Honda: Development and Technology News
11-11-2010, 11:20 AM
#1641
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
What a stupid pissing match.. It's really getting pathetic.
Pissing and moaning about what defines luxury when more than 80% of the world can't afford any of the aforementioned cars.
Pissing and moaning about what defines luxury when more than 80% of the world can't afford any of the aforementioned cars.
11-11-2010, 11:23 AM
#1642
OK but VW can't make you wait 6 months for a car and you don't have the same customization options. Their buyers aren't that picky. Value brands tend to do cookie-cutter models and stock them well. Acura does this.
It's pretty easy to see why the Mustang is not a luxury car. It has a huge engine for not a lot of money. Audis have small 4-cyl engines for the same price as competitors' 6 cyl. What else makes up for that apparent deficit in the soccer mom's eyes if it's not added luxury? They have to give you something intangible for that money and since it's not features, it's exclusivity, styling, customization and material quality (I won't say reliability), and those things add up to luxury.
It's pretty easy to see why the Mustang is not a luxury car. It has a huge engine for not a lot of money. Audis have small 4-cyl engines for the same price as competitors' 6 cyl. What else makes up for that apparent deficit in the soccer mom's eyes if it's not added luxury? They have to give you something intangible for that money and since it's not features, it's exclusivity, styling, customization and material quality (I won't say reliability), and those things add up to luxury.
I think if you just give it another round of new models and continue to build off the progress that they're currently making, Audi will be considered to have the same panache as BMW, Lexus and MB.
But if you ask me, I never really gave a shit about what anyone else thought about my car and thus the perception of luxury is moot
11-11-2010, 11:25 AM
#1643
Senior Moderator
Seriously, lets get this back on topic. Honda Future model news.
Rumor is the next Si is getting the K24.... good? bad? who cares? While I think Honda needs to move well past the 200HP barrier in a model like that, I don't think the K24 is the answer. I'd rather see a 8K+ screamer than the 2.4. Unless they found a way to strike a nice balance and deliver 225HP/185 lb-ft, which I just can't see happening.
Rumor is the next Si is getting the K24.... good? bad? who cares? While I think Honda needs to move well past the 200HP barrier in a model like that, I don't think the K24 is the answer. I'd rather see a 8K+ screamer than the 2.4. Unless they found a way to strike a nice balance and deliver 225HP/185 lb-ft, which I just can't see happening.
11-11-2010, 11:26 AM
#1644
I'm the Firestarter
11-11-2010, 11:28 AM
#1645
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Seriously, lets get this back on topic. Honda Future model news.
Rumor is the next Si is getting the K24.... good? bad? who cares? While I think Honda needs to move well past the 200HP barrier in a model like that, I don't think the K24 is the answer. I'd rather see a 8K+ screamer than the 2.4. Unless they found a way to strike a nice balance and deliver 225HP/185 lb-ft, which I just can't see happening.
Rumor is the next Si is getting the K24.... good? bad? who cares? While I think Honda needs to move well past the 200HP barrier in a model like that, I don't think the K24 is the answer. I'd rather see a 8K+ screamer than the 2.4. Unless they found a way to strike a nice balance and deliver 225HP/185 lb-ft, which I just can't see happening.
A turbo K23 that's used on the RDX would be nice.
11-11-2010, 11:34 AM
#1646
I'm the Firestarter
As much as I'm sure that nobody considers the Mustang a luxury car, I'm sure that Audi is considered luxury, at least in North America. I would think Acura is considered luxury too. Same with Lexus (I'm not sure if you can customize an LS) and though I think Lexus has the same cookie-cutter model as Acura, they still have the perception of being one of the top players in the luxury car market. I think Audi is very well working their way there. 7 years ago my mom and sister would have never considered an Audi but they are today.
I think if you just give it another round of new models and continue to build off the progress that they're currently making, Audi will be considered to have the same panache as BMW, Lexus and MB.
But if you ask me, I never really gave a shit about what anyone else thought about my car and thus the perception of luxury is moot
I think if you just give it another round of new models and continue to build off the progress that they're currently making, Audi will be considered to have the same panache as BMW, Lexus and MB.
But if you ask me, I never really gave a shit about what anyone else thought about my car and thus the perception of luxury is moot
Don't get me wrong, I think Acura is luxury, they're just a notch below the rest. They do cookie cutter models like Lexus but if you sit down in a Lexus you can tell it has higher quality materials, which put it above Acura. They skimp on some things to make their cars more price-attractive. It's cheaper to not offer AWD in all your cars. It's cheaper to not offer lots of engine options. It's cheaper to stick with your old proven front-drive architecture. They pass on these savings to the customer, and they save on these and other little things to offer better value for the money. Lexus has spent money on a RWD architecture and V8s. Audi spent $1 billion on the latest A4 platform in order to make it more rear-biased. Honda didn't spend that money and now they can give you a better deal on a comparable car, but it won't have these little things that some luxury buyers look for.
11-11-2010, 11:35 AM
#1647
I think the torque output needs to go up or they need to go F/I... do one and most likely you'll see the other. They need to make it a front mount intercooled setup though, keeping that top mount makes the engine too tall to put into anything but a truck, supposedly. But IIRC the way the top mount is set up it greatly improves response somehow.
11-11-2010, 11:36 AM
#1648
Senior Moderator
One of the great things about the Si (and old Honda's in general) is its red line. Using a turbo pretty much kills that formula.
As much as I'd love to see more TQ, I think I'd still rather see an ever higher revving motor with a crazy personality above 6-7K.
Damn I miss my old GS-R. Granted at my age I'm too old for those types of cars.
As much as I'd love to see more TQ, I think I'd still rather see an ever higher revving motor with a crazy personality above 6-7K.
Damn I miss my old GS-R. Granted at my age I'm too old for those types of cars.
11-11-2010, 11:41 AM
#1649
I also didn't consider Audi a few years ago, although I felt they were above Acura for a while, even as I owned an Acura (and felt it was a better car for me than the Audi).
Don't get me wrong, I think Acura is luxury, they're just a notch below the rest. They do cookie cutter models like Lexus but if you sit down in a Lexus you can tell it has higher quality materials, which put it above Acura. They skimp on some things to make their cars more price-attractive. It's cheaper to not offer AWD in all your cars. It's cheaper to not offer lots of engine options. It's cheaper to stick with your old proven front-drive architecture. They pass on these savings to the customer, and they save on these and other little things to offer better value for the money. Lexus has spent money on a RWD architecture and V8s. Audi spent $1 billion on the latest A4 platform in order to make it more rear-biased. Honda didn't spend that money and now they can give you a better deal on a comparable car, but it won't have these little things that some luxury buyers look for.
Don't get me wrong, I think Acura is luxury, they're just a notch below the rest. They do cookie cutter models like Lexus but if you sit down in a Lexus you can tell it has higher quality materials, which put it above Acura. They skimp on some things to make their cars more price-attractive. It's cheaper to not offer AWD in all your cars. It's cheaper to not offer lots of engine options. It's cheaper to stick with your old proven front-drive architecture. They pass on these savings to the customer, and they save on these and other little things to offer better value for the money. Lexus has spent money on a RWD architecture and V8s. Audi spent $1 billion on the latest A4 platform in order to make it more rear-biased. Honda didn't spend that money and now they can give you a better deal on a comparable car, but it won't have these little things that some luxury buyers look for.
As much as I'd like for Honda to implement RWD and V8s into their Future Models, I don't really see it happening. My point is that in the eyes of the public, Audi is not on the same level as BMW, Lexus, and MB, yet, and this is partly reflected in the sales numbers. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
11-11-2010, 11:45 AM
#1650
One of the great things about the Si (and old Honda's in general) is its red line. Using a turbo pretty much kills that formula.
As much as I'd love to see more TQ, I think I'd still rather see an ever higher revving motor with a crazy personality above 6-7K.
Damn I miss my old GS-R. Granted at my age I'm too old for those types of cars.
As much as I'd love to see more TQ, I think I'd still rather see an ever higher revving motor with a crazy personality above 6-7K.
Damn I miss my old GS-R. Granted at my age I'm too old for those types of cars.
The problem with the Si is that it gets smothered (or loses, at least) in comparos when you match it up against its competitors which have turbos, or AWD. One thing I've learned is that it's more expensive to make a car's redline higher than to give it more torque. There'll be a point where it becomes uncompetitive overall when you factor in the performance and the price. I too, wish more cars were lightweight and high revving but they might not come cheap in the future, as cars get heavier and heavier and you need more usable torque to get those lumbering chunks of steel and rubber moving.
11-11-2010, 11:48 AM
#1651
Senior Moderator
I agree with the V8 part, no need at this point in time. But why not a RWD platform? The only reason I can come up with is cost. Which IMO, isn't a good enough reason. The "Accord platform is good enough" argument doesn't sit well with me.
11-11-2010, 11:51 AM
#1652
Senior Moderator
The problem with the Si is that it gets smothered (or loses, at least) in comparos when you match it up against its competitors which have turbos, or AWD. One thing I've learned is that it's more expensive to make a car's redline higher than to give it more torque. There'll be a point where it becomes uncompetitive overall when you factor in the performance and the price. I too, wish more cars were lightweight and high revving but they might not come cheap in the future, as cars get heavier and heavier and you need more usable torque to get those lumbering chunks of steel and rubber moving.
11-11-2010, 11:52 AM
#1653
They already had a RWD platform since 1999, but they haven't further exploited it yet. Can you guess what it is? S2000
11-11-2010, 11:57 AM
#1654
True though, the K24, while IMO still a great engine just doesn't fit the personality of what the Si should be. I have no idea what Honda will do, but then again for the 2002 Si, they did put in a bigger, much lower revving, torque-y-er (lol) engine in it. Put out the same amount of power, relatively much more displacement and quite a big more torque. Maybe they'll follow that tradition
And to go further on my point about already having a RWD platform, maybe Honda just wants to be somewhat different from their competitors, or to just do it their own way. The company's been like that for a long time now.
Last edited by Costco; 11-11-2010 at 11:59 AM.
11-11-2010, 12:00 PM
#1655
I'm the Firestarter
It's because Honda looks way, WAY out into the future when making these decisions, and they see a future with hybrids and hydrogen cars. I think they put their money there instead of a RWD platform for gas cars.
11-11-2010, 12:09 PM
#1657
Dom is only 33 and he's worried that he's too old for a GS-R?!?! My cousin is in his mid 30's and still has his GS-R. I never thought anything of it.
I hate to say this but I think he's making excuses
I hate to say this but I think he's making excuses
11-11-2010, 12:12 PM
#1658
AZ Community Team
Nobody's stopping you from swapping in an ITR powerplant in your Oddy
True though, the K24, while IMO still a great engine just doesn't fit the personality of what the Si should be. I have no idea what Honda will do, but then again for the 2002 Si, they did put in a bigger, much lower revving, torque-y-er (lol) engine in it. Put out the same amount of power, relatively much more displacement and quite a big more torque. Maybe they'll follow that tradition
And to go further on my point about already having a RWD platform, maybe Honda just wants to be somewhat different from their competitors, or to just do it their own way. The company's been like that for a long time now.
True though, the K24, while IMO still a great engine just doesn't fit the personality of what the Si should be. I have no idea what Honda will do, but then again for the 2002 Si, they did put in a bigger, much lower revving, torque-y-er (lol) engine in it. Put out the same amount of power, relatively much more displacement and quite a big more torque. Maybe they'll follow that tradition
And to go further on my point about already having a RWD platform, maybe Honda just wants to be somewhat different from their competitors, or to just do it their own way. The company's been like that for a long time now.
Chapter on Honda
http://books.google.com/books?id=DTz...page&q&f=false
11-11-2010, 12:39 PM
#1659
Micheline Maynard's book "The End of Detroit" spends a entire chapter on Honda's culture and how they do things. The one thing you definitely got right is "just do it their own way" which really sums up Honda well.
Chapter on Honda
http://books.google.com/books?id=DTz...page&q&f=false
Chapter on Honda
http://books.google.com/books?id=DTz...page&q&f=false
11-11-2010, 12:56 PM
#1660
AZ Community Team
Honda is Chapter 4, it's pretty decent book on the auto industry.
11-11-2010, 01:44 PM
#1663
Burning Brakes
11-11-2010, 01:46 PM
#1664
Let's see if I can be successful to make this my last post on this thread....
Lexus is behind?? Lexus introduced the 8 speed in the LS when the Germans had only 5!!! So they have a reason not to but it in smaller engines.
You got your 8 speed, an Acura buyer buy other sophistication, the better suspension setup, the more sophisticated valvetrain, alluminum subframes, etc....to each his own, we live in a world of compromises.
First I did not like the 5 Series and their X-Drive system is one generation behind the SH-AWD and the vectorial implementation of the Audi Quattro system, second the difference was WAY higher than my budget (MSRP to MSRP there is something like 30% difference), third higher running cost (V8 engine with more displacement)
Yes I found the TL more desiderable in its more polarizing and aggressive styling, nicer interior styling and the SH-AWD is better and more advanced than the BMW X-Drive.
Build quality and finishing is just about the same (at least BMW did not skimp as much on the interior as the 3 Series)
Some people do not like the TL period...for various reasons
I think there is contradiction.....and remember you need to look under the hood to see sophistication too, something many Acura buyers do....Germans are master in sprinkling extra gizmos (at higher cost) to give you the impression of more luxury....I take a vectorial SH-AWD system over a LED light setup every time.....
Just the fact the the 3 Series and the A4 (at least their base trims) give you fake leather disqualify your argument that they are somewhat more luxurious than the TL (or even the TSX), they are not.
I did choose the TL because of its superior AWD system and more aggressive sportier styling (inside and out). If I did like the Bimmer better I would have got the 535, simple as that...and trust me, I'm not the only one that cross-shop the TL with the entry-mid range of the 5 Series or the A6....magazines (Edmunds for example) acknowledge that...Actually the TL is more luxurious of the A4 (not the S4), also just becuase of bigger dislacement, V6 engines
Thanks for proving my point....you were already stretched too thin in your budget for the TSX price and you could not fork the little extra for a car you really liked more (and it had, IMHO, a better value proposition)....there was always the BMW 1 Series.....
You do not understand that a big part of the image for a luxury brand is its historical heritage made of decades and decades of building superior cars and exclusivity.
Audi, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti simply lack that...period...is not something you can buy or build in few years making good luxury cars...it takes time....in the 70s Audi was building ugly econoboxes when BMW and Mercedes were building dream cars...Audi is for VW nothing more than what Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are for their mainstream corporate owners... premium divisions that shares platforms, components and engines with their non premium cousins.....Audi tries to piss longer offering super high end models where the 3 Japanese don't (not because they can't but because they want to stay value competitive in the lower segments where the bulk of the business is done)
and yes, sometimes Audi, with their halo models succeed in convincing a guy that his A4 is more luxurious than my TL
Mercedes and BMW have a continuous history on their side since the early decades of the automotive industry...great heritage...they were building aircraft engines (like Rolls Royce)...when in the 50's Mercedes made people dream about ttheir 300 SL gull-wing doors where was Audi?? or Lexus?? or Infiniti??
Jaguar in the past was almost able to approach Mercedes in image and heritage...but too many corporate misshaps, unrealiability, lack of funding to stay at the top marred that reputation.
Because Honda made the NSX or Nissan the GT-R it doesn't make that cars Ferrari fighters (in the image department)..the same is with Hyundai with the excellent Genesis....it cannot compete in image with a 5 series
Cadillac is lately cranking out really bad-ass cars with excellent build quality and killing road abilities...that doesn't put them in the Mercedes or BMW camp when it comes to image.....
You need to distinguish "luxury" with "image".....an Acura RL is as luxurious and technologically sophisticate as any upper 5 Series offering (or even 7 series) it just does not have the image....
BMW and Mercedes do not share platform and main components with any non premium brands....something the 3 Japs and Audi cannot claim....
exclusivity....
This is what Audi fan fail to understand....
The Japanese brands on average offer better value than the Germans at comparable purchasing prices....not always...in the particular case of the TSX vs. the 328, in my opinion, the Bimmer offer the better value and I would have got the 328 hands down.
This is not about going broke.....if I shop for a car in a given price range, usually that can include 10% swings simply because I do not stretch to the last dollar when I decide on a budget......
Excellent point...the RX is as luxurious and as well built as any of the German competitors...just it does not have the image and heritage of Mercedes or BMW....but it's perfectly on par with Audi....
The A8 is as luxurious as an S Class but it's just does not have the cachet....sorry but this is it...
Again I do not give a rat you know what about heritage and image...I buy based on what the car gives to me and if Hyundai one day will make a car that I aspire to I would buy it without problem....
After all very wealthy people buy high end Lexuses and they do not care about image and heritage but ony about what they are buying...
But for some people that care about image and heritage Audi is simply not there yet....
In Europe people wait one year to get their Passats the way they want it.
One individual is waiting few months to get the TL in the color combination he wants (Black on Umber)..it's all relative...who told you that there are more people that are willing to wait for an Audi but not for an Acura?? Any statistical data??
Hmm I would like to know what changed that perception...hmmm
The only "inferiority" that I concede to Audi vs. Acura is that that Acura does not have a very high range offering...again (beating a horse to death) that does not make your A4 more luxurious than my TL....
I hope this end up the discussion.
On a light note this a funny video about car "image" (Japanese Vs. German) and salesman pressure tactics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2zh2oFYs0g
Lexus is not offering it yet because they're behind in this area. Acura is WAY behind. You're trying to tell us it doesn't matter but it's the addition of these little things that makes Audi and BMW luxury, and Acura "value luxury".
You got your 8 speed, an Acura buyer buy other sophistication, the better suspension setup, the more sophisticated valvetrain, alluminum subframes, etc....to each his own, we live in a world of compromises.
Well if you could afford a TL why couldn't you afford a 550i?
Are you telling me you find the TL more desirable, higher quality and you think it's a better performing car?
Build quality and finishing is just about the same (at least BMW did not skimp as much on the interior as the 3 Series)
Why doesn't everyone buy a fully-loaded TL AWD with nav
There's no contradiction. I could have got the same features on the TSX for less, but instead of leveling and swiveling lights I would have got regular HID lights. I would have got lesser-quality dash trim. It's not necessarily things that are on the feature list but they require you to pay more to get something slightly more upscale. That's luxury.
Just the fact the the 3 Series and the A4 (at least their base trims) give you fake leather disqualify your argument that they are somewhat more luxurious than the TL (or even the TSX), they are not.
You would have got that too with a 535i but instead you chose value with the TL.
but I can believe that I could have got a 3-series with similar options for about 10% more. For me the 10% simply was more than I was willing to spend on a car at the time.
You're wrong, the A8 and R8 proves you wrong, the fact that Audi has all the luxury attributes proves
Audi, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti simply lack that...period...is not something you can buy or build in few years making good luxury cars...it takes time....in the 70s Audi was building ugly econoboxes when BMW and Mercedes were building dream cars...Audi is for VW nothing more than what Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are for their mainstream corporate owners... premium divisions that shares platforms, components and engines with their non premium cousins.....Audi tries to piss longer offering super high end models where the 3 Japanese don't (not because they can't but because they want to stay value competitive in the lower segments where the bulk of the business is done)
and yes, sometimes Audi, with their halo models succeed in convincing a guy that his A4 is more luxurious than my TL
Mercedes and BMW have a continuous history on their side since the early decades of the automotive industry...great heritage...they were building aircraft engines (like Rolls Royce)...when in the 50's Mercedes made people dream about ttheir 300 SL gull-wing doors where was Audi?? or Lexus?? or Infiniti??
Jaguar in the past was almost able to approach Mercedes in image and heritage...but too many corporate misshaps, unrealiability, lack of funding to stay at the top marred that reputation.
Because Honda made the NSX or Nissan the GT-R it doesn't make that cars Ferrari fighters (in the image department)..the same is with Hyundai with the excellent Genesis....it cannot compete in image with a 5 series
Cadillac is lately cranking out really bad-ass cars with excellent build quality and killing road abilities...that doesn't put them in the Mercedes or BMW camp when it comes to image.....
You need to distinguish "luxury" with "image".....an Acura RL is as luxurious and technologically sophisticate as any upper 5 Series offering (or even 7 series) it just does not have the image....
BMW and Mercedes do not share platform and main components with any non premium brands....something the 3 Japs and Audi cannot claim....
exclusivity....
This is what Audi fan fail to understand....
You started by arguing that German cars are higher on a luxury scale (or maybe it's just Audi you argue about), then you say that a 3-series is great value, and then you say that Japanese cars are great value... What exactly is your point? Here's my point:
And to address your point about being willing to pay more, let's say I can buy a 50K german car, but I cross-shopped it with a 40K Acura. I will not go and make the stupid statement that every Acura buyer should have been able to afford the 50K German car but chose not to. Everyone has a limit, and that limit is NOT necessarily at going broke.
Let's use your logic and apply it to the SUV market. The RX sells more than every other SUV combined. Does that mean it's higher on the luxury scale than the X3/X5, Q5,
Excellent point...the RX is as luxurious and as well built as any of the German competitors...just it does not have the image and heritage of Mercedes or BMW....but it's perfectly on par with Audi....
The A8 is as luxurious as an S Class but it's just does not have the cachet....sorry but this is it...
Again I do not give a rat you know what about heritage and image...I buy based on what the car gives to me and if Hyundai one day will make a car that I aspire to I would buy it without problem....
After all very wealthy people buy high end Lexuses and they do not care about image and heritage but ony about what they are buying...
But for some people that care about image and heritage Audi is simply not there yet....
OK but VW can't make you wait 6 months for a car and you don't have the same customization options
One individual is waiting few months to get the TL in the color combination he wants (Black on Umber)..it's all relative...who told you that there are more people that are willing to wait for an Audi but not for an Acura?? Any statistical data??
I also didn't consider Audi a few years ago, although I felt they were above Acura for a while, even as I owned an Acura (and felt it was a better car for me than the Audi).
The only "inferiority" that I concede to Audi vs. Acura is that that Acura does not have a very high range offering...again (beating a horse to death) that does not make your A4 more luxurious than my TL....
I hope this end up the discussion.
On a light note this a funny video about car "image" (Japanese Vs. German) and salesman pressure tactics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2zh2oFYs0g
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-11-2010 at 02:00 PM.
11-11-2010, 01:58 PM
#1665
Senior Moderator
Whether future cars will be RWD or FWD is irrelevant, or whether they'll be driven with wheels at all.
11-11-2010, 02:15 PM
#1666
Let's see if I can be successful to make this my last post on this thread....
Lexus is behind?? Lexus introduced the 8 speed in the LS when the Germans had only 5!!! So they have a reason not to but it in smaller engines.
You got your 8 speed, an Acura buyer buy other sophistication, the better suspension setup, the more sophisticated valvetrain, alluminum subframes, etc....to each his own, we live in a world of compromises.
First I did not like the 5 Series and their X-Drive system is one generation behind the SH-AWD and the vectorial implementation of the Audi Quattro system, second the difference was WAY higher than my budget (MSRP to MSRP there is something like 30% difference), third higher running cost (V8 engine with more displacement)
Yes I found the TL more desiderable in its more polarizing and aggressive styling, nicer interior styling and the SH-AWD is better and more advanced than the BMW X-Drive.
Build quality and finishing is just about the same (at least BMW did not skimp as much on the interior as the 3 Series)
Some people do not like the TL period...for various reasons
I think there is contradiction.....and remember you need to look under the hood to see sophistication too, something many Acura buyers do....Germans are master in sprinkling extra gizmos (at higher cost) to give you the impression of more luxury....I take a vectorial SH-AWD system over a LED light setup every time.....
Just the fact the the 3 Series and the A4 (at least their base trims) give you fake leather disqualify your argument that they are somewhat more luxurious than the TL (or even the TSX), they are not.
I did choose the TL because of its superior AWD system and more aggressive sportier styling (inside and out). If I did like the Bimmer better I would have got the 535, simple as that...and trust me, I'm not the only one that cross-shop the TL with the entry-mid range of the 5 Series or the A6....magazines (Edmunds for example) acknowledge that...Actually the TL is more luxurious of the A4 (not the S4), also just becuase of bigger dislacement, V6 engines
Thanks for proving my point....you were already stretched too thin in your budget for the TSX price and you could not fork the little extra for a car you really liked more (and it had, IMHO, a better value proposition)....there was always the BMW 1 Series.....
You do not understand that a big part of the image for a luxury brand is its historical heritage made of decades and decades of building superior cars and exclusivity.
Audi, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti simply lack that...period...is not something you can buy or build in few years making good luxury cars...it takes time....in the 70s Audi was building ugly econoboxes when BMW and Mercedes were building dream cars...Audi is for VW nothing more than what Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are for their mainstream corporate owners... premium divisions that shares platforms, components and engines with their non premium cousins.....Audi tries to piss longer offering super high end models where the 3 Japanese don't (not because they can't but because they want to stay value competitive in the lower segments where the bulk of the business is done)
and yes, sometimes Audi, with their halo models succeed in convincing a guy that his A4 is more luxurious than my TL
Mercedes and BMW have a continuous history on their side since the early decades of the automotive industry...great heritage...they were building aircraft engines (like Rolls Royce)...when in the 50's Mercedes made people dream about ttheir 300 SL gull-wing doors where was Audi?? or Lexus?? or Infiniti??
Jaguar in the past was almost able to approach Mercedes in image and heritage...but too many corporate misshaps, unrealiability, lack of funding to stay at the top marred that reputation.
Because Honda made the NSX or Nissan the GT-R it doesn't make that cars Ferrari fighters (in the image department)..the same is with Hyundai with the excellent Genesis....it cannot compete in image with a 5 series
Cadillac is lately cranking out really bad-ass cars with excellent build quality and killing road abilities...that doesn't put them in the Mercedes or BMW camp when it comes to image.....
You need to distinguish "luxury" with "image".....an Acura RL is as luxurious and technologically sophisticate as any upper 5 Series offering (or even 7 series) it just does not have the image....
BMW and Mercedes do not share platform and main components with any non premium brands....something the 3 Japs and Audi cannot claim....
exclusivity....
This is what Audi fan fail to understand....
The Japanese brands on average offer better value than the Germans at comparable purchasing prices....not always...in the particular case of the TSX vs. the 328, in my opinion, the Bimmer offer the better value and I would have got the 328 hands down.
This is not about going broke.....if I shop for a car in a given price range, usually that can include 10% swings simply because I do not stretch to the last dollar when I decide on a budget......
Excellent point...the RX is as luxurious and as well built as any of the German competitors...just it does not have the image and heritage of Mercedes or BMW....but it's perfectly on par with Audi....
The A8 is as luxurious as an S Class but it's just does not have the cachet....sorry but this is it...
Again I do not give a rat you know what about heritage and image...I buy based on what the car gives to me and if Hyundai one day will make a car that I aspire to I would buy it without problem....
After all very wealthy people buy high end Lexuses and they do not care about image and heritage but ony about what they are buying...
But for some people that care about image and heritage Audi is simply not there yet....
In Europe people wait one year to get their Passats the way they want it.
One individual is waiting few months to get the TL in the color combination he wants (Black on Umber)..it's all relative...who told you that there are more people that are willing to wait for an Audi but not for an Acura?? Any statistical data??
Hmm I would like to know what changed that perception...hmmm
The only "inferiority" that I concede to Audi vs. Acura is that that Acura does not have a very high range offering...again (beating a horse to death) that does not make your A4 more luxurious than my TL....
I hope this end up the discussion.
On a light note this a funny video about car "image" (Japanese Vs. German) and salesman pressure tactics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2zh2oFYs0g
Lexus is behind?? Lexus introduced the 8 speed in the LS when the Germans had only 5!!! So they have a reason not to but it in smaller engines.
You got your 8 speed, an Acura buyer buy other sophistication, the better suspension setup, the more sophisticated valvetrain, alluminum subframes, etc....to each his own, we live in a world of compromises.
First I did not like the 5 Series and their X-Drive system is one generation behind the SH-AWD and the vectorial implementation of the Audi Quattro system, second the difference was WAY higher than my budget (MSRP to MSRP there is something like 30% difference), third higher running cost (V8 engine with more displacement)
Yes I found the TL more desiderable in its more polarizing and aggressive styling, nicer interior styling and the SH-AWD is better and more advanced than the BMW X-Drive.
Build quality and finishing is just about the same (at least BMW did not skimp as much on the interior as the 3 Series)
Some people do not like the TL period...for various reasons
I think there is contradiction.....and remember you need to look under the hood to see sophistication too, something many Acura buyers do....Germans are master in sprinkling extra gizmos (at higher cost) to give you the impression of more luxury....I take a vectorial SH-AWD system over a LED light setup every time.....
Just the fact the the 3 Series and the A4 (at least their base trims) give you fake leather disqualify your argument that they are somewhat more luxurious than the TL (or even the TSX), they are not.
I did choose the TL because of its superior AWD system and more aggressive sportier styling (inside and out). If I did like the Bimmer better I would have got the 535, simple as that...and trust me, I'm not the only one that cross-shop the TL with the entry-mid range of the 5 Series or the A6....magazines (Edmunds for example) acknowledge that...Actually the TL is more luxurious of the A4 (not the S4), also just becuase of bigger dislacement, V6 engines
Thanks for proving my point....you were already stretched too thin in your budget for the TSX price and you could not fork the little extra for a car you really liked more (and it had, IMHO, a better value proposition)....there was always the BMW 1 Series.....
You do not understand that a big part of the image for a luxury brand is its historical heritage made of decades and decades of building superior cars and exclusivity.
Audi, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti simply lack that...period...is not something you can buy or build in few years making good luxury cars...it takes time....in the 70s Audi was building ugly econoboxes when BMW and Mercedes were building dream cars...Audi is for VW nothing more than what Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are for their mainstream corporate owners... premium divisions that shares platforms, components and engines with their non premium cousins.....Audi tries to piss longer offering super high end models where the 3 Japanese don't (not because they can't but because they want to stay value competitive in the lower segments where the bulk of the business is done)
and yes, sometimes Audi, with their halo models succeed in convincing a guy that his A4 is more luxurious than my TL
Mercedes and BMW have a continuous history on their side since the early decades of the automotive industry...great heritage...they were building aircraft engines (like Rolls Royce)...when in the 50's Mercedes made people dream about ttheir 300 SL gull-wing doors where was Audi?? or Lexus?? or Infiniti??
Jaguar in the past was almost able to approach Mercedes in image and heritage...but too many corporate misshaps, unrealiability, lack of funding to stay at the top marred that reputation.
Because Honda made the NSX or Nissan the GT-R it doesn't make that cars Ferrari fighters (in the image department)..the same is with Hyundai with the excellent Genesis....it cannot compete in image with a 5 series
Cadillac is lately cranking out really bad-ass cars with excellent build quality and killing road abilities...that doesn't put them in the Mercedes or BMW camp when it comes to image.....
You need to distinguish "luxury" with "image".....an Acura RL is as luxurious and technologically sophisticate as any upper 5 Series offering (or even 7 series) it just does not have the image....
BMW and Mercedes do not share platform and main components with any non premium brands....something the 3 Japs and Audi cannot claim....
exclusivity....
This is what Audi fan fail to understand....
The Japanese brands on average offer better value than the Germans at comparable purchasing prices....not always...in the particular case of the TSX vs. the 328, in my opinion, the Bimmer offer the better value and I would have got the 328 hands down.
This is not about going broke.....if I shop for a car in a given price range, usually that can include 10% swings simply because I do not stretch to the last dollar when I decide on a budget......
Excellent point...the RX is as luxurious and as well built as any of the German competitors...just it does not have the image and heritage of Mercedes or BMW....but it's perfectly on par with Audi....
The A8 is as luxurious as an S Class but it's just does not have the cachet....sorry but this is it...
Again I do not give a rat you know what about heritage and image...I buy based on what the car gives to me and if Hyundai one day will make a car that I aspire to I would buy it without problem....
After all very wealthy people buy high end Lexuses and they do not care about image and heritage but ony about what they are buying...
But for some people that care about image and heritage Audi is simply not there yet....
In Europe people wait one year to get their Passats the way they want it.
One individual is waiting few months to get the TL in the color combination he wants (Black on Umber)..it's all relative...who told you that there are more people that are willing to wait for an Audi but not for an Acura?? Any statistical data??
Hmm I would like to know what changed that perception...hmmm
The only "inferiority" that I concede to Audi vs. Acura is that that Acura does not have a very high range offering...again (beating a horse to death) that does not make your A4 more luxurious than my TL....
I hope this end up the discussion.
On a light note this a funny video about car "image" (Japanese Vs. German) and salesman pressure tactics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2zh2oFYs0g
11-11-2010, 02:31 PM
#1667
You need to distinguish "luxury" with "image".....an Acura RL is as luxurious and technologically sophisticate as any upper 5 Series offering (or even 7 series) it just does not have the image....
BMW and Mercedes do not share platform and main components with any non premium brands....something the 3 Japs and Audi cannot claim....
exclusivity....
11-11-2010, 03:27 PM
#1671
11-11-2010, 03:29 PM
#1672
The sizzle in the Steak
Gray/silver hard plastic center stack in the RL is what kills it.
Same for the Hyundai acres of black hard plastic on the center console...combined with a cheapo looking analog clock.
Same for the Hyundai acres of black hard plastic on the center console...combined with a cheapo looking analog clock.
11-11-2010, 03:37 PM
#1673
^^
Right 100%.
Yesterday I want to the Audi dealer.
A black A8 full, 4.2 TDi: 115 000 euro (170 000$).
I can tell you that is Bentley Continental level.
Things amazing like the Bang&Olufsen sound system 1500w that costs 8500 euro (13 000$), the wonderful front seats (22 different positions), the LCD
screen with Google Earth....
pure high tech...
this car is simply great.
The dealer told me that from the base price list (in Italy is 79 000 euro for a 3.0 TDi) you can get a car with 50 000 euro (75 000$) of options ....
Hyundai? please...
Right 100%.
Yesterday I want to the Audi dealer.
A black A8 full, 4.2 TDi: 115 000 euro (170 000$).
I can tell you that is Bentley Continental level.
Things amazing like the Bang&Olufsen sound system 1500w that costs 8500 euro (13 000$), the wonderful front seats (22 different positions), the LCD
screen with Google Earth....
pure high tech...
this car is simply great.
The dealer told me that from the base price list (in Italy is 79 000 euro for a 3.0 TDi) you can get a car with 50 000 euro (75 000$) of options ....
Hyundai? please...
Last edited by krio; 11-11-2010 at 03:39 PM.
11-11-2010, 04:15 PM
#1674
If MMC Accord can get 5 star safety ratings. I am pretty sure MMC TL can also get 5 stars. and that will be car lighter than Audi A6/BMW 5/M37 AWD can still pull 0.92g.
I am dam sure about 6speed auto Honda much faster/fuel efficient than 8speed BMW with similar hp and much lower torque.
11-11-2010, 04:16 PM
#1675
Safety Car
^^
Right 100%.
Yesterday I want to the Audi dealer.
A black A8 full, 4.2 TDi: 115 000 euro (170 000$).
I can tell you that is Bentley Continental level.
Things amazing like the Bang&Olufsen sound system 1500w that costs 8500 euro (13 000$), the wonderful front seats (22 different positions), the LCD
screen with Google Earth....
pure high tech...
this car is simply great.
The dealer told me that from the base price list (in Italy is 79 000 euro for a 3.0 TDi) you can get a car with 50 000 euro (75 000$) of options ....
Hyundai? please...
Right 100%.
Yesterday I want to the Audi dealer.
A black A8 full, 4.2 TDi: 115 000 euro (170 000$).
I can tell you that is Bentley Continental level.
Things amazing like the Bang&Olufsen sound system 1500w that costs 8500 euro (13 000$), the wonderful front seats (22 different positions), the LCD
screen with Google Earth....
pure high tech...
this car is simply great.
The dealer told me that from the base price list (in Italy is 79 000 euro for a 3.0 TDi) you can get a car with 50 000 euro (75 000$) of options ....
Hyundai? please...
doesn't A8 now have 3G connection? i know they have wifi hotspot chip in it
11-11-2010, 04:18 PM
#1676
Safety Car
Honda has put money in alot of way that ur not seeing it. have you looked at wear & tear of suspension/wornout tires of Jaquar/BMW 5 series in long term test. or the light weight SH-AWD platform.
If MMC Accord can get 5 star safety ratings. I am pretty sure MMC TL can also get 5 stars. and that will be car lighter than Audi A6/BMW 5/M37 AWD can still pull 0.92g.
I am dam sure about 6speed auto Honda much faster/fuel efficient than 8speed BMW with similar hp and much lower torque.
If MMC Accord can get 5 star safety ratings. I am pretty sure MMC TL can also get 5 stars. and that will be car lighter than Audi A6/BMW 5/M37 AWD can still pull 0.92g.
I am dam sure about 6speed auto Honda much faster/fuel efficient than 8speed BMW with similar hp and much lower torque.
11-11-2010, 04:22 PM
#1677
Hmm I should look at the "hard plastic" but we have somewhat digest the seat nets in the Audis....hmmm
11-11-2010, 04:23 PM
#1678
Honda has put money in alot of way that ur not seeing it. have you looked at wear & tear of suspension/wornout tires of Jaquar/BMW 5 series in long term test. or the light weight SH-AWD platform.
If MMC Accord can get 5 star safety ratings. I am pretty sure MMC TL can also get 5 stars. and that will be car lighter than Audi A6/BMW 5/M37 AWD can still pull 0.92g.
I am dam sure about 6speed auto Honda much faster/fuel efficient than 8speed BMW with similar hp and much lower torque.
If MMC Accord can get 5 star safety ratings. I am pretty sure MMC TL can also get 5 stars. and that will be car lighter than Audi A6/BMW 5/M37 AWD can still pull 0.92g.
I am dam sure about 6speed auto Honda much faster/fuel efficient than 8speed BMW with similar hp and much lower torque.
Many people don't know how to look under the skin....
11-11-2010, 04:40 PM
#1679
^^
Right 100%.
Yesterday I want to the Audi dealer.
A black A8 full, 4.2 TDi: 115 000 euro (170 000$).
I can tell you that is Bentley Continental level.
Things amazing like the Bang&Olufsen sound system 1500w that costs 8500 euro (13 000$), the wonderful front seats (22 different positions), the LCD
screen with Google Earth....
pure high tech...
this car is simply great.
The dealer told me that from the base price list (in Italy is 79 000 euro for a 3.0 TDi) you can get a car with 50 000 euro (75 000$) of options ....
Hyundai? please...
Right 100%.
Yesterday I want to the Audi dealer.
A black A8 full, 4.2 TDi: 115 000 euro (170 000$).
I can tell you that is Bentley Continental level.
Things amazing like the Bang&Olufsen sound system 1500w that costs 8500 euro (13 000$), the wonderful front seats (22 different positions), the LCD
screen with Google Earth....
pure high tech...
this car is simply great.
The dealer told me that from the base price list (in Italy is 79 000 euro for a 3.0 TDi) you can get a car with 50 000 euro (75 000$) of options ....
Hyundai? please...
Too bad that the Equus cost about half that and gives you leg rests, a small refrigerator and refrigerated cup holders. massage seats front and rear with remore control, a soon to arrive 500 hp engine, etc...
This is a tongue in cheek Motor Trend video comparing a Hyndai Equus with the Bentley Mulsanne (a car costing 300K euros in Europe....basically a 400K dollar car...) where the Corean sedan come out actually on his own in the comparison and trumps the British apartment on wheels in some ergonomic/gizmo areas ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DphtJJxDnBQ
As any marketing expert will tell you, perception is almost everything in a luxury brand...it trumps sometimes technical prowess, amount of gizmos, etc...I just do not let my mind being clouded by brand image....
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-11-2010 at 04:43 PM.
11-11-2010, 04:52 PM
#1680
I find the lack of the vertical handle in the door panels of the A8 and the 5 Series rather el cheapo (and ergonomically lacking)....even the TSX has double door handles in the door panels...