Xpditor

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. It is not shared by auto journalists or most members of this website.

I can speak as an owner of a BMW 3-series, a recent Honda Accord V-6 Coupe, and a current Mercedes-Benz CLK350 Coupe. I am intimately familiar with all of them. I do all my own maintenance.

I have previously owned two Maximas.

The Acura TL is a sport-luxury sedan. It is also referred to as an "entry level luxury" sedan. In dimensions, the 3G TL was almost identical to a 5-series BMW. In testing in Road & Track, the TL beat out the BMW (with a sport package) in nearly every category including performance and handling (April 2004). When I bought my TL, I comparison shopped BMW, Infinit G35, M-B C class. I was moving UP from the Maxima level significantly.

The TL was miles better and more luxurious than a C Class M-B (which we M-B owners don't really consider to be a "real" M-B) Likewise, the level of luxury and performance was a big jump up from Maxima.

My conclusion was that, because of all the standard luxury items combined with performance, build quality, looks, and Honda/Acura reputation at a PRICE that could not be touched by M-B or BMW (equipped similarly), the TL was the hands-down best value and had the best interior aesthetics and quality. I didn't consider the Audi A4 to even be in the same category and didn't give it a second glance.

I loved my Honda Accord V-6 EX-L (loaded) but it didn't hold a candle to the quality and luxury of the TL.

After participating in these threads for over 6 years, I don't find my experience to be unique.

I alternate between driving my TL and my M-B daily. I love both cars. The M-B has one or two bells/whistles that the TL doesn't have (it is 4 years newer) and it oozes quality. It is a bit more sporty to drive as it is a pillar-less coupe with a 7-speed AT but the performance is about the same as the TL. Both are still a thrill to drive.

Interestingly, the TL has quite a bit of bells/whistles that the M-B DOESN'T have: touch screen Navi, voice command, Bluetooth, among others.

In everyday driving, I can feel no difference between FWD and RWD.

That's just my real world experience and observation. The car mags seem to agree as to competition by virtue of the models that they always compare the TL to in road tests.

Pete2010

People have mentioned this before... But I still don't know what you're they're talking about. The only plastic things are the inside door pockets, the small cubby near the driver right knee and the door handle, everything else is the same composite rubber as in the 07 TL-S and the metal trim. Maybe the FWD or non-tech has a plasticy interior?

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Cars get compared all the time that aren't really competitors and/or aren't really cross shopped by the masses

Car and Driver compared a Hummer H3 V8 with a Jeep Wrangler. Consumer Reports compared an MDX to an Audi Allroad. One could go on.

It's interesting to compare cars that aren't competitors and often people do cross shop cars.

But I DO have lengthy experience with luxury car buyers and no, the average German car shopper is not comparing their car or the new cars to any Acura, any one at all.
You're an enthusiast and furthermore, a rarer case. I did say FEW, after all. That means some do.

You don't find it unique and participation on an automobile enthusiast site is your example? Sorry, no.

And the last part is a no as well, explained earlier.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Soooo much silver.



It's also so black on the top half of the dash and center stack no matter which interior you get, which also looks a bit low rent to me....PERSONALLY. I should have clarified that it doesn't really have worse materials (PERHAPS, but I'm not convinced), but it APPEARS to.

As opposed to the warmer, more organic 3G. Perhaps I'm biased?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAErsU9VtxM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O166ObFUTGc

docboy

I'm not sure I agree with your statement, but I (along with many on the 4G forum) compared the TL with the 3 Series, A4, and C-Class. I cross shopped ad nauseum the 4G TL against the 328/335xi, A4, S4, G37x, C-Class, and Lexus sedans.

In fact, I traded in a 2009 Lexus IS 250 AWD at 4000 miles because the dam car was so uncomfortable I couldn't drive it after 4 weeks without suffering from right knee/hip/leg pain. My current view of Lexus is not high compared to that of Acura.

Multiple "leading" car magazines, FWIW, have compared the TL against BMW and Audi. See this article, for example.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/co...door-firepower

Whether you believe the comparison to be legit or now, well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But the track numbers from the above article speaks for itself.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

But you can "compare" and get similar or better numbers without them being "competitors". The Genesis is as quick as these cars too but it's hardly a competitor.

The TL lacks the finesse and the smaller size to be as truly tossable. The Cadillac CTS has the same problem. Like the TL it gets compared but as a true, sincere competitor, it doesn't quite work; that's why Cadillac is issuing a real competitor in the ATS.

Again, what people on this enthusiast site compare is not even close to representative of the actual buying public, and most people here know and agree with that.

Lexus makes some really nice, comfortable cars. Never driven an IS, but I've driven all the other sedans.

Xpditor

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make as this last post is a little confusing. I suppose that we may be using different criteria for comparison and thus coming up with different conclusions.

I am sure, however, that you are locked into your position, which you view as the only correct one and that the rest of the world is just wrong. I suppose it boils down to "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".

I suggest that you are no more qualified to make these sweeping empirical statements than any other member. I value each opinion and assume they are sincere. Including yours...

Do I detect some "badge envy", a phenomenon with which I, as a luxury German car-owner, am all too familiar? Do you assign points for status or snob appeal to certain marques? Would these be among your criteria for comparison?

I gave you a reference (R&T April 2004) by which you can directly compare a 3G TL with a BMW 530i with a Sport Package. Set your prejudices aside and look at the objective numbers. Compare materials, build quality, performance, handling (tossability), size, warranty, styling... and then tell me that they are not competitive. I will agree with one thing: they are not competitive in prices. The TL will come in about $5,000 to $8,000 less costly similarly equipped.

Interestingly, both cars had a small amount of under steer when pressed.

I will give you this: I (me) prefer the subjective "feel" of both my BMW and my M-B over the TL by a small margin. Each has it's own driving "feel" which is quite distinctive. The BMW is light and responsive, solid, hooked-up. The M-B, more leaden, yacht-like, confidence inspiring, smooth and the TL somewhere in the middle.

Not all my friends are as knowledgeable about autos as I. That doesn't mean they aren't interested in the details. They usually ask me to do the research and then tell them the differences between models. Once told, they understand those differences (such a number of gears/paddle-shifters/HP, etc). They are just too busy (or lazy) to do all the research. In my experience, that is mister average car buyer at this price point in the market. And, yes, the badge does carry weight for most of them. That said, they relate "Acura" with quality and value and they do not hesitate to park next to the German cars at the country club and hold their heads high.

DecTL09

Amen...brotha

compewterbleu

Umm, I guess you are the only one who works or lives around regular people. I hear daily how Acura is a luxury car brand and competes with Audi and BMW. I hear this from woman who don't even know where their oil dipstick is to a few women who have rebuilt their own muscle cars.

I'm with Xpditor, you have some sort of issues going on here. Especially with 4G owners.


I've read the other post of yours and others responding. It appears everyone else sees the quality, improvements, and such but you have blinders on.

Flip-flopping, you say there are improvements then you say there aren't.

Frankly your statement is not "plain and simple". It's actually rather debatable.

Debatable is your stance, that's for sure.

compewterbleu

I concur. Whether I drive my TL to the hood or to the country club I often hear how Acura is an upscale vehicle. Be it a jet mechanic, waitress, valet, a date, one of the engineers here on site, or doctor...one doctor in particular asked if he could check it out. He he also popped the hood and trunk then asked me which salesperson I dealt with at my local dealership.

A few friends of mine who just bought Honda's keep telling one day they'll be able to move up to the big boy leagues of an Acura. The brand has an identity with the "average" person.

A former engineer co-worker of mine who is also is a former MIG pilot from Germany and loves his country's BMW's always says that my Acura is definitely well put together and a wonderful design, but that he just can't break away from his German born BMW.

Pete2010

I just have to ask, and this isn't an attack, but have you sat in and drove the 4G SH w/ Tech Package? I came from the 07 and the interior is a huge upgrade for me. But I don't like wood trim and tan interior, so that 3G you showed the video is to me (my personal view). But I can understand that if you are a wood trim fan, then you won't like the stainless steel interior. Personally, I would never buy a car with wood trim, they look too much like an old man car.

Really? One thing that impressed me the most (and one thing mentioned here by other 4G owners), is that this car drives like one half it's size(SH-AWD). I think you may need to find a dealer that will let you take one on your own for 15min or so and let you run it through its paces.

Again - this is not a personal attack, but when you make the comments like the above (subjective thoughts aside), it's difficult for us as owners to understand you, because we're driving this car everyday and to us, it's the opposite of what you say. I can't speak for the FWD model, but the SH model(especially the MT version) goes where you point it, every day I drive this car I am more and more impressed how it handles for it's size. It handles MUCH better than the 3G TL-S and that car was quite a bit smaller.

compewterbleu

*Clap,clap, clap*

boe_d

I know what you mean - it seems to be about bling - even keeping it all black would have been preferable to me. This interior would probably look good to a person looking to purchase at TL with a bright yellow exterior and with very dark tinted windows. The cup holder cover makes me think cheap - like toy crayon/pencil boxes from years long long ago.

compewterbleu

Call me Crazy La' Crae then...nice to hear such flattering intelligent and biased adult view from you

I wonder how the TL SH-AWD would look with a Lambo yellow paint job, with a flat black grille, tail part, and rims to match. *drooling*

The TL is for those who...want a TL.

smarty666

To be honest, despite not liking some styling choices on the 4G TL, the more important thing that annoys the living crap out of me about Acura with the 4G TL, is how they are beginning to move away from their luxury reputation for value and having the most things standard!

Back when I got each of my 3G TL's, absolutely everything came standard on the Base TL. The only decisions you had to make was what color combo you wanted and if you wanted nav/rear camera or no nav/rear camera!

Now, with the 4G TL, Acura has begun moving away from this all stuff standard/better value philosophy and gone down the path Lexus, BMW, and MB do. You get less and less standard, and have to pay a lot more money for expensive option packages to get others features, that used to be standard, in order to have them and get some others things, like the nav system, which some people don't want or need.

Examples,

now you have to spend almost $3600 some dollars on a tech package to get the higher quality perforated leather, the kick-ass ELS surround sound audio system which before 2009 came standard!

To me, this is the more disappointing shift on the 4G TL with Acura. I suspect that when the 5G TL comes out, this pattern will get even worse with less and less standard, and more expensive option packages to get stuff that used to be standard!

Another thing I'd like to see Acura do, which Lexus, Nissan, and others have done, is make the rear camera an option extra. Personally, I don't use a navigation system enough to warrant spending 3600 or more dollars on one, but I use the rear camera often. It would be nice to be able to get that without having to get a navigation system.

Xpditor

I am not a fan of all the brushed aluminum that seems to be the fad now with many manufacturers. As for me, I prefer the warmness of wood. Fake in my TL but real in the M-B.

The cup holder cover on my M-B is almost identical to the one pictured in the TL. I have never thought of it as cheap.

compewterbleu

Not necessarily so, but it's all about cost. Do you answer any of the Acura surveys? I think they do listen. More features mean more money. Then you tab inflation on to things...and whoa. I recall wanting a Supra back in 1986 the cost were something like 25K and I was like dream on, then the '93's hit and it was like the game changed and the cost soared. There are numerous factors.

With all that said who really knows, the 5G could be the ultimate mix that 80-90% of Acura TL buyers like. When you look at how they are packaged they still offer more at a better value than a number of automakers.

compewterbleu

The cup holder is light years better than what was in the 2001 CL that's for sure. Brushed aluminum...a trend for this time frame. Wood, it depends how it is done. I am still a fan of the old Porsche's function over frills. Wood to me is best served in a luxo-cruiser. Fake wood to me just not my thing...there was some in my 01 CL, dealt with it.

smarty666

Thats a complete and utter excuse your giving me. For the specific examples I gave, these were not new/added features. Now your getting less for your money. If perforated leather and the ELS audio system came standard pre-2009 and now you have to pay 3600 bucks for that, your getting less for your money. Now your paying extra for those two things that came standard before.

If you think about it, before 2009, the tech package (which basically just gave you the navigation system, voice recognition, and rearview camera) was around 2000-2400 bucks. Which means now, 4G TL owners, are paying extra for peforated leather and the ELS system well over 1000 bucks for those two things, which used to be standard.

I agree, Acura is still better than some companies when it comes to value and what you get in the car for the price, but more and more companies have either now matched Acura or begun passing them in that regard.

For instance, a fully loaded Nissan Maxima, at around $39,400 comes with a power rear sunshade, heated steering wheel, heated and cooled front seats, auto dimming side mirror, dual panel moonroof, rear audio/climate controls, power tilt/telscoping steering column, rear bucket seats, rear auto up/down windows, and 19 inch wheels, . A fully loaded TL at just around 42k comes with none of those luxury features.

Now of course, the loaded TL is coming with a slightly larger engine, AWD, and a more complicated/nicer nav system but none of those luxury features that are in a less expensive car. Now, does that extra money warrant that vehicles, which lacks all those luxury features in that car? That is the real question.

I'm just using this as an example. At least, those features are what drew me away from the new TL and into the Maxima and I haven't regretted that decision.

Listen, I'm not trying to come on here, as others are, and trying to trash the 4G TL. I think I've been pretty diplomatic and given my constructed criticism about the 4G TL. Its just that, opinion. Others, such as yourself, absolutely love it, and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm happy your enjoying your purchase!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Badge envy? That doesn't even make sense. I envy the Germans? Yes I do, but if I'm being negatively envious why would I be supporting them over Acura? Or maybe I'm envious of Acura? As an owner that again makes no sense.

If your friends are holding their head high with their Acuras compared to the 3-Series, A4, C-Class types, then fine. If they're holding their heads high next to a 5-Series, A6, or E-Class, then I must laugh at them.

I guess I could say anything then as long as I pull up in my TL "with my head held up high". Only I don't, because I know what the better product is and I don't need to make excuses for buying the inferior car. I bought it for the room, value, and style, not because I thought it was better than a 3-Series. That'd make me delusional.

compewterbleu

Not excuses just an opinion. I seriously considered the Max's but for me the heated wheel, I live in the south, and a few other features just didn't add up to the performance of the TL SH-AWD. This is an apple vs oranges thing...Honda/Acura Renault/Nissan...I prefer Honda/Acura.
I could sit here and give a ton of constructive criticisms on the Max, I just felt was less of an enthusiast vehicle and more of a widget for the masses. I'm glad you are enjoying your car and I truling enjoying my automobile. Auto manufacturing can be a world of style vs substance, like a NE Patriots or Pittsburgh Steeler's compared to say a Cleveland Browns or Detroit Lions thing.

compewterbleu

Wow, what's with the bashing of someones choice and calling it inferior, let's not get personal wife dude. Relax, woooosha. Drive your vehicle and be happy, delusional, or whatever mood is your choice. "You know what the better product is" we inferior beings are just trying to find a little piece of sunshine in this world.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Uh, that really has nothing to do with what I was saying.



No, actually go back and read. The only time I say that is when I hear the 4G owners bitch about "3G owners".

Think of it as me returning the favor so those that say that can see how pathetic they sound.

Nope, time to read again. There are others on here that don't feel the improvements. Is it subjective though? Yes.

In fact who was it, Petec or someone said, and I quote, "People have mentioned that before". So your "everyone else" plea is a lie or bullshit you spewed. I'll leave you to decide.

Can a car have improvements in some areas and go backwards in others? Yes. Don't even begin to say otherwise.

Funny, you don't say that about the "TL is better, plain and simple statement". Maybe yet again you'll see how utterly stupid some of the things people say on here sound....only because I immediately took the opposite opinion and showed you.

What is debatable? The packaging? The performance? The features? No those are facts.

Middle of the road? Why yes.

smarty666

Yeah, I could see how the heated wheel wouldn't be of use to you where you live and that a perfectly valid explanation. Being I live in NJ, from Nov-March, even into the beginning of April, I use it quite often so its been worth every penny. Nice not having to use glove's from Dec-March when getting in the car in the cold earlier morning when driving the car!

Anyway, best of luck on your TL. The interior in the 4G is pretty nice.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Wife what?

How am I getting personal when responding to comments that I "have a problem"?

I'm being no more personal and in fact have NOTHING against the average TL buyer. In fact I hold them seemingly to higher standards than 4G owners on here. Just days ago we debated how in tune with the vehicles the buyers are. I was the one saying they were the smarter, more educated buyer on their choices. Others said no.

The TL is not a bad car. I'm simply debating whether or not it's a step forward for Acura, much as I do with the new TSX.

I think you'd agree that I'd be a fool to pull up to a high end German car in my Acura and hold my head up high.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Yes I have, many times. I wanted to like it. I wanted to buy it. I just couldn't.

I love metal AND wood and I think many would agree the TL interior I showed you of the 3G is indeed "warmer" and more colorful than even the brown 4G interiors.

Though I really like the doors on the new model, the way to the leather and trim flows.

My other beef was with the center navigation dial thing. Maybe it's me.

I've read it before. Personally I don't see it, but then again when the S-Class was new everyone said it drives like a midsize car. I've driven one and ah...hahahahahahahaha. No it doesn't. Same for the TL. Drive well? Oh yes. Like a compact? No.

I've driven the new TL three times in fact, two AWDs and one FWD. One of the AWDs would a fairly extended drive; don't remember but it was far longer than 15 minutes even.

The things I say are not just my opinion. Usually I'm actually just repeated what others are saying on here as well.

I have not driven the manual though. Perhaps that one has the magic I'm missing?

compewterbleu

There you go he who so self righteous and all knowing. What's not debatable is your inability to allow others opinions co-exist with yours and not go 2nd grade on folks. I take solace in knowing that there are people who BS for the hell of it and those who believe the crap they spew. Thanks for proving my little science experiment correct. How can you tell someone what to say or not to say? Who made you king?

smarty666

Just as a side note to all this bickering, I've find it interesting how this has turned in to a BMW/MB/Audi vs Acura debate. Just a quick short story about something I observed over the last 10 years of luxury ownership and leasing. You can take it or leave it since this is just the experience of one person, and others might have had a different experience.

I have had a Cadillac, Mercedes, Infiniti, and Acura over the years. During the years I had my Mercedes, I had maybe one or two people actually come up and comment to me how much they liked the car. I saw very few people actually staring at my Mercedes as well. When anybody asked me what kind of car I drove and I told them Mercedes they either said, "Oh very nice, or oh okay."

During the time I've had my Acura's and Infiniti's, I had the complete opposite experience. I have had at least 2-3 dozen people total over the years comment to me how much they like the vehicles and constant stare's on the road. When asked what kind of vehicles I drive and tell them Infiniti and Acura, I hear, "Oh aren't we lucky, or wow, they are some nice vehicles!"

I think the problem is this, BMW, MB, and Lexus are synonymous with pure top-level luxury and if you ask almost anyone, even dumb dumb no knowledge about cars, people know they are top level luxury companies. I think those 3 are pretty matter of fact companies and hence why people never said much to me about the Mercedes. They say to themselves, "oh you drive a Mercedes" and that is the end of it. Also, BMW, MB, and Lexus are pretty conservative in their styling (most of the time) and don't have to do too much when redoning their models and people will come and buy from them because of the name alone.

Audi, Acura, and Infiniti on the other hand do bolder, (at least Acura is doing that with styling now) then the others and they seem to stand out more than a subsquent (BMW, MB, Lexus). I think, Audi, Acura, and Infiniti not selling as much as those big three name plates makes for less of them on the road, thus, when people see them, they say, "hey thats pretty snazzy looking" or for the people who don't off the bat realize they are luxury companies say, "wow, thats pretty nice, I should look into them"

I'm not trying to put down BMW, MB, or Lexus. All 3 are fine companies and do what they do best. I just think that when people hear those 3 names, they already know they are top luxury companies and so there is not much more to say. Personally, I have never been a big BMW fan, but I just saw the new 5-Series last weekend and it was really nice looking.

This is solely observations I've made after having different luxury companies in my possession. Others might have had completely different experiences so you have to take what I say with a grain of salt. I can't speak for anyone else but my own personal experience.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I don't know. I'd like to debate my inabilities.

Anyway, I'm always the one talking about subjectivity. This usually comes from the 4G owners saying the 3G owners are closed minded or the 3Gs saying the 4G is ugly.

But you know, I don't allow other opinions. Speaking of this, I'd like to take time out of my post to call bullshit on whoever said the TL has only as much understeer as a 530i. What a crock. I've driven the 535i with more weight over the front and still wasn' the same. Damn my narrow minded, well, mind.

Lastly, was that past of your post your way of saying you DON'T think a car can improve on things and go the opposite direction? Because if it is....

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Well you know, if I like German cars more I suffer automatically from badge envy....somehow.

I remember when my TL was new (04). That car got a lot of attention. But I've never owned anything German so I can't say it is or isn't what they experience.

compewterbleu

I wouldn't, you worked hard for the money and may have made a better financial decision not based on the status quota. I know many, many, BMW owners who truly are lost in the fog about their purchase where I find Acura buyers more knowledgeable about there purchase. The new TSX is the new "higher" seller for Acura. I pull up next to Bentley's and I'm feeling my ride because I worked haaard for the dollars to get it. And it's a solid purchase. The TL is a step in another direction...the 5G will be more clarifying for some and affirmation for others.

compewterbleu

I lived in the Pocono area and if I had to do it all again I'd buy an SUV...MDX perhaps.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I guess I agree with that. It's a step in another direction, not a step forward from the 3G. They're taking the TL in a different direction.

As for the BMW and Acura buyer thing, I'd agree with that as well. People buy German automatically just assuming they're better. Which they usually ARE, but that's missing the point.

compewterbleu

BMW and MB have been at the luxury game for years...they have that lead. They really picked up their game when the Japanese ventured into their domain. The one wildcard in this game, a few years ago I would of thought it would be Mazda, is Hyundai...they are pressing Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti as well as Chevy and Ford with one car line....

smarty666

Well that is certainly true, I still have some problems with the Hyundai comparisons to the other luxury companies. Yes, they have the Genesis and now the Equus coming which are both luxury vehicles, but they also sell vehicles that are below 20k bucks in price, which Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, Audi, or Mercedes do not do in this country. Until Hyundai actually becomes a full fledged luxury company or establish a luxury division its going to be hard making those comparisons. Though I will admit, I used to think Hyundai was crap and didn't even give them a second thought until the Genesis first came out. Thats what raised an eyebrow for me with Hyundai. Personally, while I like the outside of the Genesis, I was not too crazy about the interior styling in some areas (yes, I know highly sujective) but that is what I felt personally.

Don't get me wrong, from the outside the Genesis is very luxurious looking. To this day, I still mistake it constantly for a BMW, Lexus and MB from a distance. That is both good and bad. Good in the sense that people are looking at your vehicle and then do a spit take when they see the H on the back trunk lid and makes them want to look into the Hyundai brand even more, but can also be bad in the sense, you couldn't come up with a completely original design of your own that people constantly mistake it for a BMW, MB, or Lexus. Meaning, that they had to have copied some design issues from all these other manufacturers in order to get an eye catching product.

Pete2010

Could be. I drove the auto version in a test drive for a short while, don't really remember enough to compare, but I know they removed weight, tweaked the steering (For the better), and some other items involving the suspension. If you know how to drive MT I'd recommend taking one for a spin (if you can find one). I personally would be curious to hear your take on the MT vs the 2 AWD vs FWD ones you've driven. I just haven't driven the auto ones enough to know their "feel"

They all turn into a BMW/MB/Audi vs Acura debate...

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Hyundai should make a Genesis based crossover. I'm sure that's already in the pipeline.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I guess if it's that much of a change I might. I probably will down the road.

Personally I think the FWD is worthless. The AWD's suspension and entire feel makes the whole car wake up much more. It really makes the car there. The FWD feels like a cushy, quieter Accord (which it is). Performance is the same story, despite the similar numbers.

If you want a sport sedan of the midsize type, buy the AWD (which it looks like most here do). If you want the FWD, buy the Maxima, Lacrosse, Genesis, or Taurus.

compewterbleu

I beg to differ on them being generally better. Audi for one has had major quality issues...it steered me away fro the CC and it just didn't have the POW! I was hoping it have. And they still are to stiff on the styling.

MB, they worked Chrysler like a garden tool to figure out how to built a smaller car. You should be good at the price you are charging.

BMW, folks love the badge, I've seen folks buy a BMW who couldn't afford it simply for the swag of it. They even settled for next to nearly no features just to have the badge, crazy. Their quality hasn't always been pristine either. like MB for the price they need to be good. and they've been at the game longer. Better quality, from what I've read, not.

Pete2010

The Maxima is a hot looking car... I was considering it against my TL, but a sport package with no 6MT?