Honda: Development and Technology News
11-09-2010, 06:36 PM
#1561
Senior Moderator
11-09-2010, 06:59 PM
#1563
Burning Brakes
Why do you have this mindset that if it doesn't have a clutch pedal then it's better off being a slushbox? F1, WRC, Le Mans, etc. all use automated "manual" gearboxes. It's simply an evolution of the automatic transmission.
11-09-2010, 07:45 PM
#1564
Quite few people must still have my "mindset"...for example the BMW M5 later offered a traditional 6 speed manual after lots of pressure from loyalists and potential customers.....
11-09-2010, 08:17 PM
#1565
AZ Community Team
11-09-2010, 08:18 PM
#1566
Burning Brakes
That is a personal opinion..I do not like robotic gearboxes and dual clutch gizmos...I love the fact that I could get the tL is a traditional manual transmission and I'm afraid of the day twhen that option will no longer be offered in production cars (I hope never)
Quite few people must still have my "mindset"...for example the BMW M5 later offered a traditional 6 speed manual after lots of pressure from loyalists and potential customers.....
Quite few people must still have my "mindset"...for example the BMW M5 later offered a traditional 6 speed manual after lots of pressure from loyalists and potential customers.....
- I'd rather have a dual-clutch than a manual if the shifts feel crappy
- Manuals aren't likely to be phased out, just because they are still incredibly popular, especially in Europe/Asia. North America is not a good representation of consumer preference as a whole.
- I'd take a dual-clutch over a slushbox.
I'm not trying to rag on you for liking manuals, because we're enthusiasts after all, but your post read like "Manuals should be manuals, and autos should be autos. It's pointless to produce a manual that shifts itself."
11-09-2010, 10:09 PM
#1567
Senior Moderator
That is a personal opinion..I do not like robotic gearboxes and dual clutch gizmos...I love the fact that I could get the tL is a traditional manual transmission and I'm afraid of the day twhen that option will no longer be offered in production cars (I hope never)
Quite few people must still have my "mindset"...for example the BMW M5 later offered a traditional 6 speed manual after lots of pressure from loyalists and potential customers.....
Quite few people must still have my "mindset"...for example the BMW M5 later offered a traditional 6 speed manual after lots of pressure from loyalists and potential customers.....
11-10-2010, 12:26 AM
#1568
I used to be that way but then i opened my eyes to advancement (a little something Acura calls "Acura Advance" but yet have failed to even come close to rofl) The DSG style trans are so much faster more efficient and FAR better for spirited driving. Give me one of them any day of the week!
11-10-2010, 07:18 AM
#1569
The thing with reliability and luxury is that a majority of people that buy a luxury car aren't concerned with reliability because, well they can afford to fix it. The problem is that the people that can't afford to fix them, buy them, and then complain about reliability. Not to say that luxury car companies aren't concerned with reliability, it's just not their top selling point. Without reliability, Toyota, Honda, et al wouldn't have a top selling point. 
Last edited by smarty666; 11-10-2010 at 07:25 AM.
11-10-2010, 07:24 AM
#1570
Audi's interior is absolutely gorgeous just like the exterior designs. Acura to me is in between Audi and BMW. Acura has nice textures and lines to look at but the amount of plastic and rattles the car gets is getting ridiculous in my opinion.
11-10-2010, 10:17 AM
#1571
The 3 series has been around what 6-7 years now? I think the interior will look older and blander. 
German interiors are stark and seem less inviting to those used to Asian cars.
The TL interior is well done but has many buttons, no optional wood and looks similar to an Accord. That said Acura interiors have always been well done in most cases.
Audi has been considered one of the leaders in interior design and quality for sometime now. You never hear any review saying "the TL interior is the standard" in contrast.
Also Audi and BMW offer much customization. If we elevate to cars like the S5, 5/7 series, Alpina, RS cars and even basic S-line Audi's the choices are amazing. White leather, 10 different woods, real aluminum or carbon fiber, suede headliners, semi-analine leathers, the list goes on.
I mean its clear which is built to a price point and which is built for what the consumer wants and people that have a higher standard. Thus why one is luxury and the other "smart" luxury whatever that means.
(FYI its hard to ignore the jibbersish)!
German interiors are stark and seem less inviting to those used to Asian cars. The TL interior is well done but has many buttons, no optional wood and looks similar to an Accord. That said Acura interiors have always been well done in most cases.
Audi has been considered one of the leaders in interior design and quality for sometime now. You never hear any review saying "the TL interior is the standard" in contrast.
Also Audi and BMW offer much customization. If we elevate to cars like the S5, 5/7 series, Alpina, RS cars and even basic S-line Audi's the choices are amazing. White leather, 10 different woods, real aluminum or carbon fiber, suede headliners, semi-analine leathers, the list goes on.
I mean its clear which is built to a price point and which is built for what the consumer wants and people that have a higher standard. Thus why one is luxury and the other "smart" luxury whatever that means.
(FYI its hard to ignore the jibbersish)!
11-10-2010, 10:20 AM
#1572
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
11-10-2010, 11:47 AM
#1575
I'm the Firestarter
You see, (I apologize in advance if this come as fanboy talk...it is not....I was one of the biggest supporter of "German superiority" in the past...until I opened my eyes) there is "smart" technology equipment and "my penis is bigger than yours" (where Germans are specialized)technology equipment.
8 speed may make a little bit of sense in very big displacement engines (after all Lexus did introduce it in the LS) it doesn't and it is frankly ridiculous on a smaller powerplant...Lexus still offer 6 speed automatic on their V6 engines..why do you think is that??....the little A4 4 cylinder blender engine with an 8 speed is plain ridiculous if not pathetic...weight and waste...another example of German sometime snonsensical "innovation"..some MB models have 2 reverse gear....plainly ridiculous...additional weight and cost for what??
Smart technology and innovation is the vectoring AWD system (with Audi precipitously copying the concept), the lane departure adaptive cruise control (Nissan), the variable timing (Honda), dual scroll turbochargers (IHI), cabin microfilter (Lexus), navigation system (Honda) etc....
Japanese tend to excel at "smart" innovation in the automotive world....most of us Japanese car admirers are attracted to their elegant solutions, hate for waste and unnecessary complication, the Zen-like approach to innovation, cost effective technology...we profoundly dislike the German pissing context "panzer" attitude....
I give you an example.....if the Japanese decided to make a Bugatti Veyron type of car they would have not have designed a horrendously complicated W16 engine with 4 turbochargers...they would probably have developed an automotive gas turbine (pioneered by Chrysler in the 50's and 60's) weighting a fraction, conceptually simpler and with with tremendous power.......
The Germans gave up on the Wankel engine because the shortcoming were considered "unworkable" (reliability and oil consumption) and basically sold the rights to Mazda for a song......and look what happened next....
8 speed may make a little bit of sense in very big displacement engines (after all Lexus did introduce it in the LS) it doesn't and it is frankly ridiculous on a smaller powerplant...Lexus still offer 6 speed automatic on their V6 engines..why do you think is that??....the little A4 4 cylinder blender engine with an 8 speed is plain ridiculous if not pathetic...weight and waste...another example of German sometime snonsensical "innovation"..some MB models have 2 reverse gear....plainly ridiculous...additional weight and cost for what??
Smart technology and innovation is the vectoring AWD system (with Audi precipitously copying the concept), the lane departure adaptive cruise control (Nissan), the variable timing (Honda), dual scroll turbochargers (IHI), cabin microfilter (Lexus), navigation system (Honda) etc....
Japanese tend to excel at "smart" innovation in the automotive world....most of us Japanese car admirers are attracted to their elegant solutions, hate for waste and unnecessary complication, the Zen-like approach to innovation, cost effective technology...we profoundly dislike the German pissing context "panzer" attitude....
I give you an example.....if the Japanese decided to make a Bugatti Veyron type of car they would have not have designed a horrendously complicated W16 engine with 4 turbochargers...they would probably have developed an automotive gas turbine (pioneered by Chrysler in the 50's and 60's) weighting a fraction, conceptually simpler and with with tremendous power.......
The Germans gave up on the Wankel engine because the shortcoming were considered "unworkable" (reliability and oil consumption) and basically sold the rights to Mazda for a song......and look what happened next....
I think the pejorative tone of your posts betrays your lack of objectivity in this matter and clearly your judgement is clouded by something.
11-10-2010, 11:54 AM
#1576
I'm the Firestarter
However, we were talking about the brands and not the lower-tiered models. As a brand, Audi and BMW are above Acura by virtue of being able to charge more for a comparable and because they offer higher-end models. If all Acura, Audi and BMW had were these three cars I'd agree that they're at the same level. But that's not how it works.
And for the record, I don't think for a second that my A4 is more of a luxury car than a TL, I see them as equals. As a brand however, Audi is definitely the higher luxury brand.
11-10-2010, 12:02 PM
#1577
I think that is a bunch of bull and your stereotyping rich and wealthy people in this regard. No matter how much money you have, normal hardworking wealthy people who use common sense and logic on every aspect of their life and any bit of education will realize that flushing their money down the toilet on a depreciating product to keep it running is not the definition of luxury I think people who do that on a BMW, MB, and Audi and think they are better than anyone else just by the stupid name on their car is living in a shallow world out of touch with reality!
11-10-2010, 12:09 PM
#1578
Actually many (includind media outlets) consider Lexus being the "standard" when it comes to build quality and craftmanship.
While the TL is not considered "the standard" (whatever that means for you...) its interiors has attracted only praise...,even people (again, including some media publication) that find the car outside styling basically hideous love the interiors.
Also Audi and BMW offer much customization. If we elevate to cars like the S5, 5/7 series, Alpina, RS cars and even basic S-line Audi's the choices are amazing. White leather, 10 different woods, real aluminum or carbon fiber, suede headliners, semi-analine leathers, the list goes on.
The Germans offer extremely vast customization options and many different trims...in Europe even more than here...the array of engines and trim level (and customization packages within the trim level) for the 3 Series is mind boggling over there...and all of this increases cost
I mean its clear which is built to a price point and which is built for what the consumer wants and people that have a higher standard. Thus why one is luxury and the other "smart" luxury whatever that means.
Built for what the consumer want?? Hmm Asian premium brands are selling as much as their German counterparts (with Lexus outselling everybody else)
Price differences when they do exist are basically begligible (if you can spend 40k for a car, you can shell out 42K or 43K)
So people buy Asian premium brands not because price point consideration.....I never met someone that bought an Infiniti or an Acura because it was cheaper than a competing Audi or BMW model...that argument is frankly silly nowadays....
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-10-2010 at 12:15 PM.
11-10-2010, 12:18 PM
#1579
I agree if you compare the A4, TL and 3, although the A4 has somewhat finer-grained plastics and trims, and there are trims available that are much better than the Acura. For example my S-Line trim has alcantara and real aluminum, you can't get that in the Acura. The 3-series is definitely behind both of those cars.
However, we were talking about the brands and not the lower-tiered models. As a brand, Audi and BMW are above Acura by virtue of being able to charge more for a comparable and because they offer higher-end models. If all Acura, Audi and BMW had were these three cars I'd agree that they're at the same level. But that's not how it works.
And for the record, I don't think for a second that my A4 is more of a luxury car than a TL, I see them as equals. As a brand however, Audi is definitely the higher luxury brand.
However, we were talking about the brands and not the lower-tiered models. As a brand, Audi and BMW are above Acura by virtue of being able to charge more for a comparable and because they offer higher-end models. If all Acura, Audi and BMW had were these three cars I'd agree that they're at the same level. But that's not how it works.
And for the record, I don't think for a second that my A4 is more of a luxury car than a TL, I see them as equals. As a brand however, Audi is definitely the higher luxury brand.
and there is that big Shipping cost for car moving from Germany to US. add another $2k.
Unlike 70% to 80% domestic content of Acura TL.
only differenc is tech package that comes standard with Acura. and it is cheaper that way as buying bulk navigation/rear camera cheaper than customzing as options
11-10-2010, 12:49 PM
#1580
I'm the Firestarter
11-10-2010, 01:16 PM
#1581
Senior Moderator
11-10-2010, 01:16 PM
#1582
If Acura produces a sub-TSX, Integra(ish) car it won't be the car for most of the complainers here. It won't be RWD, it won't have a V-8 (or V-6 for that matter), it won't be diesel, it won't be turbo and I doubt it would even have a 6AT. (Ok, maybe the 6AT could happen, it would be the most logical place to debut a 4 cylinder version of that transmission.)
So this would be a car for a younger generation to get excited about. It won't satisfy anyone who has left the brand for the reasons above.
11-10-2010, 01:18 PM
#1583
You do sound like a fanboy. You're wrong for the simple reason that when Audi switched from 6 sp to 8 sp on the exact same A4 2.0T, they improved city and highway MPG and the transmission also feels smoother. It's not a "my penis is bigger" feature, it's simply better, and in quantifiable and meaningful ways.
I think the pejorative tone of your posts betrays your lack of objectivity in this matter and clearly your judgement is clouded by something.
I think the pejorative tone of your posts betrays your lack of objectivity in this matter and clearly your judgement is clouded by something.
Smoother, I dont know about that..."smart" technology is weighting cost and benefit of something..
My judgement is clouded by the simple fact that nowadays the Japanese overall have a better value proposition, period....if one day the Germans will or the Koreans or the Indians that will condition my choice....objectivity is also the 'courage" and capability to change your own views as the circumstances dictate an the ability to avoid being fooled by glossy marketing materials..I was a big supporter of German cars in the past...up to, let's say 15 years ago they were simply the best overall...no longer the case....
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-10-2010 at 01:29 PM.
11-10-2010, 01:28 PM
#1584
You, not the vast majority of people
Let's see.....between a basic TSX (2.4 4 cylinder) and a basic 328 there is a difference of about 3.5K (~10% on a 30K car)
Actually I have to say that the Bimmer, at least mechanically, is probably the better value proposition here (hat off!!!), bigger, more powerful, smoother 6 inline engine, RWD and the supposedly superior German build quality that make you drool.
So either:
- You could not really afford a 30K car so 10% price difference for you was an insuperable barrier
- You do not know how to compare vehicles or do your math....in the same situation I would have gone for the Bimmer hands down.....
So what is it????
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-10-2010 at 01:35 PM.
11-10-2010, 01:32 PM
#1585
11-10-2010, 01:40 PM
#1586
Senior Moderator
impossible. 
If Acura produces a sub-TSX, Integra(ish) car it won't be the car for most of the complainers here. It won't be RWD, it won't have a V-8 (or V-6 for that matter), it won't be diesel, it won't be turbo and I doubt it would even have a 6AT. (Ok, maybe the 6AT could happen, it would be the most logical place to debut a 4 cylinder version of that transmission.)
So this would be a car for a younger generation to get excited about. It won't satisfy anyone who has left the brand for the reasons above.
So this would be a car for a younger generation to get excited about. It won't satisfy anyone who has left the brand for the reasons above.
11-10-2010, 01:44 PM
#1587
Senior Moderator
What am I missing here, weren't Acura, Infiniti and Lexus founded on the principal of offering a luxury car at a value (cheaper) price?
I know when I bought my TSX it wasn't necessarily cheaper than a base 323 but it was far better equipped. Which is essence, makes it cheaper.
Now that they're more established brands, I'm sure price isn't the only thing that attracts buyers, but no doubt it still helps.
I know when I bought my TSX it wasn't necessarily cheaper than a base 323 but it was far better equipped. Which is essence, makes it cheaper.
Now that they're more established brands, I'm sure price isn't the only thing that attracts buyers, but no doubt it still helps.
Last edited by dom; 11-10-2010 at 01:47 PM.
11-10-2010, 02:08 PM
#1588
What am I missing here, weren't Acura, Infiniti and Lexus founded on the principal of offering a luxury car at a value (cheaper) price?
I know when I bought my TSX it wasn't necessarily cheaper than a base 323 but it was far better equipped. Which is essence, makes it cheaper.
Now that they're more established brands, I'm sure price isn't the only thing that attracts buyers, but no doubt it still helps.
I know when I bought my TSX it wasn't necessarily cheaper than a base 323 but it was far better equipped. Which is essence, makes it cheaper.
Now that they're more established brands, I'm sure price isn't the only thing that attracts buyers, but no doubt it still helps.
German brands significantly outlease everybody else...my personal idea about the reasons:
- Wealthy individuals that can claim it as business expenses in the top range of the spectrum, quick turnover, etc..
- At the low end range and in between, wannabes stretching their monthly budget to the limit (and leasing is usually the cheapest way to access a particular car) trying to put their behind on the seat of that particular brand, impressed by the image and top end vehicles....usually these people are very receptive to marketing "stimulation".
- Secondarily, reliability considerations.
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-10-2010 at 02:11 PM.
11-10-2010, 02:35 PM
#1589
Senior Moderator
.....and nobody should care about the current price differences between comparable German and Asian cars when they are in the market for a 30K+ dollar car....and people, on average, actually don't...so the German supporters claim that people buy Asians premium cars because of price is silly.
I could probably compare German cars to their Japanese competition and show how 9 times out of 10, the Japanese car will be cheaper, similarly equipped.
In my world, price is an important factor in determining what I buy and I thought, that the majority of Acura buyers were the same. At least that's been my perspective.
I'd be interested in hearing Colin's thoughts on this since he deals with buying customers on a daily basis.
11-10-2010, 02:43 PM
#1590
Senior Moderator
What am I missing here, weren't Acura, Infiniti and Lexus founded on the principal of offering a luxury car at a value (cheaper) price?
I know when I bought my TSX it wasn't necessarily cheaper than a base 323 but it was far better equipped. Which is essence, makes it cheaper.
Now that they're more established brands, I'm sure price isn't the only thing that attracts buyers, but no doubt it still helps.
I know when I bought my TSX it wasn't necessarily cheaper than a base 323 but it was far better equipped. Which is essence, makes it cheaper.
Now that they're more established brands, I'm sure price isn't the only thing that attracts buyers, but no doubt it still helps.
That being said, what I'd do for a Porsche.
11-10-2010, 03:32 PM
#1591
Unless you have hard evidence to back any of that up, I'm going to disagree.
I could probably compare German cars to their Japanese competition and show how 9 times out of 10, the Japanese car will be cheaper, similarly equipped.
In my world, price is an important factor in determining what I buy and I thought, that the majority of Acura buyers were the same. At least that's been my perspective.
I'd be interested in hearing Colin's thoughts on this since he deals with buying customers on a daily basis.
I could probably compare German cars to their Japanese competition and show how 9 times out of 10, the Japanese car will be cheaper, similarly equipped.
In my world, price is an important factor in determining what I buy and I thought, that the majority of Acura buyers were the same. At least that's been my perspective.
I'd be interested in hearing Colin's thoughts on this since he deals with buying customers on a daily basis.
I do not have statistical data to back my statement, however I never met anyone that bought a Japanese premium car because was cheaper than a similar German car....the main reasons they went for the Japanese were:
1) They liked the car better, period
2) Afraid of German perceived less reliability and related maintenance costs (hint: BMW offer its maintenance free package not because they are particularly generous...because they had to fight that perception still in the marketplace) that is one of the driver of the higher lease rate among Germans.
3) A third distant reason, bigger service network (with the Japanese premium cars in many cases you can fall back on their regular mainstream brand network for service)
I never bought a Japanese car because of purchasing price, nor my family, friends and any people I did talk to....again, no statistical evidence but just based on the people I hang around with....
11-10-2010, 03:44 PM
#1592
Senior Moderator
I do not have statistical data to back my statement, however I never met anyone that bought a Japanese premium car because was cheaper than a similar German car....the main reasons they went for the Japanese were:
1) They liked the car better, period
2) Afraid of German perceived less reliability and related maintenance costs (hint: BMW offer its maintenance free package not because they are particularly generous...because they had to fight that perception still in the marketplace) that is one of the driver of the higher lease rate among Germans.
3) A third distant reason, bigger service network (with the Japanese premium cars in many cases you can fall back on their regular mainstream brand network for service)
I never bought a Japanese car because of purchasing price, nor my family, friends and any people I did talk to....again, no statistical evidence but just based on the people I hang around with....
1) They liked the car better, period
2) Afraid of German perceived less reliability and related maintenance costs (hint: BMW offer its maintenance free package not because they are particularly generous...because they had to fight that perception still in the marketplace) that is one of the driver of the higher lease rate among Germans.
3) A third distant reason, bigger service network (with the Japanese premium cars in many cases you can fall back on their regular mainstream brand network for service)
I never bought a Japanese car because of purchasing price, nor my family, friends and any people I did talk to....again, no statistical evidence but just based on the people I hang around with....
But your 2nd point supports what we've been saying. Price and maintenance costs can go hand in hand. Lower maintenance costs and lower purchase price = a lower cost of ownership. A Japanese car is usually the perceived better overall value, on most fronts. And its what Lexus, Acura and Infiniti used to build their brands and what Hyundai is now trying with the Genesis and Equas.
11-10-2010, 03:58 PM
#1593
My experiences have been almost the opposite. In that most buy the Japanese car because of the price of entry. Of course some may also like the car better, can't argue that. I genuinely liked my 04 TSX more than I did a 3 series sedan. The fact that it was cheaper was a nice bonus. But I wasn't prepared to ante up the 40K+ (Canada) needed to get a similarly equipped 3 series.
But your 2nd point supports what we've been saying. Price and maintenance costs can go hand in hand. Lower maintenance costs and lower purchase price = a lower cost of ownership. A Japanese car is usually the perceived better overall value, on most fronts. And its what Lexus, Acura and Infiniti used to build their brands and what Hyundai is now trying with the Genesis and Equas.
But your 2nd point supports what we've been saying. Price and maintenance costs can go hand in hand. Lower maintenance costs and lower purchase price = a lower cost of ownership. A Japanese car is usually the perceived better overall value, on most fronts. And its what Lexus, Acura and Infiniti used to build their brands and what Hyundai is now trying with the Genesis and Equas.
Just walk on an Acura or Infiniti dealer you will find the comparable German products in their used car lot and vice-versa.
11-10-2010, 03:58 PM
#1594
Senior Moderator
If Acura produces a sub-TSX, Integra(ish) car it won't be the car for most of the complainers here. It won't be RWD, it won't have a V-8 (or V-6 for that matter), it won't be diesel, it won't be turbo and I doubt it would even have a 6AT. (Ok, maybe the 6AT could happen, it would be the most logical place to debut a 4 cylinder version of that transmission.)
So this would be a car for a younger generation to get excited about. It won't satisfy anyone who has left the brand for the reasons above.
So this would be a car for a younger generation to get excited about. It won't satisfy anyone who has left the brand for the reasons above.
11-10-2010, 03:58 PM
#1595
Senior Moderator
11-10-2010, 04:04 PM
#1596
Then we have to differentiate among Japanese brands too....Lexus seems to be a notch above the other two in terms of image, they are the "Japanese Mercedes", Inifinti tries to go after BMW in driving pleasure and Acura focus on innovation and technology.....you could draw a loose parallel with Audi (again in the segments where they do compete)
Remember a better value proposition is appreciated even by people that can fork the extra dollars without much of a problem.....do you think someone buying a LS cannot afford a 7 Series or an S Class??
11-10-2010, 04:12 PM
#1597
Safety Car
Canada is probably different.....another market reality...you guys, on average, have less disposable income than the US (I lived in Vancouver for 3 years), Acura sells a dressed up Civic in Canada, not here in the US....going back to my TSX-328 example is clear...I do not think that if you really want to buy a 328 you cannot fork an extra 10% (for a better overall value car)
Just walk on an Acura or Infiniti dealer you will find the comparable German products in their used car lot and vice-versa.
Just walk on an Acura or Infiniti dealer you will find the comparable German products in their used car lot and vice-versa.
11-10-2010, 04:12 PM
#1598
Really???
A 335i (RWD) cost a tad less than a TL SH-AWD...the 335ix has basically the same MSRP (few hundreds more).....I'm sure yu can get some nice options with just 2-3000 dollars more.
Same thing.....if you cannot afford a price difference of less than 10% for a car you really want on a 40 grand purchase you cannot really afford that kind of car...you stretching it is that simple....wait a bit more before graduating to the premium segment...
11-10-2010, 04:14 PM
#1599
If I really want to buy that particular object (car or whatever) I pay the little extra....we are not talking about soap or toothpaste....turn yoru common sense on before posting...
11-10-2010, 04:22 PM
#1600
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Can we trash this troll thread yet? Or at least PW it with nonsensical babble?
Last edited by Majofo; 11-10-2010 at 04:26 PM.