Acura: RLX News
#2201
I agree. But that type of thinking is common on these boards. The great majority of us on here are youthful males's. 20-35 year old car guys. Is it any surprise the vast majority of discussion is about horsepower, handling, wheel size, etc. Thats great for a discussion among those who care about such things, like us, but it hardly matters to the majority of car buyers in the world. Certainly not the majority of near luxury car buyers.
Many people like to argue that these things are more important to those who are buying $40-$50k cars. You know, they say; Hey if a person is spending $50k on a car he wants it to have kick, a v8, or he wants to have 19 inch wheels. News flash: Those things are more important to people buying $20k Mustangs NOT $50k luxury sedans. The average person buying an RL is 40+ years old and probably most are female. They want a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass. They want a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory. Maybe that's not the case on these car boards, but that's just because those type of people mostly aren't on here to begin with. Except for moi. The demographics are skewed.
Many people like to argue that these things are more important to those who are buying $40-$50k cars. You know, they say; Hey if a person is spending $50k on a car he wants it to have kick, a v8, or he wants to have 19 inch wheels. News flash: Those things are more important to people buying $20k Mustangs NOT $50k luxury sedans. The average person buying an RL is 40+ years old and probably most are female. They want a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass. They want a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory. Maybe that's not the case on these car boards, but that's just because those type of people mostly aren't on here to begin with. Except for moi. The demographics are skewed.
A $35k car already offers "a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass" and a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory." Acura can't try to sell a $50k car by focusing on what most buyers want, when most buyers can get that in a $35-40k car.
Sure, they offer a lot of stuff that "justifies" the $50k price tag in their minds. But those things don't justify it in most buyers minds. If you think most buyers of $50k cars don't care about the "kick" of a V8 or 19" rims or whatever, then you must agree that they care EVEN LESS about:
- a carbon-fiber reinforced driveshaft
- SH-AWD can overdrive an outside rear wheel
- that the RL is made in Japan
- it has a hand sanded primer coat
These things are what makes the RL a $50k car and not a $35k car, and the problem is most people care about this stuff even less than 19" rims or the "kick" of a V8 (or knowing that it at least offers the kick of a V8).
An analogy...let's say a guy is buying a $300k house. he can buy the moderately sized house in a $200k neighborhood, but the reason the house is $300k is that it was framed from magic wood. While a normal house with normal wood and standard design can withstand winds up to 150mph, this magic wood will keep this house standing in 200mph winds!
Or he can buy a bigger house in a $300k neighborhood that's made from normal wood and designed to stand in 200mph winds. Most would buy the bigger house.
#2202
I agree with you about what most 40 year old buyers want and need, but looking at this alone is why the RL failed.
A $35k car already offers "a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass" and a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory." Acura can't try to sell a $50k car by focusing on what most buyers want, when most buyers can get that in a $35-40k car.
Sure, they offer a lot of stuff that "justifies" the $50k price tag in their minds. But those things don't justify it in most buyers minds. If you think most buyers of $50k cars don't care about the "kick" of a V8 or 19" rims or whatever, then you must agree that they care EVEN LESS about:
- a carbon-fiber reinforced driveshaft
- SH-AWD can overdrive an outside rear wheel
- that the RL is made in Japan
- it has a hand sanded primer coat
These things are what makes the RL a $50k car and not a $35k car, and the problem is most people care about this stuff even less than 19" rims or the "kick" of a V8 (or knowing that it at least offers the kick of a V8).
An analogy...let's say a guy is buying a $300k house. he can buy the moderately sized house in a $200k neighborhood, but the reason the house is $300k is that it was framed from magic wood. While a normal house with normal wood and standard design can withstand winds up to 150mph, this magic wood will keep this house standing in 200mph winds!
Or he can buy a bigger house in a $300k neighborhood that's made from normal wood and designed to stand in 200mph winds. Most would buy the bigger house.
A $35k car already offers "a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass" and a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory." Acura can't try to sell a $50k car by focusing on what most buyers want, when most buyers can get that in a $35-40k car.
Sure, they offer a lot of stuff that "justifies" the $50k price tag in their minds. But those things don't justify it in most buyers minds. If you think most buyers of $50k cars don't care about the "kick" of a V8 or 19" rims or whatever, then you must agree that they care EVEN LESS about:
- a carbon-fiber reinforced driveshaft
- SH-AWD can overdrive an outside rear wheel
- that the RL is made in Japan
- it has a hand sanded primer coat
These things are what makes the RL a $50k car and not a $35k car, and the problem is most people care about this stuff even less than 19" rims or the "kick" of a V8 (or knowing that it at least offers the kick of a V8).
An analogy...let's say a guy is buying a $300k house. he can buy the moderately sized house in a $200k neighborhood, but the reason the house is $300k is that it was framed from magic wood. While a normal house with normal wood and standard design can withstand winds up to 150mph, this magic wood will keep this house standing in 200mph winds!
Or he can buy a bigger house in a $300k neighborhood that's made from normal wood and designed to stand in 200mph winds. Most would buy the bigger house.
How about it's all of those things? An unfortunate witchy brew combination that just created the perfect storm to make this car a loser from a sales perspective. That last statement needs to be highlighted because I'm not saying the RL is a bad car. if you own one and it addresses your priorities then you probably like it very much and are happy. It's not as if it's a 73 Ford Pinto exploding on rear impact . It's just the wrong car at the wrong time in the wrong place. A perfect storm that happens now and then. Kind of like the Cadillac Cimarron. A terrible sales flop that hurt the Cadillac brand image which took years to shake. A failure that far exceeded the actual car's shortcomings. It was more about being the wrong car at the wrong time for the Cadillac lineup.
#2203
I'm sure that the average buyers can tell between a 300hp 2wd car (unfortunately not possible for the FWD chassis RL) and a same 300hp but with AWD car, once they step on the gas pedal. With 2 more wheels to spin up and with 2 more rubber to ground traction patches to break loose, the AWD car will seem sluggish off the line when compared to the same 2wd car.
But with ample horsepower (another 50 to 100 more hp), the difference in acceleration feel between the 2wd and the AWD cars becomes almost negligible. Once again, no such luck for the Acura RL for lacking a high-power (350-400hp) V6 or a V8 engine choice.
But with ample horsepower (another 50 to 100 more hp), the difference in acceleration feel between the 2wd and the AWD cars becomes almost negligible. Once again, no such luck for the Acura RL for lacking a high-power (350-400hp) V6 or a V8 engine choice.
And even so, this average consumer probably isn't terribly concerned with that last bit of power, otherwise cars like the E350 wouldn't sell well at all.
When compared to the A6, the RL is definitely on the losing end in terms of capturing a wide range of customers.
The A6/S6 has numerous (mechanical) flavors to choose from :
- V6 FWD
- high-power V6 AWD
- V8 AWD
- V10 AWD
- sedan/wagon body style.
The RL has a total number of 1 (mechanical) flavor to choose from :
- V6 AWD.
By making available lots of powertrain/driveline choices to customers, it is obvious that the many variations of A6 will attract a wider range of buyers, and subsequently, can command a whole lot more sales than the single-powertrain/driveline-choice RL.
Note that the all-FWD-chassis Audi is also haunted by the same problem as the also all-FWD-chassis Acura. All high-power (>290hp) engine options MUST pair with AWD mechanics. There is no other alternative, with the lack of RWD chassis for Audi.
Similarly, imagine that if Audi had a RWD chassis, there wouldn't be any more problem pairing high-power engines with 2wd mechanics. Then the mechanical matrix would become even broader, such as hypothetically :
- V6 RWD
- V6 AWD
- high-power V6 RWD
- high-power V6 AWD
- V8 RWD
- V8 AWD
- V10 RWD
- V10 AWD
- sedan/wagon body style.
This mechanical ordering matrix is now closely resemble those of BMW and MB, which use RWD on base vehicles and make available AWD as an optional upgrade. When this happens, I'm sure the A6 sales may even catch up with the 5-series, the E-class, and the GS too.
The A6/S6 has numerous (mechanical) flavors to choose from :
- V6 FWD
- high-power V6 AWD
- V8 AWD
- V10 AWD
- sedan/wagon body style.
The RL has a total number of 1 (mechanical) flavor to choose from :
- V6 AWD.
By making available lots of powertrain/driveline choices to customers, it is obvious that the many variations of A6 will attract a wider range of buyers, and subsequently, can command a whole lot more sales than the single-powertrain/driveline-choice RL.
Note that the all-FWD-chassis Audi is also haunted by the same problem as the also all-FWD-chassis Acura. All high-power (>290hp) engine options MUST pair with AWD mechanics. There is no other alternative, with the lack of RWD chassis for Audi.
Similarly, imagine that if Audi had a RWD chassis, there wouldn't be any more problem pairing high-power engines with 2wd mechanics. Then the mechanical matrix would become even broader, such as hypothetically :
- V6 RWD
- V6 AWD
- high-power V6 RWD
- high-power V6 AWD
- V8 RWD
- V8 AWD
- V10 RWD
- V10 AWD
- sedan/wagon body style.
This mechanical ordering matrix is now closely resemble those of BMW and MB, which use RWD on base vehicles and make available AWD as an optional upgrade. When this happens, I'm sure the A6 sales may even catch up with the 5-series, the E-class, and the GS too.
#2204
Yes I do agree with everything you said. I just always get twitchy fingers and start typing when people start overemphasing one shortcoming over another as the reason for the RL's failure. For some it often seems to be the lack of big V8 and RWD that is the death nail for the RL. For others it's the styling. For others still it's the price point that's killing it, or the the brand image, or product placement in the lineup. I personally think its mostly the last two but will agree that also is not the only reason.
Take brand image for example. Brands with a "premium" brand image use that image to convey certain traits to their products. Lexus's luxury and service, BMW's performance heritage, MB's quality, etc. Brands that don't yet have a premium image don't have that to depend on, so they need their products to convey the premium image that they want until its accepted. What better way to get your products to convey a certain image than to imitate those that already have that image? In other words, you want to develop an image that you're a legitimate luxury player? Offer products that are legitimate alternatives to the the current luxury players. If they offer V8 engines, you offer V8 engines. If they offer RWD, you offer RWD. If they offer a bunch of options packages, you offer a bunch of options packages. That's where I feel that V8 and RWD come in and why I don't place independent importance on image, because my opinoin is that lack of image can be overcome and it's not a secret formula...just copy what the strongest competition does. Lexus did it and it worked, Infiniti is doing it and its working, Hyudani is doing it and it's working, and Acura is NOT doing it and therefore it's NOT working.
As for price point and product placement, those things are dependent on each other. Honda chose to price the car in the midsize luxury segment and instead of adding things that the competition does to justify the price and that's generally accepted as required in the segment, they added stuff that's not as important in that segment. Is the 5 series successful because it has a carbon fiber reinforced driveshaft or SH-AWD, or hand sanded primer coat?
How about it's all of those things? An unfortunate witchy brew combination that just created the perfect storm to make this car a loser from a sales perspective. That last statement needs to be highlighted because I'm not saying the RL is a bad car. if you own one and it addresses your priorities then you probably like it very much and are happy. It's not as if it's a 73 Ford Pinto exploding on rear impact . It's just the wrong car at the wrong time in the wrong place. A perfect storm that happens now and then. Kind of like the Cadillac Cimarron. A terrible sales flop that hurt the Cadillac brand image which took years to shake. A failure that far exceeded the actual car's shortcomings. It was more about being the wrong car at the wrong time for the Cadillac lineup.
Last edited by mrdeeno; 07-24-2010 at 02:01 PM.
#2205
I can't really argue with what you say other than to caution against emphasing one of the many flaws too much. In other words, if Acura had come out with a v8 engine option at the MMC, I have a real hard time imagining that would have solved this cars problems.
As far as styling, interesting you mention that one. It's a drum that gets beat a lot. To me that's one of the last important issues causing sales problems. Styling is very subjective. It's all over the place. There are lots of cars I think are ugly that are quite successful. As long as it's not ridiculous, like the TL front nose is dangerously approaching, I think it matters very little. The TL is good example actually. Only the face a mother could love but it sells WAY more than 150 a month as we know. And before anyone says it, DON"T. Don't say that looks matters more when you're spending $50k or more. As if people only develop a sense of style when they have come to have a little more money in their pockets. Again, it's not one thing, or even a couple things.
As far as styling, interesting you mention that one. It's a drum that gets beat a lot. To me that's one of the last important issues causing sales problems. Styling is very subjective. It's all over the place. There are lots of cars I think are ugly that are quite successful. As long as it's not ridiculous, like the TL front nose is dangerously approaching, I think it matters very little. The TL is good example actually. Only the face a mother could love but it sells WAY more than 150 a month as we know. And before anyone says it, DON"T. Don't say that looks matters more when you're spending $50k or more. As if people only develop a sense of style when they have come to have a little more money in their pockets. Again, it's not one thing, or even a couple things.
#2206
I can't really argue with what you say other than to caution against emphasing one of the many flaws too much. In other words, if Acura had come out with a v8 engine option at the MMC, I have a real hard time imagining that would have solved this cars problems.
As far as styling, interesting you mention that one. It's a drum that gets beat a lot. To me that's one of the last important issues causing sales problems. Styling is very subjective. It's all over the place. There are lots of cars I think are ugly that are quite successful. As long as it's not ridiculous, like the TL front nose is dangerously approaching, I think it matters very little. The TL is good example actually. Only the face a mother could love but it sells WAY more than 150 a month as we know. And before anyone says it, DON"T. Don't say that looks matters more when you're spending $50k or more. As if people only develop a sense of style when they have come to have a little more money in their pockets. Again, it's not one thing, or even a couple things.
As far as styling, interesting you mention that one. It's a drum that gets beat a lot. To me that's one of the last important issues causing sales problems. Styling is very subjective. It's all over the place. There are lots of cars I think are ugly that are quite successful. As long as it's not ridiculous, like the TL front nose is dangerously approaching, I think it matters very little. The TL is good example actually. Only the face a mother could love but it sells WAY more than 150 a month as we know. And before anyone says it, DON"T. Don't say that looks matters more when you're spending $50k or more. As if people only develop a sense of style when they have come to have a little more money in their pockets. Again, it's not one thing, or even a couple things.
Well, except for one part. While the TL does sell significantly more than 150 per month, its sales have taken a hit since the 4G, and that's looking past the economic state. The competition has mostly picked itself back up to strong sales, but the TL has remained a much slower seller than in the last many years. The styling is probably what mostly has to do with it, primarily the beak and the tail. Some like me might also argue that some holes in the features area could be contributing too, but that is way further down on the list of reasons.
#2207
Let's begin by saying that I'm not suggesting that the RL isn't a lame duck at this point. Nor am I suggesting that the items below are enough to offset the perceived (or real) deficiencies of the car. But the RL still has differences from the rest of the lineup that are not obvious to most shoppers or even many of the people here. The RL (off the top of my head):
- Is made in Japan (not a big deal to me, but important to some)
- Is the only Acura to offer adaptive headlights
- Is the only Acura with real wood trim
- Is the only Acura with a hand sanded primer coat
- Is the only SH system with the variable acceleration device with up to 5.7% overdrive
- Is the only SH system with a carbon fiber reinforced prop shaft
- Uses aluminum for the hood, front fenders, trunk, subframes, wishbones (the most aluminum since the NSX)
Not that this makes any difference in sales, but there are little gems in there that are overlooked.
- Is made in Japan (not a big deal to me, but important to some)
- Is the only Acura to offer adaptive headlights
- Is the only Acura with real wood trim
- Is the only Acura with a hand sanded primer coat
- Is the only SH system with the variable acceleration device with up to 5.7% overdrive
- Is the only SH system with a carbon fiber reinforced prop shaft
- Uses aluminum for the hood, front fenders, trunk, subframes, wishbones (the most aluminum since the NSX)
Not that this makes any difference in sales, but there are little gems in there that are overlooked.
you've probably seen the latest Acura commercials where they make fun of the various luxury items and the exclusive content in each one. The end of commercial is the prestige of safety in Acura vehicles which I think is a big improvement over some of the more recent commercials.
On terms of the other items in your list I don't think they are as insignificant as some thing (including myself).
BMW introduced alot of AL into the 5 series including the whole front sub-frame as well as many body panels. Similar to the RL, and BMW also used carbon fiber in the roof panel in the latest M3. Chevy used carbon fiber floor panels (sandwiched between basil wood core), Ti exhaust and a Al frame for the latest Z06. This was done for weight savings. Obviously alot of thought into cost and marketing went into this so I don't think it's as lost on folks spending the money on these items.
Acura is not alone with this approach and I'm a engineer so I appreciate it but somehow I think some (alot) of folks spending that sort money also appreciate it as well.
#2208
I can't really argue with what you say other than to caution against emphasing one of the many flaws too much. In other words, if Acura had come out with a v8 engine option at the MMC, I have a real hard time imagining that would have solved this cars problems.
As far as styling, interesting you mention that one. It's a drum that gets beat a lot. To me that's one of the last important issues causing sales problems. Styling is very subjective. It's all over the place. There are lots of cars I think are ugly that are quite successful. As long as it's not ridiculous, like the TL front nose is dangerously approaching, I think it matters very little. The TL is good example actually. Only the face a mother could love but it sells WAY more than 150 a month as we know. And before anyone says it, DON"T. Don't say that looks matters more when you're spending $50k or more. As if people only develop a sense of style when they have come to have a little more money in their pockets. Again, it's not one thing, or even a couple things.
As far as styling, interesting you mention that one. It's a drum that gets beat a lot. To me that's one of the last important issues causing sales problems. Styling is very subjective. It's all over the place. There are lots of cars I think are ugly that are quite successful. As long as it's not ridiculous, like the TL front nose is dangerously approaching, I think it matters very little. The TL is good example actually. Only the face a mother could love but it sells WAY more than 150 a month as we know. And before anyone says it, DON"T. Don't say that looks matters more when you're spending $50k or more. As if people only develop a sense of style when they have come to have a little more money in their pockets. Again, it's not one thing, or even a couple things.
If they released a V8/RWD RL it wouldn't undoubtedly solve many of the RL's current problems. Actually I think it would be a hard sell if they released a V8/RWD RL for the MMC since the damage of a non-competitive product was already done. But leaving styling aside and keeping all else equal to the current RL (available SH-AWD, same amenities and technologies, etc), had they offered a V8/RWD RL when they introduced the current version in MY2005, my opinion is that it wouldn't have suffered the fate it's currently suffering. That's how almost perfect I think the current RL is (except for the MMC and that beak, and the weak rims offered from the factory), and the "almost" part is due to lack of V8/RWD and therefore the lack of an image associated with being able to compete with the "big boys".
#2209
I can't really argue with what you say other than to caution against emphasing one of the many flaws too much. In other words, if Acura had come out with a v8 engine option at the MMC, I have a real hard time imagining that would have solved this cars problems.
As far as styling, interesting you mention that one. It's a drum that gets beat a lot. To me that's one of the last important issues causing sales problems. Styling is very subjective. It's all over the place. There are lots of cars I think are ugly that are quite successful. As long as it's not ridiculous, like the TL front nose is dangerously approaching, I think it matters very little. The TL is good example actually. Only the face a mother could love but it sells WAY more than 150 a month as we know. And before anyone says it, DON"T. Don't say that looks matters more when you're spending $50k or more. As if people only develop a sense of style when they have come to have a little more money in their pockets. Again, it's not one thing, or even a couple things.
As far as styling, interesting you mention that one. It's a drum that gets beat a lot. To me that's one of the last important issues causing sales problems. Styling is very subjective. It's all over the place. There are lots of cars I think are ugly that are quite successful. As long as it's not ridiculous, like the TL front nose is dangerously approaching, I think it matters very little. The TL is good example actually. Only the face a mother could love but it sells WAY more than 150 a month as we know. And before anyone says it, DON"T. Don't say that looks matters more when you're spending $50k or more. As if people only develop a sense of style when they have come to have a little more money in their pockets. Again, it's not one thing, or even a couple things.
#2210
Sorry I wasn't saying style has no effect on sales. Just saying I believe it has less to do with things than some think. The TL sales are down but who's to say that's not due to the increased size and price. Maybe where the TL sat before in those categories was the sweet spot and they should have left well enough alone.
Bold styling will lose you some sales. I'm sure the Audi drop jaw doesn't help sales. Certainly didn't help in the begining as I remember all the screaming about how ugly it was. But eventually people looked past it to see the other attributes the car offered. And now it's a signature look that other econo brands are trying to steal for some of Audi's mojo. Does it still turn off some and lose them sales. I'm sure. But the brand identify it offers makes up for it. Just like the ridiculous Rolls Royce inside-out radiator grill is a signature (if not ugly) look for that brand.
Bold styling will lose you some sales. I'm sure the Audi drop jaw doesn't help sales. Certainly didn't help in the begining as I remember all the screaming about how ugly it was. But eventually people looked past it to see the other attributes the car offered. And now it's a signature look that other econo brands are trying to steal for some of Audi's mojo. Does it still turn off some and lose them sales. I'm sure. But the brand identify it offers makes up for it. Just like the ridiculous Rolls Royce inside-out radiator grill is a signature (if not ugly) look for that brand.
#2211
Sorry I wasn't saying style has no effect on sales. Just saying I believe it has less to do with things than some think. The TL sales are down but who's to say that's not due to the increased size and price. Maybe where the TL sat before in those categories was the sweet spot and they should have left well enough alone.
Bold styling will lose you some sales. I'm sure the Audi drop jaw doesn't help sales. Certainly didn't help in the begining as I remember all the screaming about how ugly it was. But eventually people looked past it to see the other attributes the car offered. And now it's a signature look that other econo brands are trying to steal for some of Audi's mojo. Does it still turn off some and lose them sales. I'm sure. But the brand identify it offers makes up for it. Just like the ridiculous Rolls Royce inside-out radiator grill is a signature (if not ugly) look for that brand.
Bold styling will lose you some sales. I'm sure the Audi drop jaw doesn't help sales. Certainly didn't help in the begining as I remember all the screaming about how ugly it was. But eventually people looked past it to see the other attributes the car offered. And now it's a signature look that other econo brands are trying to steal for some of Audi's mojo. Does it still turn off some and lose them sales. I'm sure. But the brand identify it offers makes up for it. Just like the ridiculous Rolls Royce inside-out radiator grill is a signature (if not ugly) look for that brand.
#2212
Sorry I wasn't saying style has no effect on sales. Just saying I believe it has less to do with things than some think. The TL sales are down but who's to say that's not due to the increased size and price. Maybe where the TL sat before in those categories was the sweet spot and they should have left well enough alone.
Bold styling will lose you some sales. I'm sure the Audi drop jaw doesn't help sales. Certainly didn't help in the begining as I remember all the screaming about how ugly it was. But eventually people looked past it to see the other attributes the car offered. And now it's a signature look that other econo brands are trying to steal for some of Audi's mojo. Does it still turn off some and lose them sales. I'm sure. But the brand identify it offers makes up for it. Just like the ridiculous Rolls Royce inside-out radiator grill is a signature (if not ugly) look for that brand.
Bold styling will lose you some sales. I'm sure the Audi drop jaw doesn't help sales. Certainly didn't help in the begining as I remember all the screaming about how ugly it was. But eventually people looked past it to see the other attributes the car offered. And now it's a signature look that other econo brands are trying to steal for some of Audi's mojo. Does it still turn off some and lose them sales. I'm sure. But the brand identify it offers makes up for it. Just like the ridiculous Rolls Royce inside-out radiator grill is a signature (if not ugly) look for that brand.
You're always going to have some lost sales with new moves, of course, but I think if anything their sales have risen.
#2213
Correct me with sales figures if I'm wrong, but I don't think the grille ever hurt Audi's sales. Complaints were much, much more widespread AND negative with the new Acura grille.
You're always going to have some lost sales with new moves, of course, but I think if anything their sales have risen.
You're always going to have some lost sales with new moves, of course, but I think if anything their sales have risen.
The new Acura signature grille OTOH, although subjective, is generally considered ugly. People have to actively "look past" the Acura grille (especially on the TL and RL) to actually buy one.
Which makes me scratch my head...how could a design so universally panned as ugly make it off the drawing board? They could have at least considered that it works on some models and not others, so don't apply it on the ones it doesn't work on. Maybe the top honda guy was the guy who designed the grille and commanded it be put on all Acura's, and no one had the balls to challenge him, even though they all thought it was ugly and even he had his doubts, except everyone just said, "That's great, sir!" or "Very creative, sir!"
Who knows, maybe the head honcho is a fan of the aztek too...who knows.
#2214
I agree. But that type of thinking is common on these boards. The great majority of us on here are youthful males's. 20-35 year old car guys. Is it any surprise the vast majority of discussion is about horsepower, handling, wheel size, etc. Thats great for a discussion among those who care about such things, like us, but it hardly matters to the majority of car buyers in the world. Certainly not the majority of near luxury car buyers.
Many people like to argue that these things are more important to those who are buying $40-$50k cars. You know, they say; Hey if a person is spending $50k on a car he wants it to have kick, a v8, or he wants to have 19 inch wheels. News flash: Those things are more important to people buying $20k Mustangs NOT $50k luxury sedans. The average person buying an RL is 40+ years old and probably most are female. They want a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass. They want a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory. Maybe that's not the case on these car boards, but that's just because those type of people mostly aren't on here to begin with. Except for moi. The demographics are skewed.
My wife is probably the typical RL car buyer. 51 year old female. Who, by the way, could care less about fwd, rwd. She definitly appreciates the AWD, but if only given a choice between fwd or rwd she would definitely -- hold on to something -- prefer fwd. Thats seems like blasphemy but its the truth and I suspect its the truth for most females because it's "safer". Given the fact that 50+ percent of the car drivers in this country are females, the question needs to be asked; Does the v8 and RWD argument really hold water as the reason the RL isn't selling well. I say that it's part of the problem but, like the earlier argument about lack of option selection, far from the main reason. I given the main reasons I think the RL is a failure many times. I won't repeat myself again.
Many people like to argue that these things are more important to those who are buying $40-$50k cars. You know, they say; Hey if a person is spending $50k on a car he wants it to have kick, a v8, or he wants to have 19 inch wheels. News flash: Those things are more important to people buying $20k Mustangs NOT $50k luxury sedans. The average person buying an RL is 40+ years old and probably most are female. They want a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass. They want a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory. Maybe that's not the case on these car boards, but that's just because those type of people mostly aren't on here to begin with. Except for moi. The demographics are skewed.
My wife is probably the typical RL car buyer. 51 year old female. Who, by the way, could care less about fwd, rwd. She definitly appreciates the AWD, but if only given a choice between fwd or rwd she would definitely -- hold on to something -- prefer fwd. Thats seems like blasphemy but its the truth and I suspect its the truth for most females because it's "safer". Given the fact that 50+ percent of the car drivers in this country are females, the question needs to be asked; Does the v8 and RWD argument really hold water as the reason the RL isn't selling well. I say that it's part of the problem but, like the earlier argument about lack of option selection, far from the main reason. I given the main reasons I think the RL is a failure many times. I won't repeat myself again.
Within the same model family and assuming only 1 engine choice, the 2wd trim will be the cheapest whereas the AWD trim will cost the most.
Let's use the A6 as an example,
- V6 FWD : $45K
- .....
- .....
- V8 AWD : $59K
- (S6) V10 AWD : $77K.
So for those (female or not, age 40+ or not) who have a tight budget and just want to join the A6 club only pay $45K for their A6, and know-it-or-not, they automatically get the low-power FWD version of the A6.
For those (male or not, age <40 or not) who want a more capable and snow-tractable car pay $59K for their A6, and know-it-or-not, they automatically get the V8 AWD version.
For those hardcore speeders who want maximum thrills pay $77K for their V10 AWD S6.
In a way, the above buyers don't need to have any knowledge about 2wd/AWD and V6/V8/V10. They told the salesmen their needs and desires, and the salesmen will satisfy them with the required powertrain/driveline trims for the respective buyers.
Let's forget about the V8 and V10 trims for the A6 for the sake of comparing apple to apple.
The A6 has 5 powertrain/driveline trims to choose from, excluding the V8/V10 configuration and excluding the wagon body style.
But the RL has only 1 single powertrain/driveline trim available.
As the A6 has many more trims to choose from, it is going to cater to a much wider range of buyers (such as any combination of male/female/young/old/slow-driver/fast-driver/extreme-speeder/budget-minded/unlimited-budget) than the single trim RL.
The A6 might just be selling as many V6 AWD trims as the V6 AWD RL per month. But only after adding up the rest of the numerous A6 trims, the total number of A6 sales starts to fly away from that of the single (powertrain/driveline) trim RL.
The RL image is now ruin. No amount of V8 and RWD is gonna rescue it.
However, if the RL was initially available in V6/V8/RWD/AWD combinations right from the start, it would cater to much wider range of buyers who have different needs and budgets. But still it may not save the RL if the price tags aren't reasonable, but it would definitely improve sales above the current dismay level.
Since that you brought up the subject. I'm sure that most average female 40+ RL buyers have input from their partners when shopping for new cars, especially if their husbands/boyfriends are paying for them. In such case, fwd/rwd/awd and low-power/high-power engines DO matter in their new car selection processes.
#2215
Five A6 powertrain/drivetrain trims? excluding the V8 and V10? There's the 3.2, 3.0T, 4.2, and 5.2. That's four, AND four including the 8-10 cylinder choices.
Only way I understand that is if you were differentiating between Premium, Premium Plus, and Prestige, which brings the grand total to seven but also bumps the RL up to three.
Only way I understand that is if you were differentiating between Premium, Premium Plus, and Prestige, which brings the grand total to seven but also bumps the RL up to three.
#2216
My reasoning for focusing on RWD/V8 is that the current RL is NOWHERE NEAR a bad car. It's a very capable car and would satisfy 80% of the wants/needs of most people in that particular segment. But problem is, every other model in that market segment offers at least 80% of what someone wants/needs. That' missing 20% that Acura doesn't offer is being offered by everyone else. I'm not talking about only actual equipment or performance, I'm talking about every aspect, real and intrinsic, of why someone would buy a certain car (e.g. that it's associated with a "-series" or "-class", or that it's associated with OFFERING a performance oriented V8 version, or that some magazine said it's "a 5-series competitor at a cut-rate price", or whatever).
If they released a V8/RWD RL it wouldn't undoubtedly solve many of the RL's current problems. Actually I think it would be a hard sell if they released a V8/RWD RL for the MMC since the damage of a non-competitive product was already done. But leaving styling aside and keeping all else equal to the current RL (available SH-AWD, same amenities and technologies, etc), had they offered a V8/RWD RL when they introduced the current version in MY2005, my opinion is that it wouldn't have suffered the fate it's currently suffering. That's how almost perfect I think the current RL is (except for the MMC and that beak, and the weak rims offered from the factory), and the "almost" part is due to lack of V8/RWD and therefore the lack of an image associated with being able to compete with the "big boys".
If they released a V8/RWD RL it wouldn't undoubtedly solve many of the RL's current problems. Actually I think it would be a hard sell if they released a V8/RWD RL for the MMC since the damage of a non-competitive product was already done. But leaving styling aside and keeping all else equal to the current RL (available SH-AWD, same amenities and technologies, etc), had they offered a V8/RWD RL when they introduced the current version in MY2005, my opinion is that it wouldn't have suffered the fate it's currently suffering. That's how almost perfect I think the current RL is (except for the MMC and that beak, and the weak rims offered from the factory), and the "almost" part is due to lack of V8/RWD and therefore the lack of an image associated with being able to compete with the "big boys".
The RL is a damn good car, but the Acura brand doesn't have enough upscale luxury image to justify it selling at the current price. So if Acura reduces the price of the fully-loaded RL to $40K, the car will definitely sell like hotcakes.
Remember that when Lexus introduced the V8 RWD flagship LS400 22 years ago, it was priced at $40K. The price was right for a newcomer "upscale" brand, and the car was well received and praised. The Lexus brand name becomes recognized and gains fame. It was slowly given the luxury brand status. Gradually, over the decades, the price for the LS began to creep up slowly, while sales remained good. Now the LS starts at $65K and tops out at $108K.
First gain fame, then raise price ...... slowly.
Everything takes time. It takes Lexus 20+ years to achieve what it is today, and most importantly, Lexus started off with the right foot by offering V8 and RWD which were and still are almost the requirements for all luxury brands.
Acura is now locked in a vicious cycle. It's $50K flagship car can't sell because the brand name isn't upscale enough, and the brand name can't go upscale because it can't even sell a $50K car.
#2217
Five A6 powertrain/drivetrain trims? excluding the V8 and V10? There's the 3.2, 3.0T, 4.2, and 5.2. That's four, AND four including the 8-10 cylinder choices.
Only way I understand that is if you were differentiating between Premium, Premium Plus, and Prestige, which brings the grand total to seven but also bumps the RL up to three.
Only way I understand that is if you were differentiating between Premium, Premium Plus, and Prestige, which brings the grand total to seven but also bumps the RL up to three.
You were right. 7 to 3, excluding V8/V10 and wagon body style.
#2219
Make sure you get the premium plus trim at the least so you get those sweet a@# LED DRLs! , just saying, if your ever in the market for a new Audi!
#2222
.....
The average person buying an RL is 40+ years old and probably most are female. They want a car with comfortable seats to fit their fat 50 year old ass. They want a good nav system to help them with their 50 year old forgetful memory. Maybe that's not the case on these car boards, but that's just because those type of people mostly aren't on here to begin with. Except for moi. The demographics are skewed.
My wife is probably the typical RL car buyer. 51 year old female. Who, by the way, could care less about fwd, rwd. She definitly appreciates the AWD, but if only given a choice between fwd or rwd she would definitely -- hold on to something -- prefer fwd. Thats seems like blasphemy but its the truth and I suspect its the truth for most females because it's "safer". Given the fact that 50+ percent of the car drivers in this country are females, the question needs to be asked; Does the v8 and RWD argument really hold water as the reason the RL isn't selling well. I say that it's part of the problem but, like the earlier argument about lack of option selection, far from the main reason. I given the main reasons I think the RL is a failure many times. I won't repeat myself again.
Please note that all these statistics of who buys what vehicles are compiled after the respective vehicles have been manufactured and sold. These stats are often used to gauge how successful a vehicle model is when compared with the target age and gender that the vehicle is originally designed for.
In other words, the Acura RL is only able to appeal to mostly 40+ years old and probably mostly female buyers. I'm sure that Acura didn't design the RL for this limited range of customers, but unfortunately ends up this way with the very limited selection of powertrain/driveline choice and performance level.
Like I said before, if V8 and RWD had been possible, the addition of
- a super-cheap, lighter, and faster V6 RWD trim, and
- an even faster and snow-tractable V8 AWD trim, and
- an even faster than faster, and snow-tractable V8 AWD trim, and
- a super-fast V8 RWD trim
will definitely extend the customer coverage to match that of the Audi A6, likely to be 30+ years old in both sexes.
#2223
RWD will not make RL faster.
AWD A6 is as fast as RWD BMW 535/M37 with same fuel economy despite having only 6speed auto not the 8speed/7speed & 100lbs extra weight.
RL need be upgraded with 6speed Auto and MDX/ZDX engine with that new suspension.
I am pretty sure it would be as fast as 535 with even better handling.
AWD A6 is as fast as RWD BMW 535/M37 with same fuel economy despite having only 6speed auto not the 8speed/7speed & 100lbs extra weight.
RL need be upgraded with 6speed Auto and MDX/ZDX engine with that new suspension.
I am pretty sure it would be as fast as 535 with even better handling.
#2224
The MDX/ZDX engine is what is already in the RL.
And it would not be as fast as the 535. The turbo I6 in the Bimmer makes more torque then the RL. Which is the main reason Honda needs to get a damn V8.
And it would not be as fast as the 535. The turbo I6 in the Bimmer makes more torque then the RL. Which is the main reason Honda needs to get a damn V8.
#2225
Since that you brought up the subject. I'm sure that most average female 40+ RL buyers have input from their partners when shopping for new cars, especially if their husbands/boyfriends are paying for them. In such case, fwd/rwd/awd and low-power/high-power engines DO matter in their new car selection processes.
Look, I agree with most of what you guys think. I'm right there with you on your priorities and most of the arguments. But your preaching to the choir and it gives a false view of reality out there that a company like Acura has to deal with. I'm just trying to play devils advocate and inject some input from outside the choir.
#2226
ZDX reaches 0-100mph in 17 seconds. and that is 5 inch taller and 400 lbs heavier than RL. RL should get there in 14 second. which will be practicaly same as BMW 5 RWD 8speed auto.
MDX/ZDX also uses lighter wheels on 19inch. so there is way of boosting RL performance without V8.
Bottom line is engine/transmission commonality within MDX/ZDX/RL/TL/TSX/RDX. just like BMW using 3.0T in BMW 1,3,5,7, X5,X6 etc.
there is little business case for V8 unless Honda produces global V8 SUV like Toyota/Nissan.
#2227
there is modicfication in the engine that make torque band wider. there is improved performance for MDX/ZDX.
ZDX reaches 0-100mph in 17 seconds. and that is 5 inch taller and 400 lbs heavier than RL. RL should get there in 14 second. which will be practicaly same as BMW 5 RWD 8speed auto.
MDX/ZDX also uses lighter wheels on 19inch. so there is way of boosting RL performance without V8.
Bottom line is engine/transmission commonality within MDX/ZDX/RL/TL/TSX/RDX. just like BMW using 3.0T in BMW 1,3,5,7, X5,X6 etc.
there is little business case for V8 unless Honda produces global V8 SUV like Toyota/Nissan.
ZDX reaches 0-100mph in 17 seconds. and that is 5 inch taller and 400 lbs heavier than RL. RL should get there in 14 second. which will be practicaly same as BMW 5 RWD 8speed auto.
MDX/ZDX also uses lighter wheels on 19inch. so there is way of boosting RL performance without V8.
Bottom line is engine/transmission commonality within MDX/ZDX/RL/TL/TSX/RDX. just like BMW using 3.0T in BMW 1,3,5,7, X5,X6 etc.
there is little business case for V8 unless Honda produces global V8 SUV like Toyota/Nissan.
The RL should do alot of things, but it doesnt. And thats why it doesnt sell well.
#2228
RWD will not make RL faster.
AWD A6 is as fast as RWD BMW 535/M37 with same fuel economy despite having only 6speed auto not the 8speed/7speed & 100lbs extra weight.
RL need be upgraded with 6speed Auto and MDX/ZDX engine with that new suspension.
I am pretty sure it would be as fast as 535 with even better handling.
AWD A6 is as fast as RWD BMW 535/M37 with same fuel economy despite having only 6speed auto not the 8speed/7speed & 100lbs extra weight.
RL need be upgraded with 6speed Auto and MDX/ZDX engine with that new suspension.
I am pretty sure it would be as fast as 535 with even better handling.
- add unnecessary dead weight to the AWD vehicle,
- eat up usable engine power due to parasitic gearing loss of AWD gearing.
RWD (or 2wd) not only makes the resulting RWD RL faster in acceleration, it will also makes the resulting RL CHEAPER in price.
Currently, the AWD RL in the cheaper trim costs $45K. Deleting the AWD option would probably knock another ~ $3-4K off the price tag, and would also lighten the curb weight by ~ 200 pounds. A cheaper entry level price tag will sure attract more buyers. But Acura has no such option.
Unfortunately, 300hp is too much for a FWD RL (or any existing FWD sport sedan on earth) to maintain good handling capability. So the only possibility for a good-handling 300hp 2wd RL has to be a RWD RL.
So if an AWD A6 is as fast as RWD BMW 535/M37, the 2wd A6 (if available, same hp as the AWD A6) will be even faster in drag races. On the contrary, the AWD A6 will even beat the AWD 535xi (if available) and the AWD M37x in drag races with ease.
#2229
Wow, just noticed the title of this thread and am changing it. The RL is NOT, repeat, NOT dying. Honda EVP Kondo says:
"When we deliberated domestic strategy, certainly there were some opinions opting to tentatively halt the model or to replace it," Kondo said of the RL. "However, it is still our flagship, our top-of-the-line model that has been with customers for the past 20 years. We can't scrap it."
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...EM06/307269952
"When we deliberated domestic strategy, certainly there were some opinions opting to tentatively halt the model or to replace it," Kondo said of the RL. "However, it is still our flagship, our top-of-the-line model that has been with customers for the past 20 years. We can't scrap it."
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...EM06/307269952
#2235
#2236
#2237
However, it is still our flagship, our top-of-the-line model that has been with customers for the past 20 years. We can't scrap it.
#2238
#2240
How so? I'm not being critical, just wondering what your thought is.
After a gas guzzler like the CTS-V, I could be ready for a DualNote-like hybrid in an attractive package. 400 hp, 40 mpg, and good looks would attract me. We'll see if I'm ready to give up hamburger for burger-flavored tofu in 2-3 years....or buy a 3G CTS-V or move to the Bimmer side....
They've already said the V8 is dead for the next RL. I hope they change their mind now that the economy has turned the corner, but I doubt it. With the new CAFE rules, and Honda's propensity to introduce new tech with the RL, I am willing to bet that the next RL will be a hybrid, hopefully a powerful one to sate luxury car lovers like myself.
They've already said the V8 is dead for the next RL. I hope they change their mind now that the economy has turned the corner, but I doubt it. With the new CAFE rules, and Honda's propensity to introduce new tech with the RL, I am willing to bet that the next RL will be a hybrid, hopefully a powerful one to sate luxury car lovers like myself.