Honda: Development and Technology News
11-09-2010, 01:11 PM
#1481
Senior Moderator
There's one other factor that could be limiting the number of gears, space. I do not know of any 7 or 8 speed AT in a transverse application. With a longitudinal mounting, it's fairly straightforward to extend the gearbox slightly to accommodate the extra gears.
With the much tighter transverse engine/transaxle engine packaging it's probably more difficult to squeeze another gear or two in there and still get it to fir into the width of the engine bay.
Many manufacturers use 3rd party suppliers for the longitudinal gearbox's both MT and AT. However I believe the majority of auto manufacturers design and manufacture their own transverse gearbox's.
With the much tighter transverse engine/transaxle engine packaging it's probably more difficult to squeeze another gear or two in there and still get it to fir into the width of the engine bay.
Many manufacturers use 3rd party suppliers for the longitudinal gearbox's both MT and AT. However I believe the majority of auto manufacturers design and manufacture their own transverse gearbox's.
11-09-2010, 01:11 PM
#1482
My first Avatar....
He still SPECULATES that the 6MT TSX will be faster to 60 than an American muscle car.
He can't get it.
Last edited by pttl; 11-09-2010 at 01:15 PM.
11-09-2010, 01:15 PM
#1483
My first Avatar....
Your speculation is a nice fantasy. But real cars don't actually behave the way you speculate.
11-09-2010, 01:17 PM
#1484
My first Avatar....
look at this. http://www.vtec.net./news/news-item?news_item_id=935913
11-09-2010, 01:28 PM
#1486
My first Avatar....
11-09-2010, 01:47 PM
#1487
Two things: first, reliability has nothing to do with luxury, just ask any Ferrari owner - or heck, any British car owner. Second, Audis aren't that bad in reliability, they're just below average along with all the European luxury. The latest JDS surveys have them at or below BMW level. Not that this has any reflexion on luxury status. Remember when Mercedes had their really bad reliability years a few years back? They didn't turn in their luxury badge because of that, they were simply an unreliable luxury car.
There are still many people thet keep themselves away from Audi because of the well known Audi 100 (5000) series
horror stories....
You can have luxury and top notch reliability...jut ask any Lexus owner...
long term reliability is not as factor in luxury cars, it is true, turnover is quick, many are leased....after that is secondary market problem, outside of anybody radar...but well to do people do get pissed a lot if they have problems with their new cars....Mercedes was seriously worried few years ago about potential consequences on their brand image.
Ferrari (and other cars like it) is a different animal...it is not an everyday car for almost all of its customers...it is a sunday stroll toy (or a track toy) and less reliability may be tolerated.
However I never saw a realiability statistic for Ferrari (or Lamborghini for that matter)
11-09-2010, 02:01 PM
#1488
Senior Moderator
Unreliability is one of the biggest factor that killed Jaguar....
There are still many people thet keep themselves away from Audi because of the well known Audi 100 (5000) series
horror stories....
You can have luxury and top notch reliability...jut ask any Lexus owner...
long term reliability is not as factor in luxury cars, it is true, turnover is quick, many are leased....after that is secondary market problem, outside of anybody radar...but well to do people do get pissed a lot if they have problems with their new cars....Mercedes was seriously worried few years ago about potential consequences on their brand image.
Ferrari (and other cars like it) is a different animal...it is not an everyday car for almost all of its customers...it is a sunday stroll toy (or a track toy) and less reliability may be tolerated.
However I never saw a realiability statistic for Ferrari (or Lamborghini for that matter)
There are still many people thet keep themselves away from Audi because of the well known Audi 100 (5000) series
horror stories....
You can have luxury and top notch reliability...jut ask any Lexus owner...
long term reliability is not as factor in luxury cars, it is true, turnover is quick, many are leased....after that is secondary market problem, outside of anybody radar...but well to do people do get pissed a lot if they have problems with their new cars....Mercedes was seriously worried few years ago about potential consequences on their brand image.
Ferrari (and other cars like it) is a different animal...it is not an everyday car for almost all of its customers...it is a sunday stroll toy (or a track toy) and less reliability may be tolerated.
However I never saw a realiability statistic for Ferrari (or Lamborghini for that matter)
If I had spent a ton on a regular driver, I expect some semblance of reliability. I don't care how luxurious or leading edge it is. If my mechanic knows me on a first-name basis, I would be pissed...period.
If I have a track car, different mentality. As well, I know certain ones require alot of upkeep. Different.
11-09-2010, 02:03 PM
#1489
that car is on 20inch 275 width tires. with only 328 ft-lb of torque.
Any torque figure above 350 ft-lb can deliver the lunch performance. that is way more than current 273 ft-lb.
so you have 15% less weight with less frontal area, more torque to the lighter tire/wheels.
just from weight perspective your already at 4.1 second.
11-09-2010, 02:11 PM
#1490
My first Avatar....
Welcome to Fantasy Island.
11-09-2010, 02:19 PM
#1491
Senior Moderator
We need to differentiate here: daily/regular driving versus a Sunday type car.
If I had spent a ton on a regular driver, I expect some semblance of reliability. I don't care how luxurious or leading edge it is. If my mechanic knows me on a first-name basis, I would be pissed...period.
If I have a track car, different mentality. As well, I know certain ones require a lot of upkeep. Different.
If I had spent a ton on a regular driver, I expect some semblance of reliability. I don't care how luxurious or leading edge it is. If my mechanic knows me on a first-name basis, I would be pissed...period.
If I have a track car, different mentality. As well, I know certain ones require a lot of upkeep. Different.
His MB example was perfect. For years MB was making unreliable cars. And maybe people wouldn't/won't by a MB because of that unreliability. But those same people probably wouldn't tell you that MB was not a luxury car.
IMO, the 2 things are unrelated. Luxury cars were never known for their reliability, nor it is a requirement for most willing to spend that kind of money.
11-09-2010, 02:21 PM
#1492
Senior Moderator
Agreed. But the point that Bezelbutt was trying to make is that, just because a car is unreliable, that doesn't disqualify it from being a luxury car. Does it hurt the brand? of course.
His MB example was perfect. For years MB was making unreliable cars. And maybe people wouldn't/won't by a MB because of that unreliability. But those same people probably wouldn't tell you that MB was not a luxury car.
IMO, the 2 things are unrelated. Luxury cars were never known for their reliability, nor it is a requirement for most willing to spend that kind of money.
His MB example was perfect. For years MB was making unreliable cars. And maybe people wouldn't/won't by a MB because of that unreliability. But those same people probably wouldn't tell you that MB was not a luxury car.
IMO, the 2 things are unrelated. Luxury cars were never known for their reliability, nor it is a requirement for most willing to spend that kind of money.
).
11-09-2010, 02:26 PM
#1493
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The thing with reliability and luxury is that a majority of people that buy a luxury car aren't concerned with reliability because, well they can afford to fix it. The problem is that the people that can't afford to fix them, buy them, and then complain about reliability. Not to say that luxury car companies aren't concerned with reliability, it's just not their top selling point. Without reliability, Toyota, Honda, et al wouldn't have a top selling point. 
11-09-2010, 02:34 PM
#1494
Senior Moderator
The thing with reliability and luxury is that a majority of people that buy a luxury car aren't concerned with reliability because, well they can afford to fix it. The problem is that the people that can't afford to fix them, buy them, and then complain about reliability. Not to say that luxury car companies aren't concerned with reliability, it's just not their top selling point. Without reliability, Toyota, Honda, et al wouldn't have a top selling point.
I know the rules for getting into the higher-end car bracket: Gotta pay if I want to play. Still, that being said, I'm not going to throw my hard-earned $$$$ at a pile of
regardless of how "luxurious" it is. If there is a better alternate, I'll get it. If not, I won't. I can name many very high-income individuals I know who do not mind the odd servicing or repair but will not tolerate a "glass" car. Rich people don't burn money...
11-09-2010, 02:37 PM
#1495
I'm the Firestarter
The A4 8 sp is rated 1 mpg higher in both city and highway than the 6 sp and it supposedly slightly faster 0-60 so it seems like it makes a difference. Mine has 6 sp and I wish I had at least another gear for highway cruising, two would be nice for going over the speed limit.
11-09-2010, 02:38 PM
#1496
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Somewhat disagree, Anil.
I know the rules for getting into the higher-end car bracket: Gotta pay if I want to play. Still, that being said, I'm not going to throw my hard-earned $$$$ at a pile of regardless of how "luxurious" it is. If there is a better alternate, I'll get it. If not, I won't.
I can name many very high-income individuals I know who do not mind the odd servicing or repair but will not tolerate a "glass" car. Rich people don't burn money...
I know the rules for getting into the higher-end car bracket: Gotta pay if I want to play. Still, that being said, I'm not going to throw my hard-earned $$$$ at a pile of
regardless of how "luxurious" it is. If there is a better alternate, I'll get it. If not, I won't. I can name many very high-income individuals I know who do not mind the odd servicing or repair but will not tolerate a "glass" car. Rich people don't burn money...
i'm not saying people don't want a reliable luxury car, just saying that it's not the top most concern for many of the luxury brands.
I was just as concerned about reliability when we picked up the Audi as I would have been even if it were an Acura.
11-09-2010, 02:43 PM
#1497
I'm the Firestarter
I think reliability is a nice to have in the luxury segment. The number one reason people buy these cars because they're desirable, not because they absolutely must rely on them to get them from point A to point B. Reliability is a good quality too but not #1 in the luxury segment. In the mass-market segment reliability is more important. Sure a wealthy person won't like to put up with their luxury car breaking down, but they likely have other options while the car is in the shop, like a 2nd car or a loaner. The mass-market car is more likely to be used as a reliable appliance.
11-09-2010, 03:33 PM
#1498
Agreed. But the point that Bezelbutt was trying to make is that, just because a car is unreliable, that doesn't disqualify it from being a luxury car. Does it hurt the brand? of course.
His MB example was perfect. For years MB was making unreliable cars. And maybe people wouldn't/won't by a MB because of that unreliability. But those same people probably wouldn't tell you that MB was not a luxury car.
IMO, the 2 things are unrelated. Luxury cars were never known for their reliability, nor it is a requirement for most willing to spend that kind of money.
His MB example was perfect. For years MB was making unreliable cars. And maybe people wouldn't/won't by a MB because of that unreliability. But those same people probably wouldn't tell you that MB was not a luxury car.
IMO, the 2 things are unrelated. Luxury cars were never known for their reliability, nor it is a requirement for most willing to spend that kind of money.
Nobody says that unreliability disqualify a brand from being luxurious....but it hurt them a lot (just ask Jaguar)...as much as a mass market brand if not even more...wealthy individuals are not concerned about cost or lack of option if something happen to their car....they usually hate inconvenience....they have less patience to put up with it, on average, than the regular Joe....
Detroit made a business model to build unreliable crap to sell to average Americans (huge upfront discount, 4-5 years turnover) until the recent recessions (2001 and 2008) put a final nail in the coffin....very little wealthy individials would vhave put up with Detroit chronic low quality.
If unreliability becomes chronic (ask Jaguar again) resale values plummet and the hit on the residual value start to become noticeable even for the well to do (these cars need to be sold down the chain eventually)
Anyway we are not talking about luxury cars here.... the A4 and the 3 Series are not luxury vehicles...they are perfectly on par with competing Acura models, no matter what the top end of the 2 German brands are.....if an A4 driver think in his head that he's driving a more luxurious vehicle than my TL he is delusional.....
11-09-2010, 04:01 PM
#1499
8 speed may make a little bit of sense in very big displacement engines (after all Lexus did introduce it in the LS) it doesn't and it is frankly ridiculous on a smaller powerplant...Lexus still offer 6 speed automatic on their V6 engines..why do you think is that??....the little A4 4 cylinder blender engine with an 8 speed is plain ridiculous if not pathetic...weight and waste...another example of German sometime snonsensical "innovation"..some MB models have 2 reverse gear....plainly ridiculous...additional weight and cost for what??
Smart technology and innovation is the vectoring AWD system (with Audi precipitously copying the concept), the lane departure adaptive cruise control (Nissan), the variable timing (Honda), dual scroll turbochargers (IHI), cabin microfilter (Lexus), navigation system (Honda) etc....
Japanese tend to excel at "smart" innovation in the automotive world....most of us Japanese car admirers are attracted to their elegant solutions, hate for waste and unnecessary complication, the Zen-like approach to innovation, cost effective technology...we profoundly dislike the German pissing context "panzer" attitude....
I give you an example.....if the Japanese decided to make a Bugatti Veyron type of car they would have not have designed a horrendously complicated W16 engine with 4 turbochargers...they would probably have developed an automotive gas turbine (pioneered by Chrysler in the 50's and 60's) weighting a fraction, conceptually simpler and with with tremendous power.......
The Germans gave up on the Wankel engine because the shortcoming were considered "unworkable" (reliability and oil consumption) and basically sold the rights to Mazda for a song......and look what happened next....
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-09-2010 at 04:09 PM.
11-09-2010, 04:06 PM
#1500
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.... the A4 and the 3 Series are not luxury vehicles...they are perfectly on par with competing Acura models, no matter what the top end of the 2 German brands are.....if an A4 driver think in his head that he's driving a more luxurious vehicle than my TL he is delusional.....
The A4 and 3 series are more luxurious than any TL that has ever been produced and if you think otherwise, it's because 1) you're trying to justify your purchase or 2) you are as blind as SSFTSX.
The quality of materials in the Audi and Bimmer are what make it more luxurious, not just the list of features.
11-09-2010, 04:08 PM
#1501
Senior Moderator
Wellllll...I'd be one to say I think the A4 and 3-Series have as much amenities. And honestly, in SOME ways, I think the Acura comes across as feeling more luxurious for sure than the BMW.
11-09-2010, 04:11 PM
#1502
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I find the BMW and Audi interior while nice in quality, very boring.
11-09-2010, 04:14 PM
#1503
Senior Moderator
In that particular market segment, I am absolutely indifferent to the quality of the luxury to any of them: CTS, TL, 3-Series, C-Class, A4, S60, G37...
They are all pretty much comparable.
I quite agree with saturno_v.
They are all pretty much comparable.
I quite agree with saturno_v.
11-09-2010, 04:19 PM
#1504
Penis envy?
The A4 and 3 series are more luxurious than any TL that has ever been produced and if you think otherwise, it's because 1) you're trying to justify your purchase or 2) you are as blind as SSFTSX.
The quality of materials in the Audi and Bimmer are what make it more luxurious, not just the list of features.
The A4 and 3 series are more luxurious than any TL that has ever been produced and if you think otherwise, it's because 1) you're trying to justify your purchase or 2) you are as blind as SSFTSX.
The quality of materials in the Audi and Bimmer are what make it more luxurious, not just the list of features.
It is beyond me how someone can be more blind....I mention only fake leather (Leatherette in BMW speak) I should not need to add anything else....the seats padding are a joke, no contouring....
In my purchase I did look at every competitor (and even higher), 3 Series, A4, A6, IS, G......my purchase was not influenced at all by price...
When I sit on a 3 series a fully loaded Accord seems more luxurious and modern..is that simple.....
Any person (including owners of A4 and 3 series) looking at my TL dash tell me how luxurious it feels....even if they do not like the car overall
Quality of material?? please you cannot be serious....the TL has more soft plastic than any of the other two Germans...yes they give you few alluminum trims (that blinds lots of people evidently) but you need to look at the overall picture....the A4 trunk panel is basically cardboard...like my 2003 Maxima.....
The only car that smokes the TL in terms of overall finishing is the Lexus IS...Lexus is on another planet when it comes to build quality....
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-09-2010 at 04:26 PM.
11-09-2010, 04:30 PM
#1507
The sizzle in the Steak
Audi still looks best.
11-09-2010, 04:31 PM
#1508
Senior Moderator
For me, the interior of the Acura is tied with Audi. BMW a distant 5th place.
11-09-2010, 04:36 PM
#1509
The sizzle in the Steak
BMW is an acquired taste. Materials are high quality, but the design has always been minimalist.
11-09-2010, 04:37 PM
#1510
Senior Moderator
11-09-2010, 04:37 PM
#1511
Senior Moderator
Gotta love their cup holders that are fragile as glass and explode into a bazillion pieces.
11-09-2010, 04:38 PM
#1512
The sizzle in the Steak
11-09-2010, 04:39 PM
#1513
The sizzle in the Steak
11-09-2010, 04:41 PM
#1515
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ Oh noes the stolen design argument!!!! 
11-09-2010, 04:41 PM
#1516
11-09-2010, 04:42 PM
#1517
Senior Moderator
Sure, and Chevy Aveo's interior is very minimalist too.
I know what you're saying about the minimalist style.
Still, don't find the interior that great for the BMW. And honestly, if I were to get the 3er, it would not be for the interior (I would be on glue if it were).
I know what you're saying about the minimalist style.
Still, don't find the interior that great for the BMW. And honestly, if I were to get the 3er, it would not be for the interior (I would be on glue if it were).
11-09-2010, 04:44 PM
#1518
Senior Moderator
Audi interior wins for me.
11-09-2010, 04:45 PM
#1519
The sizzle in the Steak
@ chevy aveo
11-09-2010, 04:46 PM
#1520