saturno_v

I have no agenda...frankly I don't care...I do not find that Acura needs to get "their shit" together because in the segments where they do compete they do well..again my personal opinion....you think otherwise...point taken.

Sales talk..they weathering the storm quite well and dealership showrooms seems quite full (at least in the Northwest)l...I never had to fight as much as I did for the TL to get the deal I wanted....

I did not bludgeon anybody, I just respond to uninformed unfounded assertions, however I will refrain even to do so in the future...seems to me that your either join the bashing or you are a "fanboy"....I respectfully say that I'm a quite bit disappointed at the level of discussion I been seeing on here...technical knowledge seems to be a premium...

Actually I do have criticism for Acura..I would love to see them compete in more upscale segments because they have the potential to do so..that is the only thing I can think of...

I do not even feel the "attachment" that many of the bashers declare to have...again I do not care....if tomorrow another rmanufacturer makes a more compelling product for me I will switch in no time, I hold no brand allegiances....for what I was looking for in this particular moment the TL was the best for me, tomorrow who knows....

If makes you happy I will openly declare how superiors the German competion is if makes you happy....

This thread is over as far as I'm concerned.

saturno_v

Totally agree...I already said that I admire Lexus and my ideal car at the moment would be a Lexus GS with manual transmission and a vectorial AWD system.

smarty666

Well GS is due up soon for a redesign and it needs it b/c its one of the few Lexus models that doesn't sell well!

Belzebutt

Ok, so now we know the only car you really liked to begin with was the TL, and now you're just rationalizing your choice and explaining how it made perfect sense objectively, after you've already committed to it subjectively.

The problem is, those objective reasons just aren't there. You just said it: "I cannot get from anybody else a sedan as powerful, as large". The reason is it's a sedan that provides good value vs. a similarly priced car, by cutting in other areas (that obviously you overlook or don't find important).

I wrote long ago in this thread, and even posted a link to that post for your benefit, where I state EXACTLY the same thing. Your TL is at the same level of luxury as my A4. It's below the S4, but at the same level as the A4. It has a more powerful engine but less luxury and then end up even. And that is why they cost about the same. So the reason Audi is able to charge as much for a 4-cyl A4 as Acura for a powerful V6 (or BMW for an I6) is because Audi has the added luxury factor. You need to either agree or tell me why on earth Audi is able to charge the same money for a 4-cyl and still sell lots of cars and make a profit.

Belzebutt

LOL, one look at your Avatar and I could have guessed you'd be guy to defend Haldex.

Belzebutt

Another reason why Acuras are cheaper... they use less real leather. I guess this is a surprise to you.

SSFTSX

This is not surprize to any one. Acura offer less for less money. it is not Value brand. BMW/Lexus/MB are Value brands as they offer alot more choices, latest technology on cometitve prices. even avg discounts are far larger on them.

knavinusa

You got me. I test drove the A4 before I bought this car though and I didn't find an incredibly huge difference.

winstrolvtec

Let me ask you a question, if you are in the market for a luxury sedan RIGHT NOW that is a large mid sized sedan, lets say over 95 cu ft of passenger volume, which is not an A4 or 3 series, C class, IS, etc, and want a 6MT and AWD combo which do you choose?

Let's rewind to a year ago from now, I ask you what were your choices for such a vehicle? (Again larger mid sized, luxury, and AWD + 6MT)

Maybe this will help you understand where we are coming from. Trust me, I know your position on it, and understand it completely as I often used to think the same exact way but I feel differently now about Acura's position because I understand what it is they are trying to do but it just so happens that they offer a vehicle which hit a unique combination that I have always wanted and hoped more would offer. Perhaps that is the difference.

winstrolvtec

^Some brands just don't offer a product that appeals to me, or everyone for that matter, but that doesn't mean I bash or question them or don't like anything they offer or don't respect what they do. I know one thing, that I would find no real joy or purpose not owning a BMW or Audi, etc, and going to their forums to lend my perspective of them, especially if it was not a good one. I am not sure what I would be accomplishing.

Belzebutt

There are subjective reasons to buy a TL but if he says he'd buy one regardless of price, he's clearly buying it because he just wants THAT car. He even said he also shopped for a 5-series but the version with more power was too expensive for him.

Belzebutt

How about if you owned both a BMW and an Acura and you went to both boards and you talked about both cars in the "Automotive News" section of one of the boards because you like to hear what other people who perhaps drive different cars like to bring to the discussion? Does that make sense?

Belzebutt

It's a nice car, one of my friends owns one and I drove it a few times. I never drove the quattro though. I'm trying to convince my dad to buy the TDI. I'm telling him to wait until the next refresh which I thought was next year, but I just read in C&D that it's actually in 2013... he might need it before then.

Shift_Acura

This forum is full of fan boys and hypocrites. The fan boys go around being fan boys and the hypocrites go around bashing Acura, even though at some point these people bought Acura's themselves. Even the members who bought Acura products a long time ago probably remember being critisized by non Acura owners for buying "FWD understeering underpowered rebadged Hondas". And now that those same people have moved on to other brands they can critisize the current Acura owners. Its the old automotive forum member attitude of "It was a good brand when I owned one but now they just suck!"

I think the new TL is ugly. BUT its the best car Acura has ever produced. Over 300 Hp, SH-AWD, 6MT and a great interior. If you think its a POS then what does that make your Acura?

This is the brand that we all bought into. And rite now they are the best they have ever been - just like every other brand. They have more powerful motors, more advanced features, better quality materials etc - just like every other brand. It doesnt matter if an Integra brings back feelings of nostolgia and you wish there were still cars like that - A mazda 2 handles as well as an Integra now - everyones figured out how to make good cars. So if some of you think Acura is so bad now then what were you thinking when you bought your rebadged FWD Hondas? Or was it ok then but not anymore?

The Germans have been making superior RWD sport sedans for decades now, is this forum just a gathering of idiots who couldn't find the BMW dealership?

TSX-Tuner

Great post. I like viewing AcuraZine because the members are generally older than other forums. So there is a sense of maturity I expect from this forum, but some discussions get real out of hand.

winstrolvtec

That I or him like the styling would be subjective but the larger sedan, with AWD and 6MT are objective reasons. I also considered the last gen 535 xDrive 6MT and could have leased the 535xi at $60k for about what I financed the TL for which was under $38k, I still chose the TL for it's value proposition and performance.

The only reason to buy the 5 over it was for subjective reasonings IMO, which was mostly the added level of luxury but not worth $20k extra IMO. Objectively there are a few added features in the 5 but nothing crazy and the TL has the electric steering and active torque vectoring as well as better crash, resale, and reliability ratings. Less luxurious but the better financial and automotive decision, IMO.

The new 5 adds even more distinction over a TL but also went up in price and lost the 6MT and AWD combo as well as the xDrive option in the 528 at the same time, so that raises the TL value proposition even more to a consumer like myself.

I would imagine Saturno feels the same way and that is what he meant by regardless of his financing that he would get a TL because he feels that it is the best value in the entire market and too good a deal to pass up, not that it is the best in every way just that cars similar to that, in almost every category, usually go for 30%-35% more and there are not many products available like it.

I think that is great actually but that's not the really the case with everyone and why some insist on only having negative opinions of cars and brands and not talking about actual objective comparisons and details is beyond me.

Then there is the issue with the higher amount of like minded individuals here sticking together and sharing the same opinions on a constant basis while someone like me or Saturno come in and see something completely different and share our perspectives but few people don't care to hear or discuss what we have to say or our perspectives on anything, only because it is not the same.

You get labeled a fanboy whether it is called for or not and then we limit our discussion because we are being outcasted and therefore the whole point of what you just suggested that there should be a civil sharing of perspectives doesn't actually exist because some don't want to allow it.

Maybe because it contradicts the common ideas and themes that are often discussed here. I don't really know what it is all about only that it is what goes on and all while some are now saying that they want to see what the TL SH may be all about now because of the fanboys crazy Acura rants. That's the idea though, to be open minded and not write anything off until it gets it's fair shake.

fsttyms1

A lot of things have changed since i bought my acura. When i purchased mine they were a great value vs content. Not many others could offer what they did. They were better back then, now no. Now they look like something i would want to drive into a brick wall to make look better. They allowed every one to catch up and havent remained ahead of every one else. That is the problem, they are behind in just about every thing. I dont see them any where near what they once were.

No this is the area that hurts fanboys feelings, and is a area where most have move past out dated hondas. Dare i say, If you dont like it stay out of it and stay in the model specific areas where you might not get your feelings hurt?

fsttyms1

And at what point do we consider something as have given it a fair shake? I think i have given them the "fair shake" in my 15+ years of having owned and driven them. Am i along with others not allowed to reach our own conclusions as to really not caring for the direction they have gone or do we have to bite our lips because we are on a acura forum. Maybe many of us are hoping (knowing that they do read these) that Acura "may" see some of our displeasure and try to accommodate some of the old die-hards that are having a hard time liking what we are given? Again, this is car talk, its devoted to all brands, It doesnt mean because we are on a acura forum we all have to like them. Those that like them can stay and discuss their like in the specific model areas. This area is for ALL makes, some will like, some wont.

pttl

^
Thank you.

and

at the devotees of Acura who are all butt hurt because those of us who have owned more than one Acura, no longer like the direction the company is going with the cars they make.

News flash...cars change...people change...get used to it.

I guess you devotees can't appreciate, I'll purposely leave out "german makes", the new Buick Regal, The Cadillac CTS/V, The Coyote engine in the new Mustangs? That's a shame, because these are the things that make autos so f***ing great. Differences! But as a devotee of one particular brand I suppose one can't allow himself to see and appreciate the differences. Your loss I suppose.

fsttyms1 offered the best advice ever to the devotees...stay in the model specific areas where your butt is less likely to get all hurt.

Shift_Acura

No way! You are actually saying that they were only good when YOU bought an Acura. Now anyone who buys one is an idiot rite?

pttl

I'm sure he will speak for himself, but that is not what he is saying.

Stop with the paranoia.

winstrolvtec

I noticed that this statement gets followed up with this:

So it is safe to assume your displeasure with their cars is primarily in the looks. Seems you allow that to detract from other areas of the new vehicles, maybe try looking at them inside out, or base the car on how it drives and performs before finalizing judgement, especially when your case is against the former models.

Key words are YOU don't see them near where they were and a handfull of the regulars here as well but I think maybe you need to look at it differently. What is so different? They are the best Acura products to date. What were they ahead in? They never had RWD or V8, never gave me the inpression that they would, they were never the most luxurious, didn't incorporate every feature available. I am really confused by this. Perhaps your perspective has changed, the products have remained relatively consistent but advanced and improved What more do you want?

They are also more successful and profitable in recent years than in the past, right now we are seeing the effects of the economic conditions and not much more, also reflected by others brands as well.

I will be expressing myself as everyone else does and this is Automotive news not Car Talk where not much news get talked about, it more like automotive opinions. The thread is about future Honda models so you know, not what you or I think they should be but what they are working on.

Based on your harsh reactions it appears to me that it's your butt that got hurt and that is also based on all your other numerous bitter posts that are overly apparent and obvious. I am not hurt at all, I bought one of the most internet critisized car of all times knowingly so you think I care what you guys think?

Hate to break it to you but if Acura hasn't made any changes based on your crossed fingers and post bashing by now that it's not going to happen anytime soon so at what point does the anti Acura sentiment get reduced to a fair and objective perspective of them and the competiton they compete with?

And when does everyone get a say outside of the model specific threads, including real supporters and die hards and not just Acura's leftovers?

winstrolvtec

I hope you notice your double standards at play.

I offer the same advice and it's funny that this seems to be more of the issue than the cars, brands, topics, and discussions themselves. You guys just need a place that's allows you to ban together and feel productive about voicing your displeasure for the Acura brand, with a chance that they might hear you and without interruption or irregularities. That's cute, really.

Edward'TLS

100% agree.

I bought my 2G TL-S because then it had class-leading horsepower at 260 when all it's direct competitors were merely around 200hp. Cheap vinyl and plastic trims had become immaterial when I could outrun almost anything in the same class at the traffic lights.

However, other than the SH-AWD, there has not been any significant class-leading technology to be released in recent Acura products. Acura is now seriously lagging in engine output, engine technology (eg., direct injection), transmission technology (eg., dual-clutch auto), hybrid technology, diesel technology, etc., etc.

Even the SH-AWD, which was class-leading 5 years ago, is no longer class-leading when other auto makers such as Audi, BMW, Nissan, Porsche, and Volvo, have now been releasing their own versions of torque-vectoring AWD.
Especially when the other auto makers are pairing their torque-vectoring AWD with V8 power, which put the 305hp-V6 SH-AWD at a disadvantage.

Some people might think being negative with Acura is Acura bashing. This is not bashing by any means. These are the desperate calls from Acura fans who want the Acura products to be great, and the Acura brand to become famous. These are the functions and/or features that Acura buyers want in future Acura products, and the company direction that Acura buyers want the Acura brand to be heading in.

Listening to buyers' needs and building products that buyers want, are what make a product great and a company to be successful. (The 4G-TL peck and the RL package are definitely not what buyers want.)

This is like father-son or teacher-student relationship with us being the father/teacher and the Acura brand being the son/student. We, as buyers of Acura products, want the Acura brand to head in the right direction, and the Acura products to be desirable (=sellable).

Just wish that the upcoming MMC 2012 TL would have a dual-clutch-auto 350hp Type-S trim.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

A-friggin-men brother! This is exactly what many of the OG members have been saying for years and what the fanboys just don't understand.

mrdeeno

Could've fooled me that you didn't care. I love it when people justify that they are right because it's their "opinion". You're entitled to your opinion...but just because its an opinion doesn't mean it's true. Any moron can have an "opinion" that their POS '86 ford escort can handle better than a lotus elise...they're entitled to it. It may be WRONG, but they're entitled to it, just like how you and SSFTSUX are entitled to your opinions, no matter how factually WRONG they are.

Wow, Acura must be making those Ferarri dealers jealous with so many more sales and people fight over such an ugly car.

Right, because we can't all know like you that Acura seats are completely wrapped in leather! How dumb of us!

winstrolvtec

Here's the issue, we all have opinion, the consensus here though is that Acura needs to get their shit togther based on a handful of OPINIONS of their cars today. Can't you make that argument for any brand? Why just Acura, specfically? What are those FACTS that decide they need to get it straight, as I only see opinions.

The problem is most are coming from a point of view that suggests they need to improve to win back my business while others see it as though they don't necessarily need anything more than what they do and are working on to continue to be one of the better selling luxury brands.

Then we hear the they were so much better when I had one argument. Objectively that's not true, I will say they are a bit less competitive then before but that might be because they are doing better finacially so they relaxed and when everyone jumped on the RWD bandwagon they resisted but that's not going to happen so complaining along those lines is futile and that includes the V8 as well.

The TL never offered AWD or anything above 300 HP, the two things that everyone always insisted that it needed. The LATEST one has that. It now gets mid level consideration as a tweener something it never received before because of that. The TSX needed a V6, it got one, the lineup needs a 6AT for added performance and fuel economy, it's almost on every model, the J series is still very competitive, that's wearing thin but a new one is almost done. A coupe, full sized sedan, and sub model are coming out, we should expect to see an SH TSX at some point. Revised grills and toned down styling is also making the rounds.

That is more to the point of the thread about future models but how much more do they have to get their shit together from there on? Because hoping for much of anything else and you will be holding your breath. Sorry to sound like a fanboy and have to be so contradicting but I am just being a realist. Why do I get the feeling that no matter what they do the same indivduals here won't be happy?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

IMO, I don't see how Acura is getting behind.....if they are behind now, then I think they were even further behind before. Like others have mentioned, beside being cheap, previous Acuras didn't really have any strong points. The only exception would be the Integra. However, that is not exactly a luxury vehicle IMO and I am not sure what cars it was competing with.

Someone mentioned about how Acuras used to have class leading power and gave the 2g TL-S as an example. First, the J series back then was kinda new, and now it's at the end of its cycle. Second, sure, the J32A2 used to make 260hp back then. But it wasn't the fastest either. The 231hp 330i was as fast, if not faster. Let's not talk about its handling. I believe C/D got 0.81g. Can someone remind me how much g the current TL is pulling? 0.93g? Also, it didn't take long for others to catch up and match the 2g TL-s power, namely the G35.

People always talk about how Honda is a motor company but its engines are getting outdated. To a certain degree, that's true - if you only talk about the "big things" like direct injection. But people don't seem to look at the detail. For instance, you have to step up to the Z06 to get a forged crank in a Corvette product. The J series has that. I don't know, but whenever I read the press release, I do see a lot of racing techs put in the engine design, stuff that other engines don't have. Don't get me wrong, the J series is getting old, and it doesn't outperform others anymore. It's still competitive though. Obviously just like you guys, I expect Honda engines to blow the competition away and I think we will see that when the new engine series comes out.

SSFTSX

I dont see Acura falling behinds. MDX/TL are the best handling vehicles in there category. TSX V6 is best handling FWD car with best real world fuel economy despite having 5speed Auto & no sport setup.
Acura has strong record in reliability/resale vaue and quality of put together various parts.
You just cant measure brand progress by amount of new technology alone
Brand has progressed alot in past 10 years. Much more than Lexus/Infiniti. when sale of high value vehicles are concerned.

SSFTSX

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/honda...-us-28888.html

Home / News /
Honda CR-Z Is Award-Winner in Japan, Dissed in U.S.

Published November 10, 2010
The Japanese Prime Minister, Kan Naoto, is presenting Japan’s Good Design Grand Award today to the Honda CR-Z sporty hybrid. This follows yesterday’s news that the CR-Z was named the 2011 winner of Japan’s prestigious Car Of The Year award. These honors punctuate a triumphant first year for the CR-Z, in which the hybrid greatly surpassed sales expectations in Japan and enjoyed an overwhelmingly positive reception in its home country. In March 2010, its first month on the Japanese market, the CR-Z moved more than 10,000 units—10 times Honda's monthly sales target for the vehicle.

Meanwhile, back in the United States—where the CR-Z was released this summer—critics have been rough on the vehicle, with most complaining that it lacks performance or fuel efficiency, or both. The CR-Z offers 122 horsepower and average fuel economy rating of 37 mpg.

Depending on your slant, it's true the CR-Z isn't the most fuel-efficient hybrid out there, or the sportiest subcompact. For many American critics, the CR-Z's inability to be best at anything rendered it a failure at everything. The 2010 CR-Z failed to reach the short list of candidates for this year’s North American Car of the Year award.

Luckily for Honda, the U.S. consumer market has been somewhat more forgiving. Since its first full month of availability in August, the CR-Z has become the fourth most popular hybrid in the U.S. Sales have been consistent, with Honda racking up more than 3,300 sales in about 9 weeks. Those figures may not be as robust as sales numbers in Japan, but neither is America's current appetite for hybrids or small cars.

Get Over the Nostalgia
The CR-Z has suffered bad reviews mostly because U.S. auto critics have not been able to rekindle their love affair with the discontinued Honda CR-X—the 1980s automotive icon that served as an inspiration for the new hybrid CR-Z. The CR-X is remembered for its blend of sportiness and efficiency in a small package, as well as its adaptability as a tuner car. But like many memories of past loves, they can deceive.

"People forget what the CR-X really was, or they think it’s something that it’s not,” said Woody Rogers, who owned and loved his 1988 Honda CR-X. “By today’s standards, that old CR-X is painfully slow, small, unsafe, cramped, and has poor visibility. Yet, it was fun to drive. Compared to everything else that was available in 1988, that thing was a gas.”

Rogers, a tire information specialist at Tirerack.com, was very impressed by his recent experience with the CR-Z on the company’s test track. "Compared to our old CR-X, the CR-Z's engine was more well-refined. The fit, the feel, the look, the fittings in the car, it was so reminiscent." After reading the bad reviews, Rogers didn’t want to like the CR-Z—but after his drive was considering trading in his Mini Cooper S for the hybrid.

For those who have been turned-off by the CR-Z's perceived lack of power, Automotive News recently suggested that Honda will produce a high-performance version of the hybrid. Rogers likes the idea. “If the CR-Z had just a little more power, I think they’d really have something,” he said.


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pttl

It's alright if you're a fanboi and you admit it. I just can't imagine being so blindly loyal to a car company.

Lets make it simple....Acura....build a good looking car that is fun to drive.
The TSX is as close as it gets right now, and it's still not good enough. (for me)

The 4G TL? Well, it's not what I expected.
Like fsttyms1 said a collision with a brick wall would be an improvement.

It's so bad that the MMC will "revise" the cow catcher, and the "tramp stamp" on the ass end will be "revised" as well.

Want a real world example of how bad the 4G TL is around here? My local dealer has 3 4Gs sitting on their lot with "after market" grills on them, and the tramp stamp painted body color, just so they can get them off their lot.
Good stuff! All signs of a successful car.

SSFTSX

TL is way futuristic when you look bland ES/GS/5/M37/E etc.
With aeropackage and proper wheel setup

pttl

^

You have to post pics? We know what the squatting dogs ass looks like. We know the tramp stamp.

Good job by you.

Shift_Acura

The car that would look better after running into a brick wall is still a better car than anything you or I own. At the end of the day, 4G SH-AWD owners are having a better ownership experience than anyone else on here who bought other Acura products. They have the best performance and best interior Acura has ever made. Yes you can write off the car based simply on looks - I would too. But I am an objective person and I realize that overall Acura still makes very high quality cars - thats not saying that they make better cars than anyone on the planet

Shift_Acura

My 2003 Maxima has 255hp and 246 lb-ft or torque. I would like to see you try to outrun me at the lights.

Lets use the Maxima as an example. In 2002 there was a 5 hp difference in favor of the TYPE-S TL. In 2009 the TL-AWD has 305 HP and the Maxima has 290 HP. 15 hp advantage to the TL (I am using your Type-S even though the Maxima should be compared to the base TL)

Lexus and Infiniti are not using dual-clutch trans, or diesel engines in the states. Do you think they are lagging in technology too?

As far as engine output is considered, well thats not something thats debateable. Here is the TL among competitors:

Mercedes C350: 268hp
BMW 335i: 300hp
Lexus GS: 303hp
Infiniti G37: 330hp
TL-SH AWD: 305 hp

A Cadillac CTS has 304hp with Direct Injection. Thats 1 less than the outdated and sans technology TL motor. So the TL has the second highest power output amongst these similarily priced competitors.

I dont even care for the TL or any of these cars that I mentioned. I cannot afford them or the gas/maintenance bills that that they bring. I would just like too see your claims backed up by some numbers. (eg. your claim that TL competitors had merely 200hp)

Again, just because you own it, doesnt make it the bestest car in the world.

pttl

I don't see it that way at all. And by the way I never said that Acura doesn't make a good car. And it's good that you can acknowledge that Acura doesn't make the best cars.

My ownership experience has been basically trouble free. How are 4G SHAWD owners having a better ownership experience? Is it because the new generation bumped up the HP output on the car? Is is because the 4G added the AWD option? Isn't it incumbent on a car maker to keep their car competitive in the market? The 4G had BETTER be improved over the 3G. It's the way it should be. I will say that the base 4G is not that much improved on the 3G TL.

HOWEVER an area where Acura FAILED = looks. A car doesn't have to keep growing to obese proportions with nauseating looks, not just my opinion, that every professional review I've ever read has made a snide or negative comment about. I've already mentioned above what my local dealer is trying to do to sell the 4G

I believe my ownership experience has been right where it should be for an 06 TL. I also have the ability to look at my car and think it's still a good looking car even now. I don't know what 4G owners think when they look at their car.

As good as my ownership experience has been for the past 10 years with Acura, my days with them are numbered because there are too many other alternatives out there that interest me, which are ALSO aesthetically pleasing. Sorry, not only do I need a good soul, but I need a pretty face before I can take the girl home.

SSFTSX

Acura TL is ranked among the highest in Consumer reports. After MMC it will be only car with all 5 stars safety like Honda Accord that surpasses newest BMW 5.

Interior is very excellent design. TL striking looks are second to none. with MMC it will be the best in the class as no other car will handle like it or as fast or fuel efficient on 6cylinder/6AT.

knavinusa

There's no doubt the new TL has a nice interior, and the push-button start is a nice touch. But I remember looking at a TL again after my 3G was gone and I just thought it looked way too bloated.

pttl

Put your money where your mouth is and buy one.

speedemon90

I'll give it that the 4g tl has a nice looking, and probably high quality interior(never sat in one so I can't judge that). Anyway it does not look good, dunno how you see that.

As far as handling goes, I'm sure the 335i or 335xi can out handle the tl. Probably even the 5 series. Fuel consumption. Acura tl 17/25mpg. 335i 17/28, 535i 20/30. All 6 cylinder engines with roughly the same output numbers and the acura is the least fuel efficient. Audi's A4 also beats it in fuel efficiency. Mercedes C350 ties it.