SamDoe1

That is the most misleading table in all of human history.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

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oonowindoo

...... even SSFTSX dont use Guesstimates....

SamDoe1

Don't forget that the structural battery pack has a...negative (??????) weight effect on the car? Is it an antigravity pack?

I guess you probably shouldn't forget that the weight of the pack along with the actual energy content of said pack is exactly the same, they just bolt it in there differently.

#1 STUNNA

It’s almost like you guys are competing to see who can have the most shit take devoid of any critical thinking

SamDoe1

All you do is regurgitate shit you find on Tesla propaganda websites. Please tell us more about critical thinking.

Also, there are more than a few people here that own more Teslas than you.

biker

News flash, you'll be waiting for a long time and "innovations" like that will right around the corner every year for the foreseeable future. Kinda like 10 years ago when iPhone fanboys kept putting off buying a new phone because the next "big thing" was coming.

Comfy

In that case I’ll happily drive my RDX until that time comes.

SamDoe1

True believers to the church of Elon wouldn't do such things.

Comfy

#1 STUNNA

Another take on this

anoop

If true, the allegations are sad.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/t...ty-fund-2021-6

SamDoe1

Serious question: How much of this do you actually understand?

Guessing that it's next to none of it. If it's a matter of a custom alloy, do you seriously think that a legacy automaker with an army of engineers and metallurgists wouldn't have been able to come up with something like this if they wanted to? Shit, they can just buy a Model Y and copy it in an afternoon. Also, line down because robot is broken? Fine, a robot can be swapped out in an hour or so with a new one if needed or rebooted or relatively easily fixed quickly. If that weren't the case then no one would use them to make an order of magnitude more cars than Tesla does. Lastly, do you know anything about molding/casting? If you think a robot is easy to take down, you've obviously never worked with molding or casting because those two operations are FAR more finicky than a robot ever will be. The chances of your one casting press going down and ruining your whole day is far more likely than a robot going down. Not to mention that the actual act of casting something is incredibly difficult no matter how big/complex it is. The amount of process and material control required to do it right is crazy high.

I'm not saying that it's not a good thing or even the right thing but it's not as easy or "game changing" as you believe it to be. If it was, everyone would have been doing it already. A Tesla is not mechanically more complicated than any other car and just about every other car manufacturer on the planet has their manufacturing operations dialed in perfectly to be smooth and efficient. If they could save a shit ton of money by doing a casting like this, they would have done so decades ago.

Comfy

Why don’t you apply this shitty logic to SpaceX too and see where you reach.
Army of engineers and metallurgists in ULA and every other major space agency of the world, and one man with no aeronautical expertise defeated them all, and by what a margin ... .

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

TIL: Comfy thinks metal casting is literally rocket science.

oonowindoo

Because they are car companies and they do cars and they do them very well for decades and CENTURY.

Not every car business feels the need to go explore outer space and how can you say he defeated them if they never competed with Space X in the first place? Talk about shitty logic...

Comfy

ULA, Arianespace, etc got to know Elon very well now.
Just because they have been something well for decades doesn’t ensure success if they don’t plan ahead for future.

The turn of car companies is just around the corner. Watch for it.

SamDoe1

I don't because what you're saying is shitty logic. Casting something for a N=1 rocket is a very different process from both a requirements, application, manufacturing, and cost side than casting 300k parts per year regardless of the metal that goes into it. I'm thinking that you also don't understand any of this stuff from a technical side.

Also, Elon didn't do shit. He started a company and hired an army of engineers and scientists to start a space company.

Ford can, in one (1) factory, outpace the production of Tesla globally. I don't know how you can even begin to suggest that they don't know what they're doing.

#1 STUNNA

Tesla supplier is getting into the casting game now

Comfy

Assuming all you say is correct, why they didn’t DO it in the first place. WHY ...... ?
All I’m hearing from you is, Ford can, other legacy automakers can ....... but the reality is that they didn’t, wouldn’t, or couldn’t.
.............
what are they playing catch up and failing miserably at that too. . .

Elon’s greatest gift is his ability to manage time and resources (including human skills) efficiently and effectively.
Yes they do have an army of engineers to do the work. But so do the others (and as you say others may have more engineers). But they don’t have the results to show.
Dude, as the saying goes.... “The proof is in the pudding”..... doesn’t matter how good the ingredients/ chef/kitchen is. LOL.

SamDoe1

Why don't they? Because of modularity. A casting is not modular, it is specific to a model. Any of the makes that manufacture more than 4 models will do this. The underpinnings of a specific model (take the Ford Escape for example) are going to be shared across numerous models. The Escape's underpinnings are shared with the Bronco Sport and the new Maverick truck along with who knows how many foreign market cars as well. Because of modularity, they can tweak certain parts of a car to make up a new one with much smaller investment. It's much cheaper to have multiple stamping tools and robot welding programs than it is to manufacture new cast molds. If all you make is one thing then a cast makes sense as Tesla has done. I've done molding and casting for a living (though not in automotive) so unless you or someone else have more knowledge than me on the subject I suggest you take what I'm saying. It's not about knowledge, smarts, resource management, or whatever other BS that you think is true. It's about cost savings and efficiency. Please note how Ford managed to design and launch a F150 EV before Tesla could even build a factory for the cybertruck. There's a reason for that.

I really don't know what you mean by "playing catch up", "failing miserably", and "don't have results to show". None of these other makes has any interest in a space program lol.

Also:
Ford 2020 revenue: $127B
GM 2020 revenue: $122B
VAG 2020 revenue: $272B
Tesla 2020 revenue: $31.5B

Please explain how any of this amounts to "failing miserably". The closest "competitor" as you'd say made 4x as much money in a down year than Tesla made in an up year.

They've all been doing this for 100+ years, I think they have forgotten more about making cars than you or any of your youtube video makers know right now.

Comfy

“Failing miserably in the EV space” is what I meant. Appreciate your expertise in casting techniques. If you mean to say that Tesla’s approach to car making is wrong and Ford’s approach is right, then I guess we will have to wait for a few years to see which one prevails better.
You are talking about revenue and resources of the “ICE age” which will be dwindling and next to nothing in the coming years. Tesla started from zero around a decade ago only. So not a true comparison.

Are you sure that Ford Lightning will be actually on sale before the Cybertruck...?

SamDoe1

Neither approach is wrong. I gave you the reason why larger makers don't cast and the reason that Tesla does. It's all about cost and efficiency. If Tesla chooses to make an EWB three row version of the Model Y, the whole casting thing can come back and bite them in the ass whereas a stamped and welded part can easily, cheaply, and quickly be modified to implement such things. All I'm saying is that making a claim that casting is better no matter what is not at all true much like most of the Tesla propaganda you and your buddy post. Automakers do things for a reason and 99.9% of the time that reason is not to lose money because they could easily use an old school well known technology to make their manufacturing 1000% faster. Compared to the cost of a press, the tooling, service, support, maintenance, material supply, infrastructure and engineering to run it all...a handful of welding robots is a LOT LOT cheaper, easier, and quicker to adapt to necessary changes.

I'm talking revenue and resources of the here and now, to that end Tesla is losing...BADLY. The fact that they make 4x (at least) the amount of money in a down year is evidence that they are nowhere near failing so stop making that dumb ass claim. Everyone is jumping into the EV game, it's only a matter of time before the real competitors to Teslas will be on the market and THAT is when we'll see what happens. My guess is that will be early next year when the i4, iX, F150 EV, etc all hit the market.

Seeing as though we've already seen the production truck and it has a factory to build it already...yes it will be on sale before the cybertruck. Either way the F150 will sell a lot more than the CT in actual sales, that's damn near a certainty at this point.

oonowindoo

Yah just like when you said Robotaxi in 2022 and by 2025 all cars sold will be EV?

Comfy

So in other words the competition is coming, right. .
We heard that a lot. a LOT LOT.
Bwaaaaahhaaahhhaaa.

Legacy auto makes four times more money now simply because their total volumes are higher, and they are selling ICE (which is hugely profitable for them anyway).
Now they will be forced to mass produce EVs, and that’s when it’ll bite them in the rear. .
Tesla is only ramping up their volume, so the game is only beginning, but punches have been thrown already. Cool.

Comfy

yes Robotaxis in 2022 and majority of cars (>50%) will be EV by 2025 is what I said. It’s not 2022 yet. So I’m still floating. .

#1 STUNNA

"The competition is coming" - Since 2009

anoop

Robotaxis I don’t think will happen even in the next 20 years. EVs being > 50% by 2025 is not doable — mismatch between supply and demand, but somewhere between 10 and 25% is doable.

SamDoe1

There is not a single car on sale today or even on the horizon for the next 2 years that will be self driving enough for robotaxis. If you seriously think that will come true I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.

At this point I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just this dense. If ICE was dead or dying it wouldn't be profitable. Legacy makers have been doing this for a century, believe me when I say that it's going to come back and bite Elon in the ass when the first real competitor (guessing i4) hits the market. Then the EQS and F150 will be the next two punches. Rivian is knocking on the door too with 2.5 years of sold out production.

anoop

Invisible art is the new oceanfront property.

The "real competitors" are all still wishing EVs would go away. They are not going to be able to command the margins they were used to. Hence the Japanese companies are dragging their feet as they are forced into the game. So are MB and BMW. They announce and hype stuff but keep delaying shipping. Tesla is way ahead in battery tech (they go more miles on a smaller battery) and generally all tech (intuitive and lag-free infotainment). Other car makers are being forced to sign up with Amazon and Google to deliver bits and pieces of their software. Not one of these companies has the charging infrastructure of Tesla. I don't think Tesla's current stock price is justified, but I also do not think it is a zero (and there are many companies whose stock is overvalued, e.g. $NOW, $WORK, $SNOW, etc.). Musk has single handedly disrupted not just the auto industry but big oil as well. He deserves some credit for that. I know many households that are 100% Tesla (2-3 Teslas) and they wouldn't do that if they didn't absolutely love the cars.

#1 STUNNA

Finally a good take from someone in here

kurtatx

This is all very true. I just hope Tesla doesn't lose sight of the fact that they're still not a very good builder of cars. They're behind from a build quality, cost to repair, service, and ergonomics standpoint.

Mercedes doesn't have to be as good as Tesla at batteries to succeed. The 3 pointed star and the immaculate interior tend to sell cars.

Also, buried in the lead with this whole Plaid launch: The range on the new plaid is about 100 miles under what the Plaid Plus was supposed to get and in typical fashion the Model S Plaid will miss EPA estimates.

anoop

I haven't bought a Tesla and don't know how painful/painless the process is, but at least the test drive was pretty painless. So if you can bypass the dealership purchase "experience" along with the comfort of knowing that everyone that is buying the car is paying the exact same price as you, I think that would be a big enough draw for people. Also, MB has gone down in quality (visit the forums at mbworld.org) while Tesla is on the way up. For many, Tesla has better brand cachet than MB -- they like that it's a pioneer in EVs and made in the US.

I own a 2019 RDX and have had the following problems with it.

• Crackling speakers: Intermittent problem that I noticed since the car was new. Not fixed.
• Squeaky tailgate: Happened around 5000 miles. Fixed under warranty.
• Whistling when engine starts or shuts: Happened around 7000 miles. Fixed under warranty TSB.
• Infotainment will prompt for update even though no update is available. Fixed in D1.2.1.
• Rubber lining near the tailgate lock has a gap. Fixed under warranty by adjusting the lining.
• Ticking sound when starting the engine. Intermittent problem. Fixed under warranty by adjusting the PCM bracket.
• Numerous rattles all over the interior started to appear after about a year. Not fixed.
• When starting on a trip from home the infotainment system booted up and threw an error "Unfortunately, AcuraLauncher has stopped". Did not happen again on the return trip. Not fixed.
• Received recall notice from Acura to replace the fuel pump motor.
• Clock doesn't automatically adjust for daylight savings even though all clock settings are auto (detect time zone, set time, etc.). Fixed by changing to manual mode for settings and, after some time, switching back to auto.

There are many others who have had worse issues with their RDXs like going into limp mode while trying to merge on to the highway.

kurtatx

Not to create a spitting match because I love both my Teslas, but I have had more problems with both my Teslas than you have listed and both of them are under recall for brakes. They both rattle like crazy and the touch screen isn't great.

They're not really in the same build quality as any Honda or Subaru I have owned, let alone my Audi.

Tesla tried to charge me $750 to fix a steering wheel that was off by 5 degrees from the factory. You can't get a loaner when they work on your car (never a problem with any other car I have owned). Hail did $13,000 in damage to my Model 3 that my insurance refuses to pay but any other body shop my insurance company works with won't touch the car because it's a Tesla.

It's great everyone is so excited about Tesla. When I drive mine I love them. When I never go to the gas station, I love them.

They have a long way to go. The service still sucks. Yeah, you get to skip the dealership, but they don't communicate well and the cars arrive with a myriad of problems. Roadtripping is easy but if you have any problems you're royally fucked because Tesla roadside is horrible across most of the country.

Comfy

That’s not encouraging. Hope these problems get fixed soon as Tesla focuses on service more.

Comfy

The real competitor to Tesla has been already coming for the last 10 years. Don’t waste your time counting on i4. .

none of the cars you mentioned will sell in meaningful numbers to make a difference to Tesla. But yes, I like the fact that they are all EVs and helping with the transition, and therefore I wish them well.

If at all, these EVs will show people how much better technology Tesla has and that will help the sales of Tesla. Just saying.

My intent is to simply keep the discussion (and entertainment going).

biker

I think it has been pretty obvious where the EV market is headed.

You'll have the walled garden of Tesla like the iPhone and then everyone else will be like Android.

And like those analogies, Tesla will have the lead for a while, but the overall market will eventually have similar numbers to the smart phone market - Tesla will have a very dedicated (along with fanbois, just like Apple) 10-20% of the market and then there's everyone else. Unlike the Android market, you won't have a Samsung with a huge market share but lots of companies vying for the other 80-90% of the EV share. And to this day, the software is "better" on an iPhone than Android - Tesla will be the same.

pttl

If the EV universe is serious about really getting EVs to the masses, 2 things need to happen.
1. They have to be affordable.
2. The charging interface/technology has to become universal. If every company which makes an EV, tries to keep its charger/charging interface proprietary, they are only delaying the success of the EV as a universal mode of transportation.

Comfy

Revenue in 2026 (estimates):

Tesla: $192 billion
Ford: $156 billion
GM: $147 billion

Revenue in 2007:

GM: $181 billion
Ford: $172 billion
Tesla: $73 thousand

Comfy

The only difference I feel is that unlike Apple which aims for only the premium market , Tesla is aiming for the mass market and therefore will likely have a higher market share. It is besides the fact that none of the others will have as much profit margins at scale as Tesla. So in theory, Tesla can undercut almost all legacy automakers if needed. Now there’s a question of dealerships too. So unless that status changes, Tesla will eat everyone’s breakfast, lunch, and dinner. .