2011 new generation TL
#121
Not intending to start a debate on the number of gears required per a given car design. Just saying it's a factor many buyers consider when comparison shopping similar designs.
#122
The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Do a lot of people skip on the TL based on its gear count? Probably not. However, savvier buyers wanting to get their money's worth (who doesn't) will be looking at many things that the TL lacks compared to many other sedans in the general price range, and to many, having a transmission with less gears than the other isn't a deal breaker but a slight disappointment.
I would expect this applies mostly to make shoppers, primarily ones of the AWD model that are a bit more enthusiastic with vehicles.
Do a lot of people skip on the TL based on its gear count? Probably not. However, savvier buyers wanting to get their money's worth (who doesn't) will be looking at many things that the TL lacks compared to many other sedans in the general price range, and to many, having a transmission with less gears than the other isn't a deal breaker but a slight disappointment.
I would expect this applies mostly to make shoppers, primarily ones of the AWD model that are a bit more enthusiastic with vehicles.
#123
Drifting
Assuming your question was directed towards my post, sure they do, especially so in the luxury market. To completely ignore that would be a huge marketing mistake.
Not intending to start a debate on the number of gears required per a given car design. Just saying it's a factor many buyers consider when comparison shopping similar designs.
Not intending to start a debate on the number of gears required per a given car design. Just saying it's a factor many buyers consider when comparison shopping similar designs.
6 isn't always a better number of gears. The Infiniti's have 6 and can't seem to make up their mind on which one to be in. BMW has 7 and sounds like they've got it figured out.
The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Do a lot of people skip on the TL based on its gear count? Probably not. However, savvier buyers wanting to get their money's worth (who doesn't) will be looking at many things that the TL lacks compared to many other sedans in the general price range, and to many, having a transmission with less gears than the other isn't a deal breaker but a slight disappointment.
I would expect this applies mostly to make shoppers, primarily ones of the AWD model that are a bit more enthusiastic with vehicles.
Do a lot of people skip on the TL based on its gear count? Probably not. However, savvier buyers wanting to get their money's worth (who doesn't) will be looking at many things that the TL lacks compared to many other sedans in the general price range, and to many, having a transmission with less gears than the other isn't a deal breaker but a slight disappointment.
I would expect this applies mostly to make shoppers, primarily ones of the AWD model that are a bit more enthusiastic with vehicles.
#124
To the average car buyer, the car is simply a utility. It gets them from point A to point B. You really give the car buying public way too much credit. The average buyer of a luxury car is probably going to be older, will have more money. When they get a car, most often it's because of the nameplate (BMW,MB) and nothing else.
6 isn't always a better number of gears. The Infiniti's have 6 and can't seem to make up their mind on which one to be in. BMW has 7 and sounds like they've got it figured out.
Again - we're thinking most car buyers are anything like us. My wife is that average car buyer, and she can't tell the difference between my factory 18's and my RJ 20's. Her car gets her to work and home. Most people don't care. Most people don't like the look of the TL, plus its a much more expensive TL, which reduces the pool of buyers.
6 isn't always a better number of gears. The Infiniti's have 6 and can't seem to make up their mind on which one to be in. BMW has 7 and sounds like they've got it figured out.
Again - we're thinking most car buyers are anything like us. My wife is that average car buyer, and she can't tell the difference between my factory 18's and my RJ 20's. Her car gets her to work and home. Most people don't care. Most people don't like the look of the TL, plus its a much more expensive TL, which reduces the pool of buyers.
I don't like to nitpick but just wanted to correct that the Infiniti's have 7spd autos and not 6spds but your correct in that their are some problems with them in hunting for the right gear and the computer. Supposedly, Infiniti is aware of the issues and are suppose to be engineering a fix that won't be introduced till the next gen G so hopefully that will correct it!
#125
Drifting
I don't like to nitpick but just wanted to correct that the Infiniti's have 7spd autos and not 6spds but your correct in that their are some problems with them in hunting for the right gear and the computer. Supposedly, Infiniti is aware of the issues and are suppose to be engineering a fix that won't be introduced till the next gen G so hopefully that will correct it!
Will be cool to see a fix for that, I would definitely take that for a test drive.
#126
Again - we're thinking most car buyers are anything like us. My wife is that average car buyer, and she can't tell the difference between my factory 18's and my RJ 20's. Her car gets her to work and home. Most people don't care. Most people don't like the look of the TL, plus its a much more expensive TL, which reduces the pool of buyers.
What I did was outline that the TL's 5-speed is just one thing on a list of things that the car lacks compared to the competition, which is likely IS losing sales as a result of.
#127
Drifting
No, you're mistaken. I'm NOT in the camp that thinks the TL's sagging sales are from a 5-speed automatic and a goofy grille alone.
What I did was outline that the TL's 5-speed is just one thing on a list of things that the car lacks compared to the competition, which is likely IS losing sales as a result of.
What I did was outline that the TL's 5-speed is just one thing on a list of things that the car lacks compared to the competition, which is likely IS losing sales as a result of.
The average car buyer wouldn't even visit this forum, let alone post on it. The large segment of the population looks for features, but not like we do as enthusiasts. Savvy/Knowledgeable car buyers like yourself (and myself) will look @ the 5AT and say that's a disappointment. But the large segment of the population would not even know that their automatic car has more than a couple gears, Reverse and Drive.
I would love to get the opinion from some of the car salesmen on here on what people ask for when looking for a new car.
#128
I'm a former 2G owner (2002 Type S), and still kick myself for trading that car in after only 2 or 3 years.
After test driving and sitting in the 4G (which I love, btw), I think one issue is the car is very masculine. The meaty steering wheel, the number of buttons, etc. Whereas I've noticed a lot of women driving earlier TL's, I have a feeling the new ones don't really attract many female buyers.
Any feedback? Personally, I don't consider this a bad thing, but Acura might...
After test driving and sitting in the 4G (which I love, btw), I think one issue is the car is very masculine. The meaty steering wheel, the number of buttons, etc. Whereas I've noticed a lot of women driving earlier TL's, I have a feeling the new ones don't really attract many female buyers.
Any feedback? Personally, I don't consider this a bad thing, but Acura might...
#129
While I don't want to get into a back and forth of why the TL sales are bad.. that horse is long dead. And I wasn't referring to yourself, I am referring to the average car buyer.
The average car buyer wouldn't even visit this forum, let alone post on it. The large segment of the population looks for features, but not like we do as enthusiasts. Savvy/Knowledgeable car buyers like yourself (and myself) will look @ the 5AT and say that's a disappointment. But the large segment of the population would not even know that their automatic car has more than a couple gears, Reverse and Drive.
I would love to get the opinion from some of the car salesmen on here on what people ask for when looking for a new car.
The average car buyer wouldn't even visit this forum, let alone post on it. The large segment of the population looks for features, but not like we do as enthusiasts. Savvy/Knowledgeable car buyers like yourself (and myself) will look @ the 5AT and say that's a disappointment. But the large segment of the population would not even know that their automatic car has more than a couple gears, Reverse and Drive.
I would love to get the opinion from some of the car salesmen on here on what people ask for when looking for a new car.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34578441...siness-autos//
No people do not glance at the spec sheet and go "OMG it's a five speed. Screw this." I don't know what to say to you anymore to get you to understand that is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT what I'm saying. They ARE, however, noticing missing features and actually a lot of people are interested in transmission at this level, if not on a make or break level.
#130
Drifting
Especially in this economy, people want to get the most that they can for their money. In fact there are article such as this one floating all over.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34578441...siness-autos//
No people do not glance at the spec sheet and go "OMG it's a five speed. Screw this." I don't know what to say to you anymore to get you to understand that is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT what I'm saying. They ARE, however, noticing missing features and actually a lot of people are interested in transmission at this level, if not on a make or break level.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34578441...siness-autos//
No people do not glance at the spec sheet and go "OMG it's a five speed. Screw this." I don't know what to say to you anymore to get you to understand that is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT what I'm saying. They ARE, however, noticing missing features and actually a lot of people are interested in transmission at this level, if not on a make or break level.
#131
The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Do a lot of people skip on the TL based on its gear count? Probably not. However, savvier buyers wanting to get their money's worth (who doesn't) will be looking at many things that the TL lacks compared to many other sedans in the general price range, and to many, having a transmission with less gears than the other isn't a deal breaker but a slight disappointment.
I would expect this applies mostly to make shoppers, primarily ones of the AWD model that are a bit more enthusiastic with vehicles.
Do a lot of people skip on the TL based on its gear count? Probably not. However, savvier buyers wanting to get their money's worth (who doesn't) will be looking at many things that the TL lacks compared to many other sedans in the general price range, and to many, having a transmission with less gears than the other isn't a deal breaker but a slight disappointment.
I would expect this applies mostly to make shoppers, primarily ones of the AWD model that are a bit more enthusiastic with vehicles.
#132
Trolling Canuckistan
You're confusing understanding and agreement. I totally understand what you're saying. And IMHO, I don't agree. I think you give the average car buyer too much credit. But this is where I'd love some input from people who actually sell cars. Because I'm curious to see what people are asking about when they buy their cars.
#133
petec2010 is spot on in my opinion. I would even go a step further. It's not only the average car buyer that doesn't care how many gears are in a transmission, it is the VAST MAJORITY of car buyers. The uninformed buyers, average buyers, informed buyers, and even many enthusiasts. Car salesmen reading this thread are laughing their ass off.
There are a number of people on this board that are hardcore enthusiasts, that have the 5AT, and they chose it above other cars that are being used as examples in this discussion.
I'm a tech guy and like to think that people care about how fast the processor is in their computer, or how powerful their GPU is, but the fact of the matter is, the vast majority buy their computers based on budget and aesthetics alone. It's no different with cars.
The few people MyCarIsntInMyWifesName reference, that "aren't buying some cars because they are noticing missing features" don't amount to a hill of beans in terms of total units sold.
There are a number of people on this board that are hardcore enthusiasts, that have the 5AT, and they chose it above other cars that are being used as examples in this discussion.
I'm a tech guy and like to think that people care about how fast the processor is in their computer, or how powerful their GPU is, but the fact of the matter is, the vast majority buy their computers based on budget and aesthetics alone. It's no different with cars.
The few people MyCarIsntInMyWifesName reference, that "aren't buying some cars because they are noticing missing features" don't amount to a hill of beans in terms of total units sold.
#134
Suzuka Master
Assuming your question was directed towards my post, sure they do, especially so in the luxury market. To completely ignore that would be a huge marketing mistake.
Not intending to start a debate on the number of gears required per a given car design. Just saying it's a factor many buyers consider when comparison shopping similar designs.
Not intending to start a debate on the number of gears required per a given car design. Just saying it's a factor many buyers consider when comparison shopping similar designs.
#135
You're confusing understanding and agreement. I totally understand what you're saying. And IMHO, I don't agree. I think you give the average car buyer too much credit. But this is where I'd love some input from people who actually sell cars. Because I'm curious to see what people are asking about when they buy their cars.
Wrong.
#136
#137
Drifting
And that is? No offense, but I don't know what job you could hold that would give you that kind of information about such a broad range of car buyers. You'd have to interview large groups of car buyers or car salesment to get significant stats on that topic.
But whatever, I get it. Everyone wants to be correct on the internet. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just giving my opinion.
No kidding. Most people I've seen in my area driving 4G's are much older (probably over 50). I bet maybe less than 10% of those people cared about many of the features in the car. They just want a car.
But whatever, I get it. Everyone wants to be correct on the internet. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just giving my opinion.
No kidding. Most people I've seen in my area driving 4G's are much older (probably over 50). I bet maybe less than 10% of those people cared about many of the features in the car. They just want a car.
Last edited by Pete2010; 06-21-2010 at 10:52 PM.
#138
However, in my trade (which I will not delve into in hopes of preserving my anonymity) my clients usually have the "new" cars. Obviously I go through more than one client a day. LOL
I will tell you this much- especially since the crash of 2008, people are more informed about their big purchasing decisions when I ask them (which isn't required of my job but many respond positively when I comment on their new vehicle).
More importantly, the buyers of these 40 thousand dollar cars are better educated, smarter, and richer (obviously) than the joe buying a 25 thousand dollar Accord. These people are more in tune with their decisions and what I have personally found is EXACTLY what Ford claimed with their EcoBoost Taurus, MKT, and MKS buyers. The ones that buy the EcoBoost are smarter, younger, richer, and better educated, and not just academics, but their purchase decisions. THIS is where I find that NO, a transmission doesn't kill if for them, but it DOES go along with the multiple things these TLs are lacking nowadays.
#139
And that is? No offense, but I don't know what job you could hold that would give you that kind of information about such a broad range of car buyers. You'd have to interview large groups of car buyers or car salesment to get significant stats on that topic.
But whatever, I get it. Everyone wants to be correct on the internet. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just giving my opinion.
But whatever, I get it. Everyone wants to be correct on the internet. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just giving my opinion.
I also don't "interview" car buyers.
#140
Burning Brakes
Do a lot of people skip on the TL based on its gear count? Probably not. However, savvier buyers wanting to get their money's worth (who doesn't) will be looking at many things that the TL lacks compared to many other sedans in the general price range, and to many, having a transmission with less gears than the other isn't a deal breaker but a slight disappointment.
That being said I was considering a new car very seriously and what I would have liked to convince me to trade in my old TL for a new one -
1. A nicer looking car than my old TL (I don't feel the new TL is even as good looking as my old TL although all the models up to 2009 were much better looking IMO.
2. I don't need more acceleration than my old TL but about 25% better MPG would have been nice. I think they should have made something with similar pickup to my 2001 TL with much much better MPG and then a type S with a hefty engine for enthusiasts looking for lots of HP but not quite so concerned about MPG. Surely in a decade since my car was released they could improve the gas mileage. I remember a VERY long time ago in my youth, Honda was obsessed with fuel efficiency. I bought my first new car, a Honda Civic, after many crappy used Ford Escorts. With a stick that sucker could accelerate VERY nicely even though it had a tiny little engine and got great gas mileage. It was a wonderful car; such a vast improvement over the escort and only about 15% more expensive.
3. A chilled cup holder - might seem like a little thing but I would have liked that for long drives to Vegas.
4. A touch screen for the GPS - I'm not insinuating they should eliminate the knob - just have a touch screen AND the knob for those of us who prefer quicker input like my old GPS has on my 2001 TL.
5. A quieter ride/better sound insulation. The new TL is much better than my old TL but not nearly as quiet as the Lexus. I do prefer the "feel" of the TL for driving over the Lexus but I spend an absurd amount of time on the road and I have to take a lot of business calls in my car and don't want to have to speak in a strained voice over the roar of the road.
6. A slightly slimmer steering wheel. I'm a guy and have pretty long fingers but I'm not the only one driving my car and so I'd prefer the old steering wheel of my TL over the new one. I do prefer the all leather steering wheel of the Acura over the partial wood wheel on the Lexus.
I list these things not to put down the TL, but these are the things that would have gotten me to put down a ton of money to get me to replace my 2001 TL and weren't in the new TL. I just didn't feel there was much of an upgrade from my TL to the new TL. I'm sure there are things that many here would say are a big improvement over my TL and I'm not saying my TL is better than the current model - I'm just saying for $30,000 after trade in, I can't say that I'd have a car that impressed me. I much prefered the Lexus 350 which is more expensive. In the end though the Lexus only had a few features on this list and still didn't achieve all of them.
I admit, I forgot to check but I remember how I always felt slighted with all my cars because they came with a doughnut instead of a real spare. The dealers always say you can't fit a full spare time yet somehow every car I've owned I got odd sized wheel wells since I've always been able to fit a full spare in my tire well. Hopefully they are done with that nonsense and are spending the extra $3 (the cost difference for car manufacturer between a doughnut and a real tire) and giving us real spare tires. I never understand when you talk about spending tons of money on a car why they cheap out - particularly on a luxury car on the spare.
Last edited by boe_d; 06-22-2010 at 01:30 AM.
#142
#144
Burning Brakes
...what I would have liked to convince me to trade in my old TL for a new one -
1. A nicer looking car than my old TL.
2. I don't need more acceleration than my old TL but about 25% better MPG would have been nice. I think they should have made something with similar pickup to my 2001 TL with much much better MPG and then a type S with a hefty engine for enthusiasts looking for lots of HP but not quite so concerned about MPG.
3. A chilled cup holder - might seem like a little thing but I would have liked that for long drives to Vegas.
4. A touch screen for the GPS - I'm not insinuating they should eliminate the knob - just have a touch screen AND the knob for those of us who prefer quicker input like my old GPS has on my 2001 TL.
5. A quieter ride/better sound insulation. The new TL is much better than my old TL but not nearly as quiet as the Lexus. I do prefer the "feel" of the TL for driving over the Lexus but I spend an absurd amount of time on the road and I have to take a lot of business calls in my car and don't want to have to speak in a strained voice over the roar of the road.
6. A slightly slimmer steering wheel. I'm a guy and have pretty long fingers but I'm not the only one driving my car and so I'd prefer the old steering wheel of my TL over the new one. I do prefer the all leather steering wheel of the Acura over the partial wood wheel on the Lexus.
I list these things not to put down the TL, but these are the things that would have gotten me to put down a ton of money to get me to replace my 2001 TL and weren't in the new TL.
1. A nicer looking car than my old TL.
2. I don't need more acceleration than my old TL but about 25% better MPG would have been nice. I think they should have made something with similar pickup to my 2001 TL with much much better MPG and then a type S with a hefty engine for enthusiasts looking for lots of HP but not quite so concerned about MPG.
3. A chilled cup holder - might seem like a little thing but I would have liked that for long drives to Vegas.
4. A touch screen for the GPS - I'm not insinuating they should eliminate the knob - just have a touch screen AND the knob for those of us who prefer quicker input like my old GPS has on my 2001 TL.
5. A quieter ride/better sound insulation. The new TL is much better than my old TL but not nearly as quiet as the Lexus. I do prefer the "feel" of the TL for driving over the Lexus but I spend an absurd amount of time on the road and I have to take a lot of business calls in my car and don't want to have to speak in a strained voice over the roar of the road.
6. A slightly slimmer steering wheel. I'm a guy and have pretty long fingers but I'm not the only one driving my car and so I'd prefer the old steering wheel of my TL over the new one. I do prefer the all leather steering wheel of the Acura over the partial wood wheel on the Lexus.
I list these things not to put down the TL, but these are the things that would have gotten me to put down a ton of money to get me to replace my 2001 TL and weren't in the new TL.
A. GPS
Pros Voice activated GPS and BT
Cons No more touch screen - no reason it couldn't have both a knob and touchscreen
B. Radio
Pros - better than my BOSE POS in my 2001 TL
Cons - speakers could be better. I custom installed my old radio on my Civic (1992) with decent speakers and the were clearer and fuller than the ones in the current 2010 TL.
C. Noise
Pros - better than my 2001 TL
Cons - still not nearly as good as the Lexus
Sadly those were the only things I could think of that were improvements that mattered to me over the 2001 TL.
One of the biggest negatives for me was looks - I would have been more likely to buy a new acura if it had the looks of the 2008 than the 2010.
The other biggest negative for me was fuel efficiency. I might have ignored the looks of the new acura if it got really good gas mileage but mediocre gas mileage and ugly design kept me from appreciating the 2010 Acura. I didn't expect it to have all 6 things I really wanted but looks and MPG were pretty significant. Things like it not having a cooled cup holder I can live without but it would be nice.
#145
Drifting
#146
Drifting
The 4G TL is not for you, that's all
I don't know if I'm the average car buyer or not. My current TL is a 2001 model and I'm very happy with that purchase - it runs nearly as well as the day I bought it and only has about 90,000 miles on it although that is LA traffic so it probably has as many hours on the road as most people here although it is in stop an go traffic on the highway and surface street. I probably won't be the average reader here as many people here seem to be far more interested in putting about a 400 HP engine in a TL than gas mileage (I'm not putting that down - just saying I'm more concerned about MPG although I don't want to go below the performance of my 2001 TL in terms of acceleration).
That being said I was considering a new car very seriously and what I would have liked to convince me to trade in my old TL for a new one -
1. A nicer looking car than my old TL (I don't feel the new TL is even as good looking as my old TL although all the models up to 2009 were much better looking IMO.
2. I don't need more acceleration than my old TL but about 25% better MPG would have been nice. I think they should have made something with similar pickup to my 2001 TL with much much better MPG and then a type S with a hefty engine for enthusiasts looking for lots of HP but not quite so concerned about MPG. Surely in a decade since my car was released they could improve the gas mileage. I remember a VERY long time ago in my youth, Honda was obsessed with fuel efficiency. I bought my first new car, a Honda Civic, after many crappy used Ford Escorts. With a stick that sucker could accelerate VERY nicely even though it had a tiny little engine and got great gas mileage. It was a wonderful car; such a vast improvement over the escort and only about 15% more expensive.
3. A chilled cup holder - might seem like a little thing but I would have liked that for long drives to Vegas.
4. A touch screen for the GPS - I'm not insinuating they should eliminate the knob - just have a touch screen AND the knob for those of us who prefer quicker input like my old GPS has on my 2001 TL.
5. A quieter ride/better sound insulation. The new TL is much better than my old TL but not nearly as quiet as the Lexus. I do prefer the "feel" of the TL for driving over the Lexus but I spend an absurd amount of time on the road and I have to take a lot of business calls in my car and don't want to have to speak in a strained voice over the roar of the road.
6. A slightly slimmer steering wheel. I'm a guy and have pretty long fingers but I'm not the only one driving my car and so I'd prefer the old steering wheel of my TL over the new one. I do prefer the all leather steering wheel of the Acura over the partial wood wheel on the Lexus.
I list these things not to put down the TL, but these are the things that would have gotten me to put down a ton of money to get me to replace my 2001 TL and weren't in the new TL. I just didn't feel there was much of an upgrade from my TL to the new TL. I'm sure there are things that many here would say are a big improvement over my TL and I'm not saying my TL is better than the current model - I'm just saying for $30,000 after trade in, I can't say that I'd have a car that impressed me. I much prefered the Lexus 350 which is more expensive. In the end though the Lexus only had a few features on this list and still didn't achieve all of them.
I admit, I forgot to check but I remember how I always felt slighted with all my cars because they came with a doughnut instead of a real spare. The dealers always say you can't fit a full spare time yet somehow every car I've owned I got odd sized wheel wells since I've always been able to fit a full spare in my tire well. Hopefully they are done with that nonsense and are spending the extra $3 (the cost difference for car manufacturer between a doughnut and a real tire) and giving us real spare tires. I never understand when you talk about spending tons of money on a car why they cheap out - particularly on a luxury car on the spare.
That being said I was considering a new car very seriously and what I would have liked to convince me to trade in my old TL for a new one -
1. A nicer looking car than my old TL (I don't feel the new TL is even as good looking as my old TL although all the models up to 2009 were much better looking IMO.
2. I don't need more acceleration than my old TL but about 25% better MPG would have been nice. I think they should have made something with similar pickup to my 2001 TL with much much better MPG and then a type S with a hefty engine for enthusiasts looking for lots of HP but not quite so concerned about MPG. Surely in a decade since my car was released they could improve the gas mileage. I remember a VERY long time ago in my youth, Honda was obsessed with fuel efficiency. I bought my first new car, a Honda Civic, after many crappy used Ford Escorts. With a stick that sucker could accelerate VERY nicely even though it had a tiny little engine and got great gas mileage. It was a wonderful car; such a vast improvement over the escort and only about 15% more expensive.
3. A chilled cup holder - might seem like a little thing but I would have liked that for long drives to Vegas.
4. A touch screen for the GPS - I'm not insinuating they should eliminate the knob - just have a touch screen AND the knob for those of us who prefer quicker input like my old GPS has on my 2001 TL.
5. A quieter ride/better sound insulation. The new TL is much better than my old TL but not nearly as quiet as the Lexus. I do prefer the "feel" of the TL for driving over the Lexus but I spend an absurd amount of time on the road and I have to take a lot of business calls in my car and don't want to have to speak in a strained voice over the roar of the road.
6. A slightly slimmer steering wheel. I'm a guy and have pretty long fingers but I'm not the only one driving my car and so I'd prefer the old steering wheel of my TL over the new one. I do prefer the all leather steering wheel of the Acura over the partial wood wheel on the Lexus.
I list these things not to put down the TL, but these are the things that would have gotten me to put down a ton of money to get me to replace my 2001 TL and weren't in the new TL. I just didn't feel there was much of an upgrade from my TL to the new TL. I'm sure there are things that many here would say are a big improvement over my TL and I'm not saying my TL is better than the current model - I'm just saying for $30,000 after trade in, I can't say that I'd have a car that impressed me. I much prefered the Lexus 350 which is more expensive. In the end though the Lexus only had a few features on this list and still didn't achieve all of them.
I admit, I forgot to check but I remember how I always felt slighted with all my cars because they came with a doughnut instead of a real spare. The dealers always say you can't fit a full spare time yet somehow every car I've owned I got odd sized wheel wells since I've always been able to fit a full spare in my tire well. Hopefully they are done with that nonsense and are spending the extra $3 (the cost difference for car manufacturer between a doughnut and a real tire) and giving us real spare tires. I never understand when you talk about spending tons of money on a car why they cheap out - particularly on a luxury car on the spare.
#147
Burning Brakes
I realize because of my fast acceleration and quick stops in LA my MPG will be much lower than peak efficiency but I'm really getting bad gas mileage as it is so a better engine would help. I don't expect to save money by getting a more fuel efficent car but not going to the gas station would be wonderful and yes, I'm sure gas prices will rise very shortly and by large amounts so who knows once gas is $6.00 a gallon which I expect in the next few years, it might help offset the initial purchase down the road and I keep my cars for a very long time but again - saving money on car vs. gas isn't the reason I want a more fuel efficient car.
Last edited by Xpditor; 06-23-2010 at 08:01 PM.
#148
Racer
I tried to think of what improvements the current TL has over my 2001 TL that I cared about
A. GPS
Pros Voice activated GPS and BT
Cons No more touch screen - no reason it couldn't have both a knob and touchscreen
B. Radio
Pros - better than my BOSE POS in my 2001 TL
Cons - speakers could be better. I custom installed my old radio on my Civic (1992) with decent speakers and the were clearer and fuller than the ones in the current 2010 TL.
C. Noise
Pros - better than my 2001 TL
Cons - still not nearly as good as the Lexus
Sadly those were the only things I could think of that were improvements that mattered to me over the 2001 TL.
One of the biggest negatives for me was looks - I would have been more likely to buy a new acura if it had the looks of the 2008 than the 2010.
The other biggest negative for me was fuel efficiency. I might have ignored the looks of the new acura if it got really good gas mileage but mediocre gas mileage and ugly design kept me from appreciating the 2010 Acura. I didn't expect it to have all 6 things I really wanted but looks and MPG were pretty significant. Things like it not having a cooled cup holder I can live without but it would be nice.
A. GPS
Pros Voice activated GPS and BT
Cons No more touch screen - no reason it couldn't have both a knob and touchscreen
B. Radio
Pros - better than my BOSE POS in my 2001 TL
Cons - speakers could be better. I custom installed my old radio on my Civic (1992) with decent speakers and the were clearer and fuller than the ones in the current 2010 TL.
C. Noise
Pros - better than my 2001 TL
Cons - still not nearly as good as the Lexus
Sadly those were the only things I could think of that were improvements that mattered to me over the 2001 TL.
One of the biggest negatives for me was looks - I would have been more likely to buy a new acura if it had the looks of the 2008 than the 2010.
The other biggest negative for me was fuel efficiency. I might have ignored the looks of the new acura if it got really good gas mileage but mediocre gas mileage and ugly design kept me from appreciating the 2010 Acura. I didn't expect it to have all 6 things I really wanted but looks and MPG were pretty significant. Things like it not having a cooled cup holder I can live without but it would be nice.
I've had both cars and think the 2010 is probably the best of the TL series cars I've ever had. They are different cars and can't be compared.
#149
Trolling Canuckistan
Porsches don't come with run flats but they do supply you with a lovely can of Fix-a-flat. I believe it's the same deal with certain Audis. Mercedes and BMW sticks you with the run flat tires although Acura did the same on one version of the RL which had the run flats and no spare.
#150
Burning Brakes
There are many more changes between the 01 and the 10 with having a trustworthy transmission being at the front of the line. The Tech package is great.
I've had both cars and think the 2010 is probably the best of the TL series cars I've ever had. They are different cars and can't be compared.
I've had both cars and think the 2010 is probably the best of the TL series cars I've ever had. They are different cars and can't be compared.
I'm not saying people who like the 2010 TL are fools, other than the looks, it is a pretty nice car. What I am saying is that in a decade since my car was purchased, I would have hoped Acura had moved forward much more than they had in style, fuel efficiency etc. I don't expect them to change everything every year but an entire generation of tl has passed since I bought my car - the generation after my car, they improved the looks, the GPS had voice control, the radio was no longer BOSE (thank goodness) and to some degree the road noise insulation was improved. This new generation is a step back in terms of looks in my opinion, the road noise isn't that improved over the previous generation and the fuel efficiency really hasn't changed since my car. So while they have made some improvements since my 2001 TL, surely they've had time to make greater improvements. I'm guessing the model coming later this year won't be a big change but I'd be stunned if they don't improve the looks of the 2012 model and hopefully make some progress towards the other items on my list. My 2001 TL will hold me over until Acura improves a number of things or until Lexus improves their fuel efficiency - either one will be fine with me.
Last edited by boe_d; 06-23-2010 at 02:13 PM.
#151
Trolling Canuckistan
^^^
I'll only comment on your fuel consumption concerns. You say they haven't improved the fuel economy since you 2001 TL but without a doubt they have increased HP. If they have increased HP but haven't hurt fuel economy, then they actually have done something fairly remarkable especially if you are comparing a 225 hp TL (rated under SAE standard J607 which by the current SAE standard J1349 would be closer to a 215 hp) to a 280 hp TL (which rated under the old standard would have hit 290-295 hp).
Along with the fact that the way hp is rated has changed and systematically lowered HP ratings since your 2001 TL was rated, the EPA has also changed the fuel economy testing which has lowered advertised fuel economy across the board as well. So not only is it harder for manufacturers to make hp, it is harder for then to achieve high fuel economy ratings as well. All the while Acura has maintained fuel economy while increasing hp.
I'm not saying your wrong about fuel economy but you definitely aren't telling the whole story. To keep fuel economy the same while adding 65 hp is quite a feat IMO.
I'll only comment on your fuel consumption concerns. You say they haven't improved the fuel economy since you 2001 TL but without a doubt they have increased HP. If they have increased HP but haven't hurt fuel economy, then they actually have done something fairly remarkable especially if you are comparing a 225 hp TL (rated under SAE standard J607 which by the current SAE standard J1349 would be closer to a 215 hp) to a 280 hp TL (which rated under the old standard would have hit 290-295 hp).
Along with the fact that the way hp is rated has changed and systematically lowered HP ratings since your 2001 TL was rated, the EPA has also changed the fuel economy testing which has lowered advertised fuel economy across the board as well. So not only is it harder for manufacturers to make hp, it is harder for then to achieve high fuel economy ratings as well. All the while Acura has maintained fuel economy while increasing hp.
I'm not saying your wrong about fuel economy but you definitely aren't telling the whole story. To keep fuel economy the same while adding 65 hp is quite a feat IMO.
#152
Burning Brakes
You are quite correct and follow what you are saying. I should have been much more specific. I wish they had improved the MPG at least 25% over my existing 2001 TL without decreasing performance. My 2001 is quite peppy but the mpg isn't great. I really think they have two markets - the type S who want a sportier engine and the others like me who aren't in a lot of high speed pursuits who can live with the old acceleration but would like much better fuel economy.
Last edited by Xpditor; 06-24-2010 at 11:16 PM.
#153
Black Label is 100% correct for those who may not know. As stated, new standards came into effect for both SAE and EPA but that does not mean cars lost power or fuel economy, it simply means they revised the way these numbers were obtained and had to change the ratings.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16734.shtml
In the link you find a good estimate of what the old EPA rating for the 2001 TL (for example) would look like now under the new ratings. As we can see the city and highway average is in line with the current FWD model TL and as we know it has a 3.5L and offers nearly 70 HP more instead.
If and when Acura adds the 6AT to the TL model it should not only improve real world gas mileage over all previous generations and models, instead of only keeping them consistent, but it should further distance the power and performance gap as well.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16734.shtml
In the link you find a good estimate of what the old EPA rating for the 2001 TL (for example) would look like now under the new ratings. As we can see the city and highway average is in line with the current FWD model TL and as we know it has a 3.5L and offers nearly 70 HP more instead.
If and when Acura adds the 6AT to the TL model it should not only improve real world gas mileage over all previous generations and models, instead of only keeping them consistent, but it should further distance the power and performance gap as well.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 06-23-2010 at 11:24 PM.
#154
Life at 6,000 feet. Nice.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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I'm a former 2G owner (2002 Type S), and still kick myself for trading that car in after only 2 or 3 years.
After test driving and sitting in the 4G (which I love, btw), I think one issue is the car is very masculine. The meaty steering wheel, the number of buttons, etc. Whereas I've noticed a lot of women driving earlier TL's, I have a feeling the new ones don't really attract many female buyers.
Any feedback? Personally, I don't consider this a bad thing, but Acura might...
After test driving and sitting in the 4G (which I love, btw), I think one issue is the car is very masculine. The meaty steering wheel, the number of buttons, etc. Whereas I've noticed a lot of women driving earlier TL's, I have a feeling the new ones don't really attract many female buyers.
Any feedback? Personally, I don't consider this a bad thing, but Acura might...
#155
I'm a former 2G owner (2002 Type S), and still kick myself for trading that car in after only 2 or 3 years.
After test driving and sitting in the 4G (which I love, btw), I think one issue is the car is very masculine. The meaty steering wheel, the number of buttons, etc. Whereas I've noticed a lot of women driving earlier TL's, I have a feeling the new ones don't really attract many female buyers.
Any feedback? Personally, I don't consider this a bad thing, but Acura might...
After test driving and sitting in the 4G (which I love, btw), I think one issue is the car is very masculine. The meaty steering wheel, the number of buttons, etc. Whereas I've noticed a lot of women driving earlier TL's, I have a feeling the new ones don't really attract many female buyers.
Any feedback? Personally, I don't consider this a bad thing, but Acura might...
As far as comparisons to other brands and models it competes with, the TL may lag in a category here, or a category there, but overall it's either as good, or better across the board than the cars it competes with.
As far as the different generations of TLs, bottom line, the 4G is better in just about every way (this coming from a former 3G owner). IF you're looking for an ES 350, you're not going to be happy with a BMW or an Audi, etc. That's the TL's competition.
Lexus? If that's what you prefer, I hear some people like the Buick Lucerne. Maybe look at a Lincoln MKZ. Acura is going to handle better, with a firmer ride, than those kinds of cars.
#156
The TL is an upscale sedan with competitors being vehicles like the Maxima or MKZ, i.e. basically other gussied up family cars. It's not a BMW or Audi competitor.
I know the new 3G owners said the same thing when I got my 04 because of its new focus on performance and style, but it still isn't, sorry.
Unless I read that wrong.
I know the new 3G owners said the same thing when I got my 04 because of its new focus on performance and style, but it still isn't, sorry.
Unless I read that wrong.
#157
Drifting
There are many more changes between the 01 and the 10 with having a trustworthy transmission being at the front of the line. The Tech package is great.
I've had both cars and think the 2010 is probably the best of the TL series cars I've ever had. They are different cars and can't be compared.
I've had both cars and think the 2010 is probably the best of the TL series cars I've ever had. They are different cars and can't be compared.
The new TL is also the best car I have had, and I had 2 previous MDX's as well. They were bullet proof. I have to say the TL get's poor gas mileage. You would think that they would have te deactivating cylinders like the Accord.
Otherwise I love the TL.
#158
Mademoiselle Chanel!!
Not sure how the TL is being compared to a Max...a Lincoln, not sure about that even. Max's may aim at the TL, but their Nissan's. Upscale class; Lexus, Infiniti, Acura of the Japanese brands. Old guard, Honda, Nissa, Toyota...
IMO I see some 3G owners finding it hard to relate to the TL's new direction and that the TSX has supplanted it as the more popular Acura. That seems to be Acura's new marketing strategy to me.
The 4 G is just a better vehicle than the 3G. Plain and simple. The 5G should better than 4G...that's the product game. I choose my 01 3.2 CL over a Honda Prelude because the engineering focus was delivering a better vehicle. I usually research a vehicle for months before a purchase because it's a major investment with no financial return. Honda/Acura product seem to almost always be near the top. Could it be they have kept both product lines rather simple compared to most, maybe...does it hurt their sales numbers compared to other car lines, perhaps. Some say Toyota sold their soul to supplant GM....hmmm could be.
IMO I see some 3G owners finding it hard to relate to the TL's new direction and that the TSX has supplanted it as the more popular Acura. That seems to be Acura's new marketing strategy to me.
The 4 G is just a better vehicle than the 3G. Plain and simple. The 5G should better than 4G...that's the product game. I choose my 01 3.2 CL over a Honda Prelude because the engineering focus was delivering a better vehicle. I usually research a vehicle for months before a purchase because it's a major investment with no financial return. Honda/Acura product seem to almost always be near the top. Could it be they have kept both product lines rather simple compared to most, maybe...does it hurt their sales numbers compared to other car lines, perhaps. Some say Toyota sold their soul to supplant GM....hmmm could be.
#159
Three Wheelin'
alot of these comments regarding the 4G....> 3G reflects as if this is a support group thread. ie, first 2 sentences third paragraph above, its ok man, you gotta nice car
#160
So what does this suggest? The market doesn't like this new model as much.
Improvements? Yes. But it also has gone the wrong way in more than one area, and here's my real problem: whereas the 3G was immensely competitive when it was new in areas of style, performance, technology, etc., the new one is merely middle of the road.
Frankly your statement is not "plain and simple". It's actually rather debatable.