2021 Acura TLX vs The Competition
07-20-2021, 02:04 PM
#801
AZ Community Team
The problem is that this race isn't really important. Interesting maybe. I'm interested in Accords beating 330s because I like Accords and that results are cool. I also recognize that this race is really irrelevant to cars, brands or really anything, because it pits an Accord 2.0T, which by all metrics is an impressive overachiever in price, quality and performance, against a bottom of the barrel BMW. As in the least performance oriented, slowest, cheapest you can get. Actually, don't they make a 320? Is that a smaller engine that makes for an even slower car? I don't care to go research and frankly don't care what the Euros are up to these days. The point is, good for the Accord 2.0T. It would probably beat a stripped A4 too. It's a great car. Honda should be proud of it. That doesn't mean Honda > BMW or even that Accord 2.0T > 3 Series.
As long as this Youtuber is comparing bottom tier cars, a more relevant race would be an Accord 1.5T against the 330, again, because those are the "not performance" options. I already know the 1.5T is slow - slower than my hybrid - so that race won't go over well for Honda.
However, Acura is not making Accords. Acura exists to make premium** cars that compete in the space with BMW, Lexus, Audi, Volvo, etc. Or at least ALMOST compete, because, you know, "value proposition." That's sort of it's purpose. Getting back to races, I would be fine with someone racing a TLX 2.0T against a 330 to see what happens. Those are direct competitors. I don't know what the result would be - probably close? Maybe? And Acura could be proud of that result.
What the rest of us recognize (everyone besides Tony Pac and Honda430) and are trying to say is that the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Hondacura performance. Right? Or no? I'm not telling Acura to go build a slayer of the M3, but if you want to be a heavyweight, then you have to step into the ring with Mike Tyson. Acura's own benchmark was the S4, right? So why is the Type S so far behind the S4 and a M340? If Acura can neither aim nor shoot any higher than the current Type S, then it sure looks like they're satisfied resting on their laurels and making inferior cars.
**from Wikipedia: Acura is the luxury vehicle division of Japanese automaker Honda.[1] The brand was launched in the United States and Canada on 27 March 1986, marketing luxury, performance, and high-performance automobiles.
As long as this Youtuber is comparing bottom tier cars, a more relevant race would be an Accord 1.5T against the 330, again, because those are the "not performance" options. I already know the 1.5T is slow - slower than my hybrid - so that race won't go over well for Honda.
However, Acura is not making Accords. Acura exists to make premium** cars that compete in the space with BMW, Lexus, Audi, Volvo, etc. Or at least ALMOST compete, because, you know, "value proposition." That's sort of it's purpose. Getting back to races, I would be fine with someone racing a TLX 2.0T against a 330 to see what happens. Those are direct competitors. I don't know what the result would be - probably close? Maybe? And Acura could be proud of that result.
What the rest of us recognize (everyone besides Tony Pac and Honda430) and are trying to say is that the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Hondacura performance. Right? Or no? I'm not telling Acura to go build a slayer of the M3, but if you want to be a heavyweight, then you have to step into the ring with Mike Tyson. Acura's own benchmark was the S4, right? So why is the Type S so far behind the S4 and a M340? If Acura can neither aim nor shoot any higher than the current Type S, then it sure looks like they're satisfied resting on their laurels and making inferior cars.
**from Wikipedia: Acura is the luxury vehicle division of Japanese automaker Honda.[1] The brand was launched in the United States and Canada on 27 March 1986, marketing luxury, performance, and high-performance automobiles.
that the NSX is the pinnacle of Honda/Acura performance.
07-20-2021, 02:31 PM
#802
Some Guy Who Loves Cars
Funny guy. I thought about that while I was typing, but as I said somewhere else on the 2G forum, the NSX is a halo car. They only sell 100-300 in a whole year. If you want to compare apples to apples, how does the NSX stack up against the Corvette, R8 or 911?
So are you in the market for any of those supercars or plan to use them as daily drivers? You should check out McLaren while you're at it.
So are you in the market for any of those supercars or plan to use them as daily drivers? You should check out McLaren while you're at it.
07-20-2021, 02:51 PM
#803
AZ Community Team
Funny guy. I thought about that while I was typing, but as I said somewhere else on the 2G forum, the NSX is a halo car. They only sell 100-300 in a whole year. If you want to compare apples to apples, how does the NSX stack up against the Corvette, R8 or 911?
So are you in the market for any of those supercars or plan to use them as daily drivers? You should check out McLaren while you're at it.
So are you in the market for any of those supercars or plan to use them as daily drivers? You should check out McLaren while you're at it.
you're deflecting, you wrote
What the rest of us recognize (everyone besides Tony Pac and Honda430) and are trying to say is that the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Hondacura performance.
Acura almost sold 600 in 2017, but probably won't break even as the 1G NSX didn't either.
NSX does fairly well in comparison tests (R8, McLaren, 911 Turbo,...), here against a Ferrari and McLaren. Although gotta wonder why a Portofino was chosen.
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re...-vs-honda-nsx/
Difficult market to say the least, curious how the C8 has/will shake it up.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 07-20-2021 at 03:03 PM.
07-20-2021, 11:45 PM
#804
I recently purchased a '21 TLX Advance, and I'd like to walk through my decision-making process in case it helps others. Apologies in advance for the essay.
I knew I wanted a sedan, and I was shooting for something in the $35k-$45k range. That essentially ruled out the Type S, S4, M340i's of the world, and it narrowed my focus to higher trim options from mainstream brands and non-German luxury brands. I also knew I wanted something that was a good balance of sport and luxury without tipping too far in either direction. I initially eliminated a few options for the reasons noted below:
Chevrolet Malibu, Volkswagen Passat, Subaru Legacy, Nissan Altima --- elicited absolutely zero excitement
Volvo S60, Cadillac CT5 --- felt more luxury than sport
Alfa Romeo Giulia --- very poor reliability and a little too spicy for my Midwestern sensibilities
Mercedes-Benz C-Class --- getting refreshed for 2022, and the style was too gaudy for me
BMW 3 series --- probably the best in the segment, but pricey when you spec it out, and I have too many family and friends with G20 330i's
Infiniti Q50 --- very outdated interior and several reviews noted how terrible the steering was
Tesla Model 3 --- test drove one last year and I did not like the sterile interior, single-iPad interface, and the (often) insufferable owners
The remaining options where I focused my research were the TLX, Accord 2.0T, Camry V6, Sonata N-Line, K5 GT, Lexus IS300, Mazda 6 Turbo, Audi A4, Stinger, G70, and Volkswagen Arteon. I watched a ton of YouTube video reviews on each of these (FWIW, I found Savagegeese, Throttle House, and Alex on Autos to be the most knowledgeable and detailed reviewers). After watching reviews, I then eliminated:
Hyundai Sonata N-Line, Kia K5 GT --- 2.5T models really can't put the power down with a FWD open-diff setup, driving experience was usually described as "messy"
Mazda 6 Turbo --- takes itself too seriously, very dark and elegant and somewhat German-feeling
Lexus IS300 --- powertrains are ancient and my previous car was a naturally aspirated V6, so I was looking for something a bit different
Volkswagen Arteon --- it has some sporty looks, but it's really more of a luxury cruiser
Audi A4 --- for some reason, I never connected with it. Felt too old man-ish. Probably is behind the 3 series for overall best driving dynamics in the class, and you can get a well equipped one in the high 40s. The current B9 gen hasn't had too many issues yet, but previous generations have been a reliability nightmare
I hoped to set up test drives with the remaining 5, but had no luck finding a V6 Camry in my area, so ended up just testing the TLX, Accord 2.0T, Stinger 3.3T, and G70 2.0T and 3.3T. Going into the test drives, I was expecting the Stinger would be my choice, but obviously that was not the case. Here's how I would summarize those four:
Honda Accord 2.0T --- hilariously quick for a mild-mannered family sedan. There's plenty of quarter mile videos on YouTube where it easily beats the TLX and even edges a 330i. The car is light, and it definitely feels light when you drive it, which is good, but you also notice the road noise and the car doesn't feel as solid as the TLX. It still had some issues putting power down with the open diff; it was not hard to get the wheels to squeal. While it was quick, the chassis was not dynamic whatsoever. Interior is exactly what you'd expect from a Honda: very functional with good but sub-luxury quality. Overall it was hard to find faults in the Accord, but the driving experience wasn't as fun or interesting as the numbers would suggest.
Kia Stinger 3.3T --- found it to be really disappointing overall. The engine is fantastic; very smooth and refined, and the car was fast AF in a straight line. But he rest of the car was a letdown. The interior looks good in pictures but it's more Dodge Charger-level in person. The ride felt a lot more wallowy and unsettled than I was expecting. I've seen a lot of reviews describing the car as sharp and dynamic, but it definitely didn't feel that way to me unless I was going straight. I'm not the type to drive 90-100 on the highway, so I didn't feel like the car fit my driving style. I also read some of the Stinger forums and there are lots of complaints about squeaks and rattles. I know there are a lot of people that love this car, and I really expected to as well, but I came away feeling like it was overhyped.
Genesis G70 --- I did two test drives, a fully loaded 2.0T and a bare bones 3.3T. The 2.0T is not nearly as good as the K20C 2.0T from Honda/Acura. Like the Stinger, the 3.3T was great. The G70 felt way more solid and rigid compared to the Accord and Stinger. It's also dimensionally much shorter, so it felt significantly more agile. The downside is the backseats were almost dealbreaker bad in terms of space. I forgot to bring my car seat to test, but I don't think it would've fit with a front passenger. The ride was definitely on the firm side, but it wasn't unbearable. The exterior looked outstanding in person and was a perfect blend of luxury and sport, but the interior has more of that old man luxury feel. Other than the backseat space, the two things I didn't like were: 1) it's still trying too hard to be a cheaper BMW 2) the Genesis dealer was located in a random corner of a large Hyundai dealership. The salesperson wasn't very knowledgeable about the G70, and I didn't get the vibe that they really knew how to service performance sedans. I also worried a little about parts availability due to being a new brand that's not selling well yet. Overall, the car was good and it would've been a tough choice between TLX and G70 if not for the dealer setup.
Acura TLX --- The body rigidity and the chassis are what make the car stand out relative to the others I test drove. You immediately feel how much more solid it feels compared to the Accord, which helps make it feel great around corners but also explains why it's slower in a straight line. The torque-vectoring SH-AWD is very noticeable. You can feel the outside rear wheel being overdriven and you get get on the gas earlier than other cars coming out of a corner. It felt more dynamic than the Stinger despite the big power deficit. The different drive modes also lead to very noticeable changes. The interior and exterior design are very unique and not trying to copy the Germans. Material quality was the best of the ones I test drove, but a notch below Germans/Volvo/etc. The two things I did not have an issue with, but others might would be: 1) it's quite a bit bigger than other compact sedans, so it might not be ideal if you live in a crowded city 2) it's not that fast in a straight line due to weight.
Hopefully this helps for any others that are looking at sedans in a similar price range. I still think the Germans are on top, but you will probably have to pay more up front and potentially down the road. IMO, the TLX stacks up really well with the Japanense/Korean options.
I knew I wanted a sedan, and I was shooting for something in the $35k-$45k range. That essentially ruled out the Type S, S4, M340i's of the world, and it narrowed my focus to higher trim options from mainstream brands and non-German luxury brands. I also knew I wanted something that was a good balance of sport and luxury without tipping too far in either direction. I initially eliminated a few options for the reasons noted below:
Chevrolet Malibu, Volkswagen Passat, Subaru Legacy, Nissan Altima --- elicited absolutely zero excitement
Volvo S60, Cadillac CT5 --- felt more luxury than sport
Alfa Romeo Giulia --- very poor reliability and a little too spicy for my Midwestern sensibilities
Mercedes-Benz C-Class --- getting refreshed for 2022, and the style was too gaudy for me
BMW 3 series --- probably the best in the segment, but pricey when you spec it out, and I have too many family and friends with G20 330i's
Infiniti Q50 --- very outdated interior and several reviews noted how terrible the steering was
Tesla Model 3 --- test drove one last year and I did not like the sterile interior, single-iPad interface, and the (often) insufferable owners
The remaining options where I focused my research were the TLX, Accord 2.0T, Camry V6, Sonata N-Line, K5 GT, Lexus IS300, Mazda 6 Turbo, Audi A4, Stinger, G70, and Volkswagen Arteon. I watched a ton of YouTube video reviews on each of these (FWIW, I found Savagegeese, Throttle House, and Alex on Autos to be the most knowledgeable and detailed reviewers). After watching reviews, I then eliminated:
Hyundai Sonata N-Line, Kia K5 GT --- 2.5T models really can't put the power down with a FWD open-diff setup, driving experience was usually described as "messy"
Mazda 6 Turbo --- takes itself too seriously, very dark and elegant and somewhat German-feeling
Lexus IS300 --- powertrains are ancient and my previous car was a naturally aspirated V6, so I was looking for something a bit different
Volkswagen Arteon --- it has some sporty looks, but it's really more of a luxury cruiser
Audi A4 --- for some reason, I never connected with it. Felt too old man-ish. Probably is behind the 3 series for overall best driving dynamics in the class, and you can get a well equipped one in the high 40s. The current B9 gen hasn't had too many issues yet, but previous generations have been a reliability nightmare
I hoped to set up test drives with the remaining 5, but had no luck finding a V6 Camry in my area, so ended up just testing the TLX, Accord 2.0T, Stinger 3.3T, and G70 2.0T and 3.3T. Going into the test drives, I was expecting the Stinger would be my choice, but obviously that was not the case. Here's how I would summarize those four:
Honda Accord 2.0T --- hilariously quick for a mild-mannered family sedan. There's plenty of quarter mile videos on YouTube where it easily beats the TLX and even edges a 330i. The car is light, and it definitely feels light when you drive it, which is good, but you also notice the road noise and the car doesn't feel as solid as the TLX. It still had some issues putting power down with the open diff; it was not hard to get the wheels to squeal. While it was quick, the chassis was not dynamic whatsoever. Interior is exactly what you'd expect from a Honda: very functional with good but sub-luxury quality. Overall it was hard to find faults in the Accord, but the driving experience wasn't as fun or interesting as the numbers would suggest.
Kia Stinger 3.3T --- found it to be really disappointing overall. The engine is fantastic; very smooth and refined, and the car was fast AF in a straight line. But he rest of the car was a letdown. The interior looks good in pictures but it's more Dodge Charger-level in person. The ride felt a lot more wallowy and unsettled than I was expecting. I've seen a lot of reviews describing the car as sharp and dynamic, but it definitely didn't feel that way to me unless I was going straight. I'm not the type to drive 90-100 on the highway, so I didn't feel like the car fit my driving style. I also read some of the Stinger forums and there are lots of complaints about squeaks and rattles. I know there are a lot of people that love this car, and I really expected to as well, but I came away feeling like it was overhyped.
Genesis G70 --- I did two test drives, a fully loaded 2.0T and a bare bones 3.3T. The 2.0T is not nearly as good as the K20C 2.0T from Honda/Acura. Like the Stinger, the 3.3T was great. The G70 felt way more solid and rigid compared to the Accord and Stinger. It's also dimensionally much shorter, so it felt significantly more agile. The downside is the backseats were almost dealbreaker bad in terms of space. I forgot to bring my car seat to test, but I don't think it would've fit with a front passenger. The ride was definitely on the firm side, but it wasn't unbearable. The exterior looked outstanding in person and was a perfect blend of luxury and sport, but the interior has more of that old man luxury feel. Other than the backseat space, the two things I didn't like were: 1) it's still trying too hard to be a cheaper BMW 2) the Genesis dealer was located in a random corner of a large Hyundai dealership. The salesperson wasn't very knowledgeable about the G70, and I didn't get the vibe that they really knew how to service performance sedans. I also worried a little about parts availability due to being a new brand that's not selling well yet. Overall, the car was good and it would've been a tough choice between TLX and G70 if not for the dealer setup.
Acura TLX --- The body rigidity and the chassis are what make the car stand out relative to the others I test drove. You immediately feel how much more solid it feels compared to the Accord, which helps make it feel great around corners but also explains why it's slower in a straight line. The torque-vectoring SH-AWD is very noticeable. You can feel the outside rear wheel being overdriven and you get get on the gas earlier than other cars coming out of a corner. It felt more dynamic than the Stinger despite the big power deficit. The different drive modes also lead to very noticeable changes. The interior and exterior design are very unique and not trying to copy the Germans. Material quality was the best of the ones I test drove, but a notch below Germans/Volvo/etc. The two things I did not have an issue with, but others might would be: 1) it's quite a bit bigger than other compact sedans, so it might not be ideal if you live in a crowded city 2) it's not that fast in a straight line due to weight.
Hopefully this helps for any others that are looking at sedans in a similar price range. I still think the Germans are on top, but you will probably have to pay more up front and potentially down the road. IMO, the TLX stacks up really well with the Japanense/Korean options.
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07-20-2021, 11:58 PM
#805
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
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you're deflecting, you wrote so I was merely pointing out the obvious Acura almost sold 600 in 2017, but probably won't break even as the 1G NSX didn't either.
NSX does fairly well in comparison tests (R8, McLaren, 911 Turbo,...), here against a Ferrari and McLaren. Although gotta wonder why a Portofino was chosen.
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re...-vs-honda-nsx/
Difficult market to say the least, curious how the C8 has/will shake it up.
Must have picked 2017 since it was the best year they ever had. The second best year was 2018 @ 154. Then they dropped to 113 last year with $20,000+ in discounts. This year through June @ 60 still with $20,000 in discounts. Car is pretty much invisible at our local Cars & Coffee, usually 2 or 3 show up.
Funny thing when I lived in England the Gen 1 NSX had a HONDA badge on it in the front window of the HONDA store. So is it the Halo brand for Honda or Acura? Seems like they are only Acura Halo's in the US, maybe Canada. Right now they can't even sell the Gen 2 NSX in Japan
"Carscoops and the Japanese site Car Watch report that Honda has ceased sales of the 2020 model year NSX. While this may not seem like a big deal because it's a previous model year, it highlights the low sales the NSX has had even in its home market. According to Honda, though sales have stopped, production has not.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 07-21-2021 at 12:06 AM.
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07-21-2021, 07:08 AM
#806
Some Guy Who Loves Cars
Don't think much deflecting was taking place as some times its very hard to be the Halo car of a brand if no one will buy it.
Must have picked 2017 since it was the best year they ever had. The second best year was 2018 @ 154. Then they dropped to 113 last year with $20,000+ in discounts. This year through June @ 60 still with $20,000 in discounts. Car is pretty much invisible at our local Cars & Coffee, usually 2 or 3 show up.
Must have picked 2017 since it was the best year they ever had. The second best year was 2018 @ 154. Then they dropped to 113 last year with $20,000+ in discounts. This year through June @ 60 still with $20,000 in discounts. Car is pretty much invisible at our local Cars & Coffee, usually 2 or 3 show up.
The NSX is absolutely the pinnacle of Hondacura, but no one is buying it (except Jay Leno, who I think was on the waitlist for the 2G when they were released), and I've never seen one in person, parked or driving. I was saying the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Acura performance for the everyman like me and the rest of us, you know, who have kids and want daily driver with a back seat, not a car to park in my third stall for half the year. Forget about the M3, which is the quintessential sports sedan, the Type S can't even beat a Accord 2.0T.
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04WDPSeDaN (07-21-2021)
07-21-2021, 07:19 AM
#807
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
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This is precisely what I was saying. I saw the same numbers as Legend2TL on carsalesbase. You don't have to take statistics in college to recognize an outlier in a dataset. But that is the year he chose as if 600 was the silver bullet that made his point. Even compared to the other years of 100-300, these are extremely limited numbers of NSXs compared to say equivalent performance of Corvette selling 15k-30k and 911 selling almost 10k annually in the US.
The NSX is absolutely the pinnacle of Hondacura, but no one is buying it (except Jay Leno, who I think was on the waitlist for the 2G when they were released), and I've never seen one in person, parked or driving. I was saying the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Acura performance for the everyman like me and the rest of us, you know, who have kids and want daily driver with a back seat, not a car to park in my third stall for half the year. Forget about the M3, which is the quintessential sports sedan, the Type S can't even beat a Accord 2.0T.
The NSX is absolutely the pinnacle of Hondacura, but no one is buying it (except Jay Leno, who I think was on the waitlist for the 2G when they were released), and I've never seen one in person, parked or driving. I was saying the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Acura performance for the everyman like me and the rest of us, you know, who have kids and want daily driver with a back seat, not a car to park in my third stall for half the year. Forget about the M3, which is the quintessential sports sedan, the Type S can't even beat a Accord 2.0T.
07-21-2021, 07:41 AM
#808
Genesis G70 --- I did two test drives, a fully loaded 2.0T and a bare bones 3.3T. The 2.0T is not nearly as good as the K20C 2.0T from Honda/Acura. Like the Stinger, the 3.3T was great. The G70 felt way more solid and rigid compared to the Accord and Stinger. It's also dimensionally much shorter, so it felt significantly more agile. The downside is the backseats were almost dealbreaker bad in terms of space. I forgot to bring my car seat to test, but I don't think it would've fit with a front passenger. The ride was definitely on the firm side, but it wasn't unbearable. The exterior looked outstanding in person and was a perfect blend of luxury and sport, but the interior has more of that old man luxury feel. Other than the backseat space, the two things I didn't like were: 1) it's still trying too hard to be a cheaper BMW 2) the Genesis dealer was located in a random corner of a large Hyundai dealership. The salesperson wasn't very knowledgeable about the G70, and I didn't get the vibe that they really knew how to service performance sedans. I also worried a little about parts availability due to being a new brand that's not selling well yet. Overall, the car was good and it would've been a tough choice between TLX and G70 if not for the dealer setup.
07-21-2021, 08:19 AM
#809
I do have the rear facing carseat in the TLX. It's snug, but it fits without compromising too much. I know the rear legroom specs are similar to the G70, but I think the extra front space in the TLX makes it easier to fit a carseat without making the front seat unusable.
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07-21-2021, 08:30 AM
#810
I do have the rear facing carseat in the TLX. It's snug, but it fits without compromising too much. I know the rear legroom specs are similar to the G70, but I think the extra front space in the TLX makes it easier to fit a carseat without making the front seat unusable.
This TLX wouldn't be my first choice for a family sedan as the low ceiling height is conducive to concussions!
07-21-2021, 08:36 AM
#811
I do have the rear facing carseat in the TLX. It's snug, but it fits without compromising too much. I know the rear legroom specs are similar to the G70, but I think the extra front space in the TLX makes it easier to fit a carseat without making the front seat unusable.
07-21-2021, 08:38 AM
#812
It's behind the passenger seat. My wife is 5'8" and fits fine. Her seat is a little more upright than she would prefer, but we've done a few hour long drives and she wasn't uncomfortable.
07-21-2021, 08:43 AM
#813
I think you will find the owner's thread to be a good resource:
https://acurazine.com/forums/second-...thread-990844/
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07-21-2021, 10:07 AM
#814
AZ Community Team
you're probably right <1%Don't think much deflecting was taking place as some times its very hard to be the Halo car of a brand if no one will buy it.
Must have picked 2017 since it was the best year they ever had. The second best year was 2018 @ 154. Then they dropped to 113 last year with $20,000+ in discounts. This year through June @ 60 still with $20,000 in discounts. Car is pretty much invisible at our local Cars & Coffee, usually 2 or 3 show up.
Funny thing when I lived in England the Gen 1 NSX had a HONDA badge on it in the front window of the HONDA store. So is it the Halo brand for Honda or Acura? Seems like they are only Acura Halo's in the US, maybe Canada. Right now they can't even sell the Gen 2 NSX in Japan
...
"Carscoops and the Japanese site Car Watch report that Honda has ceased sales of the 2020 model year NSX. While this may not seem like a big deal because it's a previous model year, it highlights the low sales the NSX has had even in its home market. According to Honda, though sales have stopped, production has not.
Must have picked 2017 since it was the best year they ever had. The second best year was 2018 @ 154. Then they dropped to 113 last year with $20,000+ in discounts. This year through June @ 60 still with $20,000 in discounts. Car is pretty much invisible at our local Cars & Coffee, usually 2 or 3 show up.
Funny thing when I lived in England the Gen 1 NSX had a HONDA badge on it in the front window of the HONDA store. So is it the Halo brand for Honda or Acura? Seems like they are only Acura Halo's in the US, maybe Canada. Right now they can't even sell the Gen 2 NSX in Japan
...
"Carscoops and the Japanese site Car Watch report that Honda has ceased sales of the 2020 model year NSX. While this may not seem like a big deal because it's a previous model year, it highlights the low sales the NSX has had even in its home market. According to Honda, though sales have stopped, production has not.
In terms of sales, don't know where you got those numbers but they do not match this
https://carsalesbase.com/us-acura-nsx/
which show
2016: 269
2017: 581
2018: 170
2019: 238
2020: 128
So to say "no one" is a exaggeration, "few" is perfect.
This is precisely what I was saying. I saw the same numbers as Legend2TL on carsalesbase. You don't have to take statistics in college to recognize an outlier in a dataset. But that is the year he chose as if 600 was the silver bullet that made his point. Even compared to the other years of 100-300, these are extremely limited numbers of NSXs compared to say equivalent performance of Corvette selling 15k-30k and 911 selling almost 10k annually in the US.
The NSX is absolutely the pinnacle of Hondacura, but no one is buying it (except Jay Leno, who I think was on the waitlist for the 2G when they were released), and I've never seen one in person, parked or driving. I was saying the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Acura performance for the everyman like me and the rest of us, you know, who have kids and want daily driver with a back seat, not a car to park in my third stall for half the year. Forget about the M3, which is the quintessential sports sedan, the Type S can't even beat a Accord 2.0T.
The NSX is absolutely the pinnacle of Hondacura, but no one is buying it (except Jay Leno, who I think was on the waitlist for the 2G when they were released), and I've never seen one in person, parked or driving. I was saying the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Acura performance for the everyman like me and the rest of us, you know, who have kids and want daily driver with a back seat, not a car to park in my third stall for half the year. Forget about the M3, which is the quintessential sports sedan, the Type S can't even beat a Accord 2.0T.
No one = zeroIf you woulda said
I was saying the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Acura performance for the everyman like me and the rest of us, you know, who have kids and want daily driver with a back seat, not a car to park in my third stall for half the year.
What the rest of us recognize (everyone besides Tony Pac and Honda430) and are trying to say is that the Type S is supposed to be the pinnacle of Hondacura performance.
IIRC the main market comparison for the 2G NSX according to Acura was the Audi R8 and Ferrari 458. In 2017 there were 772 R8's sold in the US but overall the R8 is selling much better than the 2G NSX.
The car has been praised overall for it's various tech and performance, the 2G NSX does not have much clout in the supercar market no matter how it works as a DD or being reliable and low maintenance.
FWIW, the 911 and Corvette were the main marketing competition for the 1G NSX which never got near either of those in sales so despite great praise from Gordon Murray or Luca di Montezemolo it didn't matter to plumbers or doctors who probably had no clue who they are and bought their Corvette's and 911's.
Again the marketing folks at Honda/Acura kinda failed no matter how good/bad the reviews are for the 2G NSX, it's sales are not many even for the market it's positioned for.
Climbing out of the hole now
Last edited by Legend2TL; 07-21-2021 at 10:21 AM.
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WTF.Acura (07-23-2021)
07-21-2021, 10:47 AM
#815
That's interesting, which car seat do you have? I tried putting a Cybex Aton M, Nuna Rava, and Nuna Exec behind the passenger seat and had to move it up considerably to the point where my 5'5" wife was pretty uncomfortable sitting there with her knees touching the glove box.
07-21-2021, 11:01 AM
#816
That's interesting, which car seat do you have? I tried putting a Cybex Aton M, Nuna Rava, and Nuna Exec behind the passenger seat and had to move it up considerably to the point where my 5'5" wife was pretty uncomfortable sitting there with her knees touching the glove box.
07-21-2021, 08:42 PM
#817
I'm going wild on a tangent I think...but holy hell how does Merc squeeze 375hp out of a 2.0L engine and Acura can't do it with 50% more displacement? I happened to be googling the CLA45 and it's just bonkers the paper-stats on that thing.
Either the trans/diff are going to be fragile like glass and/or we should see some pretty impressive KTuner gains.
Or maybe Acura just really didn't bother flowing the cylinder head properly. Think that was a problem with the 2.0L that chokes it off at high RPM.
Either the trans/diff are going to be fragile like glass and/or we should see some pretty impressive KTuner gains.
Or maybe Acura just really didn't bother flowing the cylinder head properly. Think that was a problem with the 2.0L that chokes it off at high RPM.
07-21-2021, 10:43 PM
#818
I'm going wild on a tangent I think...but holy hell how does Merc squeeze 375hp out of a 2.0L engine and Acura can't do it with 50% more displacement? I happened to be googling the CLA45 and it's just bonkers the paper-stats on that thing.
Either the trans/diff are going to be fragile like glass and/or we should see some pretty impressive KTuner gains.
Or maybe Acura just really didn't bother flowing the cylinder head properly. Think that was a problem with the 2.0L that chokes it off at high RPM.
Either the trans/diff are going to be fragile like glass and/or we should see some pretty impressive KTuner gains.
Or maybe Acura just really didn't bother flowing the cylinder head properly. Think that was a problem with the 2.0L that chokes it off at high RPM.
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BEAR-AvHistory (07-21-2021)
07-21-2021, 10:49 PM
#819
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Leaked info from BMWBLOG:
BMW 3 series Mid Market Update with be the 2023 cars. Front & rear updated + optional ($2500) M Performance Package (MPPK) looks like it will be available. No numbers but based on the ones I had in the past advertise BHP should be around 415BHP. The M cars moving up to 473 & 503BHP opened up some space to raise the M340's power.
BMW 3 series Mid Market Update with be the 2023 cars. Front & rear updated + optional ($2500) M Performance Package (MPPK) looks like it will be available. No numbers but based on the ones I had in the past advertise BHP should be around 415BHP. The M cars moving up to 473 & 503BHP opened up some space to raise the M340's power.
07-21-2021, 10:52 PM
#820
Suzuka Master
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07-23-2021, 12:24 AM
#821
Haha if the $55K Type-S was even competitive with the $70K fugly M3 BMW would be in serious trouble. Gonna have to see some evidence of a Type-S not beating a 2.0T Accord (which by the way happens to match or beat the BMW 330i/330xi).
07-23-2021, 04:14 AM
#822
Some Guy Who Loves Cars
I didn't mean beat in a race. I meant as an overall vehicle, considering price, performance, features and sales numbers. But strictly speaking in a race, yeah, the $55k Type S barely beats a $32k Accord 2.0T.
C/D TEST RESULTS - TLX TYPE S ............... C/D TEST RESULTS - ACCORD 2.0T SPORT
60 mph: 4.9 sec ........................................... 60 mph: 5.4 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.6 sec @ 103 mph ....................... 1/4 mile: 14.0 sec @ 101 mph
That side-by-side makes me realize that the guys saying "it's not about the numbers" or "most people won't notice a half second difference" when comparing the Type S to Euros are the same ones who would say a Type S "handily" beats an Accord 2.0T by a half second.
C/D TEST RESULTS - TLX TYPE S ............... C/D TEST RESULTS - ACCORD 2.0T SPORT
60 mph: 4.9 sec ........................................... 60 mph: 5.4 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.6 sec @ 103 mph ....................... 1/4 mile: 14.0 sec @ 101 mph
That side-by-side makes me realize that the guys saying "it's not about the numbers" or "most people won't notice a half second difference" when comparing the Type S to Euros are the same ones who would say a Type S "handily" beats an Accord 2.0T by a half second.
Last edited by someguy11; 07-23-2021 at 04:18 AM.
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07-23-2021, 04:37 AM
#823
Suzuka Master
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you're probably right <1%In terms of sales, don't know where you got those numbers but they do not match this
https://carsalesbase.com/us-acura-nsx/
which show
2016: 269
2017: 581
2018: 170
2019: 238
2020: 128
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/acura-nsx-sales-figures-usa-canada/
Just added up the months to get yearly totals. If their the numbers are different yours maybe global numbers. I don't remember people here using global numbers. When I post BMW AUDI MB numbers I use US/Canada Guess its OK for me to use global if you do.Regardless of the difference in reporting numbers the car is still got canceled in Japan.
BTW why would I give a shit how you would say anything? Are you the official language hall monitor?
Meant to ask is that car you are posing with yours?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 07-23-2021 at 04:50 AM.
07-23-2021, 05:59 AM
#824
Suzuka Master
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Found the error that Legend2TL was so kind as to research it for me. I lost 2 columns from each year. Just careless on my part. The no so good news is my bad numbers don't change the fact that the NSX is a failed product.
The correct Legend2TL numbers are totals sales for the life of the car 1384. Average about 277 cars a year or 23 a month. The NSX has been unmitigated disaster for Acura.
The correct Legend2TL numbers are totals sales for the life of the car 1384. Average about 277 cars a year or 23 a month. The NSX has been unmitigated disaster for Acura.
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someguy11 (07-23-2021)
07-23-2021, 09:11 AM
#825
Car Enthusiast
But strictly speaking in a race, yeah, the $55k Type S barely beats a $32k Accord 2.0T.
That side-by-side makes me realize that the guys saying "it's not about the numbers" or "most people won't notice a half second difference" when comparing the Type S to Euros are the same ones who would say a Type S "handily" beats an Accord 2.0T by a half second.
That side-by-side makes me realize that the guys saying "it's not about the numbers" or "most people won't notice a half second difference" when comparing the Type S to Euros are the same ones who would say a Type S "handily" beats an Accord 2.0T by a half second.
07-23-2021, 09:26 AM
#826
AZ Community Team
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/acura-nsx-sales-figures-usa-canada/
Just added up the months to get yearly totals. If their the numbers are different yours maybe global numbers. I don't remember people here using global numbers. When I post BMW AUDI MB numbers I use US/Canada Guess its OK for me to use global if you do.Regardless of the difference in reporting numbers the car is still got canceled in Japan.
BTW why would I give a shit how you would say anything? Are you the official language hall monitor?
Meant to ask is that car you are posing with yours?
meh, it was a discussion on which platform was the pinnacle of Acura/Honda performance.I merely pointed out the obvious that it was the NSX, which devolved into a discussion into it not being successful (again with the typical Honda/Acura downer routine).
I thought I was pretty honest and fair when I stated
Acura almost sold 600 in 2017, but probably won't break even as the 1G NSX didn't either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_..._sales_figures
Found the error that Legend2TL was so kind as to research it for me. I lost 2 columns from each year. Just careless on my part. The no so good news is my bad numbers don't change the fact that the NSX is a failed product.
The correct Legend2TL numbers are totals sales for the life of the car 1384. Average about 277 cars a year or 23 a month. The NSX has been unmitigated disaster for Acura.
The correct Legend2TL numbers are totals sales for the life of the car 1384. Average about 277 cars a year or 23 a month. The NSX has been unmitigated disaster for Acura.
As for the 2G NSX, it's a tactical business failure but then again so was the Porsche 959 and McLaren F1.
Both failed their business goals as well and lost ALOT of money, but in the long run both proved to be highly successful to their respective companies long term vision in technology and product evolution.
Will that happen to the 2G NSX in the long term?
Interesting question but only time will tell but I doubt it will add much if any technical or product marketing value to Honda/Acura just like the 1G NSX didn't either.
What the 1G NSX did influence was Ferrari and McLaren with Luca di Montezemolo and Gordon Murray not only praising it but using the NSX as a benchmark for Ferrari's and how the McLaren F1 should be a everyday supercar.
Sometimes a failure can become a vision, the Apple Newton which was a failure but some of it's technology and vision were applied to the iPhone which truly revolutionized Apple and it's business.
I'm a optimist but also a realist as well
Last edited by Legend2TL; 07-23-2021 at 09:41 AM.
07-23-2021, 09:31 AM
#827
Burning Brakes
If the regular TLX is a compromise for speed and luxury features, then what exactly is the Type-S ... double compromise? I blame Acura for starting this comparison game, now they got caught with their pants down. It doesn't work with performance folks.
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07-23-2021, 09:51 AM
#828
Three Wheelin'
Because sound system, handling, AWD, etc. But when the same applies to performance, well you don't need that. Who needs a car that fast, or that handles well on a track. This flip flop from fanboys is causing severe forum whiplash.
If the regular TLX is a compromise for speed and luxury features, then what exactly is the Type-S ... double compromise? I blame Acura for starting this comparison game, now they got caught with their pants down. It doesn't work with performance folks.
If the regular TLX is a compromise for speed and luxury features, then what exactly is the Type-S ... double compromise? I blame Acura for starting this comparison game, now they got caught with their pants down. It doesn't work with performance folks.
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someguy11 (07-23-2021)
07-23-2021, 09:53 AM
#829
AZ Community Team
Because sound system, handling, AWD, etc. But when the same applies to performance, well you don't need that. Who needs a car that fast, or that handles well on a track. This flip flop from fanboys is causing severe forum whiplash.
If the regular TLX is a compromise for speed and luxury features, then what exactly is the Type-S ... double compromise? I blame Acura for starting this comparison game, now they got caught with their pants down. It doesn't work with performance folks.
If the regular TLX is a compromise for speed and luxury features, then what exactly is the Type-S ... double compromise? I blame Acura for starting this comparison game, now they got caught with their pants down. It doesn't work with performance folks.
Meh, alot of the the Type-S reviews praise it's suspension performance and handling. So to say it doesn't perform is false, it have great handling and below average acceleration.From C&D Type-S review
The structure is certainly stiff. But when driven back to back with a showroom-fresh Audi S4 that Acura brought out for a Pepsi challenge, the Audi's suspension isolation and structure felt just a little more buttoned up. We did find, however, that the TLX had livelier handling, more talkative steering, and better brake feel.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 07-23-2021 at 09:58 AM.
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WTF.Acura (07-23-2021)
07-23-2021, 10:07 AM
#830
Compare that to the Accord Touring for $36,000 you get a 14.0s car with a HUD, 360? (I think?), heated wheel, heated rear, back USB, bigger back seats, wireless carplay/android auto, a proper touch screen for the infotainment, etc.
So what are you getting with the TLX-S? AWD, Sound System, .4s. Not bad things to gain but you lose a lot for it, you lose so much in fact that the car not being closer to a high 12s car isn't just disappointing it's a deal breaker for a lot of people as the value just isn't there anymore. Want the luxury features? Get the TLX-Advance or Accord Touring. Want performance AND luxury? Get the S4 or G70. TLX-S is in an awkward spot unless you're in a bubble where you're already in love with the TLX as a car in general in which case the S is undoubtedly the more entertaining version to get.
07-23-2021, 10:11 AM
#831
Three Wheelin'
The Mazda 6 and VW Passat are now dead too, seems like every few days we hear about the demise of another sedan:
https://amp.freep.com/amp/8045546002
https://amp.freep.com/amp/8045546002
07-23-2021, 10:15 AM
#832
Racer
The Mazda 6 and VW Passat are now dead too, seems like every few days we hear about the demise of another sedan:
https://amp.freep.com/amp/8045546002
https://amp.freep.com/amp/8045546002
Next-Gen Mazda 6 Switching to RWD Layout, Inline-Six Power
Slated to arrive in 2022, the new mid-size sedan will kick Mazda's upmarket ambitions into high gear.https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...onfirmed-2022/
07-23-2021, 10:21 AM
#833
Burning Brakes
So being much slower is ok versus feeling just slightly better? With all that talk about double wishbone suspension, it should feel substantially better on the track. Brake feel may be better, but stopping distance is still longer. It's all subjective to driver, numbers are not. Audi does have little steering feel (confirmed on my A4), but I'm curious if that S4 had the adaptive steering since it should fix it a bit. Still not worth over 1k to me, as long as steering works.
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Tony Pac (07-23-2021)
07-23-2021, 11:46 AM
#835
You can't deny the packaging problem surely. For $52,000 you get a 13.6s car with no HUD, no 360, no rear bench heaters, no steering wheel heater, no back USB, compromised back seat space (hate to even say it but we can't deny it's a fact despite many not caring), no wireless carplay / android auto, just to name a few of the things missing from the TLX-S. The Advance has most of that but why keep it off the TLX-S?
Compare that to the Accord Touring for $36,000 you get a 14.0s car with a HUD, 360? (I think?), heated wheel, heated rear, back USB, bigger back seats, wireless carplay/android auto, a proper touch screen for the infotainment, etc.
So what are you getting with the TLX-S? AWD, Sound System, .4s. Not bad things to gain but you lose a lot for it, you lose so much in fact that the car not being closer to a high 12s car isn't just disappointing it's a deal breaker for a lot of people as the value just isn't there anymore. Want the luxury features? Get the TLX-Advance or Accord Touring. Want performance AND luxury? Get the S4 or G70. TLX-S is in an awkward spot unless you're in a bubble where you're already in love with the TLX as a car in general in which case the S is undoubtedly the more entertaining version to get.
Compare that to the Accord Touring for $36,000 you get a 14.0s car with a HUD, 360? (I think?), heated wheel, heated rear, back USB, bigger back seats, wireless carplay/android auto, a proper touch screen for the infotainment, etc.
So what are you getting with the TLX-S? AWD, Sound System, .4s. Not bad things to gain but you lose a lot for it, you lose so much in fact that the car not being closer to a high 12s car isn't just disappointing it's a deal breaker for a lot of people as the value just isn't there anymore. Want the luxury features? Get the TLX-Advance or Accord Touring. Want performance AND luxury? Get the S4 or G70. TLX-S is in an awkward spot unless you're in a bubble where you're already in love with the TLX as a car in general in which case the S is undoubtedly the more entertaining version to get.
07-23-2021, 01:36 PM
#836
Meh, alot of the the Type-S reviews praise it's suspension performance and handling. So to say it doesn't perform is false, it have great handling and below average acceleration.From C&D Type-S review
Quote:
The structure is certainly stiff. But when driven back to back with a showroom-fresh Audi S4 that Acura brought out for a Pepsi challenge, the Audi's suspension isolation and structure felt just a little more buttoned up. We did find, however, that the TLX had livelier handling, more talkative steering, and better brake feel.
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BEAR-AvHistory (07-23-2021)
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one4all (07-24-2021)
07-23-2021, 03:04 PM
#838
Some Guy Who Loves Cars
a) the Touring comes fully loaded with options that (I think) aren't even available in the Advance (yowsers) and
b) that term is traditionally reserved for point-A-to-point-B car, cloth seats, usually stick, that was stripped of any options, like no power anything, cassette decks or defrosters when that stuff was optional - the Accord has never been that, not even the LX trim. Think more like yes Mirage, or Geo, Tercel, Cavalier, certain Civic hatchbacks (HX or DX).
I'm not even saying that to defend Honda, the Accord or because I own one. I don't think an econobox would make 30x 10 Bests, the 2nd best selling car in America, etc. No one calls the Accord or Camry that. That would be like calling the base TLX an econobox. Ask 100 car guys and not a single one would agree any of these are econoboxes.
Last edited by someguy11; 07-23-2021 at 03:09 PM.
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07-23-2021, 03:21 PM
#839
AZ Community Team
So being much slower is ok versus feeling just slightly better? With all that talk about double wishbone suspension, it should feel substantially better on the track. Brake feel may be better, but stopping distance is still longer. It's all subjective to driver, numbers are not. Audi does have little steering feel (confirmed on my A4), but I'm curious if that S4 had the adaptive steering since it should fix it a bit. Still not worth over 1k to me, as long as steering works.
it have great handling and below average acceleration.
To me overall user driving experience is more important than just numbers alone.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 07-23-2021 at 03:25 PM.
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one4all (07-24-2021)
07-23-2021, 03:24 PM
#840
Three Wheelin'
I recently purchased a '21 TLX Advance, and I'd like to walk through my decision-making process in case it helps others. Apologies in advance for the essay.
I knew I wanted a sedan, and I was shooting for something in the $35k-$45k range. That essentially ruled out the Type S, S4, M340i's of the world, and it narrowed my focus to higher trim options from mainstream brands and non-German luxury brands. I also knew I wanted something that was a good balance of sport and luxury without tipping too far in either direction. I initially eliminated a few options for the reasons noted below:
Chevrolet Malibu, Volkswagen Passat, Subaru Legacy, Nissan Altima --- elicited absolutely zero excitement
Volvo S60, Cadillac CT5 --- felt more luxury than sport
Alfa Romeo Giulia --- very poor reliability and a little too spicy for my Midwestern sensibilities
Mercedes-Benz C-Class --- getting refreshed for 2022, and the style was too gaudy for me
BMW 3 series --- probably the best in the segment, but pricey when you spec it out, and I have too many family and friends with G20 330i's
Infiniti Q50 --- very outdated interior and several reviews noted how terrible the steering was
Tesla Model 3 --- test drove one last year and I did not like the sterile interior, single-iPad interface, and the (often) insufferable owners
The remaining options where I focused my research were the TLX, Accord 2.0T, Camry V6, Sonata N-Line, K5 GT, Lexus IS300, Mazda 6 Turbo, Audi A4, Stinger, G70, and Volkswagen Arteon. I watched a ton of YouTube video reviews on each of these (FWIW, I found Savagegeese, Throttle House, and Alex on Autos to be the most knowledgeable and detailed reviewers). After watching reviews, I then eliminated:
Hyundai Sonata N-Line, Kia K5 GT --- 2.5T models really can't put the power down with a FWD open-diff setup, driving experience was usually described as "messy"
Mazda 6 Turbo --- takes itself too seriously, very dark and elegant and somewhat German-feeling
Lexus IS300 --- powertrains are ancient and my previous car was a naturally aspirated V6, so I was looking for something a bit different
Volkswagen Arteon --- it has some sporty looks, but it's really more of a luxury cruiser
Audi A4 --- for some reason, I never connected with it. Felt too old man-ish. Probably is behind the 3 series for overall best driving dynamics in the class, and you can get a well equipped one in the high 40s. The current B9 gen hasn't had too many issues yet, but previous generations have been a reliability nightmare
I hoped to set up test drives with the remaining 5, but had no luck finding a V6 Camry in my area, so ended up just testing the TLX, Accord 2.0T, Stinger 3.3T, and G70 2.0T and 3.3T. Going into the test drives, I was expecting the Stinger would be my choice, but obviously that was not the case. Here's how I would summarize those four:
Honda Accord 2.0T --- hilariously quick for a mild-mannered family sedan. There's plenty of quarter mile videos on YouTube where it easily beats the TLX and even edges a 330i. The car is light, and it definitely feels light when you drive it, which is good, but you also notice the road noise and the car doesn't feel as solid as the TLX. It still had some issues putting power down with the open diff; it was not hard to get the wheels to squeal. While it was quick, the chassis was not dynamic whatsoever. Interior is exactly what you'd expect from a Honda: very functional with good but sub-luxury quality. Overall it was hard to find faults in the Accord, but the driving experience wasn't as fun or interesting as the numbers would suggest.
Kia Stinger 3.3T --- found it to be really disappointing overall. The engine is fantastic; very smooth and refined, and the car was fast AF in a straight line. But he rest of the car was a letdown. The interior looks good in pictures but it's more Dodge Charger-level in person. The ride felt a lot more wallowy and unsettled than I was expecting. I've seen a lot of reviews describing the car as sharp and dynamic, but it definitely didn't feel that way to me unless I was going straight. I'm not the type to drive 90-100 on the highway, so I didn't feel like the car fit my driving style. I also read some of the Stinger forums and there are lots of complaints about squeaks and rattles. I know there are a lot of people that love this car, and I really expected to as well, but I came away feeling like it was overhyped.
Genesis G70 --- I did two test drives, a fully loaded 2.0T and a bare bones 3.3T. The 2.0T is not nearly as good as the K20C 2.0T from Honda/Acura. Like the Stinger, the 3.3T was great. The G70 felt way more solid and rigid compared to the Accord and Stinger. It's also dimensionally much shorter, so it felt significantly more agile. The downside is the backseats were almost dealbreaker bad in terms of space. I forgot to bring my car seat to test, but I don't think it would've fit with a front passenger. The ride was definitely on the firm side, but it wasn't unbearable. The exterior looked outstanding in person and was a perfect blend of luxury and sport, but the interior has more of that old man luxury feel. Other than the backseat space, the two things I didn't like were: 1) it's still trying too hard to be a cheaper BMW 2) the Genesis dealer was located in a random corner of a large Hyundai dealership. The salesperson wasn't very knowledgeable about the G70, and I didn't get the vibe that they really knew how to service performance sedans. I also worried a little about parts availability due to being a new brand that's not selling well yet. Overall, the car was good and it would've been a tough choice between TLX and G70 if not for the dealer setup.
Acura TLX --- The body rigidity and the chassis are what make the car stand out relative to the others I test drove. You immediately feel how much more solid it feels compared to the Accord, which helps make it feel great around corners but also explains why it's slower in a straight line. The torque-vectoring SH-AWD is very noticeable. You can feel the outside rear wheel being overdriven and you get get on the gas earlier than other cars coming out of a corner. It felt more dynamic than the Stinger despite the big power deficit. The different drive modes also lead to very noticeable changes. The interior and exterior design are very unique and not trying to copy the Germans. Material quality was the best of the ones I test drove, but a notch below Germans/Volvo/etc. The two things I did not have an issue with, but others might would be: 1) it's quite a bit bigger than other compact sedans, so it might not be ideal if you live in a crowded city 2) it's not that fast in a straight line due to weight.
Hopefully this helps for any others that are looking at sedans in a similar price range. I still think the Germans are on top, but you will probably have to pay more up front and potentially down the road. IMO, the TLX stacks up really well with the Japanense/Korean options.
I knew I wanted a sedan, and I was shooting for something in the $35k-$45k range. That essentially ruled out the Type S, S4, M340i's of the world, and it narrowed my focus to higher trim options from mainstream brands and non-German luxury brands. I also knew I wanted something that was a good balance of sport and luxury without tipping too far in either direction. I initially eliminated a few options for the reasons noted below:
Chevrolet Malibu, Volkswagen Passat, Subaru Legacy, Nissan Altima --- elicited absolutely zero excitement
Volvo S60, Cadillac CT5 --- felt more luxury than sport
Alfa Romeo Giulia --- very poor reliability and a little too spicy for my Midwestern sensibilities
Mercedes-Benz C-Class --- getting refreshed for 2022, and the style was too gaudy for me
BMW 3 series --- probably the best in the segment, but pricey when you spec it out, and I have too many family and friends with G20 330i's
Infiniti Q50 --- very outdated interior and several reviews noted how terrible the steering was
Tesla Model 3 --- test drove one last year and I did not like the sterile interior, single-iPad interface, and the (often) insufferable owners
The remaining options where I focused my research were the TLX, Accord 2.0T, Camry V6, Sonata N-Line, K5 GT, Lexus IS300, Mazda 6 Turbo, Audi A4, Stinger, G70, and Volkswagen Arteon. I watched a ton of YouTube video reviews on each of these (FWIW, I found Savagegeese, Throttle House, and Alex on Autos to be the most knowledgeable and detailed reviewers). After watching reviews, I then eliminated:
Hyundai Sonata N-Line, Kia K5 GT --- 2.5T models really can't put the power down with a FWD open-diff setup, driving experience was usually described as "messy"
Mazda 6 Turbo --- takes itself too seriously, very dark and elegant and somewhat German-feeling
Lexus IS300 --- powertrains are ancient and my previous car was a naturally aspirated V6, so I was looking for something a bit different
Volkswagen Arteon --- it has some sporty looks, but it's really more of a luxury cruiser
Audi A4 --- for some reason, I never connected with it. Felt too old man-ish. Probably is behind the 3 series for overall best driving dynamics in the class, and you can get a well equipped one in the high 40s. The current B9 gen hasn't had too many issues yet, but previous generations have been a reliability nightmare
I hoped to set up test drives with the remaining 5, but had no luck finding a V6 Camry in my area, so ended up just testing the TLX, Accord 2.0T, Stinger 3.3T, and G70 2.0T and 3.3T. Going into the test drives, I was expecting the Stinger would be my choice, but obviously that was not the case. Here's how I would summarize those four:
Honda Accord 2.0T --- hilariously quick for a mild-mannered family sedan. There's plenty of quarter mile videos on YouTube where it easily beats the TLX and even edges a 330i. The car is light, and it definitely feels light when you drive it, which is good, but you also notice the road noise and the car doesn't feel as solid as the TLX. It still had some issues putting power down with the open diff; it was not hard to get the wheels to squeal. While it was quick, the chassis was not dynamic whatsoever. Interior is exactly what you'd expect from a Honda: very functional with good but sub-luxury quality. Overall it was hard to find faults in the Accord, but the driving experience wasn't as fun or interesting as the numbers would suggest.
Kia Stinger 3.3T --- found it to be really disappointing overall. The engine is fantastic; very smooth and refined, and the car was fast AF in a straight line. But he rest of the car was a letdown. The interior looks good in pictures but it's more Dodge Charger-level in person. The ride felt a lot more wallowy and unsettled than I was expecting. I've seen a lot of reviews describing the car as sharp and dynamic, but it definitely didn't feel that way to me unless I was going straight. I'm not the type to drive 90-100 on the highway, so I didn't feel like the car fit my driving style. I also read some of the Stinger forums and there are lots of complaints about squeaks and rattles. I know there are a lot of people that love this car, and I really expected to as well, but I came away feeling like it was overhyped.
Genesis G70 --- I did two test drives, a fully loaded 2.0T and a bare bones 3.3T. The 2.0T is not nearly as good as the K20C 2.0T from Honda/Acura. Like the Stinger, the 3.3T was great. The G70 felt way more solid and rigid compared to the Accord and Stinger. It's also dimensionally much shorter, so it felt significantly more agile. The downside is the backseats were almost dealbreaker bad in terms of space. I forgot to bring my car seat to test, but I don't think it would've fit with a front passenger. The ride was definitely on the firm side, but it wasn't unbearable. The exterior looked outstanding in person and was a perfect blend of luxury and sport, but the interior has more of that old man luxury feel. Other than the backseat space, the two things I didn't like were: 1) it's still trying too hard to be a cheaper BMW 2) the Genesis dealer was located in a random corner of a large Hyundai dealership. The salesperson wasn't very knowledgeable about the G70, and I didn't get the vibe that they really knew how to service performance sedans. I also worried a little about parts availability due to being a new brand that's not selling well yet. Overall, the car was good and it would've been a tough choice between TLX and G70 if not for the dealer setup.
Acura TLX --- The body rigidity and the chassis are what make the car stand out relative to the others I test drove. You immediately feel how much more solid it feels compared to the Accord, which helps make it feel great around corners but also explains why it's slower in a straight line. The torque-vectoring SH-AWD is very noticeable. You can feel the outside rear wheel being overdriven and you get get on the gas earlier than other cars coming out of a corner. It felt more dynamic than the Stinger despite the big power deficit. The different drive modes also lead to very noticeable changes. The interior and exterior design are very unique and not trying to copy the Germans. Material quality was the best of the ones I test drove, but a notch below Germans/Volvo/etc. The two things I did not have an issue with, but others might would be: 1) it's quite a bit bigger than other compact sedans, so it might not be ideal if you live in a crowded city 2) it's not that fast in a straight line due to weight.
Hopefully this helps for any others that are looking at sedans in a similar price range. I still think the Germans are on top, but you will probably have to pay more up front and potentially down the road. IMO, the TLX stacks up really well with the Japanense/Korean options.
I had planned to wait until the TLX-S and 2022 G70 were available. But for some practical reasons decided to go ahead and buy (lease)the 2021 G70 3.3 Sport. I am very happy with it, and I’m not even willing on saying “for the money” anymore. My last four cars were a 2017 540 M-Sport, 2015 and 2017 A7, and 2012 550 M-Sport,so I have plenty to compare my G70 to.
As to your negatives on the G70, how is “trying too hard to be a cheaper BMW” a bad thing? It’s a meaningless statement with no context. As to the old mans interior, fine. I’m 68. But the car magazines don’t seem to feel that way either. Maybe they are all old too!
Ive been a Honda/Acura fan since I literally had one of the first Accords in the U.S in 1976. By then I had already owned two Honda motorcycles also. And I own a 20018 Honda CBR1000RR now.We had a 2012 TL-SH-AWD and liked that car a lot. So I’m sure I would like the new TLX.
Last edited by jjsC5; 07-23-2021 at 03:27 PM.