Acura: Development and Technology News
12-26-2011, 08:17 PM
#3601
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
There are only so many parts suppliers in the world, and not every auto company manufactures their own parts.
12-26-2011, 09:08 PM
#3602
I'm the one painting with a broad brush yet you are here now trying to break down your previous statements into greater detail to separate the different types of luxury categories. Well just like you've categorized BMW and Bentley in different categories of luxury, can't you do the same for Acura? All are considered luxury but don't always directly compete with each other. According to you, BMW should be below Lexus, Audi, and Mercedes because all three of those brands have world-class supercars while BMW has nothing. Is that a fair comparison?
The point is that Honda has tried to position Acura as a competitor not only to Lexus and Infiniti, but also to the Germans as well, when based on their lineup and pricing, many compare them to the likes of Volvo and Lincoln (premium, but not "luxury").
Whatever the case may be, Acura is getting squeezed from 3 sides.
1. Better Volvo product and Lincoln (if they get their act together).
2. GM getting Cadillac back on its feet, and less expensive models coming from Lexus, Infiniti and the Germans.
3. Hyundai and Kia offering RWD (w/ optional V8) at Acura prices.
the koolaid?Btw, the A3 sedan is a real looker; better looking than the A4.
12-26-2011, 10:07 PM
#3603
Moderator
No one really compares the mainstream luxury flagships with the ultra-luxury crowd (Rolls, Bentley); that's why BMW has Rolls, VW has Bentley and Mercedes has Maybach (at least for now).
The point is that Honda has tried to position Acura as a competitor not only to Lexus and Infiniti, but also to the Germans as well, when based on their lineup and pricing, many compare them to the likes of Volvo and Lincoln (premium, but not "luxury").
The point is that Honda has tried to position Acura as a competitor not only to Lexus and Infiniti, but also to the Germans as well, when based on their lineup and pricing, many compare them to the likes of Volvo and Lincoln (premium, but not "luxury").
12-27-2011, 02:37 AM
#3604
Midnight Marauder
12-27-2011, 07:32 AM
#3605
AZ Community Team
12-27-2011, 09:28 AM
#3606
I'm Craig
iTrader: (2)
what ever you spin it. BMW 328 is going to be lighter, lower and much better aerdynamically. It will surely beat BMW 5 series figures by wide margin. All this is achived without increasing the price of vehicle with much better standard content and much wideer technology options. even Headup display.
Good leg space in back.
It is now challenge for Acura to improve its interiors, wheel base, electronics, location of speackers, transmission, options at much lower price with 4 year maintainance.
Good leg space in back.
It is now challenge for Acura to improve its interiors, wheel base, electronics, location of speackers, transmission, options at much lower price with 4 year maintainance.
12-27-2011, 10:04 AM
#3607
AZ Community Team
http://www.hondanews.com/channels/ac...ra-rl-overview
"Acura's flagship, the RL sedan, again proves that refined luxury need not be without performance adrenaline. The RL's combination of performance, technology, aggressive styling and safety ensure that Acura's premier sedan maintains its competitive position among top tier luxury performance sedans"
You and everyone else in this thread are entitled to their opinion but it's clearly stated by Acura to be their flagship.
And many (most?) of the mid-sized sport luxury sedan comparisons included the RL in that segment when it came out. It was often one of the lower lower priced as-tested.
AFAIK, it was always meant for the mid-sized market even the longer wheelbase 2G Legend and 1G RL.
The RL wasn't meant by Acura to be "flagship" competition b/c Honda didn't want to spend the $$ (would not be a good bet on its investment) it would take to develop a proper flagship model to take on the Germans and the LS460 (it's the same reason why Nissan gave up on the Q flagship), and so was a bit of a "tweener", much like how the new Cadillac XTS will be.
And I wouldn't say that it was meant to compete with the mid-size luxury segment (many reviews base things on pricing rather than rigid segmentation).
Aside from the fact that both the RL and TL are longer than the Audi A6, based on Acura's normal pricing strategy, I highly doubt that Acura would have priced the RL more than the Audi mid-sizer, not to mention more expensive than the other German mid-sizers, if Acura really saw the RL as the mid-size competitor.
"Acura's flagship, the RL sedan, again proves that refined luxury need not be without performance adrenaline. The RL's combination of performance, technology, aggressive styling and safety ensure that Acura's premier sedan maintains its competitive position among top tier luxury performance sedans"
You and everyone else in this thread are entitled to their opinion but it's clearly stated by Acura to be their flagship.
And many (most?) of the mid-sized sport luxury sedan comparisons included the RL in that segment when it came out. It was often one of the lower lower priced as-tested.
AFAIK, it was always meant for the mid-sized market even the longer wheelbase 2G Legend and 1G RL.
The RL wasn't meant by Acura to be "flagship" competition b/c Honda didn't want to spend the $$ (would not be a good bet on its investment) it would take to develop a proper flagship model to take on the Germans and the LS460 (it's the same reason why Nissan gave up on the Q flagship), and so was a bit of a "tweener", much like how the new Cadillac XTS will be.
And I wouldn't say that it was meant to compete with the mid-size luxury segment (many reviews base things on pricing rather than rigid segmentation).
Aside from the fact that both the RL and TL are longer than the Audi A6, based on Acura's normal pricing strategy, I highly doubt that Acura would have priced the RL more than the Audi mid-sizer, not to mention more expensive than the other German mid-sizers, if Acura really saw the RL as the mid-size competitor.
12-27-2011, 03:39 PM
#3608
^ So Acura has the pricing power and requisite prestige to price their mid-size competitor right with the German brands (if not higher), when the same cannot be applied to the rest of their lineup?
Let's be real; Honda "cheaped" out in developing their "flagship", which is why they have the problem of having 2 sedans being about the same size.
Honda also cheaped out in developing their entry-level sedan model by simply bringing over the Euro/JDM Accord and rebadging it as the TSX, making their entry-level larger than most within the segment, and thus giving Acura even more of a problem with similarly sized sedans.
This is one reason why the new entry-level, the ILX, will be based off the smaller Civic platform.
This is very much the same issue that Ford has w/ Lincoln's lineup, altho Honda has done a better job differentiating Acura's lineup from Honda's.
Let's be real; Honda "cheaped" out in developing their "flagship", which is why they have the problem of having 2 sedans being about the same size.
Honda also cheaped out in developing their entry-level sedan model by simply bringing over the Euro/JDM Accord and rebadging it as the TSX, making their entry-level larger than most within the segment, and thus giving Acura even more of a problem with similarly sized sedans.
This is one reason why the new entry-level, the ILX, will be based off the smaller Civic platform.
This is very much the same issue that Ford has w/ Lincoln's lineup, altho Honda has done a better job differentiating Acura's lineup from Honda's.
12-27-2011, 10:45 PM
#3609
Austrian/Germanic firms even if they are Canadian head quartered have different fortunes.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3676...to-wall-street
Magna International Succeeds in Selling Russian Deal To Wall Street
May 30, 2007 | about: MGA
Magna has been telling analysts that it believes it can put at least $1,000 and perhaps as much as $4,000 worth of its parts on average in each Russian vehicle. Based on a market of 2 million new vehicles, that would generate between $2-billion and $8-billion in annual revenue for the company.
Pipe dream? Too soon to tell.
Magna founder Frank Stronach has always been a big thinker. But this deal with Mr. Deripaska, which gives the Russian shared control of Magna for an investment of US$1.54-billion, is his biggest plan yet.
12-28-2011, 06:28 AM
#3610
AZ Community Team
1st question, probably no to the prestige. The 3G TL competed extremely well in it's near luxury entry level sedan (same as 3-series) when it was selling 70K/year.
Your second statement is your opinion but here's my take. The Honda board in the 90's was annoyed with the 2G Legend and NSX having singular use gearboxes that were not variants of other cars. That resulted in a change for getting back to more parts bin engineering approach to future Acura models. The 1G RL did reuse the unique 2G Legend drive-train (longitudinal with a forward differential under the motor) but when the 2G RL was designed it reverted back to the more traditional Honda/Acura transverse drive-train. Was that cheapening out, in a way yes but it provided the same functionality hence at the expense of shorter wheelbase and more forward weight bias. It meant using a approach that was more universal to Honda, although I love the long wheelbase look of the 2G Legend.
And to prove the counterpoint Honda/Acura didn't cheapen out, they spent time/money developing the SH-AWD system that was universally better than anything else in the world when it was introduced in 2004. So your logic makes no sense as they could have just offered a FWD 2G RL they choose to emulate Audi (FWD platforms with AWD upper end models) To add to that, a 2G RL offered alot of tech at the time and is quite nicely appointed in luxury trim inside. Although some on these forums argue about the use of real wood and plastic wood in the same interior.
The TSX from the Euro Accord does not bother me what so ever. I've ridden in stripped down 5-series and E-class taxi's in Germany before. So again your who cheapening out argument is sorta pointless to anyone who's been to Europe and seen the commonality of BMW and MB sedans as what are perceived as luxury models in the states. They are luxury models in the states and also workhorse taxi's in Europe.
FWIW, I'm not thrilled about the current offerings from Acura but hopeful things will turn around soon. Back in mid-2000's they were offering a great product line that has faltered recently. But in the past they come back from similar downfalls. Remember the Vigor, 1G RL, SLX, 1G TL,... vehicles that were corrected with better offerings.
First time I saw a 1G RL, I thought how could they replace the 2G Legend with this
, then the 2G RL was introduced leaping back into some style and innovation 
.
Your second statement is your opinion but here's my take. The Honda board in the 90's was annoyed with the 2G Legend and NSX having singular use gearboxes that were not variants of other cars. That resulted in a change for getting back to more parts bin engineering approach to future Acura models. The 1G RL did reuse the unique 2G Legend drive-train (longitudinal with a forward differential under the motor) but when the 2G RL was designed it reverted back to the more traditional Honda/Acura transverse drive-train. Was that cheapening out, in a way yes but it provided the same functionality hence at the expense of shorter wheelbase and more forward weight bias. It meant using a approach that was more universal to Honda, although I love the long wheelbase look of the 2G Legend.
And to prove the counterpoint Honda/Acura didn't cheapen out, they spent time/money developing the SH-AWD system that was universally better than anything else in the world when it was introduced in 2004. So your logic makes no sense as they could have just offered a FWD 2G RL they choose to emulate Audi (FWD platforms with AWD upper end models) To add to that, a 2G RL offered alot of tech at the time and is quite nicely appointed in luxury trim inside. Although some on these forums argue about the use of real wood and plastic wood in the same interior.
The TSX from the Euro Accord does not bother me what so ever. I've ridden in stripped down 5-series and E-class taxi's in Germany before. So again your who cheapening out argument is sorta pointless to anyone who's been to Europe and seen the commonality of BMW and MB sedans as what are perceived as luxury models in the states. They are luxury models in the states and also workhorse taxi's in Europe.
FWIW, I'm not thrilled about the current offerings from Acura but hopeful things will turn around soon. Back in mid-2000's they were offering a great product line that has faltered recently. But in the past they come back from similar downfalls. Remember the Vigor, 1G RL, SLX, 1G TL,... vehicles that were corrected with better offerings.
First time I saw a 1G RL, I thought how could they replace the 2G Legend with this
, then the 2G RL was introduced leaping back into some style and innovation .^ So Acura has the pricing power and requisite prestige to price their mid-size competitor right with the German brands (if not higher), when the same cannot be applied to the rest of their lineup?
Let's be real; Honda "cheaped" out in developing their "flagship", which is why they have the problem of having 2 sedans being about the same size.
Honda also cheaped out in developing their entry-level sedan model by simply bringing over the Euro/JDM Accord and rebadging it as the TSX, making their entry-level larger than most within the segment, and thus giving Acura even more of a problem with similarly sized sedans.
This is one reason why the new entry-level, the ILX, will be based off the smaller Civic platform.
This is very much the same issue that Ford has w/ Lincoln's lineup, altho Honda has done a better job differentiating Acura's lineup from Honda's.
Let's be real; Honda "cheaped" out in developing their "flagship", which is why they have the problem of having 2 sedans being about the same size.
Honda also cheaped out in developing their entry-level sedan model by simply bringing over the Euro/JDM Accord and rebadging it as the TSX, making their entry-level larger than most within the segment, and thus giving Acura even more of a problem with similarly sized sedans.
This is one reason why the new entry-level, the ILX, will be based off the smaller Civic platform.
This is very much the same issue that Ford has w/ Lincoln's lineup, altho Honda has done a better job differentiating Acura's lineup from Honda's.
12-28-2011, 06:39 AM
#3611
AZ Community Team
The next-gen 3-series looks extremely nice, it looks to be leading it's class again in virtually everything. Actual rear legroom in a 3 series! (my brother's had three) what is BMW thinking 
what ever you spin it. BMW 328 is going to be lighter, lower and much better aerdynamically. It will surely beat BMW 5 series figures by wide margin. All this is achived without increasing the price of vehicle with much better standard content and much wideer technology options. even Headup display.
Good leg space in back.
It is now challenge for Acura to improve its interiors, wheel base, electronics, location of speackers, transmission, options at much lower price with 4 year maintainance.
Good leg space in back.
It is now challenge for Acura to improve its interiors, wheel base, electronics, location of speackers, transmission, options at much lower price with 4 year maintainance.
The following 2 users liked this post by Legend2TL:
jwong77 (12-28-2011),
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12-28-2011, 02:30 PM
#3612
Your second statement is your opinion but here's my take. The Honda board in the 90's was annoyed with the 2G Legend and NSX having singular use gearboxes that were not variants of other cars. That resulted in a change for getting back to more parts bin engineering approach to future Acura models. The 1G RL did reuse the unique 2G Legend drive-train (longitudinal with a forward differential under the motor) but when the 2G RL was designed it reverted back to the more traditional Honda/Acura transverse drive-train. Was that cheapening out, in a way yes but it provided the same functionality hence at the expense of shorter wheelbase and more forward weight bias. It meant using a approach that was more universal to Honda, although I love the long wheelbase look of the 2G Legend.
How 'bout the CSX then?
Honda at the very start didn't see Acura as a luxury brand (straight from the horses mouths of top Honda execs), but more as a transitional brand.
But seeing what Toyota had been able to do w/ Lexus (and to a lesser extent, Nissan w/ Infiniti), Honda had plans to try to push Acura to the "tier 1" luxury level (meaning RWD platform and V8 powerplant), but dropped it when it looked that it would be a financial liability.
This is the same reason why Ford dropped plans for a new RWD platform for Lincoln.
Besides, it's far cheaper to develop an AWD system than a new (esp. RWD) platform and a V8.
So your logic makes no sense as they could have just offered a FWD 2G RL they choose to emulate Audi (FWD platforms with AWD upper end models) To add to that, a 2G RL offered alot of tech at the time and is quite nicely appointed in luxury trim inside. Although some on these forums argue about the use of real wood and plastic wood in the same interior.
A7 and A8.
And the reason why Cadillac and Lincoln are highlighting AWD for their FWD-biased models is that b/c it erases some of the "economy-stench" that FWD-biased vehicles brings to the luxury market.
The TSX from the Euro Accord does not bother me what so ever. I've ridden in stripped down 5-series and E-class taxi's in Germany before. So again your who cheapening out argument is sorta pointless to anyone who's been to Europe and seen the commonality of BMW and MB sedans as what are perceived as luxury models in the states. They are luxury models in the states and also workhorse taxi's in Europe.
It would be like Toyota bringing over the Avensis, rebadging it as a Lexus and calling it "luxury" or Hyundai bringing over the i40 and not even rebadging it and calling it "luxury."
The fact remains that Honda cheapened out w/ Acura by basically using the same platforms and powerplants that Honda uses and wrapping it w/ a nicer exterior (or should I say, nicer interior).
This is exactly the reason why the TSX, TL and RL are too close together in size and why buyers get a bit confused.
Heck, even Acura seems to be all over the place when it comes to pointing out the various competitors.
When you go on the Acura site - depending on the trim levels, you get a wide range of competitors from diff. segments.
For instance, upon picking the base TSX, Acura picks out the base A4, C Class, 3 Series as well as the Volvo S40 as competitors.
When you pick the higher-end TSX, Acura picks out the higher level IS (350) and the base A6 (2.0T).
For the TL, Acura lists both the entry-level (3 Series) and base models of the mid-size (528i) segments.
http://compare.acura.com/
And for the RL, Acura chooses mid-sizers, but also chooses the LS460, as well as the Volvo S80.
So basically, Acura's sedan lineup most closely resembles that of Volvo.
Last edited by YEH; 12-28-2011 at 02:34 PM.
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ttribe (12-28-2011)
12-28-2011, 02:41 PM
#3613
Moderator
The "compare" list for the TL includes both the 328i coupe and the 528i. How does that make any sense? Who's assembling these things at Acura?
12-29-2011, 07:30 AM
#3614
AZ Community Team
So Honda merely bringing over the Euro/JDM Accord wasn't "cheapening out"?
How 'bout the CSX then?
Honda at the very start didn't see Acura as a luxury brand (straight from the horses mouths of top Honda execs), but more as a transitional brand.
But seeing what Toyota had been able to do w/ Lexus (and to a lesser extent, Nissan w/ Infiniti), Honda had plans to try to push Acura to the "tier 1" luxury level (meaning RWD platform and V8 powerplant), but dropped it when it looked that it would be a financial liability.
This is the same reason why Ford dropped plans for a new RWD platform for Lincoln.
How 'bout the CSX then?
Honda at the very start didn't see Acura as a luxury brand (straight from the horses mouths of top Honda execs), but more as a transitional brand.
But seeing what Toyota had been able to do w/ Lexus (and to a lesser extent, Nissan w/ Infiniti), Honda had plans to try to push Acura to the "tier 1" luxury level (meaning RWD platform and V8 powerplant), but dropped it when it looked that it would be a financial liability.
This is the same reason why Ford dropped plans for a new RWD platform for Lincoln.
To me bring over the JDM/Euro Accord was not as you say "cheapeaning out" but a smart move since it is well equipped for it's class. That is pretty common for alot of cars in Europe. The car industry term is "contentization", the current Euro-Civic is another model that is much better appointed than it's America counterpart, it's a much different car. The TSX was probably a OK program for Honda/Acura since the considering the cost of bring it in was minimal and it sold fair quantity although probably stole some TL sales both in the 3G and 4G (especially with the beak front styling).
IMO the CSX is a step backwards to Acura, going back to the Civic for it's intro model. Sorta a roots recall of the Integra/RSX. I just don't see that as being a good step forward.
I'm curious to see what the CSX will offer.
Not sure how old you are but Acura started before Lexus so I'm not sure where you got the idea that Acura seeing Lexus did decided on tier-1. Lexus and Acura have always had oddly different strategy and tactics for their upper line. That was evident from the start of both with the platforms. However I've not been in any Honda board meetings lately so I really don't know why they decided on the tier-1 step-up.
If you wondering why Audi and others are not paying royalties to Honda for this novel approach, it's probably because the concept was first applied/designed in the 70's by Lotus for British wheeled military vehicles. I believe there was a 6x6 military truck that used the wheel speed differential to help steer and minimze tire slip angle.
But Audi pioneered the FWD/AWD fleet engineering strategy approach first in the 80's when BMW and MB probably laughed at them. I would doubt they're laughing today.
In Europe, the TSX is a whole 2 levels down from the 5er and E Class, whether stripped or not.
It would be like Toyota bringing over the Avensis, rebadging it as a Lexus and calling it "luxury" or Hyundai bringing over the i40 and not even rebadging it and calling it "luxury."
The fact remains that Honda cheapened out w/ Acura by basically using the same platforms and powerplants that Honda uses and wrapping it w/ a nicer exterior (or should I say, nicer interior).
This is exactly the reason why the TSX, TL and RL are too close together in size and why buyers get a bit confused.
Heck, even Acura seems to be all over the place when it comes to pointing out the various competitors.
When you go on the Acura site - depending on the trim levels, you get a wide range of competitors from diff. segments.
For instance, upon picking the base TSX, Acura picks out the base A4, C Class, 3 Series as well as the Volvo S40 as competitors.
When you pick the higher-end TSX, Acura picks out the higher level IS (350) and the base A6 (2.0T).
For the TL, Acura lists both the entry-level (3 Series) and base models of the mid-size (528i) segments.
http://compare.acura.com/
And for the RL, Acura chooses mid-sizers, but also chooses the LS460, as well as the Volvo S80.
So basically, Acura's sedan lineup most closely resembles that of Volvo.
Are you sure it's not 2.2 or 1.65 levels down. Please enlighten us with your analytics
In terms of "cheaping out", to me it's efficiency but also differentiation as well. The TSX was a rebadging effort but that's about it in the current Acura lineup.
To say a 3G TL is just a 7G Accord with a nicer exterior or interior is stupid, there are plenty of components that are entirely different from the AL front sub-frame to the Torsen diffential 6MT to the Brembo brakes. I've driven both back to back (at a GM driving event) and the driving dynamics are very different. Different to the point that the suspensions (although using similar/same components) provide the 3G with very sharp handling at the expense of rear tire wear. My 3G TL is the first FWD car I've ever seen that wears rear tires faster than front due to the suspension settings/characteristics.
Charlie Barker (Honda manager who led the 2G TL design) admitted to such in a interview years ago that the TL would continue to reuse the Accord platform but would also impress that differentiation was also important.
You seem to think or believe this is some sort of Honda concept but it's been around for decades and continues today in auto manufacturers around the globe. The Maybach chassis/motor/transmission are based on MB S-class platforms, the Tourag and Cayenne share the same basic chassis as well however Porsche made a lot of changes to insure differentiation in the final product. VW and Audi do this alot as well, however it's all gray-scaled as to how much sharing is down. Audi has done a pretty decent job of keeping the difference perception high.
The size factor we all can agree on including Honda's statements on the next RL. The TSX/TL/RL are too close in size.
The Acura competition categorizes is something that confuses ttribe and you. Even the 3G TL used the C-class/3 and 5 series for comparison in the marketing release. To that point so what? Cars are not defined in rigid categories, Dieter Zetsche said so in a interview not so long ago in reference to the CLS and R classes when asked about them. Sometimes it's better to redefine your own vehicle classes as has Subaru and others have done.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 12-29-2011 at 07:34 AM.
12-29-2011, 07:32 AM
#3615
AZ Community Team
Man, can't believe I'm using that cliche
12-29-2011, 07:52 AM
#3616
AZ Community Team
Should say "IIRC Audi and Subaru did not have all like the speed/torque vectoring system SH-AWD offered in 2004."
12-29-2011, 10:06 AM
#3617
Moderator
Oh please...don't act like I'm "confused." I find it ridiculous. The two cars are completely different and Acura is comparing their model to BOTH of them. That's nonsense.
12-29-2011, 11:54 AM
#3618
Race Director
^ Have you heard the expression "same sausage, different length"? It has been true of BMW for years and certainly true with current versions of 3 and 5. I can accept someone not agreeing that the TL is between the two, but to characterize the 3 and 5 as being completely different is just wrong.
Last edited by biker; 12-29-2011 at 11:56 AM.
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civicdrivr (12-29-2011)
12-29-2011, 11:59 AM
#3619
Moderator
^ Have you heard the expression "same sausage, different length"? It has been true of BMW for years and certainly true with current versions of 3 and 5. I can accept someone not agreeing that the TL is between the two, but to characterize the 3 and 5 as being completely different is just wrong.
12-29-2011, 12:35 PM
#3620
AZ Community Team
^ OK my bad, I read your original posting too fast and didn't see the coupe. Yeah I would agree a 328i coupe is not a valid comparison to a TSX, sedan yes coupe no.
12-29-2011, 12:57 PM
#3621
Moderator
Worse than that, it was a TL, not a TSX. I just don't think there are many car buyers who choosing from among 3 coupe, 5 sedan, and TL.
12-29-2011, 06:54 PM
#3622
The TL is longer than the F10 5 Series - 195.5" to 192.9".
And when the current gen TL came out, it was even bigger than the E60 5er (191.1") - that's a full 5".
The TSX is 185.6" - which makes it considerably bigger than the 3 Series (178.2").
And this is why Acura's lineup has been screwy - too many sedans similar in size.
^ Have you heard the expression "same sausage, different length"? It has been true of BMW for years and certainly true with current versions of 3 and 5. I can accept someone not agreeing that the TL is between the two, but to characterize the 3 and 5 as being completely different is just wrong.
The E60 5er drove and was in many ways a larger 3 Series, but w/ the F10 5er, BMW switched the 5 Series to a rendition of the platform underpinning the 7 Series, so now the 5 Series is a smaller 7er and drives more like a 7 than the 3er like it had done in the past.
Last edited by YEH; 12-29-2011 at 06:59 PM.
12-29-2011, 07:31 PM
#3623
There's no problem with that, since to me the TL was always sorta a 3/5 series competition. The TSX was a smaller more 3 series competition. Alot of folks in these forums thing every car is pigeon-holed into to some highly specific detailed class/category. It does not always work that way, ask anyone who works for a auto manufacturer. A classic example is the Nissan Altima and Maxima
It has always been seen as problem for Acura in having 3 similarly-sized sedans - having 3 sedans competing against the 3/5 segments isn't exactly an efficient or effective way of doing things, but as I had stated, it came to be b/c Honda was trying to assemble Acura's lineup in a less capital intensive manner than Mercedes/BMW and its Japanese rivals.
The Altima and Maxima switched segments over time (just like how the Taurus moved up a segment, being replaced by the Fusion).
The Altima is firmly entrenched in the Camry, Sonata, Accord, Fusion, etc. segment while the Maxima is in the large, upscale FWD segment w/ the Avalon, Azera, Taurus, etc.
Acura will become a Tier 1 luxury brand--the models are on their way.
So says Dan Bonawitz, vice president for corporate planning and logistics at American Honda Motor Co. </B>
For decades, Acura has been limping along as a wannabe luxury brand. The vehicles have never been considered competitors to Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus.
Luxury vehicles are on their way, Bonawitz says. The first step toward Tier 1 status is the redesigned 2009 TL sedan.
"The TL is close but not right at Tier 1," he says. "Then we will have an all-new vehicle in 2010 that's about the same level as TL. After that, we will have a sedan coming that will clearly put us in Tier 1."
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10015470-48.html
While the Honda brand, with its longer history and larger volume, clearly is his No. 1 priority, Mendel is focusing heavily on the redefinition of the Acura brand, which celebrated its 20th anniversary last year. While young in automotive terms, the Acura is the oldest of the Japanese luxury marques.
Our goal is to move Acura into a Tier 1 luxury brand, says Mendel emphatically. We're pretty clear about it. BMW is well established, and Acura is not, in terms of a brand image. The good news for us is we don't have a lot of baggage.
Our goal is to move Acura into a Tier 1 luxury brand, says Mendel emphatically. We're pretty clear about it. BMW is well established, and Acura is not, in terms of a brand image. The good news for us is we don't have a lot of baggage.
Jeff Conrad, vice president of American Honda Motor's Acura division, concedes that dealers' expectations are high. He says Acura is working to improve its vehicles, marketing, and retail network. But achieving those goals will take time, he warns.
"Every product we launch becomes more of a Tier One product." Conrad says. "But you don't just snap your fingers and do it overnight. It is a long-term effort."
Acura dealers say they like the revamped TL. But T.Y. Lai, COO of the western region for DCH Auto Group, says sales of the redesigned model have been disappointing.
"We don't consider it luxury yet," says Lai, whose company owns four U.S. Acura dealerships. "I don't think the buyer considers it luxury."
Acura must offer vehicles in higher-priced segments if it wants to be considered a Tier 1 luxury brand, says Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis at J.D. Power and Associates.
Acura has formed a 25-person team of executives to define how it will achieve Tier 1 luxury status. John Mendel, executive vice president of automobile operations at American Honda, heads the team.
And this is the cincher...
When Honda Motor Co. Ltd. created the Acura brand for the U.S. in 1986, the auto maker did NOT intend for it to compete directly with established luxury players.
Instead, Acura would serve as an “INTERCEPT brand” for Honda customers looking for a “NEAR-luxury experience,” says John Mendel, American Honda Motor Co. Inc. executive vice president. Before Acura, those customers would have been considering more expensive European luxury brands.
That strategy soon will come to an end as Acura attempts to reposition itself to compete more directly in the luxury sector, Mendel says, with the first attempts coming after the debut of the next-generation NSX supercar in 2010.
“For the first time, we're now ready to take Acura to Tier 1,” he tells journalists at the Detroit auto show. “This involves the retail network, the product and, frankly, our mindset as an organization.”
Last edited by YEH; 12-29-2011 at 07:36 PM.
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ttribe (12-29-2011)
12-29-2011, 08:05 PM
#3624
To me bring over the JDM/Euro Accord was not as you say "cheapeaning out" but a smart move since it is well equipped for it's class. That is pretty common for alot of cars in Europe. The car industry term is "contentization", the current Euro-Civic is another model that is much better appointed than it's America counterpart, it's a much different car. The TSX was probably a OK program for Honda/Acura since the considering the cost of bring it in was minimal and it sold fair quantity although probably stole some TL sales both in the 3G and 4G (especially with the beak front styling).
Simply bringing over the Euro/JDM Accord and rebadging it as an Acura is cheapening out (as is the CSX), just as what Nissan did w/ the G20 (simply bringing over the Nissan Primera and sticking a diff. badge on it) or Toyota w/ the ES (simply sticking a diff. badge on the Camry Prominent/Vista).
And the Hyundai i40 and the Toyota Avensis are other models that are much better appointed than their American counterpart, and like the Euro Accord, are diff. cars - being a bit smaller and better appointed.
As for the AWD discussion, who cares?
There are plenty of in-depth discussions on auto boards about which AWD system is better - Honda's SH-AWD system is not the only one regarded to be at the top.
Audi is a FWD centric company, you analogy to the low-volume A7/A8 is kinda silly. Yes, the A7/A8 were always AWD intended but the same could be said for the MDX/RL.
But Audi pioneered the FWD/AWD fleet engineering strategy approach first in the 80's when BMW and MB probably laughed at them. I would doubt they're laughing today.
But Audi pioneered the FWD/AWD fleet engineering strategy approach first in the 80's when BMW and MB probably laughed at them. I would doubt they're laughing today.
There's a reason why Audi's prestige has lagged behind that of its German rivals and why it cannot command the prices of Mercedes or BMW (Audi slashed $5k off the price of the new A6 so it can better compete.)
It's also the reason why both Honda and Ford had plans for a RWD platform, as well as a V8 (another longstanding luxury pillar), but both abandoned the plans when it was determined that it was not financially feasible.
This is the same reason why GM is going forward w/ a RWD/V8 flagship despite the FWD/AWD XTS - since they want something that can compete against the S Class and they know that the XTS won't be seen as that.
When Cadillac has their entire RWD sedan lineup filled, the ATS, new CTS and RWD flagship, Cadillac will continue to pass by Lincoln and its FWD/AWD lineup.
Now, Audi "joins the club" in large part due to it being German (the whole European snobbery-thing), but even so, it lags behind Mercedes and BMW.
Models like the Passat, Accord, i40 and Avensis are in the Family segment - so that's 2 levels down from the Executive segment.
The Euro equivalents of the USDM Passat, Accord, Sonata and Camry are smaller and a bit nicer, but they're still seen as family sedans.
In certain markets (such as Australia), you often get both (both Accords and the i40/i45-Sonata are sold down under).
Really, do you know much of anything about the auto industry?
That's a nice job of a majorily spinning you are doing there.
12-30-2011, 12:27 AM
#3625
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
X3 had really cheap interior and didn't ride very well. 3 Series was to small and required expensive upgrades to look acceptable. TL hit the sweet spot on looks, features, size and price. 5 Series was good on size but again required expensive options to become acceptable. I could have whatever I wanted so the comparison wasn't that strange.
In my files I have road test of 3G TL and 2004 or 2005 5 Series. Their specs are quite similar. Bottom line, TL was priced like a 3 Series and presented like a 5 Series.
Love your M5 and what you have done with it but, like the TL, it's not for everyone.
Btw, also briefly considered G coupe and Mustang.
Last edited by MR1; 12-30-2011 at 12:32 AM.
12-30-2011, 01:18 AM
#3626
The Altima is firmly entrenched in the Camry, Sonata, Accord, Fusion, etc. segment while the Maxima is in the large, upscale FWD segment w/ the Avalon, Azera, Taurus, etc.
12-30-2011, 03:18 AM
#3627
"dominate" the FWD segment? in what way?
it outsells the camry now?
its the most powerful fwd car?
... you like it alot?
it outsells the camry now?
its the most powerful fwd car?
... you like it alot?
12-30-2011, 07:04 AM
#3628
Race Director
In Europe, the 3er is in the Compact Executive segment and the 5er is in the Executive segment.
Models like the Passat, Accord, i40 and Avensis are in the Family segment - so that's 2 levels down from the Executive segment.
The Euro equivalents of the USDM Passat, Accord, Sonata and Camry are smaller and a bit nicer, but they're still seen as family sedans.
Models like the Passat, Accord, i40 and Avensis are in the Family segment - so that's 2 levels down from the Executive segment.
The Euro equivalents of the USDM Passat, Accord, Sonata and Camry are smaller and a bit nicer, but they're still seen as family sedans.
12-30-2011, 08:47 AM
#3630
Moderator
I'm a little strange but I compared them back in late 2004 when I purchased my 05 TL. Matter of fact it went like this, parctical X3, impracticle, 328 coupe or sedan, practical TL, long shot, 528.
X3 had really cheap interior and didn't ride very well. 3 Series was to small and required expensive upgrades to look acceptable. TL hit the sweet spot on looks, features, size and price. 5 Series was good on size but again required expensive options to become acceptable. I could have whatever I wanted so the comparison wasn't that strange.
In my files I have road test of 3G TL and 2004 or 2005 5 Series. Their specs are quite similar. Bottom line, TL was priced like a 3 Series and presented like a 5 Series.
Love your M5 and what you have done with it but, like the TL, it's not for everyone.
Btw, also briefly considered G coupe and Mustang.
X3 had really cheap interior and didn't ride very well. 3 Series was to small and required expensive upgrades to look acceptable. TL hit the sweet spot on looks, features, size and price. 5 Series was good on size but again required expensive options to become acceptable. I could have whatever I wanted so the comparison wasn't that strange.
In my files I have road test of 3G TL and 2004 or 2005 5 Series. Their specs are quite similar. Bottom line, TL was priced like a 3 Series and presented like a 5 Series.
Love your M5 and what you have done with it but, like the TL, it's not for everyone.
Btw, also briefly considered G coupe and Mustang.
12-30-2011, 01:50 PM
#3631
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
I'm a Honda watcher/kinda fanboy from way back in the mid seventies. My opinion is that Honda has never really tried to take a direct aim at any segment but create their own niche.
Sometimes it has worked very well as when the Civic redefined the subcompact segment and dominated it for many years. The Accord did the same but with slightly less success I think. The Acura brand has been successful but not nearly as much as Honda.
Lots of people have been very vocal about what Honda/Acura should do to step up to this or that competitor. This makes for interesting conversation however I think Honda still marches to their own beat. Lately this approach does not seem to be working so well.
The new anticipated models again seem to disappoint many 'car' people. Again I think Honda is aiming at a segment just off of current mainstream where they have made magic in the past. Not sure it will work but I'm willing to wait and see without passing judgement prematurely. What the heck do I know? I was slow to adapt dvd's and mp3's.
I have purchased a number of Civics over the years but never pulled the trigger on an Accord. Seven years in, I love my TL.
Sometimes it has worked very well as when the Civic redefined the subcompact segment and dominated it for many years. The Accord did the same but with slightly less success I think. The Acura brand has been successful but not nearly as much as Honda.
Lots of people have been very vocal about what Honda/Acura should do to step up to this or that competitor. This makes for interesting conversation however I think Honda still marches to their own beat. Lately this approach does not seem to be working so well.
The new anticipated models again seem to disappoint many 'car' people. Again I think Honda is aiming at a segment just off of current mainstream where they have made magic in the past. Not sure it will work but I'm willing to wait and see without passing judgement prematurely. What the heck do I know? I was slow to adapt dvd's and mp3's.
I have purchased a number of Civics over the years but never pulled the trigger on an Accord. Seven years in, I love my TL.
Last edited by MR1; 12-30-2011 at 01:53 PM.
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Legend2TL (12-31-2011)
12-30-2011, 05:36 PM
#3632
Let's put it this way - the Euro Accord is to the USDM Accord what the Euro Passat is to the USDM Passat.
The Euro version being smaller and more luxurious, but still, the Euro Passat is not regarded as being in the Executive compact segment, even if it is cross-shopped.
12-30-2011, 07:32 PM
#3633
6G TLX-S
In Europe, BMW is considered to be a domestic brand, whereas Honda an import brand. In some cases, a European Honda carries an even higher price tag than a equivalent-class BMW.
That's exactly why Europe could get away with Honda NSX and Honda Legend, but not for North America.
12-31-2011, 05:21 AM
#3634
AZ Community Team
The first reference I already knew about but the second I had not read before.
Well, considering that Acura seems likely to discontinue the TSX in the States in favor of the ILX, I'd say there seems to be a problem.
It has always been seen as problem for Acura in having 3 similarly-sized sedans - having 3 sedans competing against the 3/5 segments isn't exactly an efficient or effective way of doing things, but as I had stated, it came to be b/c Honda was trying to assemble Acura's lineup in a less capital intensive manner than Mercedes/BMW and its Japanese rivals.
The Altima and Maxima switched segments over time (just like how the Taurus moved up a segment, being replaced by the Fusion).
The Altima is firmly entrenched in the Camry, Sonata, Accord, Fusion, etc. segment while the Maxima is in the large, upscale FWD segment w/ the Avalon, Azera, Taurus, etc.
[i][b]
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10015470-48.html
http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/09/...ing-acura.html
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10118216-48.html
And this is the cincher...
[i][b]
http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_ac...hast_consumer/
It has always been seen as problem for Acura in having 3 similarly-sized sedans - having 3 sedans competing against the 3/5 segments isn't exactly an efficient or effective way of doing things, but as I had stated, it came to be b/c Honda was trying to assemble Acura's lineup in a less capital intensive manner than Mercedes/BMW and its Japanese rivals.
The Altima and Maxima switched segments over time (just like how the Taurus moved up a segment, being replaced by the Fusion).
The Altima is firmly entrenched in the Camry, Sonata, Accord, Fusion, etc. segment while the Maxima is in the large, upscale FWD segment w/ the Avalon, Azera, Taurus, etc.
[i][b]
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10015470-48.html
http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/09/...ing-acura.html
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10118216-48.html
And this is the cincher...
[i][b]
http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_ac...hast_consumer/
12-31-2011, 07:05 AM
#3635
AZ Community Team
Did you even bother reading what I had previously posted?
Simply bringing over the Euro/JDM Accord and rebadging it as an Acura is cheapening out (as is the CSX), just as what Nissan did w/ the G20 (simply bringing over the Nissan Primera and sticking a diff. badge on it) or Toyota w/ the ES (simply sticking a diff. badge on the Camry Prominent/Vista).
And the Hyundai i40 and the Toyota Avensis are other models that are much better appointed than their American counterpart, and like the Euro Accord, are diff. cars - being a bit smaller and better appointed.
As for the AWD discussion, who cares?
There are plenty of in-depth discussions on auto boards about which AWD system is better - Honda's SH-AWD system is not the only one regarded to be at the top.
Simply bringing over the Euro/JDM Accord and rebadging it as an Acura is cheapening out (as is the CSX), just as what Nissan did w/ the G20 (simply bringing over the Nissan Primera and sticking a diff. badge on it) or Toyota w/ the ES (simply sticking a diff. badge on the Camry Prominent/Vista).
And the Hyundai i40 and the Toyota Avensis are other models that are much better appointed than their American counterpart, and like the Euro Accord, are diff. cars - being a bit smaller and better appointed.
As for the AWD discussion, who cares?
There are plenty of in-depth discussions on auto boards about which AWD system is better - Honda's SH-AWD system is not the only one regarded to be at the top.
You can call it cheapening out and I can call it efficiency. So what, the bottom line is that in the auto industry survival is by capitalizing on your platforms and making more profit per vehicle. If you can take a vehicle from one market and reaply it to another whether it be a G8 or TSX and get sales great. I've know a few folks who work for auto manufacturers (Audi, Ford, GM, ..). It's been happening for decades since Sloan pioneering the marketing and branding concepts at GM.
As for AWD discussion of who cares? Apparently BMW and MB for one. Both launched engineering and tooling efforts to incorporate AWD into their sedans (3/5 series and C/E/S classes). Not a cheap endeavor like adding bluetooth or nav, but a redesign of front suspension, transmission, and front chassis to accommodate the driveshafts and differentials.
Why was it done? The best guess would be to counter Audi and their escalating sales that took off in the 90's and 00's so your silly comment like "who cares" is pretty pointless.
As to Honda's system being better with torque/rotation speed control, the fact that Audi copied this approach in it's vectoring Quattro (2008) using step up gears and side plate clutches per rear wheel sorta proves my point that Honda in it's first continuous AWD system up'ed the bar.
And FWD/AWD has always been seen as being inferior and not "proper luxury" as a RWD-drive car.
There's a reason why Audi's prestige has lagged behind that of its German rivals and why it cannot command the prices of Mercedes or BMW (Audi slashed $5k off the price of the new A6 so it can better compete.)
It's also the reason why both Honda and Ford had plans for a RWD platform, as well as a V8 (another longstanding luxury pillar), but both abandoned the plans when it was determined that it was not financially feasible.
This is the same reason why GM is going forward w/ a RWD/V8 flagship despite the FWD/AWD XTS - since they want something that can compete against the S Class and they know that the XTS won't be seen as that.
When Cadillac has their entire RWD sedan lineup filled, the ATS, new CTS and RWD flagship, Cadillac will continue to pass by Lincoln and its FWD/AWD lineup.
Now, Audi "joins the club" in large part due to it being German (the whole European snobbery-thing), but even so, it lags behind Mercedes and BMW.
There's a reason why Audi's prestige has lagged behind that of its German rivals and why it cannot command the prices of Mercedes or BMW (Audi slashed $5k off the price of the new A6 so it can better compete.)
It's also the reason why both Honda and Ford had plans for a RWD platform, as well as a V8 (another longstanding luxury pillar), but both abandoned the plans when it was determined that it was not financially feasible.
This is the same reason why GM is going forward w/ a RWD/V8 flagship despite the FWD/AWD XTS - since they want something that can compete against the S Class and they know that the XTS won't be seen as that.
When Cadillac has their entire RWD sedan lineup filled, the ATS, new CTS and RWD flagship, Cadillac will continue to pass by Lincoln and its FWD/AWD lineup.
Now, Audi "joins the club" in large part due to it being German (the whole European snobbery-thing), but even so, it lags behind Mercedes and BMW.
For luxury class vehicles I would agree FWD is not in the same class as RWD, AWD I would not agree with seeing as how MB and BMW have added that to their lines to compete with Audi.
Audi getting to where they are today, 3rd place behind MB and BMW is pretty amazing considering where they were only 20 years ago. IMO, besides their AWD that caused BMW and MB to copy, they also raised the bar for luxurious interiors that caused even technic BMW to improve in this aspect. Add into that the use of AL chassis, R8/10, S and RS cars that compete well with BMW M models, and a spectacular LeMans racing program Audi has made more progress in two decades that BMW or MB.
To me the biggest problem with Audi has been reliability. I've watching a many Audi owners have numerous reliability and repair problems that plague their cars. That to me is one of their larger problems in holding them back.
If you one to believe Audi is a whole European snobbery thing, you can believe whatever you want. However the fact remains that Audi has transformed themselves into a major international auto maker that are take away alot of sales from BMW and MB.
And this coming from me, who won't even recommend a Audi to friends and neighbors due to reliability.
In Europe, the 3er is in the Compact Executive segment and the 5er is in the Executive segment.
Models like the Passat, Accord, i40 and Avensis are in the Family segment - so that's 2 levels down from the Executive segment.
The Euro equivalents of the USDM Passat, Accord, Sonata and Camry are smaller and a bit nicer, but they're still seen as family sedans.
In certain markets (such as Australia), you often get both (both Accords and the i40/i45-Sonata are sold down under).
Really, do you know much of anything about the auto industry?
Models like the Passat, Accord, i40 and Avensis are in the Family segment - so that's 2 levels down from the Executive segment.
The Euro equivalents of the USDM Passat, Accord, Sonata and Camry are smaller and a bit nicer, but they're still seen as family sedans.
In certain markets (such as Australia), you often get both (both Accords and the i40/i45-Sonata are sold down under).
Really, do you know much of anything about the auto industry?
it doesn't work that way and never has, try educating yourself. A current book would be the latest from Bob Lutz (former exec from GM who also worked at BMW in the 70's and help transform them). Highly opinionated, Lutz condemned GM bureaucrats who also thought the cars also fell into rigid categories.
The auto markets segments are various shades of gray, some lighter and some darker than others. It's still not something you can measure like a ruler as you describe in two levels down.
I've not been to Europe in a while but it's pretty apparent how unusual the cars are compared to the same models in the states. From what I've seen of the Euro Accord and Civic, they are much different in appointments and features/functions of their US counterparts. I'm guessing alot of this is for tax/registration purposes since larger vehicles get higher tax brackets in some countries.
If you think reuse done properly (think G8 or TSX and not Cimerron) is cheapening out, you don't know much about the auto business.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 12-31-2011 at 07:16 AM.
12-31-2011, 07:30 AM
#3636
AZ Community Team
The F10 5 series is slightly larger inside (>2" more front headroom) compared to a 4G TL so it does make it true
http://www.acura.com/tools/Competiti...31082&v1=33188
So I should have been more specific on what i meant by size.
And to say the 3 and 5 series are completed different is also wrong. The whole 3/5/7 series have typically dovetailed each other as stepping stones in BMW's marketing/platform approach for over over 3 decades.
However I will agree your statement that the 5 is more closer to the 7 than the 3.
http://www.acura.com/tools/Competiti...31082&v1=33188
So I should have been more specific on what i meant by size.
And to say the 3 and 5 series are completed different is also wrong. The whole 3/5/7 series have typically dovetailed each other as stepping stones in BMW's marketing/platform approach for over over 3 decades.
However I will agree your statement that the 5 is more closer to the 7 than the 3.
You can keep stating that, but it doesn't make it true.
The TL is longer than the F10 5 Series - 195.5" to 192.9".
And when the current gen TL came out, it was even bigger than the E60 5er (191.1") - that's a full 5".
The TSX is 185.6" - which makes it considerably bigger than the 3 Series (178.2").
And this is why Acura's lineup has been screwy - too many sedans similar in size.
Now they are.
The E60 5er drove and was in many ways a larger 3 Series, but w/ the F10 5er, BMW switched the 5 Series to a rendition of the platform underpinning the 7 Series, so now the 5 Series is a smaller 7er and drives more like a 7 than the 3er like it had done in the past.
The TL is longer than the F10 5 Series - 195.5" to 192.9".
And when the current gen TL came out, it was even bigger than the E60 5er (191.1") - that's a full 5".
The TSX is 185.6" - which makes it considerably bigger than the 3 Series (178.2").
And this is why Acura's lineup has been screwy - too many sedans similar in size.
Now they are.
The E60 5er drove and was in many ways a larger 3 Series, but w/ the F10 5er, BMW switched the 5 Series to a rendition of the platform underpinning the 7 Series, so now the 5 Series is a smaller 7er and drives more like a 7 than the 3er like it had done in the past.
12-31-2011, 07:35 AM
#3637
AZ Community Team
12-31-2011, 08:09 AM
#3638
AZ Community Team
+1
I've been so caught up in other postings that I forgot to read this. This sums up Acura and Honda very well with some wisdom of how Honda has targeted just off the mainstream. That captures the spirit of what Honda is (was?), it was really never about following the others. Honda is more often to follow their own way wheither it works out well or not. That goes for the 4 cylinder in the S2000, to the Ridgeline, to the finger-style cam followers of their F1 engines.
I've been so caught up in other postings that I forgot to read this. This sums up Acura and Honda very well with some wisdom of how Honda has targeted just off the mainstream. That captures the spirit of what Honda is (was?), it was really never about following the others. Honda is more often to follow their own way wheither it works out well or not. That goes for the 4 cylinder in the S2000, to the Ridgeline, to the finger-style cam followers of their F1 engines.
I'm a Honda watcher/kinda fanboy from way back in the mid seventies. My opinion is that Honda has never really tried to take a direct aim at any segment but create their own niche.
Sometimes it has worked very well as when the Civic redefined the subcompact segment and dominated it for many years. The Accord did the same but with slightly less success I think. The Acura brand has been successful but not nearly as much as Honda.
Lots of people have been very vocal about what Honda/Acura should do to step up to this or that competitor. This makes for interesting conversation however I think Honda still marches to their own beat. Lately this approach does not seem to be working so well.
The new anticipated models again seem to disappoint many 'car' people. Again I think Honda is aiming at a segment just off of current mainstream where they have made magic in the past. Not sure it will work but I'm willing to wait and see without passing judgement prematurely. What the heck do I know? I was slow to adapt dvd's and mp3's.
I have purchased a number of Civics over the years but never pulled the trigger on an Accord. Seven years in, I love my TL.
Sometimes it has worked very well as when the Civic redefined the subcompact segment and dominated it for many years. The Accord did the same but with slightly less success I think. The Acura brand has been successful but not nearly as much as Honda.
Lots of people have been very vocal about what Honda/Acura should do to step up to this or that competitor. This makes for interesting conversation however I think Honda still marches to their own beat. Lately this approach does not seem to be working so well.
The new anticipated models again seem to disappoint many 'car' people. Again I think Honda is aiming at a segment just off of current mainstream where they have made magic in the past. Not sure it will work but I'm willing to wait and see without passing judgement prematurely. What the heck do I know? I was slow to adapt dvd's and mp3's.
I have purchased a number of Civics over the years but never pulled the trigger on an Accord. Seven years in, I love my TL.
12-31-2011, 11:32 AM
#3639
The only way Acura sales can recover quickly is to import Euro Civic and Euro Accord diesel.
Diesel cars are slighlty expensive so Acura badge is more appropriate than Honda.
$30K starting price for Euro Civic diesel and $35K starting price for TSX diesel will make them competitive.
The return of VW to US market in big way has diesel very important factor. There is market for these cars. You cannot rely on hybrid alone.
Diesel cars are slighlty expensive so Acura badge is more appropriate than Honda.
$30K starting price for Euro Civic diesel and $35K starting price for TSX diesel will make them competitive.
The return of VW to US market in big way has diesel very important factor. There is market for these cars. You cannot rely on hybrid alone.
01-05-2012, 03:29 PM
#3640
You can call it cheapening out and I can call it efficiency. So what, the bottom line is that in the auto industry survival is by capitalizing on your platforms and making more profit per vehicle. If you can take a vehicle from one market and reaply it to another whether it be a G8 or TSX and get sales great. I've know a few folks who work for auto manufacturers (Audi, Ford, GM, ..). It's been happening for decades since Sloan pioneering the marketing and branding concepts at GM.
There's a reason why Honda had plans for a RWD platform and a V8 in their strategy to move upmarket, but they abandoned it b/c it was not deemed financially feasible for them.
Same goes for Lincoln.
5-6 yrs from now when Lincoln has fully revamped their FWD/AWD lineup and Cadillac has the RWD/AWD ATS, new CTS and RWD flagship, which of the 2 do you think will be considered more on par w/ Mercedes and BMW and which models do you think will be able to command higher prices?