dom

Motor Trend reviews the new Honda Tech.

http://www.motortrend.com/future/fut...preview_drive/

dom

And National post.

Like what I'm reading.

ttribe

Link?


From the MT Article - "Now if Acura can clean up its styling a bit..."

Yep.

TSX69

Honda's New Technology Put to the Test

Tokyo • In terms of North American content, the 42nd edition of the Tokyo Motor Show was a tad thin. However, that is not to say there was little going on. On the contrary, the sprawling show provided a ton of insight into how the world is about to unfold. Honda, a company that has been criticized for being slow to advance its powertrain technology, revealed where it is heading in the next few years, while the long-awaited Subaru/Toyota collaboration finally surfaced in road-going livery.

In Honda’s case, the technology was not only on display at the show, I had the opportunity to put it through its paces. The 1st is a range of new engines that combine direct injection with Honda’s iVTEC valve-lift system and variable cam phasing. The net result is more power and better economy in all cases. The unit up for testing was the 2.4-litre 4-cylinder. It puts out 181 horsepower and 177 pound-feet of torque while being fi5 ve per cent more fuel-efficient that its predecessor. On the track, this engine pulled strongly over a much broader range — Hondas typically have to be revved to access their twisting power.

The bigger surprise was found in Honda’s intention to shift from traditional automatics toward a range of continuously variable transmissions (CVTs). While I’m not a CVT fan, Honda’s design has 2 key features going for it. 1st, unlike most, launch is crisp because the engine’s torque is not reduced to prevent the CVT’s belt from slipping. This brings a significantly stronger tip-in response. More importantly, the shift logic is stepped (as in pre-programmed gears), which means it does not have that really annoying motorboating drone under hard acceleration.

The other engine that would serve Canada very well is an all-new 1.6L turbodiesel. This new engine produces the same output as the current 2.2L turbodiesel (140 hp and 250 lb-ft of torque) it is replacing without sacrificing the linearity and pull that defines the diesel engine. As an aside, driving a European Civic equipped with the 2.2L turbodiesel proved to be a truly rewarding experience — it has fresh looks to go along with the utility of its hatchback design. It would do well in Canada.

The 2nd new technology was a new electric version of Honda’s Super Handling All Wheel Drive (SH-AWD) system. This iteration system uses a 3.5L V6 that’s married to a 7-speed twin-clutch transmission to drive the front wheels, while the rear wheels are driven by 2 separate electric motors. During cornering, the outside electric motor drives that wheel faster. At the same time, the inner motor applies a negative torque — the slowing effect amplifies turn-in response. The net result is a faster-acting torque vectoring system. The beauty of the system is the manner in which it adds that prized ride-on-rails sensation through a corner. Through the test course, the turn-in proved to be as crisp as it was immediate.

This all-wheel-drive iteration is, in a word, superb. It not only hones the European Accord tester’s handling, it transforms it into a seriously quick ride. Credit goes to 2 important aspects. 1st, the new 3.5L V6 is good for 300-plus horsepower; the electric motors then chip in with another 27 hp each. Honda is not saying how much torque they contribute to the fun factor but, based on the low-end grunt, each has to contribute at least 150 lb-ft of torque.

The design is also capable of pulling away under electric power alone. The rear motors drive the car seamlessly until the driver stands on it — then look out. Even in the Accord tester it could almost be described as too much power. The 7-speed twin-clutch also adds to overall driveability — the shifts, which are initiated through paddle shifters, are blindingly quick, which adds to the overall responsiveness.

The engineers were coy about the size of the battery the new SH-AWD system uses, but it will have to be close to a 5 kilowatt/hour unit. The reason is twofold. 1st, there must be enough oomph to provide that delicious launch. More importantly, the battery must be large enough to support the SH-AWD functions when needed after said launch. This system is said to be the driving force behind the next-generation NSX. However, if this car were to remain true to its predecessor, it would mean a mid-mounted gasoline engine with the electric motors sitting up front.

Subaru showcased its new BRZ, the lightweight sports car it shares with Toyota. It is powered by Subaru’s traditional flat-4boxer engine and produces 197 hp and 151 lb-ft of torque. Power is relayed to the wheels through a choice of 6-speed manual or 6-speed manumatic transmission. Inside, the cabin is highlighted by its front sport bucket seats and a tachometer that takes centre stage in the instrument cluster — both speak to the BRZ’s sportier intentions. The layout is also very much 2+2 in nature. Rear-seat leg space is tight. Other anomalies? First, this is a rear-drive car.

When it lands in Canada, the BRZ’s introduction is going to pose a dilemma for Subaru given that the company stresses its advanced symmetrical all-wheel-drive system, which is standard across its lineup. Secondly, it is a stylistic orphan.

dom

Ooops, forgot the link. Thanks 69.

SSFTSX

They tested DI version of 2.4. but didnot say what transmission. with 6speed Auto and DI. It should reach 40mpg on freeway and 27 on city in real world. Slighlty better than new Toyota Camry.
Honda engines/transmission/aerodynamics usually beat Toyota for same technology.
Toyota/Lexus will never reach the performance/fuel economy/handling (car with better handling usually weighs more) of V6 TSX with 5speed auto in Lexus.

KillerG

"Honda" and "too much power" are unlikely bed fellows. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

Also, i thought the e-Sh-Awd prototype was an American Accord, not the European Accord (USDM TSX), and so it would have been a JDM Honda Inspire.

KillerG

new sh-article from sh-autoblog

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/07/w...sh-awd-system/

ttribe

Encouraging.

CarbonGray Earl

Pretty cool stuff.

I was never part of the V8 RWD crowd, but I did think innovation in Honda was a thing of the past. If they can put some of this out fairly soon (2-3 years?) I'd be pretty happy.

So to get this straight, the traditional Honda IMA is still upfront, and there are 2 motors in the rear providing ~50 ft/lbs each?

96 ft/lbs in the front and 2 x 52 ft/lbs in the rear? That's pretty cool...

Colin

Actually from what I've read, it's an all new version that has the electric motor in the transmission vs. on (or replacing) the flywheel.

TSX69

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...tml#more-96931

Ahead of the recent Tokyo Motor Show, Honda invited a group of journalists out to its Twin Ring Motegi race track facility for an information download on its future engines and transmissions, as well as a chance to get behind the wheel of some of the new products.

Unfortunately, seat time was too minimal for even a 1st-drive style piece of each of the vehicles present. Still, we thought we’d share our impressions of cars that ranged from high-tech prototypes to models we’ll never see.

2014 ACURA RL?

Just a single lap of a portion of the Motegi road course was all we were allotted in what might very well be the next-generation Acura RL. By all accounts a Honda Accord (both inside and out), it most certainly was not underneath. Rather than a conventional drivetrain, there was a new V6 hybrid engine (a 2 mode-system, not Honda’s current and outdated Integrated Motor Assist setup). But that’s not all. Powering the rear wheels are 2 electric motors (1 at each wheel), forming a new electric version of the Super Handling AWD system. Add to that a 7-speed dual-clutch transmission and Honda is promising serious performance, as well as 4-cylinder fuel economy with V8 power. Or as 1 Honda engineer commented, a 30% improvement over a current V6 engine.

The reality? In such a short burst it was hard to tell much of anything. Quick? Yes. Fast? Perhaps. Sadly there wasn’t enough time to gauge the new DCT unit either, although its certain to be a much appreciated addition to the lineup, as it’s the type of driver-focused transmission the Acura brand so desperately needs. With just 1 lap we focused on the handling and it was superb. Try and pinch off a corner too early and the car just rotates into place. Perhaps the most amazing feature is that rather than just controlling torque output by delivering the most power to the outside wheel while limiting output to the inside wheel, it actually slows the inside wheel, using the regenerative energy to then power the outside wheel.

In addition to all this, the car can operate on pure electric power at low speeds and for short distances. We found that an excessively light throttle wasn’t required to stay in the limit either.

A car equipped with the E SH-AWD system will go into production in 2013 says Honda.

In addition to this hybrid we also had the chance to get behind the wheel of a new plug-in hybrid 4-cylinder model. Another full-hybrid system it allows for an electric only drive range and again came disguised in Accord sheetmetal for our test. It does seem to freewheel a bit in the switchover from electric only to hybrid but at the same time makes Honda’s current IMA system (which we drove in the Fit Hybrid) feel as crude as it is. Generally, it’s smooth and easily powerful enough to lug around the Honda Accord chassis it was strapped to.

Of note, Honda claims this system will be the most efficient hybrid in the world, coming to market as a plug-in hybrid next year with a standard hybrid version available in a production model in 2013.

THE CVTS ARE COMING

The real focus on Honda’s new “Earth Dreams Technology” push, however, is the use of direct-injection and CVTs across the board. We had a chance to pilot a TSX model equipped with a new direct-injection 2.4-liter 4-cylinder and the CVT around the Motegi oval course. Power it most certainly isn’t lacking, although it does have an almost diesel sound to it at lower speeds.

Perhaps most important to those worried about Honda’s switch to the dreaded CVT is how nicely it performed. It’s 1 thing to drop throttle and watch it react with haste, but Honda’s new CVT actually responded quickly to even slight inputs thanks to what it calls “G-Design Shift”, a new program that ties together the shifting, throttle pressure and hydraulics.

A short drive on some public roads of the new Fit EV proved equally reassuring. Honda claims a slight range improvement over the Nissan Leaf, with 123 miles. Plus, charge timing has been cut in half. The car offers 3 drive modes (Eco, Normal and Sport) and even in the general setting it offers excellent power. Push sport and it feels seriously peppy.

We even had the chance to sample a few truly unique products, including the new N-Box and Brio.

KEI CARS AND HONDA’S NEW EMERGING MARKETS MACHINE

1 of our final drives of the day was a car Honda doesn’t sell here. Nor is it offered in Japan. In fact the Brio (it’s more than just a bad Italian pop, apparently), was designed by Honda as a low cost model specifically for India and China. Making 88-hp from a 1.2-liter iVTEC 4-cylinder it’s actually quick enough. Based on the Fit’s chassis, cost savings are most evident inside where it’s a throwback to the ‘90s.

And speaking of ’90s cars, it’s about two feet shorter in length than the 1996 to 2000 Civic hatchback and weighs just over 2,000 lbs – making it quite tossable.

Easily the worst part of the car is the sloppy electric steering. If Honda wants to build a reputation in emerging markets like it has in developed ones, this steering won’t do.

Our final spin of the day came behind the wheel of the N-Box, Honda’s new Kei car (a class of vehicle in Japan designated by engine size, 660 cc or less). With a new DOHC engine and CVT transmission fuel economy ca be as high as 53 mpg, although even on our turbocharged model acceleration was anemic beyond city speeds.

Looking downright funky, it’s almost 6 feet tall; a height that makes it look even more narrow than it is. Headroom can be compared to a cathedral, while overall space is incredible – proof that of Honda’s recent failings, making a huge interior out of a tiny exterior isn’t one of them.

Honda says it applied its minivan expertise to this new vehicle and that couldn’t be more true, with our test car even featuring the same power slide second row doors (like the Honda Odyssey). In fact, on the dash were the same buttons you’d expect to find in an Odyssey. And so while this might be a low powered car, it’s not necessarily priced like one.

With bench front seats and a steering wheel that’s more in-your-lap that we expect from Honda, the car’s quirky nature has somehow made driving a school bus fun. Considering the failure Honda has had lately in delivering niche products (take the CR-Z and CrossTour for example), we’d wager an N-Box with real 4-cylinder (something along the lines of a 1.5-liter) would be a hit in North America.

biker

Honda's always been known to be real good at drivetrain innovations but the issue lately has been exterior and sometimes interior design. The new RL and the rest of the lineup could have the best drivetrains in the world but if the thing that people see looks like or is priced wrong, the sales won't be there.

Legend2TL

^ The TL may be a problem but IMO the RL looks OK even the MMC.

biker

^ the looks are only OK to a very small portion of the consumer market and sales wise it is . Again, the drivetrain and even the interior will likely be very competitive but the exterior design and pricing will be the make or break issue in term of sales.

Legend2TL

^ I think the RL's biggest problem is marketing and prestige in that segment. That market space is owned by 5 series and E-class. Even the 6, GS and M don't really compete against them. Their sales are a fraction of the 5 and E.

It's literally a repeat of the NSX against the 911 and Vette, the NSX was never close to either in sales no matter how good it was in looks or performance.

Legend2TL

I was referring to how small the US diesel car market is, ~80K in 2010. Even if Honda could grab 10% it's only 8K cars a year. Hardly a game changer. In Europe it's a completely different market for diesels, in the US diesel cost more than premium most gas stations I see.

I'm glad to see Honda motors get DI, curious to the performance and fuel consumption improvements. I wonder if it was Honda working out all the kinks in getting long term reliability out of DI, those injectors put up in a very harsh environment and I imagine getting consistent repeatable operation out of 100K's of miles is not easy esspecuially with variable quality gas.

biker

I think Honda would be very happy with A6/M sales level for the RL.

biker

I think the initial announcement mentioned a 5% mileage improvement - not much for all the effort and expense. I guess the current K24 is just that good.

SSFTSX

There is even more powerfull diesel coming. 1.6L Diesel in Accord/TSX could potentially decrease weight by 500lbs.
2.0L EuroAccord is 300lbs lighter than 2.4L Euro Accord.
http://www.zigwheels.com/news-featur...veiled/10822/1
Honda engineers say that they are working on a more powerful 160PS version of the 1.6 litre i-DTEC engine with 349Nm of torque that will replace the current 2.2 litre diesel unit in Europe.

biker

^ There's no way Honda can cut 500lbs off the TSX - even a totally new model would not cut that much weight. The drivetrain may lose 100lbs but you will not see a TSX under 3000lbs this decade.

dom

^ light weight side mirrors.

KillerG

they might just kill it completely and replace it with the "ax2" which is smaller to start with. pounds lost.

Legend2TL

Agree, IIRC initial 2G RL monthly sales were about the same as current A6/M sales levels being ~1K. Nowadays its <100

Edward'TLS

Aluminum body just like the A6 and NSX.

Edward'TLS

That will need work; lots and lots and lots of hard work.

SSFTSX

There is 150 lbs difference between 2.0L and 2.4L EX Auto. but both are pretty old engines. Even if you linearly towards 1.6L it is already 300lbs reduction.

http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/accordsaloon/#comparator
Height 1440 1440 - - -
Length 4725 4725 - - -
Width 1840 1840 - - -
Fuel Tank Capacity (Litres) 65 65 - - -
Luggage Capacity (Seats Up) 460 460 - - -
Max. Loading Weight 428 428 - - -
Max. Towing Weight - Braked 1500 1600 - - -
Max. Towing Weight - Unbraked 500 500 - - -
Minimum Kerbweight 1532 1602


Newer 1.6L is the lightest engine in its class. I would expect several hundred pound weight reduction due engine/support/ new lighter materials.
even new Honda Civic SI with 2.4L litre is only 2800lbs. this shows Honda is after light weight and efficiency. 3000lb is doable with 1.6L engine.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

And watch the prices rise.....

Edward'TLS

Aluminum body was 1st used exclusively by the Audi A8 family back in 1997. Now it has trickle down to the lower-priced A6 family, with no significant increase in MSRP. The price will come down.

Honda is not known to build powerful engines. So the only choice for performance is to strip down the vehicle curb weights.

biker

You are making two assumptions that are unlikely to come true:

Weight loss is proportional to the size of the engine and that the TSX (if it survives the chopping block) would use the smaller 1.6l engine instead of the 2.2 (assuming they ever use the diesel at all).

biker

The chances of an aluminum platform TSX are even smaller than Honda making a V8.

SSFTSX

Next generation A-4 are will be extremely light weight and they are going to use 1.6 Diesel if not 1.4 diesel.
Honda has VW group in sight when they compare diesel.

I would expect next Euro Accord to downsize in diesel engine along with more light weight construction. There is tough fuel economy rules coming down. The problem with hybrid is they are still expensive and the add additional weight.



http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...00-pounds.html
2015 Audi A4 Set to Lose 300 Pounds
So we're heartened by a report on Autoblog today that suggests Audi will strip about 300 pounds out of the next-generation Audi A4, which is due in about 2015. Today's A4 sedan weighs anywhere from 3,500-3,700 pounds, depending on whether you get all-wheel drive. Although it carries its weight well, there's no denying it's fat for a compact-ish sedan.

The savings, reports AB, won't necessarily come from a big increase in the use of high-strength (high-tensile) steel. As costs come down, Audi will try to incorporate comparatively exotic materials like carbon fiber.

biker

^ Cutting 300 lbs off the fat 3700 lb A4 will be a lot easier than a 3300 lb TSX.

Professor

My 2011 TSX V6 is only about 400 lbs. less than my 2005 RL with SHAWD.

The RL has an aluminum hood and plenty spread around vs. the TSX steel body.

Acura could cut 600 lbs. out of the TSX by going to aluminum.

SSFTSX

It is 2.0T AWD Audi A4 that weighs 3700lbs. similar to V6 TSX.

The lightest A4 is 1.8TFSI (It is still light pressure turbo) without AWD. and it weighs 3100lbs.
http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/a...34#tabsection3

The lightest BMW 3 series diesel weighs 3100lbs from 2.0D but produce only 116bhp.

http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesand...calSpec&isPGA=

These cars already weighs 400 to 500lbs less than EuroAccord for similar price range in current form.



TSX weight 3470 with 5AT/Navigation.
Honda Europe is going with downsize engine for diesel across the line up. if they cant beat that 3100lbs figure from 1.6L diesel claimed to be lightest engine in its class in next generation let alone in current form they will not be able to sell any car in europe.

biker

^ you can't compare Euro spec models with US TSX since the US market requires certain level of features that add weight. In the US you won't find a sub 3200lb mid sized sedan in the luxury category for some time to come. You are also unlikely to chop off huge chunks (3-500lbs) at a time. The current trend of about 100 lbs (and only with at FMC) is more likely.

biker

Again, no it can't and the chances of an aluminum TSX are less than a V8.

Even this sub TSX model coming is likely to tip the scales at 3000lbs.

SSFTSX

Infact Euro Specification Accord has higher features than US TSX and it weighs not less than US TSX. Honda has same standard for Japan built models.
Infact Honda Inspire Asian Accord (Our USDM Accord has even higher specification model than US).
sub-tsx is not next generation car but more an extension of 2800lbs Civic SI.
V6 Camry is although not a luxury car but it weighs only 3300lbs. it shows the level of weight reduction going on.

MT are one of the most experienced people in testing thousands of car and no body among there testers believed that TSX with 1.6L is under 2.0L. this shows the level weight reduction even in current TSX. and this is the drive train going into EU.

biker

All this talk of diesels in the Honda lineup are meaningless for the US and especially the 1.6l version.

There's nothing in what Honda announced or the current trend has indicated that anything but the evolution of models with slight weight reductions (100 lb range) will take place. Also, any specially set up test drive for car rag writers may be quite different than what will show up in real life production models.

SSFTSX

New Toyota Camry despite having 6speed, more electronics and larger wheel base is 400lbs lighter than V6 TSX and its fuel economy even beats normal 4 cylinder Hyundai Sonata in real driving test.


Europe is going in downsizing. Honda is going to follow it. Honda simply dont have choice now but downsize the car and engines in big way.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11104053...nt-innovations
On the occassion of the BMW Group Innovation Day 2011 event in Munich, the premium automaker is showing off new technologies in the pursuit of maximum efficiency.

New lightweight construction techniques utilizing materials such as carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP), aluminum and other hybrid materials are replacing many components previously made of steel. These components include hoods, seat frames, steering columns, door shells, transmission subframes, axel drive shafts, pedal assemblies and wheels to name a few.

Full details in the press release below.

Read more: http://www.worldcarfans.com/11104053...#ixzz1gFwB5yFh



http://wot.motortrend.com/bmw-resear...ght-66993.html
BMW Developing Lightweight Springs, Brakes for Next-Gen Cars

Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/bmw-resear...#ixzz1gFy9hELv