FiveLiterCheater

I'm not expecting more than 300hp....the new TSX was hyped up to get the 2.4-T + SHAWD from the RDX.

levon1830

You answered yourself.

If you're on this website regularly, chances are you're a car enthusiast (I know I am.) That being the case, chances are you care more about performance than the VAST majority of car buyers. Unfortunately for us, we represent a very, very minute percentage of total sales for passenger vehicles, not including sales for dedicated sports cars (Ferrari, Lambo., etc.).

Some typical non-enthusiast questions when comparing two cars:

1. How much does each car cost?
2. What features do I get in each car for their respective prices?
3. Is it safe?
4. Is it reliable?
5. How much does each car cost (purposefully repeated)?

"Car A (Acura) costs thousands of dollars less than Car B (BMW) and I get all of these cool features (iPod hookup, navi, etc.)!? I'll take the Acura!

Mindworm

Levon -

This entire argument ignores something Acura indicated to the public they were doing -- going "upscale" to compete with the class leaders (which they currently don't do) and differentiating themselves from Honda models in and of themselves.

Either you're doing it or you aren't. Period.

They are giving us all the lip service, but their first two moves show absolutely no follow through on the concept.

You can't expect people to really believe they're eating caviar at canned tuna prices, can you?

chill_dog

I swear you people don't read...it's been said at least three times (twice by me and once by someone else) that this move to Tier 1 will occur with the NEXT generations, not the ones currently out/coming out in 2008. It will start with the flagship RL in '10 (3G), then the halo NSX (vapor car) will show up, and then the TSX (3G) and TL (5G) in '14.

Such a shift in philosphy can't happen over night...it will take time. Not satisfied with waiting? Buy a BMW.

sifuacura

iTrader: (1)

Your right. All of these people complaining about not getting enough power because acura said they will move to tier 1. but they dont stop to think that most of the car coming out in 2008 were designed years back before getting approve.

Mindworm

Chill Dog -

I don't think Acura can continue to struggle along in mediocrity. And changes can come faster than people think. Yes these decisions were made a while back, but there's a number of decisions that can be made in regards to what goes on under the hood and with trim pieces. Look at all the updating that goes on every year with MB and BMW. A tweak here. A boost there.

It's not that hard if you're concerned about the final product more than the bottom line.

JAB00

I think Acura will be fine. As much as people lament about the 09 TSX there'll be eager buyers. People don't take into account the rising cost of gas. I'm in TX where it's generally cheaper but super is running close to $3.40. In Cali or on the East-coast I'm sure it's closer to $4.

The difference between 290hp and 350hp is negligible. More low end torque would help. To me, when I upgrade, my outstanding 05 TL, what I'll be looking for is the creature comfort. The current iteration of the TL has more than enough power. I'm sure the next gen will be at least on par but probably more powerful. If the next Gen TL or RL is sub 300hp but with decent gas mileage and great creature comfort for the dollar I'm in.

Things I'm looking for is ipod integration, good sound system, updated nav, up dated blue tooth, satellite radio/traffic link and so on.

csmeance

NueronBob dyno'ed his RL and according to his calculations, lost 30% HP from crank to wheels on a 4 wheel dyno. The RL gets around 16 MPG now, thats with a 3.5 Litre motor. If the TL was to get the MDX motor, it would average around 15 too.

VtecTL

We will probably see many new features in the 09 TL that no current car out there (or very few) has. If I remember correctly, when the 04 TL made its debut, it had many features that no other car companies even offered: Hands free Bluetooth, voice recognition navi, solar sensing climate control etc. 2-3 years after Acura offered features, many car companies followed and now almost every car comes or has an option for bluetooth etc. Acura has IMO dominated the technology department when they first debut thier cars. I'm sure we will see some impressive features for 09.

123456SPEED

Only thing(s) that could really wow me is a 2 door version, stunning design, or some unheard of hybrid option that gives lots of power and markedly improved mpg. we know that ain't happenin. For the price and expected size of the 09, I find the current TL is a better fit.

Everyone coming down from their SUV highs wants bigger cars, not me. Bigger engine, no; AWD, not really; lower mpg, not, $40k plus, no.

acurasofla

I hope you're right. I have enjoyed my '04 TL for over three years and it has gotten nothing but positive comments from day one. It is one of the best cars I have owned. I really look forward to the '09 and am hopeful it will be the hit the '04 was when it debuted. If it appears that it is, I'll get in line for one.

Ibn Rushd

Yeah, but it gets slaughtered pretty fast in the twisties...and i was saying 350hp can keep up with them because the SHAWD WILL eat more power than the ones they're covering...so they still have to make it up.

levon1830

I think 'slaughtered' is a little too strong a word to use when comparing the handling of the TL-S to comparable RWD sports sedans. It holds its own very well based on what I've seen.

FiveLiterCheater

You don't have a clue

Texas

+1, +1, Acura is reading the we want tech tea leaves and thus the TSX as is...all I see here is comments on tech this and tech that and Oh! gas is high maybe we should get a V-2...sounds like a bunch of AARP drivers...I can say that as I get AARP mail...

come on folks it is more fun to drive a car that handles(RWD or Sh), is quick (sorry the TL is not quick today, see Accord, Camoo and G8, all less than the TL) with looks that age well (TL gets that one), than a car that has great traffic interface or best hard drive....There are plenty fuel efficient cars with great tech (see tsx), the TL does not need to be another one....TSX is off my list, waiting on TL then G8 if TL does not come with HP, Tq and SH with edge looks....(end of rant)

bigred123

There are 2 key features I am looking for in the new TL - SH-AWD, which everyone is talking about.

And the one I haven't seen much discussion on is ventilated/air conditioned seats. The Lexus ES has this option - it is a key feature I am looking for in the new TL.

If neither of these items are available in the first TL model out in 2009, then I'm afraid I might look elsewhere or go with the 08. I really like the looks of the new TL prototypes - we surely can't be far off from seing a concept or the real thing any day now.

The '04 TL looked great when it came out, and the re-styling in '07 made it look even better. My '99 TL is looking tired and I can't wait to get into the '09 TL but I'm quickly getting impatient.....

Xpditor

Car & Driver tested a BASE 2004 TL in April 2004 and a BMW 535 with the sports package. In all objective measurements of handling, the TL was better with the exception of one braking test, 60-0, where the Bimmer was slightly shorter stopping distance. But, 100-0, the TL won.

And you must not have seen the video of the TL vs. IS350 and G35 at the track with professional drivers. The TL came in first with the fastest times.

Don't buy into the stereotypes of FWD until you check it out.

I kept hearing about the horrendous torque steer in the TL. Even in car mags! I wondered if I had gotten so used to correcting for it that I was oblivious to it?

So, from a dead stop, I took my hands off the wheel and punched it in D.

It went straight as an arrow! No hands. No torque steer! None. And I know what torque steer is: I've rented several Nissan Maximas.

I HAVE felt the wheel fight back when I have made a sharp turn and nailed the throttle. But that is the VSA trying to get the car to go straight. I believe this is what is being misdiagnosed as torque steer. Because it feels like torque steer would feel.

camporealer

At the car show last week, the Acura rep was talking about the new Technoloogy coming out next year and specifically mentioned the new seats will be cooled and heated. Now she was talking about the RL, but they should "trickle down" to the TL.

Bearcat94

Here! Here!

Everytime I read a reveiw and they mention the "Massive" or "Terrible" or "Tremendous" or, worst, "Typical" Torque Steer, it makes me wonder if the reveiwer actually did more than drive the car around the block.

The CNET guy didn't even drive it far enough to get a 2 sec peice of video going FORWARD. The drove the car 50 - 100 ft in reverse and then ran the film backwards to make it LOOK LIKE it was driving forwards.

At the 1/4 mile a couple weeks ago - none;
At the AutoX last Sat & Sun - none.

Understeer - YES!! Torque Steer, uhmmm .... no.

The only time I really notice it is when traction is uneven at launch - bumpy or uneven road surfaces. And thats gonna happen to ANY car that breaks traction on that kind of surface.

chill_dog

Mindworm - I agree, it can be done...if Honda wanted to. But I'm pretty sure they don't. I'd be willing to bet what I stated will play out versus a radical shift in 2009.

levon - post 1651 hits the nail on the head.

XP - our cars have torque steer? I've honestly never seen it, and from what I can gather, I drive much harder on a daily basis than most people here.

Bearcat - you noticed that understeer, too, huh?

Legend2TL

Actually Acura has already been upscale with the 2G Legend and NSX, however the NSX grew old (no redesign) and the Legend was replaced with the 1G RL which was a disappointment (HP actually went down in that transistion for more torque, same basic motor).

In that time period Honda/Acura paid the financial price for exclusive platforms (supposidly the NSX never made any money when amortized for the NRE and tooling cost).

In more modern times Acura has reaped excellent sales of the 2G and 3G TL's and 1G MDX. So sharing platforms and tool bin engineering was a great compromise for producing fine upscale products. Alot of folks (myself included) do not mind the fact that the TL and MDX share alot of components with the Accord and Pilot, since they are already excellent platforms to start with.

Going upscale for Acura to me is mostly a marketing issue, the RL although a great car play in a difficult market space where image and marque are more important.

In terms of "You can't expect people to really believe they're eating caviar at canned tuna prices, can you?", a neighbor with a ML350 was literally stunned when she drove another neighbor's 1G MDX and then heard the price, ~$12K less than her lesser equiped MB. She was stunned considering how much she paid for her MB and the problems she's had with it.

So yeah you can eat caviar at canned tuna prices, another great example of this is the C5 and C6 Vette's!

Ibn Rushd

Must have missed that. Fair enough. I don't buy into stereotypes actually, i have a TL and it does hold it's own, but it's easier to throw the Bimmer into the turn and have it stick...was using that as a bases....

Sorry.

And i knew about the no torque steer thing , although yeah the Altimas have severe torque steer to...anyway...

And thanks for correcting me (Levon as well).

Ac Man

I don't want to make it seem like I'm a performance whore, because I'm not. I'm just playing the devil's advocate, and hp is something that most people want. They might not ever use it, but people want it for bragging rights, peace of mind, etc. I've come to the conclusion that I'm getting a 4 gen TL no matter what. I've seen what the competition has to offer and I'm really not impressed to the point where I'd jump ship and leave Acura. I want features, that's the most important thing to me right now. I see that the new TSX has a 410 watt sound system. That is important to me, I'm glad Acura heard our complaints about the weak sound system and addressed it. Ipod integration is important to me, because a 40 GB hard drive will do nothing for me, I have too much music. I want to be able to hook up my 160 GB ipod and be able to see the display on the nav screen, control it easily and not lose XM radio. Modding your car is fun (and expensive!) but I would like to see some of mods that we've done, come from factory. I think Acura has done a good job in this category, because many of the mods we've done to our TL's, Acura implemented them in the '07 MMC (Rearview camera, chrome grill, chrome strip next to the fog lights, lower fog lights, footwell lights, etc.). Some folks want heated/cooled seats, some want heated steering wheels and some want 350 hp. Once we know exactly what Acura is bringing to the table, then we'll be able to decide whether we're staying or leaving, we just need to be smart about our decision. But the lack of hp, or the so called ugly grill will not be the deciding factors for me.

KpMeth

man.. I hate the way they did to new model's front.

Mad ugly .. Interior looks pretty good tho..

So far I have seen RL ( exterior ) and TSX ( both interior and exterior )

TL's new model have not been announced but from those two bothers came out..

I'm happy with my 08' Type-S

Xpditor

As you may have noticed in my sig, I also had a BMW. It was actually the GF's. (Don't get me started on that topic. )

I agree that the BMW's subjective feel is the best there is... especially in the lighter 3 series.... for those of us who were raised on RWD and, as teenagers, tearing them every which way but loose.

I suggest that the subjective feel may be different if someone cut their teeth in a FWD. It might be their "normal".

The early road tests (cited above) stated: "Moderate Under steer" for the TL but also said that for the BMW 535. In fact, I prefer moderate under steer to over steer. For me, it just seems more controllable.

The funnest cars I have had to drive have been manual tranny RWD, tail-happy American iron. I think every car I drive is inevitably compared with those muscle cars of days gone by.

But, if the mission is to get from Point A to Point B on a twisty road, our FWD TLs can do it quicker than almost any muscle car from the 60s, 70s, 80s and even match them pretty well in straight line acceleration.



But, as a gear head of many years, I acknowledge the "fun factor" which is hard to quantify objectively.

JohnJr

All of the spy shots that I've seen of the 09 TL aren't impressive at all IMO. It's not a sleek and smooth as the 3G's.

csmeance

you have to remember that acura is hiding the details of the car with the coverings.

FiveLiterCheater

Not to mention they use a bunch of padding to hide the overall shape...so nobody really knows what it looks like. Time will tell...

FiveLiterCheater

Competely agree....I recently took out our rental C350 (2008) because the ML was in the shop (as usual.....17th time with less than 40k miles) and I really wasn't that impressed with it. Yeah its RWD, but for some reason the TL puts a bigger smile on my face when i'm climbing up an onramp at 60mph. The 3G TL is really something else, esp with just the Comptech RSB.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

I personally am hoping the 2009 Acura TL will have at least 330 hp, 275# tq, look great, and MUST have a 6 speed manual with the AWD. It better do 0-60 under 6 seconds. Or Bye Bye.

Actually low 5's to 60. Heck my Civic Si does 6.3 to 60.

csmeance

SH-AWD rob's power, a 290 HP RL goes zero to sixty in about 7.1 seconds. That means if the TL were to get SH-AWD and 330 HP, it would take about 6 seconds, and thats slower than the current one which gets to 60 in about 5.6

Ibn Rushd

Actually i prefer the understeer as well, and to be honest, i think the Bimmer is the only car for me to compete with the TL in a fun factor...I've driven the Benz C's, E's and they don't compare, and i find them less likely to want to go around a corner.

For me, FWD is the normal, i don't believe we've owned a RWD car ever, and only recently picked up the MDX and RL which are sitting with an AWD system, and in all fairness the only RWD cars i've driven are the Camaro and Lexus GS300, the BMW was AWD(My friend confirmed it, i thought it was RWD). (I will be driving another friends 328i, so we'll see from there..but i know it's not fair to compare an 06 328 to a 02TL.)


And since i haven't driven a RWD car in acouple of years (I drove both cars 2 or 3 years ago), i guess i'm going to shut up because obviously i'm not remembering properly. My apologies.

limited

What about size? Seems like the 09 TL is going to be a pig of a car. Even if the 09 TL can one up the all the competitors in it's class in terms of HP, it no doubt will be the largest and possibly heaviest of them all.

agt2046

Any chance that we will see A-Vtec on 09 TL? If so, that would be awesome that it gets performance with great gas mileage. If not, what model will it be applied to?

Xpditor

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Your experience, views, and preferences are just as valid as anyone's.

Don't be intimidated by my title. I'm just in here posting like the other members.

And sometimes I'm wrong. Not often, but sometimes.

Apologies are not necessary. But your respectful tone and style is appreciated by all the members. You're a good example.

XP

jproy

How great would it be if you had the option for FWD, AWD, or RDW.

TL1999

where are some photos of the 4G????????????????

KeithL

I'm worried about that as well. Seeing as honda leverages the Accord as the underpinnings fo the TL I woudl expect the TL to grow a bit. I have driven an 08 Accord and honestly it is now too big, makes me start thinking of what an Asia Crown Vic woudl be like

You would think Honda knows it has a damn near perfect car right now, I mean it outsells the G35 and it is a 5 year old design vs. their new design!! They need to evolve it, and ditch that new stupid grill!! RL and TSX have me thinking my 08 Type-S is it, next up for me G37 sedan. What they need is HD based navi and music box, vented seats, bump the HP for those people that don't think 286HP is enough and bump up the ELs to the 410 watts in the TSX and MDX.

KeithL

Maybe TSX Type-S in 2010 or 2011, then TL is out a while so you have nice fitting of models

2011

TSX base
TSX - Type-S (RDX setup)
TL 3.5 286-300HP
TL Type-S 3.7 330HP SH-AWD

RL goes away and they bring out LEGEND 4.0 or 4.5 V8 RWD or AWD(I know I'm smoking dope on this one)

6SpdTerror

It actually makes a lot of sense tho. I hope honda actually reads these threads!