Legend2TL

That's your opinion but Lexus to me is a luxury brand that also has performance oriented cars like the LFA (carbon fiber chassis with a V10 and rear transaxle), IS-F, heck they even made a Lexus LS 500 F Sport.
The movement toward sport for Audi, Lexus, and Mercedes Benz is well documented as well as BMW's movement toward more luxury.

At one time, BMW and MB were so confident of their respective markets they invited each other to their annual company picnics in the 1970's.
That all changed in the 90's when BMW with the 2G 7 series went toward more luxury, now it's all out competition with all those companies.

sombasol

if thats true then why did Acura sell 1952 Tlx’s in sept vs Lexus selling 1536 is’s? 22932 TLX’s from jan -Sept vs 20,160 for the Lexus? If 90% of people prefer the Lexus that math would a fair bit different.

If i ever start making up unsubstantiated blanket statements in an attempt to belittle the people who have purchased a vehicle that i have no interest in on a message board for fans of said vehicle, can everyone please remind me that there are other productive things i could be doing with my life? Thanks.

fiatlux

Conveniently ignoring the 34K ES's that got sold I see. Believe it or not these cars do get cross-shopped by normal buyers who aren't interested in how many G's their car pulls or how fast it gets from 0-60.

sombasol

yes conveniently when comparing the sales of the 2 vehicles being discussed, i somehow managed to completely forget to include the sales if a 3rd unrelated and previously undiscussed vehicle…

BEAR-AvHistory

Thing is they are not unrelated at all. A guy walks into a Lexus store with $40,000 to $55,000 to spend he has a lot more choices. Joey might not like an IS-XXX but really wants to spend his money on a RC350. Maybe the car Joey picked instead of the IS might do better in a vid but who knows.

Why do you want to penalize Lexus for having more cars to choose from than a IS-XXX? Its Acura's problem they have such a small product lineup, not Lexus's problem that they have a very broad product line.

Used to be the same nonsense back in 3G days when the TL was competitive performance wise with the Germans. On any given month the BMW 3 series would out sell the TL series. The whine went up you have to subtract the Coupes & Convertibles 3 series out of the number because Acura did not have any. Of course nobody knew that number because only a single number was posted for the 3's

The issue is Acura is pretty much a one car show in this price range TLX $37,500 to $53,100. With 2 lines TLX & TLX-S that come in 5 flavors.

Lexus in the same price range, $39,060 to about $55,250, has 4 lines ES, IS, RC, Hybrid. Those 4 lines have about 21 different flavors. You want to compare sales look at the sales for the whole group in the price range. Joey is not going to run to the Acura store because a specific model came up short in some YouTubers opinion.

Why you might ask, well because you totally misunderstood what the 90% was about. Non car guys. It did not represent that out of every 10 cars sold 9 would be a Lexus IS whatever and one TLX/TLX/S. It represented that 90% of the car buyers know nothing about how a car goes other than you put gas in it & push a button to start the thing under the hood.

You want to challenge the 90% which I will admit is a WAG, just start right here I what might be considered a car guy forum. A few guys that play resident engineer, one or two that have actually ever built a car, one or two that have actually run an Acura in a timed event & most of the rest who say they don't live their lives a 1/4 mile at at time & just want a good reliable car & good dealer service.

Most if any DIY modifications tend toward cosmetics. Even back when I was running the TL at the strip most TL car guy activity was Cars & Coffee & parking lot meets.



Can't help you here have no idea why you feel belittled, you did not write the review we are talking about. Did you read the comments after the video - how did you feel about them?$T
M
37,500

fiatlux

I'm pretty sure it was discussed. Go back and read more closely.

BEAR-AvHistory

Lexus web site listing their products

Lexus (experience amazing) SEDANS SUV COUPES HYBRIDS PERFORMANCE FUTURE,

Many product lines listed under each category. Under Performance they list RC-F $65,975 @ 471BHP, LC $93,050 @ 471BHP, LC HYBRID $97,510 @ 353BHP, LC Convertible $101,100 @ 471BHP

These are there specifically listed performance cars. Based on the numbers Lexus published along with the cars they can't compete with a 382BHP M340. These are excellent luxury GT cruisers & are in no way competing with the Germans in the performance arena.

The entire lineup is slower than an $60,000 M340. At the top end, not the unobtanium Carbon fiber LFA, but the $101,000 to start LC convertible @ 471BHP, . Compared against a peer priced $92,000 M4 convertible @ 503BHP its well off the pace. 0-60 4.4 vs 3.24 (3.08 1 ft rollout) 11.4 1/4 mile with a 1.67 60ft time.

sombasol

Bear it’s the entirety of your statement. You’re saying 90% of shoppers see Acura vs Lexus as Lexus being the obvious choice because its Lexus. Yet sales numbers for TLX vs IS dont add up to your statement. The direct competitors between these 2 companies are the IS and TLX, and the TLX sells more. Your statement is an incorrect analysis of what people should/would choose to do based on your own bias against Acura that sneaks its way in to the majority of posts you make.

ES median sales age is 67, it has a specific buyer. RC has 2 doors, it has a specific buyer. The fact that Acura doesnt offer a competitor to the ES or RC is as much a detriment to its sales as a benefit as no one comes in looking at those other models and switches to the TLX as well as switching out of it. Your assumption is that the IS is losing sales to the ES and RC ignores the fact that its also gaining sales from people chooseing the IS instead of the ES and RC. A large percentage of customers compare vehicles from different brands, and choose whats best for them. An Acura RDX or Toyota Rav4 could steal a TLX sale, it doesnt matter how you want to try and spin it, the TLX outsells the IS and they are direct competitors. You stated that its an obvious choice to choose a Lexus over an Acura, sales numbers dont agree with you, so your statement is incorrect and aimed at continuing to put down Acura, and by association it’s buyers as inferior. If you cant understand that then i don’t really know how else to explain it.

fiatlux

Are they direct competitors? Let’s be honest, a FWD TLX has more in common with the ES than the RWD IS. It would be interesting to see what the FWD/SH-AWD split is, but someone who buys a FWD TLX was likely never cross shopping against the IS to begin with.

There’s also plenty of other reasons people buy Acura over Lexus. Sportiness is one aspect, but let’s not beat around the bush: price is a huge aspect. Acura owners are in general more price sensitive than Lexus owners. Household income tends to be lower, and the ATP tends to be lower. Even among enthusiasts here, we often qualify any statement about Acura with “for the price”. It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price.

Legend2TL

All this rambling on conjecture, at the end of the day neither you or any other on this thread have any clue. It's just your opinion, not a fact.

BEAR-AvHistory

Median is a lovely word. All it means is just as many people under 67 as over 67 drive one. The an average ES buyers age is 61 years. Average age of Corvette buyers is also 61 years.

BMW's entire USA line looks like:

24 years old and younger: 1%
25 to 54 years of age: 40%
55 to 64 years of age: 29%
65 years old and older: 30%

The more expensive (better performing) the car the higher the age group it falls into.

You are trying to make the same claim as was made in the 3G time frame. Acura does not make a coupe or convertible so it does not count toward BMW sales. All you have done is swap BMW for Lexus to make the same argument. Its always follow the money. The competitive arena we are talking about is $40-$55. The Lexus product lines that fit that arena include the cars I listed.

Lexus themselves based on their choice of segmentation do not even list the IS/ES/RC as performance variants. They are just nice cars that in some cases also preform pretty well but with 302BHP maybe they should be tested against the 277BHP TLX.

My bias is not anti Acura its pro-performance. I am a car guy & my bias says the TLX/TLX-S is a great all-round family car that no longer has a great level of appeal to those who like me owned a TL when it did compete on both performance & price. Its good to look at & it performs adequately for to quote one of the big fan poster here "its intended use".

Just as an add-on these are the number Lexus cars priced in the TLX/TLX-S price range. Reason I included older years is because 2020/2021 are not valid to stand alone due to flu & parts shortages
TLX
Year sold
2014 19,127
2015 47,080
2016 37,156
2017 34,846
2018 30,468
2019 26,548
2020 21,785
2021 24,300

IS
2014 52,358
2015 46,430
2016 37,289
2017 26,482
2018 22,927
2019 14,920
2020 13,600
2021 20,519

ES
2014 72,508
2015 64,969
2016 58,299
2017 51,398
2018 48,482
2019 51,336
2020 43,292
2021 37,640

RC
Year sold
2014 1,922
2015 14,784
2016 11,165
2017 7,363
2018 3,358
2019 4,591
2020 3,808
2021 2,841

BEAR-AvHistory

Yeah I agree that the statement that appears here a lot:

"It’s the best performing in its class…for the price. It’s the best equipped in its class…for the price."

is certainly conjecture & just opinion, not a fact.

Performance = has lost every performance test its been in based on pure objectively measured performance metrics. All the other words written about the car or any car for that matter are just opinion.

Best equipped for a price. = Could be wrong but I think the Honda Accord has equipment not available in the TLX/TLX-S line at any price.

F23A4

From which source are you deriving this statement OR are you just making an assumption?

fiatlux

Lower ATP, and these cars when comparable equipped are cheaper than the Lexus counterparts.

A few years back I remember there was Acura training material available at http://acuralaunchtraining.com/ that included demographic information across their entire lineup. Unfortunately, it no longer looks to be up, but other than the RLX I remember the numbers being on the lower end of the segment.

CheeseyPoofs McNut

The funny thing about cars - really smart people tend not to throw away money on fancy cars unless they have FU money. You know - the old millionaire next door idea where the guy drives a 5 year old Accord. I used to work for a guy who was worth several million easy and he wore old flannel shirts while driving a plain Ford truck.

Legend2TL

Wrong, the Type-S beats the Lexus IS350 F Sport in most performance categories as well as better skidpad than C43 or S4.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-type-s-drive/
https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-amg/c43
https://www.caranddriver.com/audi/s4


Know your data before making blanket statements

Legend2TL

X1000, QFT. so much truth to that, lesson I learned from my dad about spending money and investing.

Tony Pac

100% true! Our old CFO used to make over $1M a year and he used to have an old Accord. He changed his accord for a Subaru Outback. I have seen this over and over and over again!

mike03a3

Yeah. Back when my daughter was show jumping horses I used to run into Jack Kent Cooke (former owner of the Redskins) at the saddlery. I was usually dressed in an old flannel shirt and driving a 20+ year old Ford station wagon.

I'm a car guy, always have been. But while I may spend money on "fancy" cars I tend to offset it by keeping them for very long times. I still have the Series 3 E-Type I bought new in 1974. My current daily driver is my '07 Type-S 6MT, which replaced a 1988 XJS V-12 Convertible. It will finally be replaced when the M550i arrives.

Kense

That's a broad assumption, there are people who just enjoy spending their money on certain things and not others. For some it may be cars for others it may be shoes for others it may be watches. Yes you'll occasionally run into the guy who is rich that wears the same T shirt every day but most of them buy fancy cars, big houses and blow money on crazy crap because they like it.

flatlandtlx

The problem for the TLX is that it occupies a very weird place. It's slightly bigger than its competition. Its base and mid range models are better performers than the competition's base models. A G70 2.0T isn't impressing anyone with its speed. The base Stinger is nothing to get excited about. An ES 250 is embarrassingly slow. The mid-level ES 350 is slightly slower than the TLX. Everyone talks about the TLX vs the fastest cars in the competition and ignore that the TLX is just a better, faster car than the entry level versions of the other guys.

Where the TLX falls off is at the upper end of the model range. The A-Spec is a nice looking car, but a poser when it comes to real performance. I have one and it's "fine" but I get all of the criticisms directed at the car. The Type S is better but still falls short of the top competition. If someone is buying the car for the overall balance of looks and performance, the TLX is great but from a straight performance perspective, the upper end of the TLX range is a fail.

BTW, your comment about the Accord is kind of laughable. Nobody sits in an Accord and thinks the interior is equivalent to an Acura, Lexus or any other higher end car. When compared to the actual competition, the TLX is well equipped for the price. Those cars that other people love to brag about typically run in the mid 50's in price where the TLX A-Spec SH-AWD is still available for $45k if you qualify for the Conquest rebate. You can get a base TLX for under $40k if you can find one.

The thing that I found is that some of the competition that is so valued is very, very hard to come by. I was interested in the Genesis G70 3.3T but there was only one available in my area and they wanted $54k and I was able to buy my TLX A-Spec SH-AWD for $40,500. Say what you want about value....but I got a great deal on my car and it was the color and features I wanted.

BEAR-AvHistory

Yeah well there is always a hall monitor to follow us with great input

However, according to Lexus the IS series is not in their performance series of cars. Looks like a middle ground series like the BMW 330. Expect the Type-S might even manage to get a win in a few categories over it. 2 out of 11 is not all that great but will admit even though C&D said the 500 had the wrong tires a category with is a category win.
TLX-S
60 mph: 4.9 sec
100 mph: 12.6 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.6 sec @ 103 mph
130 mph: 24.2 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 5.5 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 3.3 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 4.5 sec
Top Speed (C/D est): 155 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 165 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 359 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad: 0.96 g*

* Founding interesting the S did so well on the skid pad & so poorly on the road course. Guess it does much better in a steady state turn than in the normal transitions that take place on an actual on street or road course

C/D TEST RESULTS
IS 350
60 mph: 4.3 sec
100 mph: 10.4 sec
1/4-Mile: 12.8 sec @ 112 mph
130 mph: 17.5 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 4.7 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 3.0 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 3.3 sec
Top Speed (gov ltd): 149 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 159 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 320 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad: 0.89

BEAR-AvHistory

Cheesey, yeah millionaires drive around in Hondas & have pickup trucks. Its guaranteed that some live that way, then there is the rest of them of them. Easy way to see what is being driven by income is drive through lo, middle & high income areas, check out the traffic, cars in driveways. Drive through a few industrial & high tech zones & see what cars are in the reserved slots. That should cover your average millionaire pretty well

You want to save the gas just look at the number of high end cars sold annually. Expect most of the mega rich don't drive themselves & are driven in armored Mercedes & Suburban's with outrides in performance cars.

BTW being a millionaires ain't much of a big deal these days. Its currently estimated there are 12 million millionaire households in the US today. The US accounts for 41% of the global millionaires.

BEAR-AvHistory

And because they can.....they are not under the same financial constraints as the typical working person even those in middle or upper middle management.

BEAR-AvHistory

Typo
C/D TEST RESULTS
IS 350
Should say
C/D TEST RESULTS
IS 500

Legend2TL

Nope, just a engineer fact checking the resident hater making foolish blanket statements and making excuses
When I'm wrong, I "man up" and admit it.

Again yet another statement from you is sorta wrong, the IS F-Sport is listed under Lexus's website performance webpage under "Performance", then click on "F-Sport"


Oh, and a Type-S ties a M340i for skidpad as well at C&D (0.96) , just more disproving your "lost every performance test" statement even more

Legend2TL

At least you're learning your errors and manning up

Legend2TL

It's not really a broad assumption. the author of the famous book "The Millionaire Next Door" gets into the lifestyle, spending and investment habits of millionaires.
Doubt much has changed since it's mid-90's characterization of wealthy people that were surveyed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

Better to be a PAW than a UAW

leomio2.0

I'll attest to this in the RDX. This is where SH-AWD really shines. It's black magic the way the system works. It really hides the weight of the car. But, once you come back to reality and have to deal with actual physics, like braking under turn-in, SH-AWD isn't going to help you whatsoever. I've taken off-ramps at speed that required you to brake for a stop sign at the end and the car lost its composure surprisingly quickly once it can't rely on the SH-AWD system. I've take the same off ramp at speed in my previous CR-V (600lbs lighter) and I honestly think it handled it better.

And 100% agree on Acura being the winner of value. That's basically where its biggest advantage lies. It's also part of the reason we went with the RDX. We liked Honda (we've owned 4 between the two of us and loved them all), it was well priced, looked great and all ours were very reliable. I don't think I've regretted a car purchase more. To me, their quality has plummeted, or I'm more sensitive to this one since it has an Acura badge rather than a Honda one. Nah ... I literally can't remember my CR-V with nearly 270k miles with this many rattles. You know it's bad when I have a more relaxing drive taking my 20yr old American beater to work than a supposed premium car that's 2yrs old with 18k miles.

So, yea, value ... but that value comes with its compromises ... and at least to me and my own personal experience, it seems the cost-cutting impacted build quality substantially.

/dailyrant

Legend2TL

Our CEO (my boss's boss's boss) salary was also $1M-2M was in the mid 9 figure club and drove a Camry, invented the first practical EEPROM at Intel and founded two companies (Seeq and Atmel). Amazing physicist/engineer/entrepreneur, but was not into cars.

BEAR-AvHistory

WoW I am so impressed that I am now the resident hater, thank you so much .....your lead reads like a valley girl comment not something you would expect from the resident engineer.

BMW also sells a 4 cylinder 330i under the label M-Sport. They further define the performance versions as M340 & M3. Thing is Lexus like BMW defines in its headings what it is selling as performance cars RC/LC not mid level cars with various flavors & performance levels. You really trying to sell an ES F-Sport as a performance variant, seriously?

Lexus Car Lines

BMW 3 series Car Lines

Speaking of the M340, notice how BMW also separates the performance variant M340 from the 4 cylinder M-Sport on it web site.

Check out the TH 2021 Acura TLX TypeS//Priced to Fight video in this thread for comments at starting at 11:05 which include the IS-300 & BMW 330M-Sport. After the comments its just another drag race loss to Audi. Think TH's take is the same as the "haters" have been saying. Good car, nice looking, well equipped, but its not the performance car Acura is claiming it to be.

Maybe its just me but the Type S sort of gets crushed in this comparison. Think about this less horsepower, less performance, with less gas mileage. Will take the tie in the 300ft circle, but the Type-S lost the performance test big time without a win in any category.

BTW I might suggest to win a road test you need to out point the other car at least thats how the magazines do their comparison tests. Picking nits here & there will not get the job done.

Apply some of that engineering skill to the numbers below & tell us who won the test.? Category wins or ties in BOLD

TLX-S
60 mph: 4.9 sec
100 mph: 12.6 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.6 sec @ 103 mph
130 mph: 24.2 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 5.5 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 3.3 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 4.5 sec
Top Speed (C/D est): 155 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 165 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 359 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad: 0.96 g TIE *

C/D FUEL ECONOMY
Observed: 19 mpg

EPA FUEL ECONOMY
Combined/City/Highway: 21/19/24 mpg

* Found it interesting the S did so well on the skid pad & so poorly on the TH road course.

C/D TEST RESULTS:
M340
60 mph: 3.8 sec
100 mph: 9.1 sec
1/4 mile: 12.3 sec @ 115 mph
130 mph: 16.1 sec
150 mph: 24.2 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.7 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.1 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.6 sec
Top speed (governor limited): 156 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 155 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.96 g TIE

C/D FUEL ECONOMY
Observed: 27 mpg
75-mph highway driving: 33 mpg

EPA FUEL ECONOMY
Combined/City/Highway: 25/22/30 mpg

Legend2TL

Then you should learn your lesson not to make statements like "lost every performance test" unless you know your facts resulting in spending less time writing lengthy retorts.

mike03a3

Not sure how I screwed that up

Legend2TL

FWIW, my best friend's wife is a relative to David Tepper, who was a casual family gathering/event with them. Dave noticed a hole in his shirt's elbow and made light of it and laughed it off. My friend who's met Tepper a handful of times, said he's a nice guy and very down to earth for someone worth $~16B.

No worries, that's what I thought you mean as well

Kense

I live in the Bay Area surrounded by Silicon Valley, and all those Tech Millionaires may dress like crap but they are driving Lambo's and Ferrari's and live in Mansions. My wifes best friend works for Apple, is single and lives in a 5 Bedroom house in Atherton by her self and drives a Taycan.

Legend2TL

The ones you notice, we don't know but I'm guessing many (majority?) don't drive Lambo's and Ferrari's. I know alot people at a variety of tech companies and startups, many drive nice vehicles but many drive some rather ordinary cars too.
YMMV

BEAR-AvHistory

The Global Wealth Report says that the total number of millionaires in the US is 20.27 million. The United States also added 2,251,000 new millionaires from 2019 to 2020 alone,

Its a different economy today from that of the mid 1990's when some studies were done. The demographics of who the 1995 millionaire is very different that that of who the 2021 millionaires are. No one knows the real number of millionaires who drive cheap cars, but it seems here many people seem to all know one that fits their narrative. Wonder if any of these guys know any millionaires that drive a car MSRP's over $90,000

BTW when you look at the wealthy is not A car but a number of cars. Not unusual to see a F-150 in a driveway with other bucks up cars & SUV's. Ofcourse the F-150 probably went for over $80,000.

norsairius

The core case for the TLX vs. its competition is what it offers for the money, at least that's how I look at it. Yes, the TLX loses out in a number of objective performance tests. However, it also costs less.

Since BMW is being discussed so much, I did a quick look at some stock in my area. I'll be comparing MSRP because it's really the best apples-to-apples comparison that can be done on pricing as I'm sure there's some out there that can negotiate a hell of a deal or some incentives may come into play, etc., etc. Anyway, for the sake of simplicity: We're not factoring in a negotiated price or incentives. Just looking at MSRP.

TLX SH-AWD w/Tech Package - this is what I picked up on lease about 2 months ago. MSRP (including destination): ~$45k
Local inventory for a BMW 330i xDrive with about as close to the same features I could find: $51k.

That's a $6k difference, ~13% more than the TLX. The TLX is slower, it's heavier, and it's admittedly not as dynamic. It also gets worse gas mileage. It will not perform as well on a track. However, for everyday driving and the occasional blast on a curvy road or brisk acceleration on an on-ramp, I think it gets the job done really well. It's also very comfortable. Really, with better tires, I think the TLX would be about perfect for me right now.

Anyway, the question many who are cross shopping these cars will end up asking themselves is whether the BMW worth it at $6k more. For some it might be, and that's great. For others, it might not. That price difference though is what I think many are getting at when they say the Acura offers better overall value. The performance may be *close enough* for driving on public roads for many. Traffic and traffic lights are the great equalizer on such roads anyway.

The pricing gap between a TLX-S and a BMW M340i xDrive is even greater at ~$8k when loaded with close to equivalent features (again, doing my best to compare local inventory). Same question will probably be asked: Is the price difference worth it? Personally, anything that can hit 0-60 in ~5s is plenty for me on public roads. Anything much faster, while very fun, just isn't going to be used nearly as often in a safe manner for the roads and traffic I usually drive. Despite my TLX being slower than that, it still feels fast enough for occasional fun. Would I turn down a faster car if it were given to me? No. Do I want to pay for that performance now? Also no.

So again, yes, the competitors objectively perform better. However, they are also more expensive. Anyone pursuing pure performance without as much concern for cost should *not* go for Acura. However, someone trying find more balance between cost vs. performance vs. features? I think Acura makes makes a stronger case there.

I've had a 2009 BMW 328i xDrive Coupe and a 2011 BMW 335i xDrive Sedan. I look back at my time with those cars fondly (mostly). My younger brother also has an M235i xDrive which I've enjoyed driving immensely. BMW, quite simply, makes cars that drive better than anything else I've owned. Including my current TLX. So while I am a fan of BMWs and really appreciate the cars they build, I've become quite a fan of Acura lately and appreciate the cars they build too.

I also personally give Acura the edge on styling, especially when compared to those bucktoothed BMWs (the rest of the BMW lineup looks really good to me though, except maybe the massive-grilled 7-series and X7). I think the 5-series might be the best-looking sedan in their lineup right now.

Anyway, just my $0.02. Sorry, brevity isn't a strong suit of mine.

Kense

Have you ever been here? The majority have nice cars and houses. You may be talking about Old rich people I don't know. The Millionaires and Billionaires out here are mostly younger people who like buying nice things. There's over 200,000 Millionaires and Billionaires out here and probably another million or so people making over $300,000. Their beater commute car may be a Porche Cayenne GTS and their weekend cars are McLaren's or something I see it all the time .

BEAR-AvHistory

Too many are looking though the lens of only one good car in the family. Eye opener my be just reading the C8 forum. Corvette the plumbers supercar. Interesting how many guys there have the C8 as their rainy day car that lets them keep the McLaren dry. The new Z06 5.5 DOHC 32 valve V8 will kick off around $90,000. Porsche pretty much fills the gap above the Stingray to the bottom range exotic but typically $100,000 is a good starting point for one.