yohan81718

yea.. not everybody who bought TSX or TL (or any other comparable japanese cars) are willing to fork that to buy germans...

check your common sense

saturno_v

So basically you are proving my point...they do not see enough extra value for the German to fork that little bit more!!!If they want it they would do it.... Thanks!!

Another example.....in the last 5 years the Kia Spectra was a very strong value proposition vs the competition...however the Mazda 3 (a comparable version for the Mazda was running well above 10% more in price) was a much stronger vehicle significantly outselling the Korean...if people see extra value they buy...

Japanese premium car buyers find value and appeal in their purchase......they do not buy them because they cannot/want to afford the German competiton...that is pure nonsense....maybe there are people like that (some young individuals that spend their entire paycheck for a car payment) but they are the exception rather than the rule....

fsttyms1

I have a 2000, there was a much larger difference in a loaded 3 back then

And its not about being able to afford the 10% difference. It was about being logical and getting something that "supposedly" had better reliability, and better value for the money. There is no shame or any thing wrong with being able to afford a 80k car and buying a 28k car.

smarty666

Great point, and that is what a lot of these German car buyers don't get or understand and most likely never will!

yohan81718

no i'm not. go check your teenager's logic.

just because you can afford and have money to, doesn't mean you go out there and buy the car you want. life has more meaning to it than just buying a nicer car, savings in particular.

oh well.. this is off topic.

kthxbye

SSFTSX

It is far cheaper to sit in MB C than TSX V6. All these German brands are Value brands now with attractive financing and maintainance deals. It is not 1980s early 90s.
Only large boats are expensive. the rest are as common as buying Honda Accord. when all incentives are included the price difference is less than 10% and your getting car with 7speed auto.

Belzebutt

No, actually from 2010 to 2011 it's ONLY the 8sp that's different in the whole drivetrain. No difference in tuning. You're just going to have to accept that it's better or go on fooling yourself.

You're right about that in particular, the Japanese do give more car for the money and that's why I bought a TSX. But that's not what luxury is about, luxury is about paying more for more upscale materials, nicer styling, and little things. It's not about getting more checkmarks in a feature matrix for the same price.

Belzebutt

I think it's becoming clear that you never shopped for a car yourself, or you would know that in order to get a 328i optioned comparably to a TSX you'd have to spend way more than 10%. Back when I was looking, to get all the stuff I considered essential like sunroof, leather, HID lights, HomeLink, 18" wheels etc. I would have had to spend more than my price range, while the TSX was in my price range.

The BWM is luxury. The TSX is what I would call "luxury value" and it skimps on some things in order to be cheaper feature for feature compared to a BMW or Audi. If you find a BMW at the same price, it will be a stripper and few people are interested in those.

Belzebutt

I don't know what your financial skills are but with that mindset I'm sure you're not near the top... When I shop for a car I pretty quickly establish a price ceiling, and I try to get the nicest car I can fit in there. 10% can make a difference, and it depends on how you option the car too. I was in this situation only it was with a $50K+ car. It's perfectly reasonable to say yes to a 50K car but no to a 52K car if 50K is the maximum you intended to spend.


If you think people who buy $30K cars don't care about a 10% difference then you clearly don't know many of them.

Belzebutt

Absolutely, I would rank Lexus at the same luxury level as BMW and Audi, and above Acura. Their interiors are just as good as Audi but with more modern lines and as good quality materials, and much better than BMW. As far as driving dynamics they aim for a quieter softer ride than BMW and Audi.

SSFTSX

I mean your comparing 4cylinder

BMW has Convenience package $2350
Premiume package $2650.
These two packages every thing and much more
Like Comfort access key, auto dimming mirrors, park distance control,power rear sun shade, adoptive light contorl, BMW assist. various choice of leather interior.

These things will be extra $1500 on TSX if Acura offered it.

Navigation system is separate $2100. but this navigation is wide screen HDD not simple CD navigation of TSX. so here another $1000 difference.


So essentially differential cost of those items is $4500. Now subtract $2k of free 4 year maintainance. it comes down to $2500.

So you buy TSX 4clinder tech for $32K MSRP ($29k transaction cost).
BMW 328 starts at $33k add all those items. cost is $37500 with transaction cost of $35K based on true delta.

You will not get 6speed auto/DI engine/Vented brakes in TSX. these things alone add $5k to car price. LED lights are another cost issue.

so which is value and which one is not? when you look at customizable options, colors on BMW 328i. I am not even going into Sport suspension choice that will give you 18inch.
ACURA simply dont give choice on 4cylinder TSX.

saturno_v

Ok let me concede to you this point...the great 8 speed to better handle the great power of your 4 cylinder 2 liter engine....I do not care about slushboxes because I drive a manual thank God...if it is so dramatic tell me why Lexus, which did introduce it in the LS, is not offering it yet in its V6...maybe because is not worth it?? I'm pretty sure the fuel consumption is dramatically lower than the 5 speed....hmmmm I take a much more engine refinement, better suspension setup, etc.. over few extra gears...to each his own


Really....what about the big black spanking new TL SH-AWD 6 speed parked in my garage that I got almost a month ago? (and I did cross-shopped both 335 and 535)
My wife is next this winter with either an Infiniti or an Acura as well.


You continuously contradict yourself...first you blabber about Acura being FWD, weight distribution, etc, then you say, word for word: "But that's not what luxury is about, luxury is about paying more for more upscale materials, nicer styling, and little things. It's not about getting more checkmarks in a feature matrix for the same price."

When it was time to get your TSX you instead went for the "checkmarks", your words again: "Back when I was looking, to get all the stuff I considered essential like sunroof, leather, HID lights, HomeLink, 18" wheels etc"

So get your priorities right...what do you want...driving pleasure, superior finishing or...."laundry list"??

I did post for you a price to price comparison between a base TSX and a base 328.....for about 3.5K the 328 has a much more pleasant and powerful engine, nicer driving experience, sportier feeling and, according to you, just better build and finishing.....the 328 is the better value proposition....they do not give you essentials even on a base trim?? No air conditioning?? Cranking windows?? Not a decent stereo?? Yes they do....then, again, you went for the "checkmarks" of the supposedly inferior TSX....you seem a bit confused about what you really want...

SSFTSX nailed to the last dollar....let me answer for you...I may be wrong but I suspect you may have stretched yourself VERY thin just to get that TSX and could not come up with whatever little extra monthly payment to get the Bimmer.....am I right??

Trust me, between me and my wife we are SOLIDLY in the income braket our dear president want to tax more...

Me and people I hang around with usually buy the cars we want...and yes I do have an orientative budget but 10% difference (or even more...I was cross-shopping the 535i when I got my TL) is not going to prevent me from getting what I want.....the mentality you exposed is typical of many wannabe attitude and "I'm stretching myself to the max" mindset.

Do not put Audi and BMW (or Mercedes) in the same image level...no amount of blabbering is going to change that....not matter how loudly Audi fanboys cry (this is one of their obsession..to be regarded on par with the other two....it is one of their main concerns).....you see, the vast majority of Japanese buyers (the ones I know) do not really care about how big is the image, impressing my neighbours, the brand, the brand....this is something that German Wagens aficionados obsess about......and you guys are willing to spend more dollars for that...more power to you, I'm pretty sure there are lots of forums where you can hang around with like-minded people....what are you doing on an Acura forum anyway?? To let us know how fantastic is to drive a teutonic vehicle?? To tell us how we, poor Acura drivers, do ot understand pefection?? Don't worry, we are coping.....

I told you before, I personally owned 2 Audis in the past (almost top range at that time not entry levels A4), a BMW, my dad owned few Mercedes...I never did look back....

knavinusa

Have you considered that maybe people who cross-shop BMW and Acura might be taking maintenance costs into consideration as well? Last time I heard the Germans charge much more for simple maintenance than the Japanese do. It's not only about that "10% difference" on the initial purchase. And why is it that you believe just because people aren't willing to pay that extra 10% that they must be stretching their budget? Not all car shoppers have the same mentality as you do - you're a car enthusiast; they may not be.

As for this whole discussion regarding Audi not being on the same level as BMW/MB/Lexus... who really cares? It seems you're the one that keeps bringing it up.

saturno_v

I'm sure they take in consideration that and they should indeed.....still if you think that a car costing a little bit more (and a bit higher maintenance cost) is such a better more refined product, if you can really afford a car in that price range you would go for it....if you think the more expensive car is not really worth the difference then you go for the better value proposition....but if you think it is worth it and you do not go for it you cannot really afford it...simple....

Someone that blabber about Acura being bad because of the FWD platform, inferior build quality, etc.... and on a 30K car does not spend the extra 3K to get the Bimmer that he/she aspire to, he/she is already stretched too thin even for the TSX...simple math.....

I'm not the one that bring it up....I just reply to whoever says it....I could not care less...many Audi owners are obsessed about it.

Edward'TLS

If taking maintenance costs into consideration, BMW is definitely the winning choice. What beats the "4-yr new car free maintenance program" that comes included with all brand new BMW's purchased in North America ? Even wear-and-tear items such as wiper blades and brake pads are included. A BMW owner virtually has to pay nothing but insurance and gas for the 1st four years of ownership.

Audi used to have the same deal but decided to discontinue the program a couple of years ago.

Belzebutt

But what if you were in the market for an auto, and they gave you an 8 sp instead of a 6 sp for "free"? That's essentially what Audi and BMW are doing now, it's a better car for the same money. You're trying to argue that this difference doesn't matter, because you're one of the very few people who insist on a manual.

And Lexus is not offering it yet because they're behind in this area. Acura is WAY behind. You're trying to tell us it doesn't matter but it's the addition of these little things that makes Audi and BMW luxury, and Acura "value luxury".

Well if you could afford a TL why couldn't you afford a 550i? Are you telling me you find the TL more desirable, higher quality and you think it's a better performing car? Or did you just find more value in it? Why doesn't everyone buy a fully-loaded TL AWD with nav? Are you telling me that all these people are stretching themselves thin, or is it just that they're not interested enough in the extra features to be willing to pay the money?

There's no contradiction. I could have got the same features on the TSX for less, but instead of leveling and swiveling lights I would have got regular HID lights. I would have got lesser-quality dash trim. It's not necessarily things that are on the feature list but they require you to pay more to get something slightly more upscale. That's luxury.

Yes, I went for "checkmarks" instead of luxury. And the TSX offered the right mix of features and performance for a good price. When I bought the A4 I paid more for the same number of features but I got some more upscale features this time that put this car in a higher luxury bracket. You would have got that too with a 535i but instead you chose value with the TL.

I don't trust any numbers our friend SSFTSX posts, but I can believe that I could have got a 3-series with similar options for about 10% more. For me the 10% simply was more than I was willing to spend on a car at the time. Maybe for you you found a car for 10% less than your maximum range and you liked it, good for you. For me the car I was happiest with at the time happened to be about as much as I wanted to spend in order to have it all paid off in a few months.

You're wrong, the A8 and R8 proves you wrong, the fact that Audi has all the luxury attributes proves you wrong, and no amount of unsubstantiated bashing is going to turn Acura in the same level of luxury *brand* as Audi and BMW. You haven't given us a single reason why Audi's below BMW and why Acura is at the same level.

Legend2TL

I kinda felt the same way about the interview, the new CEO seems to be more sincere and upfront with where Honda and Acura are now and their direction.

To me it seems Acura has always been about "smart luxury" as hokey and corny as it sounds. I wanted something nicer and sportier than a Honda but also retains the dependability, reliability, and the low cost of ownership.

Now they just have to work some on the Honda/Acura signature grills...

Hey if all these web drama queens weren't bitching on this site they'd be off on some other internet forum causing havoc over there. We can't have that

Legend2TL

IMO Audi is trying to buy it's way to tier-1. My take on it is the poor sales of A6's and A8's compared to the 5/E and 7/S catagories. Audi has excellent results with their A3/4/5 line, it's just getting that upper segment market to agree.

In terms of the R8/10, it's a great car but perhaps to those folks in that market the Ferrari's and Porsche's carry their household name and prestige higher.

And also not forget Audi's excellent racing program it's done alot for their reputation and promotion of diesel technology.

Legend2TL

I've driven 7 and 8 speed AT at the MB and Acura driving events (man I miss those days!). Honestly I thought the 8AT is a waste with the torque and power-band of the motors they were in. If anything smaller and turbo engines with their less flat torque curves need them more than V6's and V8's.

I wish my wife's Pilot was a 6AT since the ratio's are widely spaced for 5 gears it has. When I met her 66 Impala (donated to her by her grandfather) had a 2AT, now that had very wide gear spacing

Belzebutt

You're missing the point.


Yes, Japanese car buyers find value and appeal in their purchase, because Japanese cars have appeal and value. We all agree on that.

SOME of these people can't afford a comparable German car with the extra level of luxury it provides. You started by arguing that German cars are higher on a luxury scale (or maybe it's just Audi you argue about), then you say that a 3-series is great value, and then you say that Japanese cars are great value... What exactly is your point? Here's my point:

German (Audi, BMW, Merc): luxury. Acura: value luxury. You don't get as many niche features as with the Germans, but you pay a bit less.

And to address your point about being willing to pay more, let's say I can buy a 50K german car, but I cross-shopped it with a 40K Acura. I will not go and make the stupid statement that every Acura buyer should have been able to afford the 50K German car but chose not to. Everyone has a limit, and that limit is NOT necessarily at going broke. It's usually at a comfort level with getting the best bag for the buck for the features you find important. At one time I thought the TSX was at that level for me. The next time around I found the A4 at that level and the TSX below, despite the fact that the TSX is move value and more car for the money. I could afford the luxury of an A4 while not being comfortable with paying more for the S4 for example.

jnc2000

I thought this was a Honda Future Models discussion... How did it get to a German vs Japanese lux discussion... value vs how much someone can buy????

Belzebutt

What does that mean, "trying to buy its way".

They cars that are comparable in every way to Mercedes and BMW, and some that are higher in the luxury chain. They don't sell as well for various reasons but luxury level is not one of them. I agree that the R8 is not as high up the chain as Ferrari, but it still puts Audi arguably higher than BMW. Mercedes has very expensive AMG models they can sell you so they're fine.

Let's use your logic and apply it to the SUV market. The RX sells more than every other SUV combined. Does that mean it's higher on the luxury scale than the X3/X5, Q5, GLK etc.? Is it a more desirable and luxurious vehicle? I don't think a single person here would argue that. So it's clear that sales should be taken completely out of the equation when considering the luxury status of a brand.

Belzebutt

We're arguing about whether the future direction of Acura/Honda is value or luxury, and we got stuck on trying to define what these two things are.

smarty666

The problem is, you pick and chose what factors you consider to be luxury, and the factors Audi lacks you conveniently leave out to justify your point and that's not the way it works. Maybe in your own little world but not here.

You can spin Audi all you want, they are not on the same level as BMW, MB, and Lexus in the US. They are improving but they are not their yet and its because of a variety of factors. We have had this conversation before on AZ but brand image has a lot to do with luxury status/prestige.

Go out to any major city and ask a random crowd of say 100-200 people to name a luxury make and I guarantee the was majority will tell you either BMW, Lexus, or MB. Because even people who aren't into cars or the car market know those 3 big names mean luxury. That has everything to do with reputation, name, and image. A lot of people who aren't in to cars don't even know Audi, Infiniti, or Acura is a luxury brand b/c their image is not on the level of the other 3. Just accept it and move on. But we live in an inpatient society were people want instant gratification and get their way and it doesn't work that way.

dom

LoL, sometimes I really enjoy a good internet argument. Other times I just can't be bothered because you know its an endless cycle and exercise in futility. This is one of those times.

Majofo

Successful troll is successful

pttl

Bottom line is, we are dealing with shades of gray. It all boils down to peoples preferences and sensibilities at whatever stage in life they are. Peoples sensibilities change over time for numerous reasons...income, age, life circumstance...etc.

We all have preferences at this time, and trying to convince someone else that they are right or wrong is like a dog chasing it's tail. We all offer our opinions and that is the best we can do. It has been interesting reading the arguments no matter how much assumption is going on by saturno.

Costco

I just can't help put in my 2 cents though




I think luxury is somewhat subjective. You could argue that sales of higher tier models does affect a manufacturer's perception of luxury in the public's eyes. A lot of people used Acura's inability to sell any of their cars well in the $50k+ range as a focal point on how they're really only an entry-level luxury brand, no more, no less. Not saying that's necessarily how I feel, but that's what many people have said. The NSX was an entirely different story, it was more of a well-appointed sports car that was a part of a luxury brand than a luxury car.

I think the R8 is a very similar example to the NSX and Acura. At one point in time, at least in our minds Acura was somewhat competitive with BMW and Mercedes, maybe 5-10 years ago? The NSX was at one point competitive with Ferraris too. The difference is that Audi is actually making $60k+ luxury cars, while my opinion (and I think many others here) is that Acura kind of just took it slow and conservative.

Not my opinion, but from looking at an outside point of view, I think the general public thinks the top 3 mainstream (which excludes Bentley, RR, etc.) luxury brands is still BMW, MB and Lexus. Audi, Infiniti and Acura are somewhat behind them, then Buick, Caddy, Volvo, Saab, etc. and Hyundai is making steps towards catching up.

pttl

^
I'd put Caddy in with Infinity and Acura. But Caddy is making greater strides of late. Granted they have more room to grow.

Yumcha

Well, you gotta appreciate the effort put into typing those up...

Majofo

2nd Gen CTS-V

Belzebutt

What factors?

We already know that sales numbers isn't one of them. What else?

Costco

Who sales sales numbers don't count? Some company could come out of nowhere and make a $90,000 car with all the features that Audi, BMW, and Lexus incorporates in the 7/S/A8 line but if it doesn't sell then nobody is going to consider that brand a luxury brand. Similar thing is happened with the Genesis.... nobody and I mean nobody considers Hyundai as a brand "luxury", at least not yet. If anything, they're definitely not in the upper echelon of "luxury brands"

We're talking about makes here, not individual models. Speaking of which, this is going way off topic.

Belzebutt

I think we need to separate "awareness" from "luxury". When you ask the average person on the street (who is only likely to know a few car brands) what their top picks are, it's obvious they are most likely to pick what they know. What do they know? What they see and what people they know buy, the top sellers. Lexus is well-known for the RX. BMW has the 3-series, everybody has a friend who's got one. Mercedes does very well in the bigger car department and I see tons of C-class around here (and they look great and no doubt contribute to the awareness). Audi just doesn't have a top seller in North America, and thus in North America their brand awareness suffers. I have the only Audi on my street but there's at least 5 bimmers. If you ask all the soccer moms on that street what brand they think of when they think "luxury car", are they more likely to pick the BMW or the Audi?

And yet the Audi costs the same, has the same features, same plethora of customization options etc. They can charge the same amount of money as BMW and Mercedes for a comparable car and can make you wait 6 months for it.

Acura can't charge the same money for a comparable car, and you won't wait 6 months for it. Just ask Colin.

smarty666

Thats the problem, sales IS a factor, Audi's sales total as a brand and in the $50k plus market are no where near BMW, MB, or Lexus just like Acura is which is one of the factors why they are not on their level yet.

Belzebutt

So by extension you think the Lexus RX is by far the most luxurious SUV?

Moog-Type-S

Call me when this thread gets back on topic.

Costco

I can agree with separating awareness from luxury, but I think it unfortunately goes hand-in-hand with sales. Audi ads recently are pretty provocative and I think they're working their way up there. I personally would cross shop and in some cases choose an Audi over a similar BMW (though this is just from what I see on paper and through my eyes, not from behind the steering wheel)

I think the whole being able to charge you a comparable amount and making you wait is due to the German makes similar MO. You can build the cars a la carte, and whether this helps or hurts Audi's sales, I don't know. In the same way that awareness and luxury are somewhat different but in other ways similar, I think a big reason why people are willing to wait is because of the great styling and appeal that recent Audis have. I would easily wait 6 months to get a Mustang 5.0 the way I wanted and it would be close to $40k MSRP. Still, not luxury, despite its available list of options and price, which is relatively high IMO.

Again, quite subjective if you ask me.

Belzebutt

OK but VW can't make you wait 6 months for a car and you don't have the same customization options. Their buyers aren't that picky. Value brands tend to do cookie-cutter models and stock them well. Acura does this.

It's pretty easy to see why the Mustang is not a luxury car. It has a huge engine for not a lot of money. Audis have small 4-cyl engines for the same price as competitors' 6 cyl. What else makes up for that apparent deficit in the soccer mom's eyes if it's not added luxury? They have to give you something intangible for that money and since it's not features, it's exclusivity, styling, customization and material quality (I won't say reliability), and those things add up to luxury.

smarty666

You just don't get it, I said sales was a factor, one factor out of many. The RX is very luxurious SUV but I would not go as far as to say its the most luxurious. I personally like the Q5 and FX better than the RX but that doesn't mean the RX is not on the level of the Audi, MB, and BMW luxury SUV b/c it is.

The problem is you have a double standard when it comes to Acura and Audi which of course you're never going to admit but everyone see it. Some of the same things keeping Acura from being on the same level of BMW, MB, and Lexus are the same things keeping Audi still.