phile

3.7 is too large for a sports car, it wouldn't be in line with Acura's smart technology. Less is more. Much much less.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I would wait till 2012 and see what new engines/trannies they have.

vybzkartel

Thought I was the only one to notice, lol!


OT: Honestly though, I don't mind not having a V8 in the line-up. But, I do mind that long front overhang, because of the FF architecture. Most would agree with me that a FR architecture look more balanced and soooooo much more appealing!

The FF vs. FR is the only beef I have with Acura.

LuvMyTSX

What does it mean? That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Acura themselves are saying they don't want to be tier 1, which essentially means they don't really want to be a luxury brand, they want to be something in between. That is how I'm taking it. Yes, the brand has more prestige than mainstream brands, but it's not at the level of BMW, etc. That is what I mean.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people who still shop with value and features in mind (I'm one of them), but in general, Acura is not regarded as being on the same level as the Germans and Lexus.

Basically, they aren't going to be taken seriously as a luxury brand because they aren't even going to try to compete with the rest of the companies in the segment. I'm not sure where that leaves them.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

It leaves them exactly where they are now.

phile

smart luxury, that's where

the marketing people got this one in the bag. boy they really fooled us.

saturno_v

I agree...if we are talking about reputation Audi is simply not on par with BMW or MB (again we are not talking about the merits of the specific cars) not enough history and heritage...the same for any other Japanese luxury brands....

LuvMyTSX

What you are saying is basically that because Acura doesn't make high end luxury vehicles it cannot be considered at the same level of Audi for example.....under that narrow interpretation I may agree....however.....realistically how many people do not buy a TL and instead buy an A4 or a 3 series ONLY because Acura does not have a upper luxury segment offering ?? Not many I suspect (and I hope...I still have faith the average intelligence of ordinary people )

I do not remember where it was but I did read that Acura has one of the highest loyalty in the premium car brand market

The FF architecture is a non-issue IMHO...with the SH-AWD they got the balance basically where Audi models are......and Audi have quite the overhang too.....

SSFTSX

Acura is not Value luxury but Smart Luxury. You can find Value in Hyundai/Lexus but not in Acura. Acura will never give you latest technology but standardized products with limited customization with better implementation of existing technology.
Most of Acura models are domesticated unlike Imports of Hyundia/Lexus.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Maybe this is why Acura is also failing.

smarty666

TSX - Japan
RL - Japan
MDX- Canada
ZDX - Canada
RDX- US
TL US

Most Acura models are not domesticated. Most are imported. Wrong again as usual, massive epic fail for you again!

SSFTSX

Country of Origin of MDX/ZDX/TL which are majority of sales is not Japan.
Unlike LS/GS/LX/GS/IS. All RWD separate platforms are Japanese.

smarty666

IT DOESN'T MATTER! Canada is not the US. Check a map for God sake. If it comes from Canada, its still imported. 4 of their 6 product are imported, that more than 50%. Do some simple math. So saying that most (or the majority) of Acura models are domesticated is a complete lie. It doesn't matter where they come from, Canada's flag doesn't have stars and stripes the last time I checked which makes it ANOTHER COUNTRY. Just accept your a massive epic fail already and be done with it!

SSFTSX

Cars built in Mexico/Canada dont count.

smarty666

Oh your hypocrisy is staggering!

Moog-Type-S

I usually avoid this thread because it's chock full of Honda/Acura suckage and let-down.

Seriously now.....Honda be smart, Kill the Acura brand. It's clearly not a luxury brand. You clearly do not want it to be one or become one. You don't want to compete with the big boys. Kill Acura and let it out of its misery.

Next step: Follow Hyundai.

Produce your a-typical Honda vehicles, and then under the same Honda badge produce a higher quality-higher feature group of vehicles (just like Hyundai is doing). The Acura brand does not carry any prestige. There is no need for it.

....but at the same time I don't think you (Honda) will be able to follow Hyundai.
Hyundai is set on providing innovative engines and transmissions that are on par with other makes and fun to drive (see direct injection, turbo, V8, +6-7 speed gearboxes, RWD), you (Honda) are stuck somewhere +10 years ago.

...and let's not even begin to talk about who or what is designing your vehicles.
Honestly, it's hard to find a car maker that has more abortions in its lineup than the current Honda/Acura line-up.

Honda, go back to your roots, or go away. Everyone is eating your lunch.

Hapa DC5

Honda won't kill Acura. As ugly as they are they still sell. They are a baby step up from Hondas and even without a direction people are buying them.

Be it the reliability, build quality, safety, interior design, cost of maintenance, and resale value which Acura thankfully still does well they are finding homes in people's garages.

phile

and that's the problem. But i've posted my opinion about that already on these boards, so I'll spare us all. it's not the sales #'s that's the problem for Acura, they're doing well for what they are. No one's arguing that (well except maybe for the RL and RDX).

Legend2TL

Always great to see the equal support for negative and positive comments

saturno_v

Really??

Let's see...YTD sales for October put Acura solidly ahead of Audi and Infiniti and behind MB, BMW and Lexus...I could not find the standalone Cadillac figures but I suspect they sell less than Acura.... ohh and by the way...the Audi A8 sells less than half of the "slow selling" Acura RL (YTD October 2010)

The TL sells as much as the A4 (YTD October 2010) and much more than the A6....

What about checking your facts on the net (you know there is a little useful web site called "Google") before spouting nonsense??

Legend2TL

Fixed

Legend2TL

In all seriousness, the new Honda CEO is just telling it like it is. No tier-1, V8, or RWD, They're sticking to what's working for them now, in this economy and with was little certainty is out there it's no worth the gamble. They sell to their fairly loyal customer base with reasonable repeats.

My guess on all this is the business lesson Honda learned from the 1990's and 2000's. In the 90's they had some exclusive platforms that were mostly developed for the US market NSX, Legend and Vigor that cost more to build due to little overlap in operations and manufacturing.

They also were way behind on the lucrative SUV market and had no mini-vans which was being heavily requested by US dealers. The Honda board was not pleased and demanded platform sharing and a SUV/minivan solution. That led to the 2000's and alot of success on both Honda and Acura markets in the US.

They decided to get bold and embark on a new RWD sedan development and NSX replacement. 2008 hit and reality set in, perhaps sticking to what works for Honda is what's best for now.

Things may change in the future but seeing how their profit was very good in the last quarter, my hunch is their senior management know a heck of lot about running a car company more than any of us in these forums.

dom

Lets get this back to discussing what Honda/Acura should be doing, or what exactly you think they might do. This isn't about what they are and why.

SSFTSX

highly doubt that Acura is failing. Acura is the top reliable brand in mass market luxury. (could have #1 once rear brake pads of TSX resolved). it has the highest ALG values.
It has the smallest line up and oldest technology.
Era of Acura is just begining. I can forsee in next 12 to 24 months. new engines/transmission would have very big impact on sales numbers. Acura is already bigger than Lexus/Infiniti in Canada. and in China it is just the beginning with very large size showrooms

Honda vehicles are priced like Lexus and has much smaller share in small car market. so sale plunge is understandable but what about the bargain basement brands?. thats why Smart luxury is key word.

saturno_v

Whatever they do seems to work reasonably well...they are in the middle of the pack as premium brand (they sell more than Audi, Infiniti and Cadillac, behind BMW, Lexus and MB) and profitability has been excellent lately.

In this kind of economy and for not having the cost of brand specific platforms and engines (no RWD or V-8, whatever they use is shared with Honda, except for the SH-AWD system), it is not too shabby if you ask me......

I'm pretty sure they will move upscale when they see fit...and they definitely have the capability to do so very effectively....

+1

saturno_v

...about what they shoud do...within the "not spending too much resource for development at the moment" framework I woudl suggest (IMHO) these relatively low cost options

1) An SH-AWD version of the TSX and a 4 cylinder turbo trim (the RDX engine)

2) A coupe' version of the TL (they do already for the Accord) with a potential convertible too.

3) A nice roadster (just update the S2000 maybe with more powerful engines, and/or turbo, etc..)

4) If they can further stretch the dimensions of the Accord platform, a new RL with a turbocharged version of the 3.7 V6 as top trim.

5) This would cost them a bit but I think is worth it for the image...a new NSX.....

P.S.

Even the TSX sells already almost as much as the supposedly more "trendy and cute" Audi A4 (October 2010 YTD)

Legend2TL

Thanks for posting, at least the new Honda CEO is more realistic than the previous

pttl

So in other words Honda is willing to stay with boring ugly designs with no new innovation, but will happily keep recycling the same old crap because the sheep keep buying them. Got it thanks.

pttl

I had suspicions that we were sprouting a new one.

It's really discouraging when, now 2, can see that the big H can do nothing wrong. That everything the big H does is correct and perfect. It's fascinating in a bizarre, pathetic, can't help themselves, sort of way.

SSFTSX

Future is not turbo charged but application of CRZ concept.
6MT TSX is faster than 5speed auto TSX by 1.5 second on 0-60 timing on avg.
6MT TSX V6 will be faster than 5speed Auto V6 TSX by 1.5 second. so your already at 4.5 second 0-60mph timing on all season tire setup.
Put IMA torque/hp boost to 3.7L, SH-AWD and you get car that can do 0-60mph under 4 seconds.
It is entirely possible to produce 350bhp 3.7L IMA Vtec with over 350Ft-lbs of torque.


If you look at data of Honda Accord hybrid. It was accelerated from 0-60mph in 6.7 second from only 240 bhp with 5speed auto. 0-60mph with 6MT will be some where around 5.2 to 5.3 second with engine.
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...836588f019.pdf

Mowgli

hahahahahahaa

pttl

Seriously?

The 2011 Mustang GT, which weighs 3600 pounds and has 412 horse power and 390lb/ft of torque, runs 0-60 in any where between 4.4 and 4.8 seconds.
Are you seriously suggesting that a 6MT V6 TSX will be close to matching the 2011 Mustang GT?!?!
Do you wonder why people constantly laugh at you? How can anyone take anything you say seriously? You show yourself to be a joke with statements like that.
Stop drinking the Honda Kool Aid.

Belzebutt

I don't know how you can say that after taking a stroll to your local Audi dealer and checking out the R8 and the new A8. It's BMW's status that seems questionable when you compare those two cars to what they offer. They have nothing that approaches the R8, and they have nothing that even comes close to the A8 interior.

Sure BMW has more sales but so does Toyota.

Belzebutt

Honestly I don't think the lack of V8 is of any consequence to buyers who are not looking for a V8 car. Here I agree with Acura, they don't have to have that in order to be at the same level as the other car makers. They could be forgiven for not having a V8 by proving the same vehicle dynamics and luxury as the Germans. But they don't, because they have their cost-saving good old safe FWD architecture and they stick with it, instead using tricks and over-the-top styling to try to make up for it. I wasn't looking for a V8 with my last car but I was looking for something a little more than mass-market FWD, so I didn't bother with Acura.

fsttyms1

Its true. Just look at how aerodynamic the blinkers are on the TSX. They also use light weight air in the tires.

pttl

I forgot about that...and the superior side mirrors and wide tires and ground clearance.....

SSFTSX

TL-SH-AWD 6MT that is 3850lbs car with much more width than TSX has done it in 5.2 sec.
5speed Auto TSX V6 weights 3680lbs.
Add lighter wheel and sumemr performance tire with 6MT setup. your looking at car around 3600lbs with SH-AWD. under 5 second is pretty much assured without if and buts from 305bhp. It is low end torque that Honda engine is lacking. once IMA is added to it. 0-60 under 4 second. pretty much at par with Audi R8. Remember Honda horspowers & transmissions are different.

majin ssj eric

I think you are legitimately insane.

saturno_v

Nonsense....the TL SH-AWD was faster than the 335i on a track test and it runs neck-a-neck with the S4....

The SH-AWD weight distribution is basically on par with the Quattro models.....so, again, nonsense...

saturno_v

The supposedly "superior" Audi interiors are one of the biggest mass delusion in the atomotive world....

yohan81718

4.5 seconds.......