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^ Yup...agree. The big test for Elon is when Merc, BMW, and Audi have e-cars fully integrated into their fleet.
I'd like to see how Tesla maintains their sales and stock value by then. It'd be interesting. Again, if I'm getting electric (likely will as a next car), it won't be Tesla...it'll be a German product and perhaps Japanese if say, Lexus gets into the act properly.
There in lies the problem. “When everyone has a true Model 3,Y, X competitor”. May be never ....
No one else has their own battery factory yet, so they rely on third party supplied batteries, they have to sell through dealerships (15-20% cost penalty), they have to use third party charging network- which will run on profit for the respective firm (EA or whatever else - compare their charges to Tesla SC). None have produced a comparable pre production model, even if they manage to compete on price, they will have to eat the ever slimmer profit. None of them have a vertically integrated production method, they rely on third party vendors for all crucial parts (so lost revenue there as well).
Now any sane person can imagine which one will be cheaper to own and operate. Tesla or the “others”?
Only the luxury branded manufacturers can claim much higher prices and get away with it (thereby keeping their bottom line secure- for sometime).
For an average cost conscious EV customer, there’s Tesla or nothing (Even Rivian is super expensive compared to Tesla).
Key word. Also, Tesla also buys batteries from Panasonic.
Tesla isn't cheap, a Model 3 is still a $55k-$60k car. If you're saying that other automakers have to pay a 15-20% penalty for dealership costs, imagine what happens when one of them goes the Tesla route. Now a BMW is 20% cheaper than a Tesla, then the fun begins for Elon.
How is Rivian super expensive compared to Tesla? They haven't even announced pricing.
In yet another example of how well integrated, and customizable Tesla’s are and their constant quest to find efficiency improvements the latest update can disable the passenger side air vents when the sensor detects that the seat is unoccupied thereby reducing power usage and improving range.
Most cars have lots of isolated ECUs and controllers that don’t talk to each other make an upgrade like this impossible to enable after the car is released, actually LOL at other cars even having the capability to be updated.
all other manufacturers are so far behind Tesla and are using inferior third party parts in a desperate attempt to be competitive, they might as well get their EVs components from the company that has the best EV tech on the market. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em
if I'm getting electric (likely will as a next car), it won't be Tesla...it'll be a German product and perhaps Japanese if say, Lexus gets into the act properly.
am i missing something.. Tesla is cheap now? and what does manuf structure and suppliers have to do with being a specific car model's competitor?
if you removed the word Tesla, i thought you were talking about Honda or Toyota. a Model 3 performance lease, with 4500 down is about 830 with tax included... you can get a M3/M4 for the same price... Actually you can get a M3 for cheaper.
Same as Model S and Y and X.... they are not any cheaper... despite all the alleged "advantages" you said they have...
Also When you can afford to buy a $70-100k car, which one is cheaper to own should not even be part of the consideration, gas or electric cars alike.
EVs are going to be the future. Tesla will be the cheapest EV for the given range / performance / and features. I agree that German brands costing upwards of 70K -100K may be able to match a Tesla costing much less.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1
Key word. Also, Tesla also buys batteries from Panasonic.
Difference is; buying food from your favorite restaurant vs employing that chef in your own kitchen. Which one is cheaper? You tell me.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1
Tesla isn't cheap, a Model 3 is still a $55k-$60k car. If you're saying that other automakers have to pay a 15-20% penalty for dealership costs, imagine what happens when one of them goes the Tesla route. Now a BMW is 20% cheaper than a Tesla, then the fun begins for Elon.
.
EVs are not cheap compared to an ICE car for now. Yes the fun would really begin when we see the pricing of comparable EVs from these manufacturers. I would love to see a pure EV BMW of similar specs to model Y costing $50K. I may even buy it. . I would encourage every automaker to follow the Tesla route. But they seem to have a lot of inertia and face real obstacles in the form of Dealership lobby.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1
How is Rivian super expensive compared to Tesla? They haven't even announced pricing.
Rivian will cost slightly less than $69 -100K as announced by the manufacturer some time ago. The base model specs look like a non starter.
Because, I sat in a Tesla and personally, do not like the interior one bit. The performance, sure...impressive...but, if I'm getting that Model S with the rapper-mode, may as well consider Porsche's offering and be happier with the interior, performance, and the brand power.
Entry-level, Model 3? Nope...would rather be in the Audi e-tron.
EVs are going to be the future. Tesla will be the cheapest EV for the given range / performance / and features. I agree that German brands costing upwards of 70K -100K may be able to match a Tesla costing much less.
Got proof of this? Otherwise you're just making stuff up.
Originally Posted by Comfy
Difference is; buying food from your favorite restaurant vs employing that chef in your own kitchen. Which one is cheaper? You tell me.
What?
Originally Posted by Comfy
EVs are not cheap compared to an ICE car for now. Yes the fun would really begin when we see the pricing of comparable EVs from these manufacturers. I would love to see a pure EV BMW of similar specs to model Y costing $50K. I may even buy it. . I would encourage every automaker to follow the Tesla route. But they seem to have a lot of inertia and face real obstacles in the form of Dealership lobby.
Yes, the obstacles of the dealerships are there but it's obviously not insurmountable. Most automakers don't have the infrastructure to manage the sales and service load of such a large fleet so they turn to dealers to help provide that. It's something Tesla is going to get nailed with as they sell more and more cars. It already takes a long time to get parts and repairs done, as more cars hit the road it'll only get worse.
Originally Posted by Comfy
Rivian will cost slightly less than $69 -100K as announced by the manufacturer some time ago. The base model specs look like a non starter.
You have the official price and specs of that price? Otherwise you're just making stuff up.
Because, I sat in a Tesla and personally, do not like the interior one bit. The performance, sure...impressive...but, if I'm getting that Model S with the rapper-mode, may as well consider Porsche's offering and be happier with the interior, performance, and the brand power.
Entry-level, Model 3? Nope...would rather be in the Audi e-tron.
So interior is more important to you than all other benefits combined? More important than 50-100% more range, faster charging, access to an ever increasing number of thousands of super charging stations, Tesla can charge at any station an etron or Taycan can charge at plus every supercharger, an ever increasing list of features and improvements, the 2012 Model S is still getting new improvements every month.
I personally don't care about leather, not that much that I would give up a long and growing list of benefits for dead cow skin.
So interior is more important to you than all other benefits combined? More important than 50-100% more range, faster charging, access to an ever increasing number of thousands of super charging stations, Tesla can charge at any station an etron or Taycan can charge at plus every supercharger, an ever increasing list of features and improvements, the 2012 Model S is still getting new improvements every month.
I personally don't care about leather, not that much that I would give up a long and growing list of benefits for dead cow skin.
The extra range is nice, but honestly I wouldn't be taking the car on a road trip or anything so it doesn't really matter much. I'd rather sacrifice a bit of range and performance for refinement and build quality, which is what you see from many of the competitors. I totally get that some people prioritize the tech over the car, but I prefer more of a balance between the two. That's why I've got a deposit down for the upcoming XC40 EV rather than the Model Y, and would rather own a Polestar 2 over a Model 3.
Because, I sat in a Tesla and personally, do not like the interior one bit. The performance, sure...impressive...but, if I'm getting that Model S with the rapper-mode, may as well consider Porsche's offering and be happier with the interior, performance, and the brand power.
Entry-level, Model 3? Nope...would rather be in the Audi e-tron.
That is fine if you prefer that interior. It’s good to have a different varieties of electric vehicles to suit every taste.
Panasonic Corp (6752.T) plans to boost the energy density of “2170” battery cells it supplies to Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) by 20% in five years and commercialize a cobalt-free version “in two to three years”, the head of its U.S. EV battery business said.This is the first time Panasonic, a leading cell provider for the world’s top electric vehicle (EV) maker Tesla, has outlined these targets, putting down a marker in a highly competitive sector to stay ahead of the game.
Panasonic introduced the “2170” lithium-ion cells, with the nickel-cobalt-aluminium (NCA) cathode chemistry, for Tesla’s Model 3 in 2017. Researchers say it already has the highest energy density at above 700 watt-hour per litre.
With an even higher density, these cells could help increase how much an EV can run on a single charge, while also paving the way for smaller batteries and roomier car interiors.
A cobalt-free version on the other hand would cut reliance on a costly and controversial component, which makes batteries stable but poses ethical issues given controversial labour conditions in top producer the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk has long said he wants to move to zero-cobalt battery cells.
Panasonic has already cut cobalt content to under 5% in the NCA cathode and plans to improve its batteries in stages, its U.S. EV battery chief Yasuaki Takamoto told Reuters.
But the firm has declined to link its battery roadmap to Tesla’s future models.
Panasonic recently lost its status as Tesla’s exclusive battery supplier. The U.S. firm has partnered with South Korea’s LG Chem (051910.KS) and China’s CATL (300750.SZ).
CATL is supplying Tesla with low-cost lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries that contain no cobalt.
According to Takamoto, the average density of LFP battery cells is less than half the level of Panasonic’s latest NCA batteries. He did not name any companies.
‘2170’ CELLS
Panasonic has already developed technologies resulting in a more than 5% increase in the energy density of “2170” cells.
From September, the firm will start converting lines at its factory in Nevada that it operates with Tesla as it prepares to further boost the energy density of the cells, Takamoto said.
To control safety risks associated with higher density and less cobalt, Panasonic is adjusting the composition and design for better thermal stability, Takamoto said.
He also noted there will be various battery requirements coming into play as EV usage diversifies.
Tesla’s Musk has promised to reveal significant battery advances during a “Battery Day” presentation scheduled for Sept 22. Tesla plans to introduce an EV battery that will last one million miles later this year or early next, which it jointly developed with CATL.
So interior is more important to you than all other benefits combined? More important than 50-100% more range, faster charging, access to an ever increasing number of thousands of super charging stations, Tesla can charge at any station an etron or Taycan can charge at plus every supercharger, an ever increasing list of features and improvements, the 2012 Model S is still getting new improvements every month.
I personally don't care about leather, not that much that I would give up a long and growing list of benefits for dead cow skin.
in the real world, most of the ppl do not wait around to charge their EVs.... Tesla or Porsche... Most of the charging will be done at home overnight.
Most of these are city commuter cars ..
That is why Range and charging time within reasons are pretty much marketing tools, as least for now.
Now Built Quality, Interior and the solid German car feel is what you feel every day and every time you get into the car.
That is fine if you prefer that interior. It’s good to have a different varieties of electric vehicles to suit every taste.
That logic does seem to be the opposite of why he doesn't like Apple. Tesla is more like the function over form of the EV world, but I think their form is nice too.
So interior is more important to you than all other benefits combined? More important than 50-100% more range, faster charging, access to an ever increasing number of thousands of super charging stations, Tesla can charge at any station an etron or Taycan can charge at plus every supercharger, an ever increasing list of features and improvements, the 2012 Model S is still getting new improvements every month.
I personally don't care about leather, not that much that I would give up a long and growing list of benefits for dead cow skin.
FWIW, if I own an e-car, most of my charging will be at home...if I do a majorly long road trip, I'd have to probably plan logistics for charges but they'd be based around meal-times, overnights at my hotels...
I agree Tesla has the infrastructure currently but that's for now because the big guns from the automotive industry have not caught up yet. It's like saying that Palm, who was one of the first to get into the market for PDAs and smartphones somehow out-built what Sony and the other powerhouse electronic shops could offer, right? I'm not saying I don't believe in Tesla but their product does not do much for me. It's "neat"...but, it's like me possibly showing you a Grand Seiko timepiece, you'd shrug and yawn. Not your thing.
Interior is very much a big element of my car purchase. It's my cabin, it's where I want to be completely comfortable and blown away with the aesthetics, amenities, and features...I tried to like the giant tablet in the Tesla but just found it...awkward. If I want a purely digital cabin, I am very very happy with how Audi is doing theirs (as an example) and feels less like fusing a giant tablet into the middle of the car and saying voila. I spend pretty much most of my time inside a car when driving it and so, yeah...the interior is THAT important.
I mean, people buy cars for different purposes so, my requirements for being pampered inside a vehicle may not be as important to someone else, right? But yeah again, Tesla...neat. Unfortunately, does nothing for me.
That logic does seem to be the opposite of why he doesn't like Apple. Tesla is more like the function over form of the EV world, but I think their form is nice too.
My dislike for Kumquat is more based on outright devicism.
That will be quite a feat if they can change the chemical composition of physical batteries via software upgrades ...
You misunderstood me. What I meant is that the batteries for Model Y appear different than the one in model 3 (per Sandy Munro’s analysis). I’m just putting forward a theory that these are the new batteries already but Tesla is not announcing them. They might announce it at a later time, or simply increase the range in increments via software updates. I may be wrong too.
Logistics may be. They may not have enough of the new batteries to fill up the entire line up. And they don’t want any news like these to affect the sale of other models.
once they scale up the production enough to supply all models, then may be they’ll announce. This is just a conjecture though. Will probably have to wait till battery day anyways.
Last night our power went out and we were reminded little bit of how life was in the dark ages. Just wondering if Tesla cars can be used as a power back up device yet? I read something about it a few months ago. Apparently a Model 3 has equivalent capacity to 3 Powerwalls. It’ll be one more factor for me to get an EV sooner if that has been achieved. Any news STUNNA ....?
I agree Tesla has the infrastructure currently but that's for now because the big guns from the automotive industry have not caught up yet.
Haven’t we heard this before (Actually repeatedly.... for a while), the big boys are coming.....???? But they never arrived. . May be you should modify that to ... the dinosaurs are coming...
However I totally understand your point about interior aesthetics being a thing. I don’t want the entire automotive landscape to look like just one car. That would be like having a Toyota Corolla as the the only car on sale. We can have as many varieties of car as we like.
But, none will be able to compete with Tesla on range, performance, price (all together).
Haven’t we heard this before (Actually repeatedly.... for a while), the big boys are coming.....???? But they never arrived. . May be you should modify that to ... the dinosaurs are coming...
However I totally understand your point about interior aesthetics being a thing. I don’t want the entire automotive landscape to look like just one car. That would be like having a Toyota Corolla as the the only car on sale. We can have as many varieties of car as we like.
But, none will be able to compete with Tesla on range, performance, price (all together).
Last night our power went out and we were reminded little bit of how life was in the dark ages. Just wondering if Tesla cars can be used as a power back up device yet? I read something about it a few months ago. Apparently a Model 3 has equivalent capacity to 3 Powerwalls. It’ll be one more factor for me to get an EV sooner if that has been achieved. Any news STUNNA ....?
not yet, battery day on 9/22 would be the soonest they’d announce that.
ARK Invest has been very bullish in Tesla for years, they’re one of the very few industry investors that get. Cathie Wood is the GOAT investor. When Tesla was at $200 ARK was saying they’ll be at $4000 in 5 years
TL;DW Basically CNBC brings on someone from ARK & that person talks about Tesla’s technical lead, amazing roadmap, how screwed all the legacy manufacturers are, and CNBC just says yeah but what about Elon’s tweets
Companies are only as good as the talent they can attract. Everyone wants to work for Tesla, they don’t want to work for Ford, GM, BMW, VW, none of them even in the Top 10. That means Tesla gets the first pick, they get to fill their ranks with only the best of the best, all other car companies get the leftovers.
Tesla gets to hire all of the Peyton Mannings, and Drew Brees they want, while Porsche only has Jameis Winston, and Jay Cutler to choose from. So Tesla’s Model S has 400mi range and the Taycan costs twice as much and has 200 mi range. Bruh...
The future is EVs, just because a company had a good market share of ICE vehicles doesn't mean they will do well in the EV market. Just look what happened to Blackberry, and Nokia. New companies entered the market completely changed the game and the many old were cast aside and the new companies took over.
The future is EVs, just because a company had a good market share of ICE vehicles doesn't mean they will do well in the EV market. Just look what happened to Blackberry, and Nokia. New companies entered the market completely changed the game and the many old were cast aside and the new companies took over.
Tesla = 19% of Global Plugin Vehicle Market
Also none of Tesla's competitors have as much range as them and many of them cost less but still Tesla outsells them. I think many people chose a Tesla alternative mostly because of price, and they'd want a Tesla if it was in their price range. Elon said that going forward he really doesn't want to make a vehicle with less than around 300 miles,so Tesla won't be competing in the $20k range anytime soon. As time goes on people will begin to expect 300 miles range out of their EV as well. I think Tesla will be able to pull of a smaller Civic-sized city car with around 300mi range for $25k-$30k in 2-3 years.
I think Tesla will be able to pull of a smaller Civic-sized city car with around 300mi range for $25k-$30k in 2-3 years.
Civic interior measurements are not smaller than Model 3. Civic turn circle is 5 feet shorter. easily surpassing 500 mile range on long drives.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...m-test-review/ This is one of the best CVT/four-cylinder combos on the market today.” Combined with its aforementioned 35-mpg average (and several 40-plus-mpg stints on highway trips), this powertrain is a convincing sign that Honda has adapted its engineering know-how to the turbo era, despite the company’s long history of high-revving, naturally aspirated engines.
Tesla’s wiper controls are ruled illegal in Germany after someone crashed while using
Tesla’s wiper controls through its touchscreen have been ruled illegal in Germany after someone crashed their Model 3 while using them and fought a fine and driving ban through the court system.German courts are throwing a lot of sticks in Tesla’s wheel recently.
A Tesla Model 3 driver got into an accident while using the touchscreen to adjust the speed of the automatic windshield wipers.
In Model 3 and Model Y vehicles, Tesla didn’t install normal windshield wiper settings through a steering wheel stalk.
Instead, the automaker is detecting the rain through its Autopilot cameras and automatically adjusting the speed based on the strength of the rainfall.
If the driver wants to adjust the speed, they need to do it through the center touchscreen.
The driver in Germany was adjusting those settings when he lost control of the vehicle and crashed.
A local district court gave him a fine and a one-month driving ban and that’s where the problem started for Tesla.
He decided to fight the punishment – bringing the case to the Higher Regional Court (OLG).
The OLG judge ruled:
“The touchscreen permanently installed in the vehicle of the Tesla brand is an electronic device within the meaning of Section 23 (1a) sentence 1 and 2 StVO, the operation of which the motor vehicle driver is only permitted under the conditions of this regulation It does not matter which purpose the driver pursues with the operation, and the setting of the functions required to operate the motor vehicle via the touchscreen (here: setting the wiper interval of the windshield wiper) is therefore only permitted if this is done with a short, Street, traffic, visibility and weather conditions adapted to the view of the screen while at the same time looking away from the traffic is connected “
The judgment sets a precedent for future Tesla drivers about the use of the touchscreen for “functions required to operate the motor vehicle.”
Guess The German ICE OEMs still have people in power to help them out.
07-29-2020, 09:17 PM
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all other manufacturers are so far behind Tesla and are using inferior third party parts in a desperate attempt to be competitive, they might as well get their EVs components from the company that has the best EV tech on the market. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em
