Honda: Development and Technology News
11-11-2010, 05:16 PM
#1681
That's it. He +1'd SSFTSX's post. That's how I know I should ignore someone.
have fun ranting to whoever will listen. oh, and it's Korean, not Corean 
I believe that's a brand of countertop surfacing.
have fun ranting to whoever will listen. oh, and it's Korean, not Corean I believe that's a brand of countertop surfacing.
11-11-2010, 05:41 PM
#1682
I'm the Firestarter
Yes, Lexus is now behind in the tranny dept. since they don't offer an 8 sp across most of their range when others do. Yes, they were the first. They were ahead before, they're not anymore. What's next, you're going to be shocked that Honda's not ahead anymore despite the fact that they were first with variable valve timing?
Yeah, so who's to say what's higher than your budget? YOU get to decide that everyone should be ready to pay 10% more but not 30% more? Sorry, I pick a maximum I want to pay and I stick with it. I'm find going all the way to the top of that but not higher. I could have gone with an Acura and paid a lot less. It's called being disciplined.
I'm glad you like your SH-AWD but you realize it's only required for a front-heavy oversteering car like an Acura. A BMW doesn't need that in order to have as good or better handling than the TL, and if you're willing to pay for an equivalent system on a BMW and Audi, you'll get something even better. That's the usual story with the Germans, you pay more to get all the same bells and whistles as Acura, but each bell and whistle is often somewhat better than the equivalent feature on Acura.
No I mean among TL buyers, why doesn't everyone get the SH-AWD version with Nav? Because in the real world people who can afford a base TL can't all afford - or are willing to pay for - a car that casts as little as $2000 more. You're making it sound like everyone who doesn't pay 10% more for a nicer car was already stretching their budget and shouldn't be spending that much on a car in the first place. You're wrong, different people have a different idea of what a sensible car budget is.
If I was buying an Acura I would HAVE to take the SH-AWD just to make up for the inferior FWD platform, so that's not really a good example. Acura badly needs this feature and unfortunately they don't have it on all their cars and it still doesn't fix the styling defects that it imposes on their cars.
I know that you're trying to turn this into a jab, but I can honestly say I could afford the 3-series, I just wanted to be very conservative with my finances. I set a budget to start with and a good 3-series just wasn't in it. It was too luxurious for me at the time.
The next time around I could afford a little more luxury and I was able to buy an A4 instead of a TSX. I got the car that I thought looked best and felt the most upscale behind the wheel.
Who? Obviously not this guy:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=332
You know when you try to portray German car buyers as people who are suckers and just seek to buy a car they can show off, I could just as easily say you're only bitter that your TL is ugly and you really couldn't afford a nice-looking car. But I won't, because both of these are unfair characterizations.
So Lexus is not luxury now because it doesn't have a racing program. Hey at least it has the LFA. Audi has not only the R8 but also a good many years of Le Mans history and rally history with the Quattro. Much more than Lexus in any case. Acura has very little there, a couple of years of ALMS that hardly anyone knows about. So I guess your point is that out of all these companies Acura and Lexus are the ones with the last racing history and that affects their luxury status?
Not if you had already decided on a budget and you found that a well-equipped 328i is above that. But I guess you work differently, no matter what car you like, you're always ready to spend a few grand more. No wonder people are in debt... 10% here, 10% there, I'll just borrow a little more... 
OK, so we agree that sales numbers don't mean anything when it comes to defining a car as "luxurious". Now we're getting somewhere.
Sure. SOME people care, and maybe those people have heard of Le Mans and maybe they've heard that BMW supplies engines in F1. Other people sit in the car and see the Audi's nicer interior and they feel THAT is more luxury. But overall Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus all have obvious luxury attributes while Acura is missing a lot more.
Yeah and in Europe Audi outsells BMW and Lexus is invisible but you don't really care about that do you? 
What changed it is the fact that Audi came out with a new A4/A5 platform that effectively gets rid of an ugly large front overhang, replaces a 60/40 weight split with a much more sporty 54/46, and provides a full time AWD system that defaults to 40:60 front/rear. I also sat in a TSX, a 3-series and an A4 back to back and I found the A4 to be a class above the others. With the S-Line package the interior is not even comparable. However the discussion about luxury mainly applies to the brand, and when I walk into my Audi dealership and the first thing I see is a $200,000 R8 next to a gorgeous S5 and a fully-loaded A8, I get an impression of luxury that I just don't get from my Acura dealer's TL and ZDX...
second the difference was WAY higher than my budget
the SH-AWD is better and more advanced than the BMW X-Drive.
Some people do not like the TL period...for various reasons
I take a vectorial SH-AWD system over a LED light setup every time.....
Thanks for proving my point....you were already stretched too thin in your budget for the TSX price and you could not fork the little extra for a car you really liked more (and it had, IMHO, a better value proposition)
The next time around I could afford a little more luxury and I was able to buy an A4 instead of a TSX. I got the car that I thought looked best and felt the most upscale behind the wheel.
..Audi tries to piss longer offering super high end models where the 3 Japanese don't (not because they can't but because they want to stay value competitive in the lower segments where the bulk of the business is done)
and yes, sometimes Audi, with their halo models succeed in convincing a guy that his A4 is more luxurious than my TL
and yes, sometimes Audi, with their halo models succeed in convincing a guy that his A4 is more luxurious than my TL
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=332
Originally Posted by belzebutt
And for the record, I don't think for a second that my A4 is more of a luxury car than a TL, I see them as equals. As a brand however, Audi is definitely the higher luxury brand.
You do not understand that a big part of the image for a luxury brand is its historical heritage made of decades and decades of building superior cars and exclusivity.
Audi, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti simply lack that...period...
Audi, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti simply lack that...period...
The Japanese brands on average offer better value than the Germans at comparable purchasing prices....not always...in the particular case of the TSX vs. the 328, in my opinion, the Bimmer offer the better value and I would have got the 328 hands down.
Not if you had already decided on a budget and you found that a well-equipped 328i is above that. But I guess you work differently, no matter what car you like, you're always ready to spend a few grand more. No wonder people are in debt... 10% here, 10% there, I'll just borrow a little more...
Excellent point...the RX is as luxurious and as well built as any of the German competitors...
But for some people that care about image and heritage Audi is simply not there yet...
In Europe people wait one year to get their Passats the way they want it.
Hmm I would like to know what changed that perception...hmmm
11-11-2010, 06:43 PM
#1684
Race Director
However the discussion about luxury mainly applies to the brand, and when I walk into my Audi dealership and the first thing I see is a $200,000 R8 next to a gorgeous S5 and a fully-loaded A8, I get an impression of luxury that I just don't get from my Acura dealer's TL and ZDX...
All this talk of something that is totally subjective and in the eyes of the beholder is getting really old.
11-11-2010, 06:45 PM
#1685
Race Director
11-11-2010, 06:49 PM
#1686
Hence the red text 
A double entendre, I guess. Or depending on how you like at it, a triple entendre?
A double entendre, I guess. Or depending on how you like at it, a triple entendre?
11-11-2010, 06:52 PM
#1687
AZ Community Team
, a RL's interior is on par with the offerings from MB, Audi, and BMW. IMO it's only downfall is only using wood veneer on the dash only on the top model 
11-11-2010, 07:05 PM
#1688
the silver center stack cheapens the RL. Honda/Acura really needs to get off of this faux metal kick they're currently on.
but other than that, I think the RL's interior is definitely tier 1 status - materials are very nice and the design is nice. Unfortunately it's the only Acura model I can say that about.
Where it falls short of Audi and BMW, though, is that the other two are more modern looking. there is a lot more use of metal details through their cabins, and more premium materials (not to say the stuff in the RL isn't premium, it's just not as premium).
but other than that, I think the RL's interior is definitely tier 1 status - materials are very nice and the design is nice. Unfortunately it's the only Acura model I can say that about.
Where it falls short of Audi and BMW, though, is that the other two are more modern looking. there is a lot more use of metal details through their cabins, and more premium materials (not to say the stuff in the RL isn't premium, it's just not as premium).
11-11-2010, 07:14 PM
#1689
I'm the Firestarter
the silver center stack cheapens the RL. Honda/Acura really needs to get off of this faux metal kick they're currently on.
but other than that, I think the RL's interior is definitely tier 1 status - materials are very nice and the design is nice. Unfortunately it's the only Acura model I can say that about.
Where it falls short of Audi and BMW, though, is that the other two are more modern looking. there is a lot more use of metal details through their cabins, and more premium materials (not to say the stuff in the RL isn't premium, it's just not as premium).
but other than that, I think the RL's interior is definitely tier 1 status - materials are very nice and the design is nice. Unfortunately it's the only Acura model I can say that about.
Where it falls short of Audi and BMW, though, is that the other two are more modern looking. there is a lot more use of metal details through their cabins, and more premium materials (not to say the stuff in the RL isn't premium, it's just not as premium).
11-11-2010, 07:15 PM
#1690
My first Avatar....
At least it seems to be localized in Automotive News.
11-11-2010, 07:23 PM
#1691
AZ Community Team
Simple, Audi designed, developed and manufactured products into a market space where they were not before. Has been done by many other manufacturers and products.
I agree with this, a A8 from a feature/function point of view is very comparable to the 7/S/LS.
That's not my logic, that's your logic. My point is simple, to be a successful luxury car manufacturer you need the product and the sales volume. It does mean the RX has captured that market segment in that it truly understands what those customers want. The fact that the RDX continues to be #1 in that segment generation after generation means they know how to build the product and market it successfully.
The 2G RL is a classic example of building a fine product but failing to capture the market segment it's in. When the 2G came out the reviews placed it ahead of the 5/E classes, but the marketing and prestige of the BMW and MB still put their products ahead.
IMO this is what Honda feared most when trying to go after tier-1/RWD/V8/..... even if they executed a great product then would buyers come. They've learned that painful lesson with the NSX. Even the M, 6 and GS don't sell well in the mid-size luxury market. It's not for trying, in many ways the M is perhaps a better product yet still sells only a fraction of the 5/E.
They cars that are comparable in every way to Mercedes and BMW, and some that are higher in the luxury chain. They don't sell as well for various reasons but luxury level is not one of them. I agree that the R8 is not as high up the chain as Ferrari, but it still puts Audi arguably higher than BMW. Mercedes has very expensive AMG models they can sell you so they're fine.
Let's use your logic and apply it to the SUV market. The RX sells more than every other SUV combined. Does that mean it's higher on the luxury scale than the X3/X5, Q5, GLK etc.? Is it a more desirable and luxurious vehicle? I don't think a single person here would argue that. So it's clear that sales should be taken completely out of the equation when considering the luxury status of a brand.
The 2G RL is a classic example of building a fine product but failing to capture the market segment it's in. When the 2G came out the reviews placed it ahead of the 5/E classes, but the marketing and prestige of the BMW and MB still put their products ahead.
IMO this is what Honda feared most when trying to go after tier-1/RWD/V8/..... even if they executed a great product then would buyers come. They've learned that painful lesson with the NSX. Even the M, 6 and GS don't sell well in the mid-size luxury market. It's not for trying, in many ways the M is perhaps a better product yet still sells only a fraction of the 5/E.
11-11-2010, 07:47 PM
#1692
I'm glad you like your SH-AWD but you realize it's only required for a front-heavy oversteering car like an Acura. A BMW doesn't need that in order to have as good or better handling than the TL, and if you're willing to pay for an equivalent system on a BMW and Audi, you'll get something even better. That's the usual story with the Germans, you pay more to get all the same bells and whistles as Acura, but each bell and whistle is often somewhat better than the equivalent feature on Acura.
No I mean among TL buyers, why doesn't everyone get the SH-AWD version with Nav? Because in the real world people who can afford a base TL can't all afford - or are willing to pay for - a car that casts as little as $2000 more. You're making it sound like everyone who doesn't pay 10% more for a nicer car was already stretching their budget and shouldn't be spending that much on a car in the first place. You're wrong, different people have a different idea of what a sensible car budget is.
If I was buying an Acura I would HAVE to take the SH-AWD just to make up for the inferior FWD platform, so that's not really a good example. Acura badly needs this feature and unfortunately they don't have it on all their cars and it still doesn't fix the styling defects that it imposes on their cars.
I know that you're trying to turn this into a jab, but I can honestly say I could afford the 3-series, I just wanted to be very conservative with my finances. I set a budget to start with and a good 3-series just wasn't in it. It was too luxurious for me at the time.
The next time around I could afford a little more luxury and I was able to buy an A4 instead of a TSX. I got the car that I thought looked best and felt the most upscale behind the wheel.
So Lexus is not luxury now because it doesn't have a racing program. Hey at least it has the LFA. Audi has not only the R8 but also a good many years of Le Mans history and rally history with the Quattro. Much more than Lexus in any case. Acura has very little there, a couple of years of ALMS that hardly anyone knows about. So I guess your point is that out of all these companies Acura and Lexus are the ones with the last racing history and that affects their luxury status?
Not if you had already decided on a budget and you found that a well-equipped 328i is above that. But I guess you work differently, no matter what car you like, you're always ready to spend a few grand more. No wonder people are in debt... 10% here, 10% there, I'll just borrow a little more...
OK, so we agree that sales numbers don't mean anything when it comes to defining a car as "luxurious". Now we're getting somewhere.
Sure. SOME people care, and maybe those people have heard of Le Mans and maybe they've heard that BMW supplies engines in F1. Other people sit in the car and see the Audi's nicer interior and they feel THAT is more luxury. But overall Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus all have obvious luxury attributes while Acura is missing a lot more.
Yeah and in Europe Audi outsells BMW and Lexus is invisible but you don't really care about that do you?
What changed it is the fact that Audi came out with a new A4/A5 platform that effectively gets rid of an ugly large front overhang, replaces a 60/40 weight split with a much more sporty 54/46, and provides a full time AWD system that defaults to 40:60 front/rear. I also sat in a TSX, a 3-series and an A4 back to back and I found the A4 to be a class above the others. With the S-Line package the interior is not even comparable. However the discussion about luxury mainly applies to the brand, and when I walk into my Audi dealership and the first thing I see is a $200,000 R8 next to a gorgeous S5 and a fully-loaded A8, I get an impression of luxury that I just don't get from my Acura dealer's TL and ZDX...
11-11-2010, 11:04 PM
#1693
Yes, Lexus is now behind in the tranny dept. since they don't offer an 8 sp across most of their range when others do. Yes, they were the first. They were ahead before, they're not anymore. What's next, you're going to be shocked that Honda's not ahead anymore despite the fact that they were first with variable valve timing?
Yeah, so who's to say what's higher than your budget? YOU get to decide that everyone should be ready to pay 10% more but not 30% more? Sorry, I pick a maximum I want to pay and I stick with it. I'm find going all the way to the top of that but not higher. I could have gone with an Acura and paid a lot less. It's called being disciplined.
I'm glad you like your SH-AWD but you realize it's only required for a front-heavy oversteering car like an Acura. A BMW doesn't need that in order to have as good or better handling than the TL, and if you're willing to pay for an equivalent system on a BMW and Audi, you'll get something even better. That's the usual story with the Germans, you pay more to get all the same bells and whistles as Acura, but each bell and whistle is often somewhat better than the equivalent feature on Acura.
No I mean among TL buyers, why doesn't everyone get the SH-AWD version with Nav?
If I was buying an Acura I would HAVE to take the SH-AWD just to make up for the inferior FWD platform
Second, who told you that FWD cars, in principle, are "inferior" anyway?? You read it on Car & Driver??...in my life I drove fantastic FWD, horrendous RWD cars and vice-versa (ever drove a 3 series from the 80's???)...before the advent of AWD in the Rally World competiton there were FWD cars able to outhandle much more powerful RWD cars...this little cute car here (Lancia Fulvia 1600 HF):
in 1972 won the World Rally Championship...equipped only with a 1.6 liter engine was able to leave behind Porsche 911, BMW 3.0, Mercedes SL and so on because of its exceptional handling....
In more recent times, this FWD car here (Alfa Romeo 156 GTA)
Won 4 FIA European Touring Car Championship (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003) in front of your precious BMW 3 Series and one of the reasons was, again, their superior handling....so stop reading marketing material and grow your own technical knowledge...and maybe drive more cars
So Lexus is not luxury now because it doesn't have a racing program. Hey at least it has the LFA. Audi has not only the R8 but also a good many years of Le Mans history and rally history with the Quattro. Much more than Lexus in any case. Acura has very little there, a couple of years of ALMS that hardly anyone knows about. So I guess your point is that out of all these companies Acura and Lexus are the ones with the last racing history and that affects their luxury status?
Historical heritage is not just having a racing program....you still do not get it....
he next time around I could afford a little more luxury and I was able to buy an A4 instead of a TSX. I got the car that I thought looked best and felt the most upscale behind the wheel.
Sure. SOME people care, and maybe those people have heard of Le Mans and maybe they've heard that BMW supplies engines in F1. Other people sit in the car and see the Audi's nicer interior and they feel THAT is more luxury. But overall Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus all have obvious luxury attributes while Acura is missing a lot more.
Janis Joplin even wrote a song about Mercedes Benz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-GFqhCq2HA
When a rock star will write a song about an Audi we will talk.....
Saying that Audi has the same heritage and brand image of Mercedes is beyond silly....
However the discussion about luxury mainly applies to the brand, and when I walk into my Audi dealership and the first thing I see is a $200,000 R8 next to a gorgeous S5 and a fully-loaded A8, I get an impression of luxury that I just don't get from my Acura dealer's TL and ZDX...
When I did look at the S4 a broker proposed to me I could not stomach the ugly style interiors and the feeling of blandness...the nylon nets, the lack of vertical door handles, etc....the TL interior is miles ahead of any A4 trim...to each his own.....
, replaces a 60/40 weight split with a much more sporty 54/46,
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-11-2010 at 11:12 PM.
11-11-2010, 11:10 PM
#1694
I'm glad you like your SH-AWD but you realize it's only required for a front-heavy oversteering car like an Acura. A BMW doesn't need that in order to have as good or better handling than the TL, and if you're willing to pay for an equivalent system on a BMW and Audi, you'll get something even better. That's the usual story with the Germans, you pay more to get all the same bells and whistles as Acura, but each bell and whistle is often somewhat better than the equivalent feature on Acura.
Acura also does not have to worry about new platform costs which keeps the general value proposition very high and increases their profit margins tremendously. This also keeps them from having to make compromises in the vehicle's dimensions and capacities and is why they are usually the larger more spacious vehicles in class, to me that adds a lot to the whole luxury theme. There really is no significant downside, it meets nearly all of the demands of the FWD, RWD, and AWD consumers at the same time, offers more capacity and outhandles sports cars costing several thousands more.
It's true others don't need trickery as they build purer sport based cars from the start but I have already pointed out a few of their downsides. The thing about getting an equivalent system on a BMW or Audi is that it is no better, most enthusiasts based publications prefer the SH system of active vectoring AWD and the SH TL proved better handling than the S4 a couple of times now and it is a standard in a significantly cheaper package and it's more available in the lineup. The Audi with the ZF differential is only offered as an option on the S4 and S5 right now and the BMW has the same differential on the X6, X6M, and X5M only.
I believe there is some truth to paying for each item or added package and at times it can be better cause it costs more as it's designed seperately vs all included but at other times (like with SH for one) it's total BS, most of it ends up coming down to what the consumer prefers on a subjective level.
If I was buying an Acura I would HAVE to take the SH-AWD just to make up for the inferior FWD platform, so that's not really a good example. Acura badly needs this feature and unfortunately they don't have it on all their cars and it still doesn't fix the styling defects that it imposes on their cars.
Many people are just as forced to have to buy Quattro or xDrive models due to demographics, but those are also basic, dated AWD systems that have displayed inferior handling and performance ability and are no better for poor weather driving as a whole. The variants that are up to par are very limited and only made available on higher end models most of which are extemely low percentage sales and way out of Acura price ranges.
I don't believe the system imposes any style defects on the car, I believe the choice of accents or ques does, like the grills, or in the TL's case, the rear trim, otherwise they are good designs and many don't have problems with them at all, so to say it is a defect is totally subjective and as unfair.
However the discussion about luxury mainly applies to the brand, and when I walk into my Audi dealership and the first thing I see is a $200,000 R8 next to a gorgeous S5 and a fully-loaded A8, I get an impression of luxury that I just don't get from my Acura dealer's TL and ZDX...
It's what keeps them below Lexus, MB, and BMW in the US from a sales perspective but also in image but above Infiniti and Audi in sales because they have more large market appeal where they can focus on profit margins and more on the business side to it.
That's why Acura strikes balance on all levels. A brand like BMW for example does a great job of marketing their Tier 1 luxury sporty image and at the same time, developing products that stride for that at the highest level they are capable of producing, they have multiple trims and variants for each model, R&D for new exclusive platfroms for almost all of their products, can configure their builds in millions of ways, they have MINI, Rolls, and their motorbikes yet they can't keep profit margins up as result of all this while Honda/Acura is setting a few company records in profit margins while in a down economy, maybe the worst one they have ever had to produce and sell in.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 11-11-2010 at 11:21 PM.
11-11-2010, 11:35 PM
#1695
I don't really want to get in the middle here but I don't think this is a fair assessment. Acura continues to build front heavy cars only because they have SH-AWD and despite the uneven weight distributions it produces the most capable handling cars in class.
Acura also does not have to worry about new platform costs which keeps the general value proposition very high and increases their profit margins tremendously. This also keeps them from having to make compromises in the vehicle's dimensions and capacities and is why they are usually the larger more spacious vehicles in class, to me that adds a lot to the whole luxury theme. There really is no significant downside, it meets nearly all of the demands of the FWD, RWD, and AWD consumers at the same time, offers more capacity and outhandles sports cars costing several thousands more.
It's true others don't need trickery as they build purer sport based cars from the start but I have already pointed out a few of their downsides. The thing about getting an equivalent system on a BMW or Audi is that it is no better, most enthusiasts based publications prefer the SH system of active vectoring AWD and the SH TL proved better handling than the S4 a couple of times now and it is a standard in a significantly cheaper package and it's more available in the lineup. The Audi with the ZF differential is only offered as an option on the S4 and S5 right now and the BMW has the same differential on the X6, X6M, and X5M only.
I believe there is some truth to paying for each item or added package and at times it can be better cause it costs more as it's designed seperately vs all included but at other times (like with SH for one) it's total BS, most of it ends up coming down to what the consumer prefers on a subjective level.
This is also not a fair statement, if you are not in the market for FWD that is one thing but to say it is inferior as if Acura is backwards for doing so is incorrect. It's FWD because it has been historically and there is still plenty of market for a FWD luxury sedan, matter of fact it is probably one of the larger, more profitable markets.
Many people are just as forced to have to buy Quattro or xDrive models due to demographics, but those are also basic, dated AWD systems that have displayed inferior handling and performance ability and are no better for poor weather driving as a whole. The variants that are up to par are very limited and only made available on higher end models most of which are extemely low percentage sales and way out of Acura price ranges.
I don't believe the system imposes any style defects on the car, I believe the choice of accents or ques does, like the grills, or in the TL's case, the rear trim, otherwise they are good designs and many don't have problems with them at all, so to say it is a defect is totally subjective and as unfair.
This is true but it's not as though Acura cannot acheive this, they choose not to. It is this position that allows mainstream buyers a comfortable step up to a luxury buying and ownership experience and allows all luxury owners a very reliable, low cost, high resale, high safety product. The average guy is not as intimidated by them and the heavy hitters will still consider them as well. They seem to want to reach all markets in this middle ground area in between the highest mass produced Tier 1 and mainstream products.
It's what keeps them below Lexus, MB, and BMW in the US from a sales perspective but also in image but above Infiniti and Audi in sales because they have more large market appeal where they can focus on profit margins and more on the business side to it.
That's why Acura strikes balance on all levels. A brand like BMW for example does a great job of marketing their Tier 1 luxury sporty image and at the same time, developing products that stride for that at the highest level they are capable of producing, they have multiple trims and variants for each model, R&D for new exclusive platfroms for almost all of their products, can configure their builds in millions of ways, they have MINI, Rolls, and their motorbikes yet they can't keep profit margins up as result of all this while Honda/Acura is setting a few company records in profit margins while in a down economy, maybe the worst one they have ever had to produce and sell in.
Acura also does not have to worry about new platform costs which keeps the general value proposition very high and increases their profit margins tremendously. This also keeps them from having to make compromises in the vehicle's dimensions and capacities and is why they are usually the larger more spacious vehicles in class, to me that adds a lot to the whole luxury theme. There really is no significant downside, it meets nearly all of the demands of the FWD, RWD, and AWD consumers at the same time, offers more capacity and outhandles sports cars costing several thousands more.
It's true others don't need trickery as they build purer sport based cars from the start but I have already pointed out a few of their downsides. The thing about getting an equivalent system on a BMW or Audi is that it is no better, most enthusiasts based publications prefer the SH system of active vectoring AWD and the SH TL proved better handling than the S4 a couple of times now and it is a standard in a significantly cheaper package and it's more available in the lineup. The Audi with the ZF differential is only offered as an option on the S4 and S5 right now and the BMW has the same differential on the X6, X6M, and X5M only.
I believe there is some truth to paying for each item or added package and at times it can be better cause it costs more as it's designed seperately vs all included but at other times (like with SH for one) it's total BS, most of it ends up coming down to what the consumer prefers on a subjective level.
This is also not a fair statement, if you are not in the market for FWD that is one thing but to say it is inferior as if Acura is backwards for doing so is incorrect. It's FWD because it has been historically and there is still plenty of market for a FWD luxury sedan, matter of fact it is probably one of the larger, more profitable markets.
Many people are just as forced to have to buy Quattro or xDrive models due to demographics, but those are also basic, dated AWD systems that have displayed inferior handling and performance ability and are no better for poor weather driving as a whole. The variants that are up to par are very limited and only made available on higher end models most of which are extemely low percentage sales and way out of Acura price ranges.
I don't believe the system imposes any style defects on the car, I believe the choice of accents or ques does, like the grills, or in the TL's case, the rear trim, otherwise they are good designs and many don't have problems with them at all, so to say it is a defect is totally subjective and as unfair.
This is true but it's not as though Acura cannot acheive this, they choose not to. It is this position that allows mainstream buyers a comfortable step up to a luxury buying and ownership experience and allows all luxury owners a very reliable, low cost, high resale, high safety product. The average guy is not as intimidated by them and the heavy hitters will still consider them as well. They seem to want to reach all markets in this middle ground area in between the highest mass produced Tier 1 and mainstream products.
It's what keeps them below Lexus, MB, and BMW in the US from a sales perspective but also in image but above Infiniti and Audi in sales because they have more large market appeal where they can focus on profit margins and more on the business side to it.
That's why Acura strikes balance on all levels. A brand like BMW for example does a great job of marketing their Tier 1 luxury sporty image and at the same time, developing products that stride for that at the highest level they are capable of producing, they have multiple trims and variants for each model, R&D for new exclusive platfroms for almost all of their products, can configure their builds in millions of ways, they have MINI, Rolls, and their motorbikes yet they can't keep profit margins up as result of all this while Honda/Acura is setting a few company records in profit margins while in a down economy, maybe the worst one they have ever had to produce and sell in.
On top of that I would like to reiterate...who said that FWD cars are "inferior" or not fun to drive?? The Accord and TSX are among the best FWD cars in the handling department and with a manual gearbox smoth shifting to match, among the best in the industry)....I met several BMW drivers that were intoxicated by the magazine tests about their car superb balance (on a track, sunny day, perfect pavement) but on a wet surface (I live in Seattle after all) they all drive cautiously after the first fishtailing...
FWD cars have their own purpose, they allow very spacious cabin volumes...
11-11-2010, 11:43 PM
#1696
Wrong (as usual....) the RL is just a little bit more spacious (you see...traverse mounted engine advantage) than the other two
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-11-2010 at 11:57 PM.
11-12-2010, 12:27 AM
#1697
Team Owner
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http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/acur...op=3&tab=specs
In some areas the RL loses, and in others it wins.
11-12-2010, 12:48 AM
#1698
The differences aren't that substantial ...
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/acur...op=3&tab=specs
In some areas the RL loses, and in others it wins.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/acur...op=3&tab=specs
In some areas the RL loses, and in others it wins.
The RL have 1 cu. ft. more cabin volume than the A6 and 3 less than the 5 Series.
In legroom (front and back) the RL trumps both (slightly but it does)
The RL has more rear headroom than the A6.
The RL loses in cargo capacity to the other two.
11-12-2010, 01:28 AM
#1700
Yes, in February Qualcomm and Audi signed an agreement about wifi and 3g using UMTS technology: this car now is like an hot spot...
the 3g connection will spread through all the Audi range in the future.
11-12-2010, 05:37 AM
#1701
AZ Community Team
The differences aren't that substantial ...
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/acur...op=3&tab=specs
In some areas the RL loses, and in others it wins.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/acur...op=3&tab=specs
In some areas the RL loses, and in others it wins.
I changed the C to a E class but yes there is not much difference between the RL, A6, 5, and E in terms of interior dimensions.
I'm guessing the 2011 6AT will improve the fuel economy, a area the RL is behind in compared to the others.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-12-2010 at 05:39 AM.
11-12-2010, 06:27 AM
#1702
AZ Community Team
On a light note this a funny video about car "image" (Japanese Vs. German) and salesman pressure tactics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2zh2oFYs0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2zh2oFYs0g
, great scene and movie.
11-12-2010, 06:38 AM
#1703
My first Avatar....
Honda/Acura appologists and fanboi-ism is epic in this thread. Wow!
11-12-2010, 06:53 AM
#1704
אני עומד עם ישראל
All of a sudden there's two of 'em
11-12-2010, 08:01 AM
#1706
I'm the Firestarter
I really like the car but its two weak points are relatively small space and anonymous styling.
11-12-2010, 08:42 AM
#1708
I'm the Firestarter
OK so help me understand your thought process:
Time T: Company A is first to develop feature X in one car
Time T+1: Company B also introduces feature X but makes it available many more of its cars than Company A
Question: At time T+1, which company leads in feature X? This is not a trick question.
Hmm last time I check, the TL SH-AWD whipped the 335 (both RWD and X-Drive with the 335 RWD being actually faster than the X-Drive one) ass on a track even if the TL is a heavier car...case dismissed
http://www.roadandtrack.com/index.ph...door-firepower
Four-Door Firepower - Comparison Test
Sixteen doors, a dozen driven wheels, and 1266 collective horsepower unleashed.
By Douglas Kott / Photos by Guy Spangenberg
March 16, 2010
4th: TL
3rd: G37
2nd: 335i
1st: S4
Sixteen doors, a dozen driven wheels, and 1266 collective horsepower unleashed.
By Douglas Kott / Photos by Guy Spangenberg
March 16, 2010
4th: TL
3rd: G37
2nd: 335i
1st: S4
So let's see, in that comparison we have a low-priced Acura providing good value, and a high-priced Audi providing the most performance and luxury - if you have the money. That sounds exactly like what I've been saying, Audi being the higher-tiered brand that can charge that amount of money for a car and still sell comparable numbers to Acura. Point proven.
My dealer told me that the vast majority of TL are sold with the technology package (when I got my TL they had only like 2 or 3 without tech pkg over an big inventory of TLs) ...some people (especially in some locales) really do not care about the SH-AWD system. they feel they do not need it and look only for the look, space and goodies.
First...your "Audi" is originally a FWD layout (the Front Track trim...conveniently forgotten huh??) too so don't blabber about FWD inferiority.
Second, who told you that FWD cars, in principle, are "inferior" anyway?? You read it on Car & Driver??...
... (history of FWD)
... (history of FWD)
The reason I didn't want FWD was because steering is always affected when you get off the line, especially when you do a right turn. This happens even in city driving. Also I live in Canada where it snows a lot and although AWD is by no means necessary, I wanted the luxury of having it. I love it now, it's awesome in the snow. I enjoy the AWD every time I drive, and when I switch to someone else's FWD car it feels shitty. I also drove a couple of RWD cars and those feel more fun than FWD cars, the steering doesn't get polluted by torque and you can have some fun too. For bad weather it's not good so for my grandma I would definitely pick a FWD car.
Hope this helps clarify my choice.
Historical heritage is not just having a racing program....you still do not get it....
Saying that Audi has the same heritage and brand image of Mercedes is beyond silly....
There you go...proving my point again...you get intoxicated by looking at their top end models and then somehow delude yourself that you are driving a more luxurious car than a comparable Acura....marketing at its finest and, evidently, Audi hooked his little fish...
When I did look at the S4 a broker proposed to me I could not stomach the ugly style interiors and the feeling of blandness...the nylon nets, the lack of vertical door handles, etc....the TL interior is miles ahead of any A4 trim...to each his own.....
11-12-2010, 08:54 AM
#1709
I'm the Firestarter
Acura also does not have to worry about new platform costs which keeps the general value proposition very high and increases their profit margins tremendously.
This also keeps them from having to make compromises in the vehicle's dimensions and capacities and is why they are usually the larger more spacious vehicles in class, to me that adds a lot to the whole luxury theme.
And the TL may be larger (Accord-sized), but look at the RL, it's no larger inside than its competitors.
I don't believe the system imposes any style defects on the car, I believe the choice of accents or ques does, like the grills, or in the TL's case, the rear trim, otherwise they are good designs and many don't have problems with them at all, so to say it is a defect is totally subjective and as unfair.
The huge front overhang is the number one styling element that turned me off from Acura. They were able to hide it a bit from many angles on old TSX by tapering the corners, although it was still there when viewed from the side. They are able to do it less and less on the latest cars due to having to fit bigger engines, more crash regulations and just a bigger size. They don't hide it at all on the TL and ZDX. It doesn't bother some people, but for people are bothered by it and who can afford to buy a car built on a more expensive platform, they'll go for the more balanced German cars because these platforms can deliver that sort of sexier styling.
11-12-2010, 09:13 AM
#1711
AZ Community Team
I offered a potential solution to this on page 10, put the driveshafts in front of the engine/transaxle so the front wheels are positioned more forward and there's more rear-ward bias.
11-12-2010, 09:20 AM
#1712
I'm the Firestarter
It can't be that easy to do, since pretty much every car with a transverse engine has a big front overhang.
Are there any that do not?
Are there any that do not?
11-12-2010, 09:37 AM
#1713
My first Avatar....
Here you sound like a combination of SSFTX and that guy who used to love Lexus, I forget what his name was.
OK so just for shits and giggles I googled "TL-S vs 335i". I take it this is the ringing endorsement of the TL-S that you're talking about:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/index.ph...door-firepower
OK so just for shits and giggles I googled "TL-S vs 335i". I take it this is the ringing endorsement of the TL-S that you're talking about:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/index.ph...door-firepower
Why clutter the issue with the impressions of PROFESSIONAL REVIEWERS who get paid to drive and test cars for a living? I mean c'mon - when we can have the fanboi peanut gallery jam their opinions down the throat of everyone on this board.
The article fairly pionts out the advantages and short comings of EACH car. The sign of a true car enthusiast, NOT a fanboi. A true car entusiast can, and does, appreciate the accomplishment of all makers in the auto industry. Not just the accomplisments of the brand that they drive? After all competition pushes the art forward.
Future question: If Honda has a succesful coupe what does Acura NOT have one? Any reasons?
11-12-2010, 09:44 AM
#1715
I'm the Firestarter
My gut response would have been "because Honda/Acura doesn't want to pursue niches", but then immediately after I thought "ZDX" so I don't know what to say now. I'm guessing either the ZDX will get canned in the next generation or they'll come out with a new CL.
11-12-2010, 09:48 AM
#1716
AZ Community Team
3G Prelude, Honda engineers did it by tilting the whole engine/tranaxle to the rear which lowered the hood, moved the driveshafts forward and increased the wheelbase. A transverse application of Gordon Murray's BT55, you have to think outside the box.
11-12-2010, 09:53 AM
#1717
I'm the Firestarter
I think crash regulations have also forced some changes that require more space between the engine and the front of the car, so the old tricks may not be enough anymore...
11-12-2010, 10:03 AM
#1718
AZ Community Team
Like I said you have to think outside the box sometimes, most in the industry thought BMW would have to give up the straight six for crash regulations but they've made it work despite it being a long structure that transmits mechanical forces/energy very well.
11-12-2010, 10:40 AM
#1719
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Acura also does not have to worry about new platform costs which keeps the general value proposition very high and increases their profit margins tremendously. This also keeps them from having to make compromises in the vehicle's dimensions and capacities and is why they are usually the larger more spacious vehicles in class, to me that adds a lot to the whole luxury theme. There really is no significant downside, it meets nearly all of the demands of the FWD, RWD, and AWD consumers at the same time, offers more capacity and outhandles sports cars costing several thousands more.
This is also not a fair statement, if you are not in the market for FWD that is one thing but to say it is inferior as if Acura is backwards for doing so is incorrect. It's FWD because it has been historically and there is still plenty of market for a FWD luxury sedan, matter of fact it is probably one of the larger, more profitable markets.
Many people are just as forced to have to buy Quattro or xDrive models due to demographics, but those are also basic, dated AWD systems that have displayed inferior handling and performance ability and are no better for poor weather driving as a whole. The variants that are up to par are very limited and only made available on higher end models most of which are extemely low percentage sales and way out of Acura price ranges.
This is true but it's not as though Acura cannot acheive this, they choose not to. It is this position that allows mainstream buyers a comfortable step up to a luxury buying and ownership experience and allows all luxury owners a very reliable, low cost, high resale, high safety product. The average guy is not as intimidated by them and the heavy hitters will still consider them as well. They seem to want to reach all markets in this middle ground area in between the highest mass produced Tier 1 and mainstream products.
Last edited by MyCarIsntInMyWifesName; 11-12-2010 at 10:43 AM.
11-12-2010, 11:18 AM
#1720
My first Avatar....