Honda: Development and Technology News
#1721
My first Avatar....
![Dunno](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
A coupe is at least something people recognize. If a new coupe is based on the TL design language, I don't think it will be successful.
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
#1722
Senior Moderator
Having said that, they've made it crystal clear there will be no RWD platform.
Originally Posted by Takanobu Ito
"It would be meaningless to emulate what other companies have been doing for more than five decades," Ito said of a front-engine, rear-drive car, according to an Automotive News report.
![Dunno](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
So at this point I'm just hoping for some good looking designs where SH-AWD is used, with good power and of course reasonable weight.
#1723
I'm the Firestarter
I would love to see SH-AWD used in a smaller car, like the TSX. The TL is just too big for my taste.
#1724
Senior Moderator
Yup, but here's the issue. The V6 TSX weighs just about as much as a base TL. Which means an SH-AWD equipped TSX will weight just about as much as a SH-AWD TL. So, while is smaller, its just as heavy. And in Canada anyway, just as expensive. Doesn't make much sense. They have to somehow find a way to separate the two much more.
#1725
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
The fuck is goin on in here??
![Huh](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/huh.gif)
#1726
I'm the Firestarter
Time to update your avatar.
#1727
Senior Moderator
#1728
The TL is the most capable in its class in handling. Outside of that I don't know what you're talking about. The MDX is in the upper tier of its class but isn't the best. Same for the RL, the RDX, or the ZDX. You generalized a bit too much here. I also want to point out that you've posted before how the S4 was beaten around a track by the TL AWD. This is true, however it's not the new S4 that was beaten. The new S4 beat the TL AWD around the track in Road&Track, and other than that I haven't seen the two compete at a track. The TL still handles better but it doesn't appear to be a clear winner in being "faster".
I find this a bit strange a comment to make considering that the TL is one of the main objects of discussion here. The TL/Accord platform has made for a very compromised TL in the area of interior volume for its size. Despite being considerably larger than the 3G TL it actually LOST cubic footage in the front area. The RL isn't very roomy either for its size but is about the same as the TL, if that's any indication to you how poorly engineered that packaging was for the 4G.
The exterior to interior ratio is off on the TL as the exterior design is large and the bumpers could have been shortened maybe around a foot on the car but you are not getting interior volume out of bumpers. Acura went bigger outside then they probably should have but they are trying to gain perception that the car is headed in another direction moving up market and getting bigger, I know many don't like that but it doesn't mean they necessarily engineered the wrong product. They also decided that the RL limits what they can do with the sapce of the TL, as they want to maintain added distinction until they can transition everything.
The 3G was a very tight exterior around it's frame and platform to allow it to be viewed amongst compacts and smaller mids but it was always a large mid in disquise. The 4G is a bit inflated for the opposite perception reasons but the car should probably normally fall somewhere in between the two. This is not a functional problem it is an aesthetic one and that is very subjective.
Front wheel drive has its advantages as we all agree, but in a vehicle combining performance and luxury it has inferiorities without question. This is why most luxury brands continue to opt for rear drive. There is still a market for it, but it is inferior at the luxury level in ways it isn't in a middleclass level.
Audi's Quattro is not dated at all. Didn't the 4G TL discussion have some owners saying that the SH-AWD wasn't super great for winters while others thought it was? Quattro is amazing for winters, and again I remind you it is NOT dated. Just because it isn't designed to excel in handling doesn't mean it's dated or an inferior system. In cars where performance is more important, like the S5, S4, and RS5, they have engineered it to do so.
This is the problem with these threads. Other brands are not held to the same double standards, they seem to get the pass by saying "oh they don't design it for that" and that's ok but huge discussions arise that probably shouldn't if you just apply the same mentality and logic to Honda/Acura vehicles. Holding one to a higher regard and another lower is not necesarily a problem with the car or brand, it's with one's perception.
That excuse will never work for Acura. A LOT of companies "choose" not to do certain things. It means nothing to establish this.
It always the same thing around here and from the same people, why not talk about BMW not offering a decent FWD alternatives, or why Germans don't have more inclusive cheaper options or why I can't get a large mid sized sedan with an AWD and 6MT combo in any other luxury brand than Acura, or why others seem to suffer in resale and reliabilty, or why the entry car is too small from most other brands, etc, etc.
Most people don't complain about what brands don't do, they shut up and simply buy the one that does what they want and need it to do. I wouldn't call it an excuse when they produce more cost effective products and are considered to be very high on the value proposition list and that is a good thing when you can also be considered luxury at the same time. Maybe some will say barely luxury but that's ok because it's cheaper and is still considered luxury in the first place which is a popular balance. If one doesn't like they don't have to buy it but to constantly harp over it makes no sense to me. If that's the case then they must be doing something right.
#1729
#1730
Senior Moderator
It always the same thing around here and from the same people, why not talk about BMW not offering a decent FWD alternatives, or why Germans don't have more inclusive cheaper options or why I can't get a large mid sized sedan with an AWD and 6MT combo in any other luxury brand than Acura, or why others seem to suffer in resale and reliabilty, or why the entry car is too small from most other brands, etc, etc.
Most people don't complain about what brands don't do, they shut up and simply buy the one that does what they want and need it to do. I wouldn't call it an excuse when they produce more cost effective products and are considered to be very high on the value proposition list and that is a good thing when you can also be considered luxury at the same time. Maybe some will say barely luxury but that's ok because it's cheaper and is still considered luxury in the first place which is a popular balance. If one doesn't like they don't have to buy it but to constantly harp over it makes no sense to me. If that's the case then they must be doing something right.
Most people don't complain about what brands don't do, they shut up and simply buy the one that does what they want and need it to do. I wouldn't call it an excuse when they produce more cost effective products and are considered to be very high on the value proposition list and that is a good thing when you can also be considered luxury at the same time. Maybe some will say barely luxury but that's ok because it's cheaper and is still considered luxury in the first place which is a popular balance. If one doesn't like they don't have to buy it but to constantly harp over it makes no sense to me. If that's the case then they must be doing something right.
Have a look at the URL of the site you're on.
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
This probably isn't the case for everyone but I'd bet it is for 85% of us. We're on an Acura forum complaining about Acura products because we hold them to a higher standard than most brands, or at least did at one point.
You typically don't find long time BMW, Audi or MB owners in here criticizing Acura...because they just don't care enough. What you do find is current BMW, Audi and MB owners, who were FORMER Acura owners in here complaining. Why do you think that is? I know its sounds strange and drives a few of you nuts, but we bitch because we care. I can say that with 100% honestly. I want to see the brand succeed. I want to buy another one at some point. So naturally I'll complain when things aren't going my way. Human nature.
Maybe we've outgrown Acura, I've heard that before and its a fair statement. So should I just move on, stop commenting and be happy driving whatever non-Honda product I decided on? That's not fair of you to ask IMO. Think about why you're here. And if you're here to sing Cumbaya around your TL, then the TL section is the place for that.
And I say so with all due respect winstrolvtec, because I truly enjoy reading your perspective around here.
#1731
I beg to disagree, I think SH-AWD is the result of the FWD architecture and is a way to "fix" that, not the other way around.
And the TL may be larger (Accord-sized), but look at the RL, it's no larger inside than its competitors.
No, you forget one major thing: the front overhang. The FWD platform imposes a huge front overhang on the Acuras that all the Germans aren't forced to put on their cars. A HUGE part of what historically made the 3-series sexy was that the front wheels were all the way at the front. The latest C-class also does this. The A4/A5 does it now almost to the same extent thanks to their new platform. But Acuras are stuck with their huge noses, and it really doesn't matter what kind of grille you put on there, you're not going to get away from it until you come up with a new architecture.
The huge front overhang is the number one styling element that turned me off from Acura. They were able to hide it a bit from many angles on old TSX by tapering the corners, although it was still there when viewed from the side. They are able to do it less and less on the latest cars due to having to fit bigger engines, more crash regulations and just a bigger size. They don't hide it at all on the TL and ZDX. It doesn't bother some people, but for people are bothered by it and who can afford to buy a car built on a more expensive platform, they'll go for the more balanced German cars because these platforms can deliver that sort of sexier styling.
The huge front overhang is the number one styling element that turned me off from Acura. They were able to hide it a bit from many angles on old TSX by tapering the corners, although it was still there when viewed from the side. They are able to do it less and less on the latest cars due to having to fit bigger engines, more crash regulations and just a bigger size. They don't hide it at all on the TL and ZDX. It doesn't bother some people, but for people are bothered by it and who can afford to buy a car built on a more expensive platform, they'll go for the more balanced German cars because these platforms can deliver that sort of sexier styling.
But this is a completely opinionated discussion, I was coming from a more generalized position, yours is a more personal view, so there is a difference.
#1732
Have a look at the URL of the site you're on. ![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
This probably isn't the case for everyone but I'd bet it is for 85% of us. We're on an Acura forum complaining about Acura products because we hold them to a higher standard than most brands, or at least did at one point.
You typically don't find long time BMW, Audi or MB owners in here criticizing Acura...because they just don't care enough. What you do find is current BMW, Audi and MB owners, who were FORMER Acura owners in here complaining. Why do you think that is? I know its sounds strange and drives a few of you nuts, but we bitch because we care. I can say that with 100% honestly. I want to see the brand succeed. I want to buy another one at some point. So naturally I'll complain when things aren't going my way. Human nature.
Maybe we've outgrown Acura, I've heard that before and its a fair statement. So should I just move on, stop commenting and be happy driving whatever non-Honda product I decided on? That's not fair of you to ask IMO. Think about why you're here. And if you're here to sing Cumbaya around your TL, then the TL section is the place for that.
And I say so with all due respect winstrolvtec, because I truly enjoy reading your perspective around here.
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
This probably isn't the case for everyone but I'd bet it is for 85% of us. We're on an Acura forum complaining about Acura products because we hold them to a higher standard than most brands, or at least did at one point.
You typically don't find long time BMW, Audi or MB owners in here criticizing Acura...because they just don't care enough. What you do find is current BMW, Audi and MB owners, who were FORMER Acura owners in here complaining. Why do you think that is? I know its sounds strange and drives a few of you nuts, but we bitch because we care. I can say that with 100% honestly. I want to see the brand succeed. I want to buy another one at some point. So naturally I'll complain when things aren't going my way. Human nature.
Maybe we've outgrown Acura, I've heard that before and its a fair statement. So should I just move on, stop commenting and be happy driving whatever non-Honda product I decided on? That's not fair of you to ask IMO. Think about why you're here. And if you're here to sing Cumbaya around your TL, then the TL section is the place for that.
And I say so with all due respect winstrolvtec, because I truly enjoy reading your perspective around here.
I am not asking for anyone not have any form of thoughts or opinions on the matter, just that I sometimes don't understand where it comes from, or the double standards, and it's hard to differentiate between a former Acura owner who are here hoping for more advancments in products or those who are just here with alterior motives.
Now that I do understand better, it makes more sense, but I have grown accustomed to many biased and unbalanced posts and perspectives against Acura and their cars but for those who approach it in everyone's best interests, I apologize, but I don't think I am off base in any of Car Talk or Automotive discussions, the TL praise is left in the TL forum but this is still Acurazine afterall and it's a little strange to see former owners or non owners having the most say and opinions when their perspective might be dated and isn't any better than mine.
#1733
Here you sound like a combination of SSFTX and that guy who used to love Lexus, I forget what his name was. ![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I have huge admiration for Lexus, their build quality and interior refinement, their real profound innovation streak......build quality and attention to detail put everybody else to shame.....my dream car would have been a GS with manual transmission and the Acura SH-AWD.....
OK so help me understand your thought process:
Time T: Company A is first to develop feature X in one car
Time T+1: Company B also introduces feature X but makes it available many more of its cars than Company A
Question: At time T+1, which company leads in feature X? This is not a trick question.
Time T: Company A is first to develop feature X in one car
Time T+1: Company B also introduces feature X but makes it available many more of its cars than Company A
Question: At time T+1, which company leads in feature X? This is not a trick question.
You see I look under the skin where I buy a car..again you enjoy your 8-speed I enjoy other Acura refinements that other brands do not offer to give to you your 8 speed....simple
OK so just for shits and giggles I googled "TL-S vs 335i". I take it this is the ringing endorsement of the TL-S that you're talking about:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/index.ph...door-firepower
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Four-Door Firepower - Comparison Test
Sixteen doors, a dozen driven wheels, and 1266 collective horsepower unleashed.
By Douglas Kott / Photos by Guy Spangenberg
March 16, 2010
4th: TL
3rd: G37
2nd: 335i
1st: S4
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Yeah it's a fast car and a great value for the money, I could have told you that. But yet again it's "luxury value" vs luxury, and despite being fast it ranks last among all these brands because of the little things. I like how you specifically mentioned that your TL was faster than the 335i but not a word about the fastest car in that comparison being the Audi, nicely done... it kind of undermines your argument about Audi not being a top player in that segment doesn't it. :wink:
So let's see, in that comparison we have a low-priced Acura providing good value, and a high-priced Audi providing the most performance and luxury - if you have the money. That sounds exactly like what I've been saying, Audi being the higher-tiered brand that can charge that amount of money for a car and still sell comparable numbers to Acura. Point proven.
![Shrug](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
http://www.roadandtrack.com/index.ph...door-firepower
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Four-Door Firepower - Comparison Test
Sixteen doors, a dozen driven wheels, and 1266 collective horsepower unleashed.
By Douglas Kott / Photos by Guy Spangenberg
March 16, 2010
4th: TL
3rd: G37
2nd: 335i
1st: S4
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Yeah it's a fast car and a great value for the money, I could have told you that. But yet again it's "luxury value" vs luxury, and despite being fast it ranks last among all these brands because of the little things. I like how you specifically mentioned that your TL was faster than the 335i but not a word about the fastest car in that comparison being the Audi, nicely done... it kind of undermines your argument about Audi not being a top player in that segment doesn't it. :wink:
So let's see, in that comparison we have a low-priced Acura providing good value, and a high-priced Audi providing the most performance and luxury - if you have the money. That sounds exactly like what I've been saying, Audi being the higher-tiered brand that can charge that amount of money for a car and still sell comparable numbers to Acura. Point proven.
![Shrug](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
I never mention the S4, but once you brought that up, here you go:
=====================================
Compared to the TL, the BMW is still the benchmark for balanced handling. At almost every point on the track, either 335 and 335xi is perfectly neutral and very responsive to driver inputs. But—surprise, surprise—the TL is quicker around the track than any of the other cars. That’s by Acura’s timing of both its own test driver and of every journalist present at this press event. Given the unfamiliarity with the track and our aversion to crashing, we weren’t driving as hard as Acura’s hot shoe, but the results back up our impression.
So how does the Acura beat the more balanced BMWs, the more powerful S4, and the better power-to-weight ratio of the G35?
======================================
As I stated before, the TL whipped the 335i and the 335xi ass on a track (and the S4 behind too)....case closed I hope.....
Disclaimer...obviously it was the old S4 at the time of the test..
Link: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review
The TL consistently loses in comparison tests mainly because of its polarizing styling that many people cannot stomach...I love it....to each his own....then the issue of the extra size against the cars they do match with and the less sportier more "sterile" feeling of the SH-AWD....but it is tremendously effective on the road...trust me...
and they don't want to spend the money on features they feel aren't worth it. Which is exactly why I didn't buy a 328i when I bought my TSX. I thought that at the time, the TSX gave me what I needed for the amount of money I wanted to spend
The reason I didn't want FWD was because steering is always affected when you get off the line, especially when you do a right turn. This happens even in city driving. Also I live in Canada where it snows a lot and although AWD is by no means necessary, I wanted the luxury of having it. I love it now, it's awesome in the snow. I enjoy the AWD every time I drive, and when I switch to someone else's FWD car it feels shitty. I also drove a couple of RWD cars and those feel more fun than FWD cars, the steering doesn't get polluted by torque and you can have some fun too. For bad weather it's not good so for my grandma I would definitely pick a FWD car.
Hope this helps clarify my choice.
Hope this helps clarify my choice.
Heritage only matters if the buyer cares or knows about it. I think most people (even luxury buyers) are concerned with getting a high quality refined product. They can get more of that from the big three Germans, and from Acura they will get some of that but with more value and a bit less luxury.
Except I never said. I'm saying that Audi makes luxury cars on the same level as BMW and Mercedes and that makes it a luxury brand. You keep trying to come up with prerequisites to being considered "luxury" like having a Janis Joplin song, while at the same time you claim Lexus is more of a luxury brand than Audi. Where's the Lexus Janis Joplin song?
you can make this personal if you want but it won't change the fact that having a range of successful high-end products for which you can charge a lot of money MAKES you a luxury brand. It doesn't matter if you have songs about your product or not. It doesn't matter if you sell twice as much as the next guy.
The TL has a nice and very modern interior style design and I like it, but the truth is the materials are slighly lower quality and they have plastic where an A4 or S4 might have alcantara, CF or real aluminum. That's cheaper. It makes the TL cheaper to buy and that's fine.
The Audi offer a lot of extra if you pay, Acura gives you higher average trim appointments and less options and customizations....between fake leather (and by the way Alcantara is FAKE leather) in base A4 and top grain leather in the higher trim, Acura gives you the very good Milano...
I beg to disagree, I think SH-AWD is the result of the FWD architecture and is a way to "fix" that, not the other way around.
That's the real reason. SH-AWD is cheaper than a whole new more balanced platform.
The vaunted superior weight distribution....hmm all that engineering and in the new A4/S4 is 56/44.....the poor traverse mounted TL is an horrendous......oops!!, 58/42.....wow that is serious stuff.....the BMW 3 series, a RWD layout adapted to a AWD by a convoluted transaxle setup with back and forth transmission axles manage a better 54/46 and the 5 Series is even better with 53/47.......Audi supreme engineering....and, cuntersy of the longitudinal engine, Audi loses legroom compared to a comparable Acura car.... again please let's not pull things out of our you know what....
The FWD platform imposes a huge front overhang
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-12-2010 at 03:54 PM.
#1734
Senior Moderator
Well, I don't think its always done in everyone's best interest and sometimes its done in malice. Nobody's perfect, its easy to get carried away with a keyboard sometimes. Especially with subjects that can be passionate to some.
The one thing all these months of debate has given me is a real curiosity to get out and try a SH-AWD TL. Not at all in the market for a new car but I'd really like to see first hand how it handles. So in that respect, all you TL Fan-bois.
j/k are getting the message across.
The one thing all these months of debate has given me is a real curiosity to get out and try a SH-AWD TL. Not at all in the market for a new car but I'd really like to see first hand how it handles. So in that respect, all you TL Fan-bois.
![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
#1735
Have a look at the URL of the site you're on. ![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
This probably isn't the case for everyone but I'd bet it is for 85% of us. We're on an Acura forum complaining about Acura products because we hold them to a higher standard than most brands, or at least did at one point.
You typically don't find long time BMW, Audi or MB owners in here criticizing Acura...because they just don't care enough. What you do find is current BMW, Audi and MB owners, who were FORMER Acura owners in here complaining. Why do you think that is? I know its sounds strange and drives a few of you nuts, but we bitch because we care. I can say that with 100% honestly. I want to see the brand succeed. I want to buy another one at some point. So naturally I'll complain when things aren't going my way. Human nature.
Maybe we've outgrown Acura, I've heard that before and its a fair statement. So should I just move on, stop commenting and be happy driving whatever non-Honda product I decided on? That's not fair of you to ask IMO. Think about why you're here. And if you're here to sing Cumbaya around your TL, then the TL section is the place for that.
And I say so with all due respect winstrolvtec, because I truly enjoy reading your perspective around here.
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
This probably isn't the case for everyone but I'd bet it is for 85% of us. We're on an Acura forum complaining about Acura products because we hold them to a higher standard than most brands, or at least did at one point.
You typically don't find long time BMW, Audi or MB owners in here criticizing Acura...because they just don't care enough. What you do find is current BMW, Audi and MB owners, who were FORMER Acura owners in here complaining. Why do you think that is? I know its sounds strange and drives a few of you nuts, but we bitch because we care. I can say that with 100% honestly. I want to see the brand succeed. I want to buy another one at some point. So naturally I'll complain when things aren't going my way. Human nature.
Maybe we've outgrown Acura, I've heard that before and its a fair statement. So should I just move on, stop commenting and be happy driving whatever non-Honda product I decided on? That's not fair of you to ask IMO. Think about why you're here. And if you're here to sing Cumbaya around your TL, then the TL section is the place for that.
And I say so with all due respect winstrolvtec, because I truly enjoy reading your perspective around here.
The point I'm trying to make is that in the space where Acura compete, it does very well, it has technological edge and they are not less luxurious....everything else is just personal opinions.
#1736
Burning Brakes
I will say this: despite the TL's FWD architecture, Honda has always been good at suspension tuning. That's not too surprising though considering their involvement in F1.
What's your point? Alcantara is designed to be easy to clean and wears well. It's also quite comfortable to sit in. Who is trying to claim it's real suede? I'd take Alcantara over real leather.
Haldex isn't as poor as people would have you believe. I know some of them like to claim they can 'feel' the AWD engage mid-corner, but I think they're just off their rocker, considering how quickly it engages. There's no doubt a permanent AWD system is usually more flexible, however.
![Shrug](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
Haldex isn't as poor as people would have you believe. I know some of them like to claim they can 'feel' the AWD engage mid-corner, but I think they're just off their rocker, considering how quickly it engages. There's no doubt a permanent AWD system is usually more flexible, however.
Last edited by knavinusa; 11-12-2010 at 04:19 PM.
#1737
It always the same thing around here and from the same people, why not talk about BMW not offering a decent FWD alternatives, or why Germans don't have more inclusive cheaper options or why I can't get a large mid sized sedan with an AWD and 6MT combo in any other luxury brand than Acura, or why others seem to suffer in resale and reliabilty, or why the entry car is too small from most other brands, etc, etc.
I'm dead serious.....even if I had a very significantly larger budget, within my current usage pattern and if I was still limited to pick one car, the best vehicle for my needs/want out there was the TL.....I cannot get from anybody else a sedan as powerful, as large (so the S4 or the 335 are out), AWD and with a real manual transmission...
On top of that is drop dead gorgeaous (highly subjective I know)...I had actually people coming to me at parking lots telling me how nice it looks....park it next to an Audi or a Bimmer and you see who stands out....
Of course if I had a very large budget I could buy some other fun toys but a TL would be still in my garage....
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-12-2010 at 04:21 PM.
#1738
![Shrug](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
If we are talking about luxury...and fake leather is not luxurious as real leather, no matter how practical....we were talking about luxury....fake wood trim is more durable than real wood (at least easire to mantain)..but it is FAKE...
The TL gives you standard Milano (not full grain but a step above simple real leather) seates, perforated and with contrast stitching....
#1739
Burning Brakes
I think luxury is pretty irrelevant when you typically see Alcantara in performance cars, not luxury cars. :wink: I don't think I've ever seen an S-Class, 7-series or A8 with it.
#1740
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
If we are talking about luxury...and fake leather is not luxurious as real leather, no matter how practical....we were talking about luxury....fake wood trim is more durable than real wood (at least easire to mantain)..but it is FAKE...
The TL gives you standard Milano (not full grain but a step above simple real leather) seates, perforated and with contrast stitching....
The TL gives you standard Milano (not full grain but a step above simple real leather) seates, perforated and with contrast stitching....
#1742
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
#1743
Tell me where......there is a lightly different surface grain is some corners patches of the back seats where they round up and are stitched...is due to different treatment to make that sensitive part (constantly pulled apart) more cracking resistant (that particular patches as far as I know are actually higher grain)
It smells the same...as leather.....vynil is unmistakable to the touch...that can be a nasty lawsuit if they would not speficy the presence of vinyl in the brochures...
Look at the leather of the steering wheel for example...different touch and grain than the seats...again...for better wear resistance...
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-12-2010 at 04:50 PM.
#1744
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
Basically everything you dont sit on is vinyl.
And what lawsuit? The brochures say leather seating surfaces, not the entire cover. Not many manufacturers use leather on the entire seat cover.
And what lawsuit? The brochures say leather seating surfaces, not the entire cover. Not many manufacturers use leather on the entire seat cover.
#1745
I did not find any info about this googling around..where do you get this info?? Any link or source specifically for Acura?? Subaru, for example, in some of its models specify they have Alcantara "inserts" in their seats....some other brands specify "leather inserts" as well...
Hey if it is vinyl is the best damned vinyl I ever seen because it smells like leather and you cannot tell any different from the grain in the perforated area....
Quite different, for example, than the C-Class I tested...they clearly tell you that is not real leather but you can feel the plasticky feeling immediately....unmistakable...same for BMW...you can tell very easily...
Even if is true and all manufacturers do it...that level the playing field.....better than not having real leather at all....but again....would be interesting if you can provide any solid info on this....
#1746
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
Check the detailing section on here. Its been covered multiple times.
#1747
I'm the Firestarter
On the other hand we have alcantara being expensive, durable, and being used extensively in cars like the Bugatti Veryron, Aston Martins, Lamborghini, as well as some upper-end German brands, and never in cheap cars.
![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
#1748
My first Avatar....
and so the fanbois just keep ramming the same old fanboi speak down everyone's throat. ![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
Acura is best in world. Only Acura is worthy of consideration. We will keep saying this until everyone else comes to their senses and admit. No other car company on earth can do more with less. Best materials, best ergonomics, best lugnuts, best mirror, drop dead gorgeous best valve train, bets combustion chamber, best door handles, best handling, fastest, best aerodynamics............................
![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
![Minister](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/minister.gif)
![Minister](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/minister.gif)
Acura is best in world. Only Acura is worthy of consideration. We will keep saying this until everyone else comes to their senses and admit. No other car company on earth can do more with less. Best materials, best ergonomics, best lugnuts, best mirror, drop dead gorgeous best valve train, bets combustion chamber, best door handles, best handling, fastest, best aerodynamics............................
![Minister](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/minister.gif)
![Minister](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/minister.gif)
#1749
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
Dont forget it does all that on 225/55-18s. No other competition can do that unless with sports 7 speed auto transmission.
![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
#1750
So on one hand we have you saying that alcantara is not luxury because it's "FAKE LEATHER".
On the other hand we have alcantara being expensive, durable, and being used extensively in cars like the Bugatti Veryron, Aston Martins, Lamborghini, as well as some upper-end German brands, and never in cheap cars.
![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
On the other hand we have alcantara being expensive, durable, and being used extensively in cars like the Bugatti Veryron, Aston Martins, Lamborghini, as well as some upper-end German brands, and never in cheap cars.
![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Alcantara is used for trims in very high end cars, not seats, unless a less slippery and durable surface is required for extreme sports car that get used on a track a lot.
Some of very high end exotic sports car actually do not put much accent in luxury details but lightweight, and extreme durability in hard use.....on some Ferraris models up to few years ago, power windows were optional!!! Certain type of supercars actually want to give a minimalist image.
Alcantara was pionereed in car seats in the 80's, to be exact in 1984 on the Lancia Thema sedan (which I drove several times, I was born and raised in Italy)
The Alcantara seats on that car (not a very high end car by any stretch of imagination, just a premium sedan from a mainstream producer) was an intermediate option between the cloth seats (standard equipment) and the full leather seats...it was advertised as durable as leather but not as costly....
Here you go....Lancia Thema the first Alcantara seats car (the pic is actually of a model year 1988 restyling)...
![](http://images04.coches-motos.com/ui/1/15/02/f_40371302_1.jpeg)
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-12-2010 at 06:04 PM.
#1752
#1753
Acura is best in world. Only Acura is worthy of consideration. We will keep saying this until everyone else comes to their senses and admit. No other car company on earth can do more with less. Best materials, best ergonomics, best lugnuts, best mirror, drop dead gorgeous best valve train, bets combustion chamber, best door handles, best handling, fastest, best aerodynamics......
#1755
It happened that someone pointed how "smart luxury" was not "real luxury" and how superior the German platforms are, no "overhang", FWD, etc.........it started derailing at page 3 or 4 and Acura "supporters" were not the ones to start...
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-12-2010 at 06:13 PM.
#1756
Senior Moderator
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
Last edited by fsttyms1; 11-12-2010 at 06:23 PM.
#1757
My first Avatar....
Short of arguments??...I do not recall anybody actually saying that.....quite the contrary we just have many German car owners/admirers that feel the need to be constantly on this forum to tell us how superior and better and more luxurious their cars are.....I'm sure there are other outlets where they can share their unconditional love....
We all get it... You love your
![Ugly](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/ugly.gif)
regarding the "German car owners" did you read dom's post:
Originally Posted by dom
....You typically don't find long time BMW, Audi or MB owners in here criticizing Acura...because they just don't care enough. What you do find is current BMW, Audi and MB owners, who were FORMER Acura owners in here complaining. Why do you think that is? I know its sounds strange and drives a few of you nuts, but we bitch because we care. I can say that with 100% honestly. I want to see the brand succeed. I want to buy another one at some point. So naturally I'll complain when things aren't going my way. Human nature.
Maybe we've outgrown Acura, I've heard that before and its a fair statement. So should I just move on, stop commenting and be happy driving whatever non-Honda product I decided on? That's not fair of you to ask IMO. Think about why you're here. And if you're here to sing Cumbaya around your TL, then the TL section is the place for that....
Maybe we've outgrown Acura, I've heard that before and its a fair statement. So should I just move on, stop commenting and be happy driving whatever non-Honda product I decided on? That's not fair of you to ask IMO. Think about why you're here. And if you're here to sing Cumbaya around your TL, then the TL section is the place for that....
Just because you used to own xyz brand and now have "stopped drinking the German Koo aid"... doesn't give you any more credibility. Your ridiculous bludgeoning tactics cause people to recoil and act and speak in the opposite manner. i find myself acting this way.
I actually WANT Acura to get their shit together. But in my mind they are not getting it done, and you with your fanboi-ism causes me to reflexively regurgitate against your constant praise of a company who, to this current owner, has lost its way. They are going to lose another customer (me) when it comes time for a new car.
![Shrug](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
Argue? With a fanboi?
![rofl](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
Last edited by pttl; 11-12-2010 at 06:28 PM.
#1758
Senior Moderator
I did not find any info about this googling around..where do you get this info?? Any link or source specifically for Acura?? Subaru, for example, in some of its models specify they have Alcantara "inserts" in their seats....some other brands specify "leather inserts" as well...
Hey if it is vinyl is the best damned vinyl I ever seen because it smells like leather and you cannot tell any different from the grain in the perforated area....
Quite different, for example, than the C-Class I tested...they clearly tell you that is not real leather but you can feel the plasticky feeling immediately....unmistakable...same for BMW...you can tell very easily...
Even if is true and all manufacturers do it...that level the playing field.....better than not having real leather at all....but again....would be interesting if you can provide any solid info on this....
Hey if it is vinyl is the best damned vinyl I ever seen because it smells like leather and you cannot tell any different from the grain in the perforated area....
Quite different, for example, than the C-Class I tested...they clearly tell you that is not real leather but you can feel the plasticky feeling immediately....unmistakable...same for BMW...you can tell very easily...
Even if is true and all manufacturers do it...that level the playing field.....better than not having real leather at all....but again....would be interesting if you can provide any solid info on this....
#1759
#1760
I'm pretty sure that the only parts of the front and rear seats that is actually leather is the middle portions where the perforation's are. The sides and headrest feel of a vinyl material. They do not have the same feel and texture of the perforated area.
By the way, I hate to break it to you, but Lexus has the brand prestige and image of luxury in this country that BMW and MB do. They have the sales, offerings, reliability, and brand image to back it up. They might be for the most part bland and boring but people flock to them and when they think of luxury, BMW, MB, and LEXUS comes to mind the most. They worked hard for it and rightly deserve it.
By the way, I hate to break it to you, but Lexus has the brand prestige and image of luxury in this country that BMW and MB do. They have the sales, offerings, reliability, and brand image to back it up. They might be for the most part bland and boring but people flock to them and when they think of luxury, BMW, MB, and LEXUS comes to mind the most. They worked hard for it and rightly deserve it.
Last edited by smarty666; 11-12-2010 at 06:58 PM.