as I love my Bimmer if that IS500 was out at the time I got the M340 I’d probably go with the 500. I’ve been wanting Lexus to put that Motor in the new body style for forever. I actually wanted an ISF but couldn’t get over how much they cost used.
So you’re hoping that Lexus only charges $5,000 more for the V8 over a comparable IS 350F. My guess is the price will be $64K. Might as well buy a M340i if you’re going to spend that much. I’m sure you’d get a discount on the bimmer.
It sounds like you've never driven a car with the 2UR-GSE, because if you have, you'd understand what makes them so special. As good of a car as the M340i is, I'll take the 2UR over the B58 motor any day of the week. If I wanted the absolute fastest car in a straight line at that price point, I'd get a Model 3. If I wanted to set lap times, I'd get an M3. And if I wanted the most exciting and enjoyable engine hands down, I would get the IS500.
So you’re hoping that Lexus only charges $5,000 more for the V8 over a comparable IS 350F. My guess is the price will be $64K. Might as well buy a M340i if you’re going to spend that much. I’m sure you’d get a discount on the bimmer.
You could be right, but then it would be priced exactly the same as the RC-F, which is a full blown F car. My thinking is they named it IS-500 F-Sport for the reason that you're not getting a full blown F model, so you get the engine, but not the handling goodies. It's hopefully also a justification for them to price it less. Also, isn't the Type-S $6k more than the SH-AWD A-Spec? So, it's not otherworldly to imagine that the price increase may not be too extravagant.
Hopefully we find out in under a month as to what is what.
It sounds like you've never driven a car with the 2UR-GSE, because if you have, you'd understand what makes them so special. As good of a car as the M340i is, I'll take the 2UR over the B58 motor any day of the week. If I wanted the absolute fastest car in a straight line at that price point, I'd get a Model 3. If I wanted to set lap times, I'd get an M3. And if I wanted the most exciting and enjoyable engine hands down, I would get the IS500.
The question is how much would you be willing to pay for it? The RC F starts at $65.5K and easily goes over $70K with the premium package added. That’s $15K more the a loaded RC350F. I’m sure the V8 is a wonderful motor yet damn does it seem to be expensive.
The question is how much would you be willing to pay for it? The RC F starts at $65.5K and easily goes over $70K with the premium package added. That’s $15K more the a loaded RC350F. I’m sure the V8 is a wonderful motor yet damn does it seem to be expensive.
The RCF costs much more than the RC350F because it has a bunch of extra features to make it more track capable. The IS500 likely won't have those things, so the premium over the IS350 should be smaller. There is no way the IS500 will cost most more than the RCF, which is why most people are expecting it to start right around $60K. And at that price, it's a very compelling option.
The RCF costs much more than the RC350F because it has a bunch of extra features to make it more track capable. The IS500 likely won't have those things, so the premium over the IS350 should be smaller. There is no way the IS500 will cost most more than the RCF, which is why most people are expecting it to start right around $60K. And at that price, it's a very compelling option.
We’ll know in a few weeks. The thing about Lexus is that they don’t value price. As Bear alluded to in another post they know they can charge more and have no problem doing so.
We’ll know in a few weeks. The thing about Lexus is that they don’t value price. As Bear alluded to in another post they know they can charge more and have no problem doing so.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Historically Lexus has played the value game, not quite as hard as Acura, but generally still cheaper than the comparable German cars. The ES starts a good $15K less than its closest competitor the Audi A6, and the LS starts a good $10K less than the 7-Series and A8, and almost $20K less than the S450. In fact, they were so good at undercutting the competition that they effectively killed their own GS by relegating it to only enthusiasts.
Lexus knows their customers are more price sensitive than the competition; hence why reliability and low operating costs is such a high priority.
Perhaps because the M340i is .4 seconds faster 0-60, has better tech, a roomier cabin, gets much better gas mileage, will most likely have a lower transaction price, and has more brand cache.
Its still a final 4 prestige brand with a V8. BMW has more cache but you need to go to the 5 series to get an V8.
08-14-2021, 10:26 AM
