Edward'TLS

A 280hp 3.5L-V6 TSX will definitely hurt the already slow-selling FWD TL, unless the MMC FWD TL has the 3.7L-V6 as base engine and V8 as option engine.

dom

No sense in putting 305HP to the front wheels.

(Cj)

With LSD maybe ? The FWD TL is current very good at alleviating torque steer. It's one of the best driving FWD sedans, but I'm not sure if it could handle the torque of the J37.

Edward'TLS

Yes, you're right. My oversight. And obviously the V8 won't be coming to the TL either.

Then the TL is stuck helplessly watching the 3.5L-V6 TSX stealing sales away from it.

vybzkartel

The TL sales will be like the RL's, and the TSX sales will be almost(bad economy?) like the TL's of '05, eventually. I'm talking monthly sale in 2005.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

It makes perfect sense if they are trying to position the TSX to be the old TL, while moving the TL to the 5-series level. Sure the TL in its current form can't compete directly with it, but it's going in that direction.

Edward'TLS

Not until the TL becomes a RWD sport sedan.

Xpditor

See the April 2004 Road and Track.

The 3G TL is almost identical in profile and size to the 5 series BMW and out performed it in every objective measurement except 60-0 braking. It did, however best it in 100-0 braking. The 5 series also had the Sport Package. Didn't help it.

The myth that FWD can't handle persists in the face of facts to the contrary.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^ Being RWD is the only way to allow big torque V8 as option engines to rival those from the true-luxury Germans, rather than being stuck either with <300 hp for the FWD or burdened by heavy and power robbing AWD for the >300 hp models.

VANDY

It sounds as though Acura is okay with the potential decline in TL sales by bringing out the V6 TSX. During the conference call on Wednesday they mentioned not wanting one car to dominate overall sales as the TL has and that by offering more models in the long run will help overall sales.
I have to say I find it funny people are complaining that the TSX is going to have a 280 horsepower V6. When the 09 TSX first came out all you heard was I can't believe they lowered the horsepower and kept the same 4 cylinder engine, now it's too much horsepower and it's going to hurt TL sales! Most people on Acurazine seem to hate the TL anyway so why does it matter? At least Acura is doing something with the TSX, almost all of our customers say they like the TSX but just wish it had more performance. In addition they don't want a car the size of the new TL or the price tag that comes with it.

dom

V6 TSX will do very well IMO.

TMQ

Care to show the link?

There's a reason that NSX and S2000 are RWD, not FWD.

TMQ

TSX needs to compete with the 3 series; with AWD and V6 as options this would be a great formula, at least take sales from Audi.

Let the TL go against the 5 (ha ha).

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Very well said.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Google's your best friend
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=1234
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=1232

There are also reasons why FD2 CTR is capable of running with NSX, FD RX7, Lan Evo, R34 GTR. Do you also need link for a video of this?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Same thing with how the 3G TL-S outperformed its main competitors on a track by a massive 2 seconds even though it's a slower car in a straight line.

Black Tire

I had to stop 1:41 into the vid. That guy made me sick.

Edward'TLS

That is the problem. The majority of the original people drag race their high powered cars on the streets and the highways, in a straight line. They don't go to race tracks on a daily basis.

So it means more to them if their cars will win traffic light drags during everyday driving, rather than winning when driving around in circles.

For a FWD car, you just can't dump lots of power onto the front wheels, unlike RWD cars which can handle almost massive dose of raw power.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol I think we already discussed that before...let's not go into it again...I believe we agreed to disagree...

Xpditor

And there are reasons why Porsches have engines in the rear and that Ferrari's are mostly midship. Everyone has their approach. That's doesn't mean everyone else's design is bad.

As mentioned, here are the two articles.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=1234
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=1232

Your attention is particularly directed to the "Download Data Panel" link on the first page of each.

If you print each out, you will find it interesting to overlay the profile and hold it up to the light. It's amazing how close they are to each other in shape and dimension.

Then, review the data to see what I have told you about the comparative performance. This testing was not head-to-head but each was tested separately by the same testers at the same track under the same conditions.

The one error I noticed is that the BMW shows a top speed of 150MPH and the TL is listed at 147MPH (estimated). Members here, on several threads concerning top speed, regularly report over 150MPH. I would guess their average reported top speed is 152 with some more, some less.

Both cars exhibited mild to moderate understeer with a note by the testers that, "In the slalom, the TL threads through the cones with utmost agility, giving the car a bit of on-throttle oversteer character, thanks to its rear suspension geometry. Around the skidpad, the TL exhibits more understeer behavior."

In spite of this objective, factual reporting by a magazine who has had a love affair with BMWs for years, I don't expect you or the other poo-pooers of FWD to change your mind. It's just human nature for people to hang on to their beliefs and they don't want to be confused by facts.

It's like the terrible torque-steer myth that "every FWD is plagued by". I can punch my TL off the line with hands off the wheel and it goes straight as an arrow. Yes, if I punch it going around a tight corner, the VSA and LSD will try and keep the car going straight or to get better traction on the spinning wheel(s) and you can feel it working through the steering wheel. This is not torque-steer in the traditional sense. If you want to feel that, drive a Maxima especially before the CVT transmission. I know. I had Maximas before my TL.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Great post Xpditor. I think people don't realise the underlying advantage of double wishbone front suspension - the kingpin inclination can be altered easily and if you increase it enough, the steering offset distance will be low enough that there's no moment arm to generate torque steer. For a car like the Maxima, with cheap strut front suspension, then you can't make the kingpin incline too much, otherwise, there will be too much lateral force transmitted to the body via the spring and shock, causing vibration and instability.

Fishy

You can consider the 4G TL as the "new RL" and as that, its doing amazingly well (even if its ugly as sin). The 3.5L V6 in the TSX would fit naturally in the lineup and would be a nice luxury, "new TL" upgrade from the V6 Accord.

A TSX Type-S rolls off the tongue very nicely and wouldn't need the SH-AWD, just less weight. If it weighed ~3300 and had 280HP then that would be a killer car. The TSX already spanks the competition on the race track and a V6 TSX would just suck the balls into the bodies of the bimmer drivers.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Where did you see the TSX spanking the competition on the race track?

Fishy

TSX owns the Mazda 6's and BMW 325's in the SCCA Touring Car championships.

Things are gonna get interesting this year as they've lowered the development costs and performance down to the "stock BMW 330i" level. I don't think the bimmers will be a problem for the TSX, the trouble will come from the subies and evo's newly reclassified down from the GT class.

dom

Will they be using the new TSX this year?

TMQ

These articles from Road and Track are from 2004, so it's a bit old. In straight line performance numbers BMW's 5 series sedans have seriously increased with the 535, and even the 528 is almost better than the 2004 530, with max torque available at 2750 rpm and a very flat torque curve.

About the agility of the car, while I don't deny that the 3rd gen TL is very good, you need to use the front wheels to steer and power. what that means is that the driver needs to be fully aware of what the front tires are doing at demanding situations. RWD is just a better set up. Yes the likes of MINI, GTI and Mazda3speed do quite well in terms of handling, but you could almost always improve if the set up is different.

Honda has probably done the best FWD sports sedan of all, and while not denying that, one can always wonder how it'll do with a RWD sedan platform? My point is about NSX and S2000 is that if Honda thinks the FWD can do better than RWD, then those cars wouldn't send power to the rear wheels.

About the TL vs. 5 series comparison - yes numbers are similar while price is different, RWD cars just feel more balanced. The feel of a car isn't something that always translates to numbers. With that said, the size of the 5 and TL means that it really makes little sense to take such cars to the track.

Lastly, I admit I don't know much about the races and the detailed rules that come with different races. I'd be all ears if you provide more details. Are the TSXs stock, engine wise vs. Mazda and BMWs? I think not. Is the weight of the car similar? Do the tracks favor FWD? There are many questions.

Lastly, I think V6 to the TSX is really the way to go. Just give it SHAWD and it'll be a great vehicle that can let performance minded people forget about the TL. The ones who want space and comfort could always get the TL FWD.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Ya, Fishy, it would be great if you can let us know more about those SCCA cars. I watched it a few times but I don't know the details.

TMQ yes ultimately RWD is the way to go. And IMO MR is the best. On the other hand, the Civic Type R, though a FWD, and with less power to weight ratio, is comparable to the NSX and is even faster than the S2000 on tracks. I guess part of the reason is the Civic is newer. If you shoot for over 300hp then I agree that RWD dominates FWD.

And yes, balance is certainly another advantage of RWD.

TMQ

OK it took a few tries in google. It's obvious that TSX doesn't use stock engine.

http://www.world-challenge.com/series.php?page=carfacts

Touring Car (TC): Cars up to 2.8-liters that are naturally aspirated are permitted. Forced induction permitted as if it came that way from the factory. The cars can be front-wheel, rear-wheel, or all-wheel drive. The cars must be able to seat four adults, and convertibles are not allowed. Class horsepower range is 240 - 290 bhp.

Fishy

Ummm, race cars don't use stock engines But everyone follows the same stock car modification rules and the facts are that a FWD NA 4-banger rules the roost. Under ~300 HP, FWD is the best platform for "stock car" racing.

Here's a better link:
http://www.realtimerl.com/content/ac...8cccb60fb4c4a2

I don't know what 2009/2010 will hold for this series, but it was getting boring with the same (Acura) winners so I look forward to the competition leveling rules change. I'll miss the weeping on the bimmerforums tho (some members race in that series).

There's the downmarket Koni series too, but I just can't watch Cobalts race.

TMQ

Good info to have. I hear the wishbone suspension really makes a difference.

Nevertheless, power to the rear wheels when the weight shifts back accelerating out of the corner, it's hard to argue against that.

From what I hear about races that run FWD against RWD vehicles, I hear that RWD cars have weight penalties to minimize the acceleration advantages and cornering speeds compared to the FWD cars.

Myxomatosis

oh come on, I've got a mkII GTi with 670hp at the front wheels, using the VR6 motor with twin turbos, runs right along side Enzo's.........oh yeah it's on Forza II (the video game) but games are just like real life right? Yes, I know over 300hp is a no no with fwd. To those who dont know, try getting 300+hp to the road and get around a corner with fwd, doesn't work.....nearly as well as rwd.

Question, do the Acura desigining and marketing teams EVER read what people on the net are saying? I know it's more marketing to the masses than to us folks, but one should think about brand loyalty when removing the soul of the company little by little over the years.

I'll tell ya, I drove an 08' TL, as a loaner, which btw was great, but when I got back in my 97' CL, I said "man, these cars aren't that much different, they feel like Acuras." In fact my buddy who drove with me to get my CL back, thought my car was nicer than the new TL, I dont, but I feel quite content with my CL and I dont feel like I need an 08' TL, I've got a car that has the same soul. The Legends have it, even the old tegs, all the TL's the RL's, however were supposed to be progressing towards more cars that have that soul, not cars with so much technology that they just dont have that feel.

To me, the perfect car for us enthusiasts would be a new RWD FI V6 CL MT. Would fill all those holes, we'd get speed, a proper drive line setup, luxury, style and a peppy, efficient motor. Just make that, and than you can make all the crappy cars you want(to acura execs). Oh and bring back the damn NSX!

Does an MDX feel like an Acura? hell no, what about an 09' TL does that feel like an Acura? (I honestly dont know yet).

chill_dog

^Perhaps that's it...there's what you (and most of the rest of us) want Acura to be, and then there's what Honda wants it to be.

phile

Yeah I look at older Acuras (and Hondas) with the thin A pillars and great visibility when you're behind the wheels and get a little nostalgic. Just little things like that. You look at the Integra, low to the ground, slim. And then the RSX...and the RSX looks like an SUV in comparison. Bloated and tall, just like what the rest of the lineup has become.

Costco

I will agree with you guys on one thing..... older Acuras were definitely a lot more fun to drive. Strangely, I enjoyed my Integra a bit more than my TL-S, though that could be attributed to a number of factors.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol blame the government for imposing strict safety standards.

Fishy

Heh, the "weight penalty" isn't added by the rules, rather its inherent in the RWD components. All else besides engine/drivetrain being equal, RWD cars are heavier than FWD cars.

And cars nowadays are getting just too big and heavy. Other than being a glorified Civic, the Canadian CSX Type-S is the sportiest Acura going.

Edward'TLS

Absolutely agreed. After all these years, I still missed the handling of my long-gone heavily modded Integra. A small car is always more nimble than a big sedan, except that the Integra didn't have the raw power to match the TL-S's speed.

(Cj)

Chicago - 02/11/2009


Good afternoon everyone and welcome.Before I begin, I'd like to tip my hat to the Chicago auto show for coming up with a creative option for press conferences at this difficult time in our industry. Two years ago, Acura embarked on a path to elevate the brand to new heights. We brought out a totally new MDX, the all-new RDX, followed last year by a groundbreaking TL and a new TSX. We're here today for the world debut of an exciting new Acura model.It's the first shot in a barrage of Acura product news that will see major improvements and enhancements this year to almost every sedan and SUV in the Acura lineup...The market may be slowing down - but Acura is not.We launched the second generation TSX this past year with the goal of keeping the original TSX' sporty traits -- while adding a higher level of luxury and refinement.And, judging by the popularity of the new TSX, we hit the mark.The second generation TSX set a number of sales records upon its introduction in the spring of 2008 and it continues to post monthly sales increases despite the challenging marketplace. The TSX was designed to appeal to 30-something entry-level luxury buyers looking for something fresh and edgier than the traditional options in this segment.Individuals with a unique, active and sometimes irreverent take on life as illustrated in our ongoing TV campaign.Take a look.Yes, the current TSX is an entry point into the premium segment of the market - but with a twist.With its 2.4 liter, 201 horsepower, i-VTEC engine it's quick, nimble and a blast to drive. While still achieving excellent fuel economy with 21 mpg in the city and 30 mpg on the highway.And Car and Driver magazine recognized its strengths saying the 2nd generation TSX "ranks among the industry's best front-drive handling machines."But - no surprise here - the really serious enthusiasts wanted more power to go with the car's outstanding handling.We heard them - and we're responding. A more powerful generation has arrived.Ladies and gentlemen, the all new 2010 Acura TSX V6.


Power comes from a 3.5 liter, aluminum alloy VTEC V6, which generates 280 horsepower giving the TSX more power for greater acceleration and increased performance. The new powertrain is complemented by a revised sports tuned suspension featuring exclusive wheels and tires that are one-inch larger than those found on the four-cylinder TSX.The brakes on this V6 model have also been upgraded to better match the enhanced performance potential of the car.Inside, you'll find the TSX V6 is loaded with standard luxury appointments like leather interior, power moonroof and 7-speaker audio system. And like the four-cylinder model, the V6 version is available with an optional Technology Package packed with leading edge electronics to make driving more efficient and enjoyable.Some of the features on the technology package include...


Voice-activated navigation system
Real-time traffic and weather information
And a10-speaker Acura/ELS premium surround sound audio system.


Naturally, the TSX V6 offers all of Acura's class-leading safety content such as the patented ACE body structure, Active Front Head Restraints and Vehicle Stability Assist with Traction Control. All these safety features are what should give the TSX a full Five-Star rating from NHTSA and make it a "Top Safety Pick" from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.By the way, Acura is the only brand, mainstream or luxury, to have every 2009 model recognized as a "Top Safety Pick" by the IIHS.


But it's on the road where you'll really feel the changes and enhancements made to this remarkable automobile.The V-6 model delivers a truly distinct driving experience compared to the four-cylinder model.The added power of the V6 is noticeable the instant you press the accelerator --- and the throatier exhaust note is right in character with the car's added performance.Basically, we've taken a great car and kicked it up a notch. The increased performance of the TSX V6 will allow us to compete even more aggressively with other sport sedans such as the BMW 3-series, Audi A4 and Lexus IS.We also believe it will fill the niche between the TSX four-cylinder and the larger and more luxurious TL attracting youthful driving enthusiasts to the Acura brand.Look for the TSX V-6 to hit dealerships this summerI think it's important to state in no uncertain terms that Acura is committed long-term to developing a robust product lineup...One that supports our efforts to move Acura into the premium luxury area.And the new TSX V6 you see is just one more example of that commitment.As I mentioned earlier, almost every product in our lineup - -- will see major improvements this year.And we'll be previewing an entirely new vehicle within a few months to further broaden our appeal and enhance our position in the marketplace.Our ongoing goal of becoming one of the top luxury automotive brands in the world has not changed.The current market situation is affecting everyone however Acura will continue to make progress in both the short and long term.We will continue to commit the resources and the effort necessary to build Acura market share here and around the world.The current economy has certainly thrown us and every other automotive manufacturer a curve.But at Acura, we will use this opportunity to learn...To adjust...To evolve...To improve...And when the market regains its footing - and it will - we will be a stronger, more vital company than ever before...Because we have what it takes to compete successfully in any kind of market.And if you need proof, I now invite you to come up and take a look at the new 2010 Acura TSX V6...The first of what will be an exciting and invigorating 2010 Acura product lineup.Thank you!

dom

^ Spoilers?

(Cj)