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Hockey: News and Discussion Thread
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Sorry, Taco...it's not personal...just unbelievably hilarious to me how inept the Oilers are...but, remember how I laughed at the Oil signing The Monster to be back-up? Well, this here, right from your local press, shows why The Monster was a horrid choice given the other backup goalies available: Cult of Hockey: The problem with the Edmonton Oilers? Jonas Gustavsson signing, in one chart | Edmonton Journal
It's a one year contract, for 800k. Seriously, who cares? It's for a back up goalie position also. The plan is for the rookie to take the backup position, but if that doesn't pan out, they'll throw in Gustavsson. They aren't overly counting on him at all. Dig deeper, yumcha. On the surface it may seem dumb. There's more to it, once you get a little deeper.
That article is kind of dumb also. They're analyzing 5-on-5 saving percentages. Carey Price, at .935 is in first place. Gustavsson, at 0.917, is in 70th place. To me, this analysis is bogus, at best. The difference between #1 and #70 is 0.018. Meh.
Last edited by TacoBello; 07-19-2016 at 03:03 PM.
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TacoBello (07-19-2016)
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Yumcha, how do you feel about name brand goalies?
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97BlackAckCL (07-20-2016)
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Trolling Canuckistan
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97BlackAckCL (07-20-2016)
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it seems you expect every team to be made up of only the best of the best, and when someone lower is selected otherwise, you call them dumb
It's a one year contract, for 800k. Seriously, who cares? It's for a back up goalie position also. The plan is for the rookie to take the backup position, but if that doesn't pan out, they'll throw in Gustavsson. They aren't overly counting on him at all. Dig deeper, yumcha. On the surface it may seem dumb. There's more to it, once you get a little deeper.
That article is kind of dumb also. They're analyzing 5-on-5 saving percentages. Carey Price, at .935 is in first place. Gustavsson, at 0.917, is in 70th place. To me, this analysis is bogus, at best. The difference between #1 and #70 is 0.018. Meh.
It's a one year contract, for 800k. Seriously, who cares? It's for a back up goalie position also. The plan is for the rookie to take the backup position, but if that doesn't pan out, they'll throw in Gustavsson. They aren't overly counting on him at all. Dig deeper, yumcha. On the surface it may seem dumb. There's more to it, once you get a little deeper.
That article is kind of dumb also. They're analyzing 5-on-5 saving percentages. Carey Price, at .935 is in first place. Gustavsson, at 0.917, is in 70th place. To me, this analysis is bogus, at best. The difference between #1 and #70 is 0.018. Meh.
I didn't say Edmonton needed to throw the bank at the best backup available, but my point was, there were better choices out there given Gus' track record the last while. That's all. It was just very odd that the Oil would sign Gus esp. if the idea is to TRY to move up a few notches of respectability. Believe it or not, goalies can get injured and/or on games when the starter is having a bad night and/or needs a night off, a backup who can be counted on to get a few wins is not terrible. Goalie depth.
OH WAIT...what happened to Pittsburgh with Flower and Murray?
Again, just doesn't make sense with Gus and Oilersville. Whatever, it's a boring off-season and I like picking on the laughing-stock of all sports in the Oilers.
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It was this goalie branding that drove Moog away. Honest. When he realized the amazing Quick could not do it anymore...and how Crawford and then Murray won it...it was over.
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97BlackAckCL (07-20-2016)
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For a team that's treading water all the time to get the #1 overall pick, I think the idea is to NOT pick the WORST of the pile?
I didn't say Edmonton needed to throw the bank at the best backup available, but my point was, there were better choices out there given Gus' track record the last while. That's all. It was just very odd that the Oil would sign Gus esp. if the idea is to TRY to move up a few notches of respectability. Believe it or not, goalies can get injured and/or on games when the starter is having a bad night and/or needs a night off, a backup who can be counted on to get a few wins is not terrible. Goalie depth.
OH WAIT...what happened to Pittsburgh with Flower and Murray?
Again, just doesn't make sense with Gus and Oilersville. Whatever, it's a boring off-season and I like picking on the laughing-stock of all sports in the Oilers.
I didn't say Edmonton needed to throw the bank at the best backup available, but my point was, there were better choices out there given Gus' track record the last while. That's all. It was just very odd that the Oil would sign Gus esp. if the idea is to TRY to move up a few notches of respectability. Believe it or not, goalies can get injured and/or on games when the starter is having a bad night and/or needs a night off, a backup who can be counted on to get a few wins is not terrible. Goalie depth.
OH WAIT...what happened to Pittsburgh with Flower and Murray?
Again, just doesn't make sense with Gus and Oilersville. Whatever, it's a boring off-season and I like picking on the laughing-stock of all sports in the Oilers.
You're trying too hard. They made some moves, so you can't pick on them for that. They broke up "the core", so you can't pick on them for that. They're trying new things, so you can't pick on them for that. They pick up a backup- backup goalie and that's what you're going after now? C'mon, yumcha. You can do better.
and you don't need to tell me about goalies being able to get injured... guess what cost the Oilers the cup in 05/06...
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Better to be one of the worst, then be one of the best with criminals in the lineup
You're trying too hard. They made some moves, so you can't pick on them for that. They broke up "the core", so you can't pick on them for that. They're trying new things, so you can't pick on them for that. They pick up a backup- backup goalie and that's what you're going after now? C'mon, yumcha. You can do better.
and you don't need to tell me about goalies being able to get injured... guess what cost the Oilers the cup in 05/06...
You're trying too hard. They made some moves, so you can't pick on them for that. They broke up "the core", so you can't pick on them for that. They're trying new things, so you can't pick on them for that. They pick up a backup- backup goalie and that's what you're going after now? C'mon, yumcha. You can do better.
and you don't need to tell me about goalies being able to get injured... guess what cost the Oilers the cup in 05/06...
FWIW, I agree with what you're saying. No debate there. I don't think I was ever arguing you about what PC has done so far this year. He's clearly trying to do something. HOWEVER, did what he did to do something...were THOSE the right things to do? Is Larsson all he could have gotten for Hall...? You can't be telling me the other 28 GMs in the NHL did not at least kick at the tires and offer a more established top-pairing D-man? Goalie? Why Gus? Why not the other players available?
Anyhoo...like I said...it's a boring off-season and well, we gotta yammer about something. May as well be about the Oilers. Cuz, dom ain't here to talk Reefs.
Trolling Canuckistan
Better to be one of the worst, then be one of the best with criminals in the lineup
You're trying too hard. They made some moves, so you can't pick on them for that. They broke up "the core", so you can't pick on them for that. They're trying new things, so you can't pick on them for that. They pick up a backup- backup goalie and that's what you're going after now? C'mon, yumcha. You can do better.
and you don't need to tell me about goalies being able to get injured... guess what cost the Oilers the cup in 05/06...
You're trying too hard. They made some moves, so you can't pick on them for that. They broke up "the core", so you can't pick on them for that. They're trying new things, so you can't pick on them for that. They pick up a backup- backup goalie and that's what you're going after now? C'mon, yumcha. You can do better.
and you don't need to tell me about goalies being able to get injured... guess what cost the Oilers the cup in 05/06...
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97BlackAckCL (07-20-2016)
LFG RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!
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I hope they don't trade Kreider.
Rangers GM Jeff Gorton indicated that he may not be done trading this offseason .
Yesterday’s move is the type of deal they would need to make if they wanted clear the cap space for a potential $6 million plus extension for a puck moving defenseman like Kevin Shattenkirk. The Rangers would want an extension in place in any Shattenkirk deal. Would the Rangers include Chris Kreider in a deal for Shattenkirk?The Rangers are looking to get younger and faster“There’s a lot of perception you’ve got to overhaul the team, but I’m not sure how realistic that is,” he said. “I wouldn’t say I’m sitting here mandated to change 10 things.” Finding potential trades isn’t easy, but Gorton will continue to work on it.“It’s been somewhat difficult to find the right deals to make us better, and that’s why you see a lot of guys back right now,” Gorton said. “And we’ll continue to look at things to make ourselves better all the time.”
Rangers GM Jeff Gorton indicated that he may not be done trading this offseason .
Yesterday’s move is the type of deal they would need to make if they wanted clear the cap space for a potential $6 million plus extension for a puck moving defenseman like Kevin Shattenkirk. The Rangers would want an extension in place in any Shattenkirk deal. Would the Rangers include Chris Kreider in a deal for Shattenkirk?The Rangers are looking to get younger and faster“There’s a lot of perception you’ve got to overhaul the team, but I’m not sure how realistic that is,” he said. “I wouldn’t say I’m sitting here mandated to change 10 things.” Finding potential trades isn’t easy, but Gorton will continue to work on it.“It’s been somewhat difficult to find the right deals to make us better, and that’s why you see a lot of guys back right now,” Gorton said. “And we’ll continue to look at things to make ourselves better all the time.”
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^^^^
Ask Yummy...
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Tell the Honda forum that I'll offer srika and a 2nd rounder for their token Kings fan.
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97BlackAckCL (07-20-2016)
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srika when he's not acting as the keeper of the cup is also the ice crew girl who skates around in skirts and cleans the ice during TV breaks...
If we had the scoring line of wstevens, jonesi and moogy, we'd be unstoppable!
Trolling Canuckistan
Rounder is the equipment manager, he knows everyone's stick length and jockstrap size
Last edited by black label; 07-20-2016 at 01:20 PM.
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I knew I was forgetting someone!
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FWIW, I agree with what you're saying. No debate there. I don't think I was ever arguing you about what PC has done so far this year. He's clearly trying to do something. HOWEVER, did what he did to do something...were THOSE the right things to do? Is Larsson all he could have gotten for Hall...? You can't be telling me the other 28 GMs in the NHL did not at least kick at the tires and offer a more established top-pairing D-man? Goalie? Why Gus? Why not the other players available?
Anyhoo...like I said...it's a boring off-season and well, we gotta yammer about something. May as well be about the Oilers. Cuz, dom ain't here to talk Reefs.
Anyhoo...like I said...it's a boring off-season and well, we gotta yammer about something. May as well be about the Oilers. Cuz, dom ain't here to talk Reefs.
Think of it this way- you're a GM of a team. You're looking to improve your lineup and are literally on the short end of any deal. You are desperate to get good players. You don't have a ton to offer, though.
There are 29 other GMs around you. None of them are stupid. They all know you need D-men. Big time. You think they'll just hand them over? I'd expect nothing else than for you to be held up by your ankles and shook down for every single penny in your pockets.
It was thoroughly pointed out that PC TRIED to trade other guys, other than Hall. No one was biting. The 29 other GMs wanted the best of the best, and with Edmonton's "core" all having salaries pretty close together, there was little reason to look at #2 in the lineup.
You're living in a fantasy world, yumcha. It's easy to be a backseat GM, saying stuff like "well, they should just do this", but when you're at the front, making those million dollar decisions, it becomes MUCH harder in an instant.
And you're only looking at part of the equation. Maybe Hall for Larsson wasn't a good trade on paper, however, that was only step 1. Step 2 was signing looocheeeech. So now we lost one forward, gained some much needed defense, and signed another forward to replace the one forward we lost. It's actually a better situation to be in then we were before. So while Hall put up more points than Looocheeeech, it's not like Edmonton was left empty handed. Listening to the radio here, it sounds like Hall was ahead of Looch by about 15 points. That 15 points doesn't even necessarily have to be made up... if Larsson can shut down even 20% more plays/goals from happening, that alone is worth it. The oilers lost a ton of games by only 1 goal last year.
Hall also wasn't as great as he was made out to be. His 2 way game was horrendous. He made lots of turnovers and like the majority of the rest of the team, a pushover on the ice. Looooooch may not have the points, but he also fills some much needed gaps that Hall couldn't.
We've also picked up that puljijarvi kid. He's worth something and will likely easily make up that 15 point deficit between Hall vs Loooooch. There's no denying that the oilers are already in a much better position than last year. Will they actually improve? well... I'm not holding my breath
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You might be right... but you're probably wrong.
Think of it this way- you're a GM of a team. You're looking to improve your lineup and are literally on the short end of any deal. You are desperate to get good players. You don't have a ton to offer, though.
There are 29 other GMs around you. None of them are stupid. They all know you need D-men. Big time. You think they'll just hand them over? I'd expect nothing else than for you to be held up by your ankles and shook down for every single penny in your pockets.
It was thoroughly pointed out that PC TRIED to trade other guys, other than Hall. No one was biting. The 29 other GMs wanted the best of the best, and with Edmonton's "core" all having salaries pretty close together, there was little reason to look at #2 in the lineup.
You're living in a fantasy world, yumcha. It's easy to be a backseat GM, saying stuff like "well, they should just do this", but when you're at the front, making those million dollar decisions, it becomes MUCH harder in an instant.
And you're only looking at part of the equation. Maybe Hall for Larsson wasn't a good trade on paper, however, that was only step 1. Step 2 was signing looocheeeech. So now we lost one forward, gained some much needed defense, and signed another forward to replace the one forward we lost. It's actually a better situation to be in then we were before. So while Hall put up more points than Looocheeeech, it's not like Edmonton was left empty handed. Listening to the radio here, it sounds like Hall was ahead of Looch by about 15 points. That 15 points doesn't even necessarily have to be made up... if Larsson can shut down even 20% more plays/goals from happening, that alone is worth it. The oilers lost a ton of games by only 1 goal last year.
Hall also wasn't as great as he was made out to be. His 2 way game was horrendous. He made lots of turnovers and like the majority of the rest of the team, a pushover on the ice. Looooooch may not have the points, but he also fills some much needed gaps that Hall couldn't.
We've also picked up that puljijarvi kid. He's worth something and will likely easily make up that 15 point deficit between Hall vs Loooooch. There's no denying that the oilers are already in a much better position than last year. Will they actually improve? well... I'm not holding my breath
Think of it this way- you're a GM of a team. You're looking to improve your lineup and are literally on the short end of any deal. You are desperate to get good players. You don't have a ton to offer, though.
There are 29 other GMs around you. None of them are stupid. They all know you need D-men. Big time. You think they'll just hand them over? I'd expect nothing else than for you to be held up by your ankles and shook down for every single penny in your pockets.
It was thoroughly pointed out that PC TRIED to trade other guys, other than Hall. No one was biting. The 29 other GMs wanted the best of the best, and with Edmonton's "core" all having salaries pretty close together, there was little reason to look at #2 in the lineup.
You're living in a fantasy world, yumcha. It's easy to be a backseat GM, saying stuff like "well, they should just do this", but when you're at the front, making those million dollar decisions, it becomes MUCH harder in an instant.
And you're only looking at part of the equation. Maybe Hall for Larsson wasn't a good trade on paper, however, that was only step 1. Step 2 was signing looocheeeech. So now we lost one forward, gained some much needed defense, and signed another forward to replace the one forward we lost. It's actually a better situation to be in then we were before. So while Hall put up more points than Looocheeeech, it's not like Edmonton was left empty handed. Listening to the radio here, it sounds like Hall was ahead of Looch by about 15 points. That 15 points doesn't even necessarily have to be made up... if Larsson can shut down even 20% more plays/goals from happening, that alone is worth it. The oilers lost a ton of games by only 1 goal last year.
Hall also wasn't as great as he was made out to be. His 2 way game was horrendous. He made lots of turnovers and like the majority of the rest of the team, a pushover on the ice. Looooooch may not have the points, but he also fills some much needed gaps that Hall couldn't.
We've also picked up that puljijarvi kid. He's worth something and will likely easily make up that 15 point deficit between Hall vs Loooooch. There's no denying that the oilers are already in a much better position than last year. Will they actually improve? well... I'm not holding my breath
Anyways, FWIW, it will be interesting to see what product the Oilers are this coming season. After all, your lovely tax dollars are paying for Katz's new playground and so, hopefully, the squad does not stink up the entire joint and all the buildings around it.
As for the new kid, there was already another Parjarrvi the Oil ran out of town. I wonder if this one who spells his name different will turn out better? I just know this: Unless he's the second coming of a generational player like McJesus, the Oilers better not rush him. I would start him in the AHL.
Team Owner
Yes, the oilers organization, along with all of their fans, really care what you think the oilers weren't gifted anything. They beat the odds and won. They had better or worse chances than the other teams surrounding them and they just so happened to win. Statistics. Shit happens.
Oh Yummy...
And at this point who cares who owns the arena. If the tax payers didn't pony up the cash, we'd be watching the Seattle Oilers, or Quebec Oilers. And even if the owner got a sweet deal, Edmonton as a whole got a lot too- a shit ton of construction jobs, plus the huge amount of development in the area that the arena has spawned. You see it as a loss. We see it as a win. This city also saw it as a small price to pay to keep a team in town- one of the only forms of entertainment through 5 months of the brutally cold hear. You don't have to agree with it or like it. But the decision has been made, many are happy, and your opinion on the subject doesn't matter!
Oh Yummy...
And at this point who cares who owns the arena. If the tax payers didn't pony up the cash, we'd be watching the Seattle Oilers, or Quebec Oilers. And even if the owner got a sweet deal, Edmonton as a whole got a lot too- a shit ton of construction jobs, plus the huge amount of development in the area that the arena has spawned. You see it as a loss. We see it as a win. This city also saw it as a small price to pay to keep a team in town- one of the only forms of entertainment through 5 months of the brutally cold hear. You don't have to agree with it or like it. But the decision has been made, many are happy, and your opinion on the subject doesn't matter!
Last edited by TacoBello; 07-20-2016 at 02:45 PM.
LFG RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yes, the oilers organization, along with all of their fans, really care what you think the oilers weren't gifted anything. They beat the odds and won. They had better or worse chances than the other teams surrounding them and they just so happened to win. Statistics. Shit happens.
Oh Yummy...
And at this point who cares who owns the arena. If the tax payers didn't pony up the cash, we'd be watching the Seattle Oilers, or Quebec Oilers. And even if the owner got a sweet deal, Edmonton as a whole got a lot too- a shit ton of construction jobs, plus the huge amount of development in the area that the arena has spawned. You see it as a loss. We see it as a win. This city also saw it as a small price to pay to keep a team in town- one of the only forms of entertainment through 5 months of the brutally cold hear. You don't have to agree with it or like it. But the decision has been made, many are happy, and your opinion on the subject doesn't matter!
Oh Yummy...
And at this point who cares who owns the arena. If the tax payers didn't pony up the cash, we'd be watching the Seattle Oilers, or Quebec Oilers. And even if the owner got a sweet deal, Edmonton as a whole got a lot too- a shit ton of construction jobs, plus the huge amount of development in the area that the arena has spawned. You see it as a loss. We see it as a win. This city also saw it as a small price to pay to keep a team in town- one of the only forms of entertainment through 5 months of the brutally cold hear. You don't have to agree with it or like it. But the decision has been made, many are happy, and your opinion on the subject doesn't matter!
I live in Phoenix, I am not from here, I don't give 1/2 a f00k aboot football or the Cardinals. I pay towards a tax for their stadium. That pisses me off!
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In Pittsburgh, we voted no on paying to build 2 new stadiums with tax payer dollars, and they built them with tax payer dollars anyway
Senior Moderator
Yes, the oilers organization, along with all of their fans, really care what you think the oilers weren't gifted anything. They beat the odds and won. They had better or worse chances than the other teams surrounding them and they just so happened to win. Statistics. Shit happens.
Oh Yummy...
And at this point who cares who owns the arena. If the tax payers didn't pony up the cash, we'd be watching the Seattle Oilers, or Quebec Oilers. And even if the owner got a sweet deal, Edmonton as a whole got a lot too- a shit ton of construction jobs, plus the huge amount of development in the area that the arena has spawned. You see it as a loss. We see it as a win. This city also saw it as a small price to pay to keep a team in town- one of the only forms of entertainment through 5 months of the brutally cold hear. You don't have to agree with it or like it. But the decision has been made, many are happy, and your opinion on the subject doesn't matter!
Oh Yummy...
And at this point who cares who owns the arena. If the tax payers didn't pony up the cash, we'd be watching the Seattle Oilers, or Quebec Oilers. And even if the owner got a sweet deal, Edmonton as a whole got a lot too- a shit ton of construction jobs, plus the huge amount of development in the area that the arena has spawned. You see it as a loss. We see it as a win. This city also saw it as a small price to pay to keep a team in town- one of the only forms of entertainment through 5 months of the brutally cold hear. You don't have to agree with it or like it. But the decision has been made, many are happy, and your opinion on the subject doesn't matter!
And of course, why would I be deluded enough to think what Edmontonians or Oilers fans think?
My opinion, duh. Why is that even a point in this? Like I said, just discussion...and part of it has alot to do that I find it amusing to watch the team burn. But, it's just a discussion? And I dunno how happy "many are happy" truly are. Has there actually been a study how the citizens of the city feel about paying for the Ice District? Given the economy issues in the province and with jobs, does paying for a billionaire's play thing actually resonate as a good thing? If you say so...but, I would suggest that I am not sure if it's that well-received given how the economy is these days.
Oh look, price of oil went down.
Team Owner
Unfortunately, it's not all about you. I'm guessing that collectively, this was something wanted by much of the city. You can never please everyone. And when it comes down to where our tax dollars are being spent, I've come to the harsh realization that it's best not to lose sleep over it, unless you plan to run for office and make changes.
I have zero desire to be in politics. I have zero desire to push for change. As such, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It's not like the city as a whole doesn't get any benefits out of the new facility. With our local economy being in the shitter right now, these projects also help create and maintain a few thousand full time jobs, which also result in food on people's tables. That's not a bad thing. With the additional development that such a mega project spurs on, it creates even more jobs, opportunities, businesses, you name it. I'll take it all
I have zero desire to be in politics. I have zero desire to push for change. As such, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It's not like the city as a whole doesn't get any benefits out of the new facility. With our local economy being in the shitter right now, these projects also help create and maintain a few thousand full time jobs, which also result in food on people's tables. That's not a bad thing. With the additional development that such a mega project spurs on, it creates even more jobs, opportunities, businesses, you name it. I'll take it all
Senior Moderator
Unless the city OWNS the team, like Green Bay, I do not think the citizens need to pony up for a new stadium/arena. It's stupid. The rich get richer.
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97BlackAckCL (07-21-2016)
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Gifted.
And of course, why would I be deluded enough to think what Edmontonians or Oilers fans think?
My opinion, duh. Why is that even a point in this? Like I said, just discussion...and part of it has alot to do that I find it amusing to watch the team burn. But, it's just a discussion? And I dunno how happy "many are happy" truly are. Has there actually been a study how the citizens of the city feel about paying for the Ice District? Given the economy issues in the province and with jobs, does paying for a billionaire's play thing actually resonate as a good thing? If you say so...but, I would suggest that I am not sure if it's that well-received given how the economy is these days.
Oh look, price of oil went down.
And of course, why would I be deluded enough to think what Edmontonians or Oilers fans think?
My opinion, duh. Why is that even a point in this? Like I said, just discussion...and part of it has alot to do that I find it amusing to watch the team burn. But, it's just a discussion? And I dunno how happy "many are happy" truly are. Has there actually been a study how the citizens of the city feel about paying for the Ice District? Given the economy issues in the province and with jobs, does paying for a billionaire's play thing actually resonate as a good thing? If you say so...but, I would suggest that I am not sure if it's that well-received given how the economy is these days.
Oh look, price of oil went down.
Im sure you've talked to one or two people from around here, and as such, now have a full in depth view on the project. Many are happy the team is staying. That is a fact. Plus, the money was all dedicated prior to the economy taking a dump, so your argument doesn't make sense. Me thinks you're drawing at strings here, just to make any argument you can. Unfortunately, they aren't holding much water
Senior Moderator
Unfortunately, it's not all about you. I'm guessing that collectively, this was something wanted by much of the city. You can never please everyone. And when it comes down to where our tax dollars are being spent, I've come to the harsh realization that it's best not to lose sleep over it, unless you plan to run for office and make changes.
I have zero desire to be in politics. I have zero desire to push for change. As such, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It's not like the city as a whole doesn't get any benefits out of the new facility. With our local economy being in the shitter right now, these projects also help create and maintain a few thousand full time jobs, which also result in food on people's tables. That's not a bad thing. With the additional development that such a mega project spurs on, it creates even more jobs, opportunities, businesses, you name it. I'll take it all
I have zero desire to be in politics. I have zero desire to push for change. As such, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It's not like the city as a whole doesn't get any benefits out of the new facility. With our local economy being in the shitter right now, these projects also help create and maintain a few thousand full time jobs, which also result in food on people's tables. That's not a bad thing. With the additional development that such a mega project spurs on, it creates even more jobs, opportunities, businesses, you name it. I'll take it all
Look, I know it's your city's team...but, don't take it personally. It's not YOU who ran it into the ground...I'm not laughing at YOU. So, if I choose to laugh my head off watching the Oilers continue to faceplant, it's not YOU...it's the team and the idiots who are running the team are doing. AND THEN, they want you to pay for the arena they are demanding...despite icing a product that is horrid.
Anyways, all good...Just a slow off-season.
Senior Moderator
sounds to me like someone is jealous of a certain billionaire
Im sure you've talked to one or two people from around here, and as such, now have a full in depth view on the project. Many are happy the team is staying. That is a fact. Plus, the money was all dedicated prior to the economy taking a dump, so your argument doesn't make sense. Me thinks you're drawing at strings here, just to make any argument you can. Unfortunately, they aren't holding much water
Im sure you've talked to one or two people from around here, and as such, now have a full in depth view on the project. Many are happy the team is staying. That is a fact. Plus, the money was all dedicated prior to the economy taking a dump, so your argument doesn't make sense. Me thinks you're drawing at strings here, just to make any argument you can. Unfortunately, they aren't holding much water
I'm shallow. I love money. Duh.
What strings am I drawing that you're having issues with though?
Team Owner
well that settles that argument. You are just bitter. Who cares what his bank account looks like. He worked hard to be where he is today. I'm not a fan of him, but there's no denying He's also doing this city a favor by keeping their beloved team a) financially stable, and b) in town.
Lets to not forget that the existing arena was 30 years old and in desperate need of replacement. Not many people are willing to pony up 400-500M to keep a team in town, for which it will take a very very long time to earn that money back... And by the time they do... The arena will likely need to be replaced again anyway.
Lets to not forget that the existing arena was 30 years old and in desperate need of replacement. Not many people are willing to pony up 400-500M to keep a team in town, for which it will take a very very long time to earn that money back... And by the time they do... The arena will likely need to be replaced again anyway.
Senior Moderator
well that settles that argument. You are just bitter. Who cares what his bank account looks like. He worked hard to be where he is today. I'm not a fan of him, but there's no denying He's also doing this city a favor by keeping their beloved team a) financially stable, and b) in town.
Lets to not forget that the existing arena was 30 years old and in desperate need of replacement. Not many people are willing to pony up 400-500M to keep a team in town, for which it will take a very very long time to earn that money back... And by the time they do... The arena will likely need to be replaced again anyway.
Lets to not forget that the existing arena was 30 years old and in desperate need of replacement. Not many people are willing to pony up 400-500M to keep a team in town, for which it will take a very very long time to earn that money back... And by the time they do... The arena will likely need to be replaced again anyway.
The losing game of publicly financed sports venues
The people of Quebec City and Edmonton are falling prey to one of the oldest con games – the notion that spending public money on pro sports venues is a sound investment.
Facts don’t seem to matter in this game. And your city could be fleeced next.
Stacks of independent research over many decades have shown that building a stadium or luring a new franchise does little for a city’s economy. They typically don’t generate significant new tax dollars, jobs or growth. In most cases, the money would be more wisely spent on badly needed public infrastructure, such as roads, transit or schools.
And yet, governments serially ignore the evidence and continue to shower subsidies on team owners and their media partners.
In Quebec City and Edmonton, governments are currently sinking hundreds of millions of dollars into new arenas. In Quebec City’s case, the aim is to attract an NHL franchise. The rationale in Edmonton is to keep its team, the Oilers, from leaving.
Gobs of taxpayer cash will similarly be needed if Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre gets his wish of bringing professional baseball back to the city. The price tag for buying a franchise and building a new baseball stadium – presumably, a domed one – will top $1-billion. And it won’t happen unless taxpayers pick up a big chunk of the tab.
So why are governments so gullible?
The simple answer is that sport subsidies are a political winner.
They’re sold as investments in the economy. But it’s really about civic pride, the thrill of the game and cheering for the home team.
Montrealers, for example, overwhelmingly support the idea of bringing baseball back to their city more than decade after the Expos left for Washington, D.C., according to a recent Abacus Data poll. Nearly 90 per cent of 500 residents surveyed expressed varying levels of support, ranging from lukewarm to strong. Just 12 per cent are against it. Roughly eight out of 10 respondents said Major League Baseball would be good for the economy and generate more taxes for the city.
The reality is quite the opposite, according to numerous independent economic studies conducted over several decades in North America.
“The weight of economic evidence … shows that taxpayers spend a lot of money and ultimately don’t get much back,” according to a 2001 study, “Should Cities Pay for Sports Facilities?” for the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. “And when this paltry return is compared with other potential uses of the funds, the investment, almost always, seems unwise.”
The subsidies rarely stop once the venues are up and running. Billions of dollars a year in hidden subsidies flow to existing sport venues, according to a 2012 book by Judith Grant Long, now an associate professor of sports management at the University of Michigan. In her book, Public-Private Partnerships for Major League Sports Facilities, Ms. Grant Long found that taxpayers are subsidizing 78 per cent of the average professional sports facility in Canada and the U.S.
Earlier this year, U.S. President Barack Obama moved in his budget to close down one financial vehicle that has encouraged subsidies by barring the use of tax-exempt bonds to finance professional sports facilities. In Canada, governments often fund the projects directly from their own coffers, tapping into lower government borrowing costs.
The real story, however, may be that the main beneficiaries of government largesse are team owners.
Quebec City’s $400-million Centre Vidéotron was built with a combination of municipal and provincial government money. It’s slated to open this fall, a lure for an eventual NHL franchise sought by Videotron owner Quebecor Inc., controlled by Parti Québécois Leader Pierre Karl Péladeau.
The cost of Edmonton’s $480-million Rogers Place arena, due to open in time for the 2016-17 NHL season, is being split between the city and wealthy team owner Daryl Katz, who had earlier threatened to move the Oilers to Seattle.
Mr. Katz, who also owns the Rexall pharmacy chain, is now poised to cash in with a massive mixed-used residential, office and entertainment development he’s planning for the surrounding area, dubbed “The Ice District.” The $2-billion project will include 1,000 residential units, 1.3 million square feet of office space in skyscrapers that will rank among the tallest buildings in Western Canada, a luxury hotel and a public plaza with an outdoor skating rink, casino, restaurants and stores.
The private development wouldn’t make much sense without the subsidized Rogers Place as its anchor. And businesses elsewhere will lose as customers inevitably migrate to the new entertainment area, making the deal a wash on the city’s tax ledger.
This losing scenario will play out in your city too unless someone stands up and says, enough.
The people of Quebec City and Edmonton are falling prey to one of the oldest con games – the notion that spending public money on pro sports venues is a sound investment.
Facts don’t seem to matter in this game. And your city could be fleeced next.
Stacks of independent research over many decades have shown that building a stadium or luring a new franchise does little for a city’s economy. They typically don’t generate significant new tax dollars, jobs or growth. In most cases, the money would be more wisely spent on badly needed public infrastructure, such as roads, transit or schools.
And yet, governments serially ignore the evidence and continue to shower subsidies on team owners and their media partners.
In Quebec City and Edmonton, governments are currently sinking hundreds of millions of dollars into new arenas. In Quebec City’s case, the aim is to attract an NHL franchise. The rationale in Edmonton is to keep its team, the Oilers, from leaving.
Gobs of taxpayer cash will similarly be needed if Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre gets his wish of bringing professional baseball back to the city. The price tag for buying a franchise and building a new baseball stadium – presumably, a domed one – will top $1-billion. And it won’t happen unless taxpayers pick up a big chunk of the tab.
So why are governments so gullible?
The simple answer is that sport subsidies are a political winner.
They’re sold as investments in the economy. But it’s really about civic pride, the thrill of the game and cheering for the home team.
Montrealers, for example, overwhelmingly support the idea of bringing baseball back to their city more than decade after the Expos left for Washington, D.C., according to a recent Abacus Data poll. Nearly 90 per cent of 500 residents surveyed expressed varying levels of support, ranging from lukewarm to strong. Just 12 per cent are against it. Roughly eight out of 10 respondents said Major League Baseball would be good for the economy and generate more taxes for the city.
The reality is quite the opposite, according to numerous independent economic studies conducted over several decades in North America.
“The weight of economic evidence … shows that taxpayers spend a lot of money and ultimately don’t get much back,” according to a 2001 study, “Should Cities Pay for Sports Facilities?” for the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. “And when this paltry return is compared with other potential uses of the funds, the investment, almost always, seems unwise.”
The subsidies rarely stop once the venues are up and running. Billions of dollars a year in hidden subsidies flow to existing sport venues, according to a 2012 book by Judith Grant Long, now an associate professor of sports management at the University of Michigan. In her book, Public-Private Partnerships for Major League Sports Facilities, Ms. Grant Long found that taxpayers are subsidizing 78 per cent of the average professional sports facility in Canada and the U.S.
Earlier this year, U.S. President Barack Obama moved in his budget to close down one financial vehicle that has encouraged subsidies by barring the use of tax-exempt bonds to finance professional sports facilities. In Canada, governments often fund the projects directly from their own coffers, tapping into lower government borrowing costs.
The real story, however, may be that the main beneficiaries of government largesse are team owners.
Quebec City’s $400-million Centre Vidéotron was built with a combination of municipal and provincial government money. It’s slated to open this fall, a lure for an eventual NHL franchise sought by Videotron owner Quebecor Inc., controlled by Parti Québécois Leader Pierre Karl Péladeau.
The cost of Edmonton’s $480-million Rogers Place arena, due to open in time for the 2016-17 NHL season, is being split between the city and wealthy team owner Daryl Katz, who had earlier threatened to move the Oilers to Seattle.
Mr. Katz, who also owns the Rexall pharmacy chain, is now poised to cash in with a massive mixed-used residential, office and entertainment development he’s planning for the surrounding area, dubbed “The Ice District.” The $2-billion project will include 1,000 residential units, 1.3 million square feet of office space in skyscrapers that will rank among the tallest buildings in Western Canada, a luxury hotel and a public plaza with an outdoor skating rink, casino, restaurants and stores.
The private development wouldn’t make much sense without the subsidized Rogers Place as its anchor. And businesses elsewhere will lose as customers inevitably migrate to the new entertainment area, making the deal a wash on the city’s tax ledger.
This losing scenario will play out in your city too unless someone stands up and says, enough.
Team Owner
youre saying we are spending money when the economy is in the tank. That isn't the case at all. The money was put up front, prior to the economy taking a dive. If anything, a project like this is keeping people working. Otherwise it'd be more people lining up at the food bank and the economy being in an even worse state.
Senior Moderator
It's a myth that a city paying for a billionaire's plaything "generates $$$$"...We even covered this in business skoo back in the day.
Senior Moderator
youre saying we are spending money when the economy is in the tank. That isn't the case at all. The money was put up front, prior to the economy taking a dive. If anything, a project like this is keeping people working. Otherwise it'd be more people lining up at the food bank and the economy being in an even worse state.
Anyways, lemme be clear; If I'm striking a nerve, it was not intended. My ridicule is at the team. Not YOU. So, we clear on that? Cuz, I'm not repeating the ER BS that you and I had a few months back. Although, I think our roles were reversed...maybe?
Senior Moderator
More links:
The losing game of publicly financed sports venues - The Globe and Mail
Sports Stadiums Are Bad Public Investments. So Why Are Cities Still Paying for Them? - Reason.com
Katz, like other owners, held the city at gunpoint and "threatened" to move. And of course, as usual, the city blinked. I GET why the city ponied up...pride for the team. Love for the franchise. History and etc. I get it.
But, as far as economic benefits are concerned, I maintain that it's meh. And the studies back it up.
The losing game of publicly financed sports venues - The Globe and Mail
Sports Stadiums Are Bad Public Investments. So Why Are Cities Still Paying for Them? - Reason.com
Katz, like other owners, held the city at gunpoint and "threatened" to move. And of course, as usual, the city blinked. I GET why the city ponied up...pride for the team. Love for the franchise. History and etc. I get it.
But, as far as economic benefits are concerned, I maintain that it's meh. And the studies back it up.
Team Owner
Dude...No offense, I think you need to do your homework. Cities paying for arenas does NOT generate $$$...I've read it many many times before and here's one from the Canadian press that states why it is not favors to Edmonton for financing Katz's hobby:
Link: The losing game of publicly financed sports venues - The Globe and Mail
Link: The losing game of publicly financed sports venues - The Globe and Mail
This is article speaks to taxes coming in... I haven't said a word about tax generation.
Did the article also mention that Katz put up a new office tower, for the entire city of Edmonton (the departments, not actual citizens ) to move in to? Because now they are spread amongst 5 buildings, on random floors, in cubicle cities. It's highly ineffective and bringing it all together is one thing that people were crying for.
If if you think this arena has had no impact on its surroundings, I'd have to say you're completely wrong. I personally know about a dozen people who still have jobs because of this project. I see new businesses and buildings popping up, all around. There's also the people working at the arena once it opens, etc (thone jobs would be lost, if the team was shipped to Seattle), etc, etc.
Katz also put up a lot of his own money. 100M I believe. But then you say "yeah but he's worth billions!" That's nice. But being worth a billion is not the same as having a billion, which I'm willing to bet that at the time, he didn't have. Now that he sold his pharmacies, yeah, likely. But not when the deal was penned.
LFG RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!
iTrader: (6)
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97BlackAckCL (07-21-2016)
Senior Moderator
i never once said it does generate money. I said it generates jobs and money for people working those jobs. If you think arenas will be any different anywhere around NA in the future, you're wrong. Everyone wants the greatest and best building with the best finishes and tech and whatever. Katz is a developer and he is developing downtown, which this city needs. Badly. Our downtown is a dump.
This is article speaks to taxes coming in... I haven't said a word about tax generation.
Did the article also mention that Katz put up a new office tower, for the entire city of Edmonton (the departments, not actual citizens ) to move in to? Because now they are spread amongst 5 buildings, on random floors, in cubicle cities. It's highly ineffective and bringing it all together is one thing that people were crying for.
If if you think this arena has had no impact on its surroundings, I'd have to say you're completely wrong. I personally know about a dozen people who still have jobs because of this project. I see new businesses and buildings popping up, all around. There's also the people working at the arena once it opens, etc (thone jobs would be lost, if the team was shipped to Seattle), etc, etc.
Katz also put up a lot of his own money. 100M I believe. But then you say "yeah but he's worth billions!" That's nice. But being worth a billion is not the same as having a billion, which I'm willing to bet that at the time, he didn't have. Now that he sold his pharmacies, yeah, likely. But not when the deal was penned.
This is article speaks to taxes coming in... I haven't said a word about tax generation.
Did the article also mention that Katz put up a new office tower, for the entire city of Edmonton (the departments, not actual citizens ) to move in to? Because now they are spread amongst 5 buildings, on random floors, in cubicle cities. It's highly ineffective and bringing it all together is one thing that people were crying for.
If if you think this arena has had no impact on its surroundings, I'd have to say you're completely wrong. I personally know about a dozen people who still have jobs because of this project. I see new businesses and buildings popping up, all around. There's also the people working at the arena once it opens, etc (thone jobs would be lost, if the team was shipped to Seattle), etc, etc.
Katz also put up a lot of his own money. 100M I believe. But then you say "yeah but he's worth billions!" That's nice. But being worth a billion is not the same as having a billion, which I'm willing to bet that at the time, he didn't have. Now that he sold his pharmacies, yeah, likely. But not when the deal was penned.
I think you are blending in my thumbsdown about taxpayers PAYING for the arena versus me saying the new Ice District will have ZERO benefit for the city. Different things. Of course a new arena and all the development WILL bring about some amazing things to the city. No kidding! Heck, it better at that price tag. But, the point is, why are you guys footing the bill?
It's a rhetorical question because, well, rich billionaires usually get their way. But, just saying, it's wrong.
Senior Moderator
Richards Brad done with hockey: Richards retires after 15-season NHL career - Article - TSN
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97BlackAckCL (07-21-2016)