Xpditor

Not in the least. I do it all the time. My occupation takes me to major functions all the time and I see lots of Acuras parked proudly among the BMWs, Porches, M-Bs.

In this neck of the woods, value, quality, styling and economy are very respected attributes. Green is in. Ostentatious badge worship is out.

Have you checked the new J. D. Powers Initial Quality survey results?

1. Porshe
2. Acura
3. Mercedes-Benz

The reason that some of us think you have a prejudice FOR those spendy marques is that you seem to ignore all the objective data.

It's alright if YOU don't like the styling or price structure of the 4G TL. Actually, I don't either. That's why I still have a 3G. But I don't feel the need to slam it as inferior to other cars. I think it is one of the finest cars made. As I get under the skin, I find many similarities between my Acura and my M-B. I've come to the conclusion that Acura reverse-engineered BMW and M-B when designing the 3G as they seem to have "borrowed" a lot of features not normally visible to the casual observer.

NOTE: Some of the recent posts are starting to degrade to an unacceptable level. Let's withhold the personal attacks such as "lies" and "bullshit". It is sufficient to say you don't believe something or that you disagree with it. Like the car itself, we have higher standards for our debate. Thanks.

compewterbleu

Actually came close to inking a Taurus SHO in January. Felt like I was driving my brother in-laws Lincoln Continental. It rides big...my sister who is married to him was saying it's nice, but not you, it reminds of something my husband would buy. She's 66. He was in his 70's. I liked the regular aspired TL. Lacrosse...Buick /Government motors has more refining to do to earn my bucks. Genesis, still can't see myself pulling the trigger on a Hyundai...I recall them from my tour in Korea. Maxima, hmmm, the Z inspired lights don't fit the cheese slicer grille to me. Just doesn't fit. Two of my partners and I were looking at them, I bought the TL , one an Altima, the other is a holding pattern wondering what the next RL will be. It's ride wasn't truly inspiring enough for me. I went back to the Acura dealer...even stopped by VW to est drive the CC again and the A4, sat in a 3 series and it just didn't feel right, drove it around the block, back and parked it. Then I drove the TL SH-AWD. Still waited until February to pull the trigger.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Initial quality is a meaningless thing, as most agree down where that was posted in the news section. The only ones who make a big deal about it are the winners.

I have no problem with TL styling. I'm one of the few whom are indifferent from it. Don't know where that came from.

I have no problem with TL pricing structure. Don't know where that came from.

The rest of it makes no sense either unless you have people in denial that there car isn't the best out there. Which actually is missing the point because if you read it properly you'd see the "inferior" car I was referring to in the instance of my post was MY car, a 3G. How twisted is that? But like I said I don't need sweet talk to console me on my choice. I'm a big boy.

As for the NOTE section, yeah I agree. But I feel like it's more than a bit directed at me and not others who instigated with things like "You have issues" and "You have badge envy". Yet that post was mostly directed at me.

Oh well, I'm not looking for a ban here. I apologize

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I just haven't found anything I can pull the trigger on either. I really like the SHO but it's sheer size is not necessary for me.

I'm holding out for the Regal GS. I'd love to think I could get a new S60 or ATS but they're too small. I'm also waiting for the new Tesla Model S.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I'd like to apologize to the people here to whom I was a complete and utter douchebag to today. It hasn't been a good day for me, but that's certainly no excuse.

MyT6MT

When thing are shit -- NEVER go on a forum! Rule #1 in social networking! Too easy to get pissy.

MyT6MT

Sorry I have to chuck this at MyCarIsnt... I do like your fire here in the 4G forums but you don't own the car. Most of us here do!

We all know what an improvement the 4G (especially the SH-AWD) is over the 3G because most of us owned a 3G. You would too if you had one! Just Say'en!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I have the experience with them, though. For what that's worth. It's not like I turned a wheel for 10 minutes in a basic test drive.

MyT6MT

Understood! But...

boe_d

I think the problem here may be that some of the new generation TL owners may feel like we are insulting their choice or taste and that is hardly the case. As a result some people may take posts here personally and some posts may not always be taken as attempts at requests for improvements.

I own an older gen TL and I can make a very long list of things I would change about it just as I can about the new TL. That doesn't mean I hate my car or Acrua - quite the contrary, I really like my car and am happy to drive it again after I travel and have some rental for a week. I think those of use who post things about the current TL post them not to put down acura but because for whatever reason we want Acura to once again have the best bang for the buck entry level luxury vehicle on the road once again. I feel that my car was that when I purchased it but I don't feel like Acura continued that tradition. I'm just hoping they are back to that status when I have to buy my next car as for whatever reason I feel some smidge of loyalty.

ESHBG

I agree, and I have been saying this also. I couldn't live without the back up camera, it's really nice having the upgraded sound system and screen, etc., but I can take or leave the Navi because of all of the good aftermarket options out there. It is nice having it so integrated into the car and it has been uber-useful thus far, but...there are a lot of issues with it also (i.e. slow to start up, graphics kind of poor, etc.).

But it's a catch 22: Acura separates out these options, and you will almost certainly get a higher production cost (and in turn, a higher consumer cost of course) and you run the risk of a more confusing buying process. I like Nissans/Infinitis overall and considered them, but the buying process was annoying to me because of all of the crazy options, packages, etc., so I stayed w/ Honda/Acura again the last time around.

Xpditor

.... And what do the losers say? (The other side of that coin) :wink:

I value everyone's personal testimony, even if it differs from mine. These are complicated, mass-produced automobiles. When I started a thread on my CLK350 Coupe, a member promptly told me what a POS his was and all the problems he had. That was HIS experience. It is what it is. Even though his was several model years older, that's his reality and, for him, it leaves a long lasting bitter taste.

It's OK for him to tell me what a POS HIS was, but if he tells me what a POS MINE is, I'm going to get defensive. He's never even seen mine.

My experience is that both my TL and the M-B are the best cars I have ever had and I've had many. Yes, I'm a car guy and Yes, I'm performance oriented. That's MY experience.

I may have used some of your language as examples but the caution was directed to all. If I have a problem with you alone, you will know it clearly and you will hear from me (or another mod) by Personal Message.

Debating, disagreeing, strongly defending your views.... that's all part of a good forum. It only becomes a problem when and if the debate starts going south with mud-slinging, name calling, or other personal attacks. That's when you can expect a mod to step in and restore a smooth flow of ideas.

On behalf of all, apology accepted.

Dave

smarty666

That is the thing that scares me the most. I don't want Acura to go down the path and I think they are beginning to. Lexus, Infiniti, and the Germans already do this stuff and Acura has been known for how much comes standard and with the latest gen TL and the other Acura models they have less stuff standard that used to be standard previously!

I'm hoping Acura reverses this on the 5th Gen TL but only time will tell on that one. I rather them not add new luxury features then to go down the road where less and less comes standard and you have to pay unGodly to get those things.

A great example of this is the RX350. If you want to get Bi-Xenon headlights, you have to get the nav and audio packages, which total like $3600-3800 just so you can have Xenon headlights?

Acura has always been known for the extreme simplicity of buying or leasing when it comes to choices and I don't want them to go down the expensive/complex option packages, which they have begun to do. Leave it how it was, everything standard, and have a separate tech package for the nav if customers want to get factory navigation and that alone.

Xpditor

It was I who said that Road & Track's tests of the TL and the 530i said the both cars had moderate understeer. BTW, this is a desirable trait in a racing car. It is easier to control than oversteer. I have read that most racing teams will dial in a small amount of understeer. (Not saying that the TL is a racing car by any definition!)

In the test I previously referenced from the April 2004 issue, this is what the test driving team said:

BMW 530i (with sport pkg):
Lateral acceleration: .86g.......moderate understeer
Slalom:.....................64.1 mph...mild understeer

Acura TL:
Lateral acceleration:.... .87g......moderate understeer
Slalom:......................65.8mph...moderate understeer

Those are objective numbers. Same track, same drivers, same conditions. The TL out handled the 530i. And this was a base model, not an A-Spec.

You have reinforced for me an observation: Perception is often reality and Reputation weighs heavy. BMW enjoys a top reputation as a driver's car... mostly (and very expensively) because of their advertising. How many times have you seen the TV commercial for the new 5-series with the pearls dropping down to take the shape of the car? I must have seen it 50 times! I wake up in the middle of the night chanting: "Must have BMW!"

boe_d

I see a lot of talk about hopes for the 5G TL; I'm guessing some have given up on them turning around the 4G with a mid cycle refresh. Myself, I am hoping they do such a major overhaul on the mid generation verhicle that it might as well be called the 5G. I don't think I can wait five more years for 5G that get's it right again. It wouldn't be the end of the world if I switch over to Lexus or another brand but I still hope that Acura can radically change direction from the path they are currently heading down.

I'd like to think Acura can glean from their sales figures, market feedback and forums like this what they are doing wrong and fix things (fast).

winstrolvtec

The new tech package now includes chrome accented door handles and a rear spoiler which it never did in the past. The spoiler alone is roughly a $600 value (after installation) and mostly all of the tech package features have been significantly upgraded, with a few new features added. Well worth it IMO. Now I can see where you are coming from but it's not as if the base stereo is crap, arguably it is nearly as good as the old ELS minus the DVD audio feature and you could say the same for the leather. They also include USB connection, which was also optional in the past.

I don't really see it as the customer paying more for those things because it includes more and a new FWD tech compared to the new price of a 3G TLS is only $610 more. Given inflation and the current incentives and interest rates compared to a few years ago when the 3G was selling new, the 4G FWD tech is a cheaper vehicle and because of that it can be considered a better value.

It's more like the base model consumer has to pay more for what appears to be less. The base model might be a slightly worse deal compared to the former but the new tech is a better one IMO. Acura is placing more incentive in purchasing the tech package probably because of the popularity of portable navi devices. Chances are if you had a 3G TL with a tech package you will also get that in a new one and find it well worth it but even if you didn't the 4G minus tech still makes for a decent upgrade.

smarty666

Yeah it is! I love how you guys keep making excuses for Acura and trying to make it out like they can do no wrong or more rather nothing has changed and it has. You have to pay extra now for perforated leather (aka more comfortable seats) and the ELS audio system which you didn't have too pre 2009. I've sat in both the base TL and tech package TL and I noticed a differences in comfort between the two. Also, that base TL leather is not going to breathe and is going to wear and crack much more quickly. Your playing with semantics by saying that it includes a spoiler now and chrome handles. Hell, you just proved my point again and I forgot about those. Chrome door handles should be a standard feature, not something you have to get in a $3600 tech package. Many other cars, some even cheaper then the TL, come with chrome door handles.

Also, their accessory options post 2009 have increased dramatically with many more offerings as well, some being things you can only get on a certain model/trim level, etc. Especially with the wheel/tire size options.

My whole point is, Acura is starting to head down the road as all the other luxury companies, more expensive packages that include less stuff standard, multiple options, more choices that have to be made, etc all of which complicate the buying process.

That whole premise begins to erode Acura's history of simplicity in your option choices when getting one of their products. That is an advantage they have had over all the rest and one of the main reasons why I went back and got a 2nd 3G TL in 2008. Now, they are not at the point yet like some companies where it is ridiculous complicated and some packages cancel out others, and you can't get this with that, but I hope I'm wrong and they don't continue this trend but I have a bad gut feeling that they will.

Just my gut feeling. Hopefully Acura will prove me wrong.

black label

Unfortunately, it's a double edged sword. While I agree with you and prefer the "A or B" way that Acura has packaged cars in the past, there is a huge demographic that disagrees with us. There are advantages to both the "ala carte" plan and the "pick A or B" and disadvantages to both. No matter what they do, there will be people who don't like it.

smarty666

Very true. Also, I think, considering the rest of the automotive companies do things this way, have kind of been pressured and forced to beginning making expensive option packages and more options compared to what they did just 2 years ago. Unfortunately, it is something that is no longer going to be able to distinguish Acura from the rest of the luxury market.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

But I never in fact said which "steer" was better, just which had more.

Also related, I would like to say you probably know that their "handling" tests don't always determine which is truly a better car. The car that has the most g in the corners with the best slalom simply shows which car has the best at-the-limits grip. In this same way they have shown cars like the C63 having better grip than M3s and M5s, but now which is the better handling car(s)? And the AMG would be my personal choice of those three, so I'm not fanboying BMW.

Their understeering ratings only have three ratings right? As in minimal-moderate-excessive? In theory that would mean one car could be noticably more understeer prone but still fall under one category with the other.

black label

I've worked on both ends of the spectrum, Acura pick A or B and Porsche everything is extra (even floor mats). While the Porsche side is nice because they are about as close to a custom coach builder as you'll find now a days there is a major disadvantage. If you go online and configure your ideal Porsche, then go out to find it, chances are it hasn't been built yet. If you truly want that car in that set up, be prepared to order it and wait 6 months to a year. A base model Cayman with absolutely no options is as rare a car as a Cayman S with $15000 in options, because there is so much customization available, all the cars are quite unique. If you aren't willing to wait, you either give up options you wanted to get the color you wanted or you pay for options you didn't want to get the right color or you give up your ideal color choice to get the options you wanted. In the Acura model, you don't have to make as many sacrifices but you don't get as many choices for customizing.

Like I said, it's a double edged sword. One things for sure, Acura does not have the mass appeal or badge desirability to get people to wait 6 months to a year for their car to be custom built. Please don't take that as bashing against Acura, it wasn't meant to be.

smarty666

As long as Acura keeps each package separate and not too complicated it won't be too bad. I just can't stand companies, where they have several different packages and if you get one that cancels out something else or you have to get two packages together and that prevents you from doing something else, etc. Just so frustrating to have to do it that way. Funny thing is, the biggest offenders of this are the Lexus, BMW, and MB. They have so many packages and options that you basically have to order and have the vehicle built exactly the way you want it with the equipment you want and then have to wait 3-6 months to get it.

winstrolvtec

I am not trying to disprove your point, I am only pointing out where it really only applies to, which is to the base model and consumer. It's not as if the 4G FWD tech is so much more money than the more comparable previous generation TLS which had the tech standard. A $610 increase given inflation and a new model generation, is a very good deal. From one comparable model tech package to another tech package you are not actually paying for or more for those items despite them now not being included on the base.

One could say with the inclusion and dollar value of new and upgraded features, chrome accents that the non techs don't have, and a spoiler, that you are not actually paying more for the preforated leather and ELS compared to the cost of the last tech package, just that they are now included in the tech package only.

smarty666

If that was the case, then the 4G Base TL's would come with the same perforated leather and ELS sound system that the tech package TLs do. Regardless of the tech's package price increasing, the price of the car itself has risen as well, as it always does each new model year.

I would believe your story if the Base TL came with perforated leather and the ELS audio system and the tech package was at about $3000, but it's not.

I'm comparing what came standard on the 3G Base TL and was comes standard on the 4G Base TL and there is less now, perforated leather and the ELS audio system being two of the big ticket items. I didn't have to get the nav system in 2008 in order to get the upgraded ELS audio system but now, if I want to get the ELS sound system in the new TL, I have no choice to get a navigation system, which I don't want nor need, and spend $3600 bucks.

My whole point is this, I shouldn't have to spend $3600 bucks in order to get perforated leather and the ELS sound system, I didn't before so why should I now? This is exactly what Lexus does with the Mark Levinson system and Acura followed their suit exactly.

I remember another reason why I didn't get a nav system in 08 was because how ridiculous Acura wanted to charge me for it. By getting the nav system, it rose my payments like 80-90 bucks a month and they wouldn't deal with me on the tech packaged TL at the time because they wanted to make me pay through the nose for it. I can just imagine how much they would hose me now for the tech package with all the crap besides the nav system they threw into it.

KeithL

I hate JD Powers numbers, it is "Inital Quality" which is like the first 90 days or 120 days, talk to me about Quailty year 2 and 3, I think the list will change then, although I think Acura woudl still be near the top.

smarty666

We have a great thread on this very issue over in the automotive news forum, I'd suggest you check it out!

Acura definitely should be at or near the top, no doubt!

Xpditor

That takes us back to the previous question. What are the criteria that you use to define "the better car"?

If the TL out-accelerates, out-handles, the BMW 5-series, if it has more standard luxury features, if the styling is at least competitive, if it has a much higher initial quality survey, if it has higher dependability ratings/lower frequency of repairs, if it holds it's resale value better...... and you don't consider it a better car... what is your criteria? The only things left that I can think of is 1) subjective "feel", and 2) Reputation (a/k/a Status of the Badge)

Xpditor

Your point is taken. Alone, it would have limited significance.... but lack of faults out of the box IS an important factor.

But, the long term surveys by both J. D. Powers and Consumer Reports confirm that Acura shines over the long haul also.

The German marques went through a bad period a couple of years ago but M-B and BMW have recovered somewhat. VW is still way down there.

black label

You are correct that it is the 1st 90 days. The Team with the top spot stays the same in the JD power long term test as well. I'll fully admit that I'm a fan boy when it comes to Porsche but whe it comes to reliability, they really are one of the top dogs. Think about it this way, Porsche has a very strong racing heritage and look at the races they like to participate in, the 24 hours of Lemans, the Paris Dakar Rally, the Trans Syberia rally. You ever notice they aren't interested in feilding an F1 team? If you aren't going to race for several hours straight (like 12 or more) Porsche doesn't feel it tests or proves anything and aren't interested in showing up. They design cars to take an extended beating and keep on performing.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I didn't know we were debating that. LOL. But okay

Performance

No, the TL does not out accelerate the 5-Series when compared comparably, as in 535 versus TL AWD, automatic versus automatic. To compare via C/D numbers, the 2009 TL SH-AWD (automatic then) did the quarter mile in 14.8 @ 97. They also tested a 2008 535xi automatic, an identical setup. It ran the quarter mile in 14 flat @ 102. And it only increases from there. The 0-130 run for the TL takes 35.4 to the 535's 24.2 seconds. The rest of the areas you can conduct could easily be in the Acura's favor. At a smaller circuit I'd say the Acura certainly stands a chance. On something like the Ring the BMW would probably win.

Features

That's value. I don't think luxury is about value, nice as it is. There's a reason the considerably older and more expensive 5-Series still sells: value is a factor but rarely a deal breaker (or maker). Otherwise the TL would be outselling more than MKZ and HS, right?

Reliability

As many other users on here clearly agree, initial quality is a worthless item. In dependability BMW is still ranked above average, so again hardly a deal breaker. Resale is like badge appeal for initial buying. It's a perception thing rather than the car itself, at least usually. Not saying it doesn't count, but again not a huge factor. People this concerned with resale in comparison to the TL as well as value are probably not going to seriously consider said 5-Series.

Now as for what I think makes it better, one starts with the interior. It looks fairly plain but then again the TL's interior looks like an Accord with whipped cream, soooo. The materials are certainly better, with noticably less flimsy plastic and richer leather, tighter fit lines, that sort of business. It's also packaged noticably better, with more interior volume and a larger trunk yet being dimensionally smaller. A big factor for a buyer? No, probably not, but you did ask ME. LOL. Speaking of the trunk, it's flat as well, whereas even an owner or two on here have complained that the TL's trunk is almost useless because of its size and ridged floor. It doesn't have the brittle ride of the TL and isolates the passengers from noise better. Its power is far more accessible with similar fuel economy.

And even so, I don't know that I'd buy the 5-Series based on the fact that it is already "the old car". So really, the comparison could be about the 2011 5-Series, which leaps ahead even more in almost every way. A certain 550i owner that previously owned a 4G AWD would concur.

winstrolvtec

I see what you are saying but by grouping these items together on one end you are forced to pay for it all even if you want only one of those items but at the other end they are significantly cheaper than if you had to pay for each one individually. If you don't want all that it sucks but if you do it's great. You can't please everyone.

From the standard model's perspective, one does now have to pay for the tech package to get ELS and preforated leather, I am not saying that but if you came or are coming from a tech package model already you may not necessarily feel that you are actually paying for or more for these items now.

Again, there is only about a $610 increase from the 08 TLS (tech) to the new 10' FWD Tech. From a base 08 TL Tech, there is a $2610 increase. These price differences are not really an indication of paying for or more for those features, again it's more like those items are only included in the tech package now to give the incentive of purchasing the tech version that in the past more poeple declined because they felt it was only navigation. Six of one or half dozen of the other, whatever, the point is no matter what you pay for something, included or not, and everyone doesn't have to pay for or more for those few items now. It depends on where or what you are coming from.

I think you are more upset with the fact that you have to pay for the tech in order to get items that used to be included but understand the items are not really the same, they are an upgrade and in any case they warrant an added premium but in the situation of coming from a tech package already, they don't actually cost more money given it's an upgraded new model generation, as I pointed out.

Dealer experiences vary, that should not be an idication of what Acura does or how they chose to build their cars. I got my TLS for one of the best prices available at the time and so I did with my SH recently. For the same length of term and the exact same amount of money down, I pay less monthly for the SH than the TLS. So I wouldn't pay too much attention to sticker or package pricing, since that is not an indication of whether you will get hosed or not.

winstrolvtec

As for performance, there are cars that could probably beat out both of these examples that are cheaper non luxury brand vehicles, so I would not say performance alone makes for a better car, perhaps to you and that is more than fair but not everyone.

I am not getting into a 6MT debate again but it would be hard to demonstrate any real performance advantage in any category between the more enthusiastic 6MT models. You could also say we should compare the 2011 5 series but we could also wait two years and compare the 5G TL to be equally as fair.

Features are a value when they are inlcuded for a low cost not when you have to pay another $20k to match them in another car and it still offers little to nothing more. High end features and their availability is a luxury not a value. The 5 sells well but it has nothing to do with performance, reliabilty, features or value because the numbers represent a lot of 528's and they are far less equipped than what comes in the TL standard.

Reliabilty and resale may not be a deal breaker to some as far as the 5 goes but to others it is. Not saying it is bad in that particular vehicle but better in the TL. That is enough to consider it better by some standards. So is the comparable performance to dollar ratio, safety ratings, impressive standard features list and significantly lower price when comparably equipped. Some can buy two cars for the price of the one, that can fall under the better category.

I just don't think it is fair throw the term "better" around when it may or may not be the case depending on what one is looking for. Objectively the 5 is a better "luxury" vehicle and all things that surround the term and it is also a better "drivers" car based solely on sporty feel plus it carries a better image, status, and luxury reputation but that is all I can think of.

Because of the varying and very different selling points of each, it's hard to say which is truly "better" only what may be a better choice on an individual basis. I would even go as far to say the 5 may actually be considered better because luxury and image for some reason take precedent in our society but that doesn't automatically mean it is the smartest or the better choice.

smarty666

Exactly what I meant and couldn't say it better myself and yes, it does suck

Acura has finally joined the rest of the luxury pack now, if you want the upgraded audio system, you have to get the navigation system. It stinks is all I'm saying. It was something that made Acura unique.

ityper

man i really hope they fired the dipshit that designed the front-end of the TL.

Oswald Vater

My salesman told me yesterday that a revised nose is in the works for the refesh due in 2012. It possibly could come in 2011 but he was doubtful it would. He also couldn't elaborate on any details. I'm thinking they'll make the beak a little smaller ala the TSX.

jazzpicker

I was given the same information here from one of the Acura managers.

boe_d

Couldn't come soon enough!

johndt

Instead of waiting for the 2012 TL, just jump in, the water's fine. I did it 4 months ago after investigating the CC, ES350, G37 and Lacrosse. In my opinion, none of these offer a total package approaching the value of the TL.

A 3G owner who was never a fan of the 4G styling, I took the plunge anyway (leased a Tech in WDP) and painted the front grille for $175. It is, by far, the best TL I've ever owned and (except for my 1987 5 spd Legend coupe) the best Acura.

Oswald Vater

I was at my dealer with that consideration in mind. They invited me in as a current lease customer (7 more payments) because of the current lease incentives so I thought I'd have a cup of coffee with them. They gave me a decent (but not great) deal on a new TL/Tech but lowballed my trade (08/Navi with 14k) so I told them I was going to wait a little longer. It is, however, a great car and I would have bought it had the deal been right.

boe_d

I admit the design is hideous and the designer should probably go back to making whatever he did before he managed to get a job at Acura. Shouldn't his boss also be blamed for saying the atrocity should go to market?

My guess is that the 2 were probably about to quit and go to another company and they decided to stick it to Acura on the way out. The design was too far into production for someone to fix it initially but you'd think after the first year of miserable sales Acura would say we better put some lipstick on this pig and fast! The US government is big on bailing out really bad business decisions lately - maybe FEMA can declare it a disaster and they'll get money to clean it up.