AZuser

Yeah. 2.0 isn't too good even if it's an entry level luxury/premium car.

2.4 for base and... old 3.0 V6 6MT for top model?

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

You never cease to amaze.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

you are really scaring me these days. do you eat much these days?

SSFTSX

It is proven fact. The BMW 3/Audi A4 that are faster/fuel efficient than EuroAccord not because they are aerodynamic but EuroAccord Type S is on average 200kg heavier with larger wheels setup than 4 cylinder diesel Germans.

Honda usually dont put 0-60 times in ads. but with Type-S diesel. they said right in the German commerical that it will 0-60 in 8.6 sec with 5.7 L/100 Km. It is the minimum performance that honda expect.


IS220D with similar engine power to Type S cannot deliver.

Current TSX was developed when Honda was rich firm. They made mistake by not offering diesel TSX as the car was designed around diesel foremost. and second not offering SH-AWD/6MT/6AT combo.
Instead resources were wasted on introducing 6AT in RL & TL as if 6AT will change the fortune of those two car.
does it matter whether RL has 5AT or 6AT. the people who can afford or want it. the fuel economy & performance is not there first priority.


Now Honda cannot afford another ground breaking design. All you can hope for is souped up Civic aka ILX.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Mods, this guy needs to go.

Costco

what guy?


Oh wait, you mean that guy I have on IGNORE

pttl

I hope he never goes. It is SO fawikin funny!

I know it can be maddening. But just sit back and take it for what it is...comedic genius!

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Same here. I occasionally check out what he says thought just for a laugh.

The guy has trolling down to a science.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I used to laugh so hard reading his posts, but it's not even funny now. It's like he's living in a completely different world or something.

biker

Colin

I don't think we need 4 sedans. My guess is that the TSX will finish it's 'normal' 5 year run in 2013. When this happens, I bet the Earth Dreams CVT will be ready and the ILX will get the 2.4+AT that the market will demand (once the TSX is gone). Maybe instead of a 3rd gen TSX, we'll get a coupe built off of the new global mid-sized chassis? Maybe it'll get a version of the eSH-AWD to differentiate it from the recently shown Accord Coupe? [/rambling]

TSX69

http://automotive.speedtv.com/articl...united-states/

At the 2012 Detroit Auto Show this week, Acura finally took the covers off a concept car that previews the replacement for its cherished NSX supercar.

Acura also took the opportunity to announce that the new NSX will go on sale within three years, but the big shocker was the announcement that the car is to be engineered by Honda R&D Americas and built at a special plant in central Ohio.

The original Acura NSX was built at Honda plants in Japan from 1990 to 2005.

Rest assured, the project is in safe hands as the man running Honda today, CEO Takanobu Ito, was one of the chief engineers of the original NSX and he’s determined that the new car will be done right. You’ll recall that Acura’s previous attempt at building an NSX successor as a powerful, front-engine GT failed miserably due to the automaker’s financial situation at the peak of the 2008 global financial crisis.

This time around, Acura will be staying true to the ethos of the original. That is, to seek performance through efficiency.

"Like the first NSX, we will again express high performance through engineering efficiency," Ito said. "In this new era, even as we focus on the fun to drive spirit of the NSX, I think a supercar must respond positively to environmental responsibilities."

In particular, engineers developing the car at Honda R&D Americas’ center in Raymond, Ohio, will focus on an extremely favorable power-to-weight ratio. They have chosen to stick with a V6 and lightweight, mid-engine platform, but they will be packing it with the latest hybrid technology and an all-wheel-drive system.

Utilizing a unique twin-motor electric drive setup with a bilateral torque adjustable control system, the special hybrid all-wheel-drive will be able to instantly generate negative or positive torque to the front wheels during cornering, Acura says.

Acura anticipates that the system, dubbed Sport Hybrid SH-AWD, will deliver handling performance unmatched by previous all-wheel-drive systems.

In addition to the handling benefits of the system, a powerful V6 engine with direct-injection and VTEC works together with a dual-clutch transmission integrated with a 3rd electric motor for powerful yet efficient acceleration.

Legend2TL

I'll leave you with two numbers on the GS and ES, sales numbers from October 2010 (thx TSX69)

GS 256
ES 4300

Not sure how much 2011's outside factors affect these but with a sales ratio of almost 17 to 1, I'm pretty certain alot of economies of sale are playing in but also product positioning and placement.

That's were I do not believe you've ever worked in the auto industry. You seem to have a FWD and reuse phobia. Everyone I know that's worked in the business have similar comments, they work toward requirements and reuse is extremely important. Reuse cuts down time to market, development time, production cost, SCM, risk, verification/validation,...

Add into that product placement and positioning, sometimes you place you're product into the middle of a particular class (ie Honda Odyssey 2G) and sometimes you don't (ie MB R-class and CLS class). This all falls back on a business plan for a particular model. That means market surveys, product positioning/comparisons, contentization, reuse, putting together IPT and NPI teams, getting funding, new technology introduction, requirements, future proofing (future regulations on emmission, safety, ...), RONI/RONA, getting vendors involved, deciding where to build,... that goes well beyond your obsession phobia with FWD and platform reuse. Again that's why i say you have not worked in the auto business.

It's fairly obvious to anyone who knows cars that the 3 series rules in it's class. But without having seen the finanical sheets or business plan you or I don't know why the exact reason they charge what they do, fairly simple but I would guess the fact they carry that class segment pretty well means they can shift the supply demand curve in their favor. I do know that BMW openly acknowledged the 3 generates the most total profit than all the other models, they mentioned that during the E90 introduction.

You can rant and rave all you want to about reuse of platforms at Lexus or Acura, but that attitude and philosophy doesn't work in the business. Lexus has done a phenomenal job with brand recognition and product line execution. The fact that their biggest sellers (ES, RX) are platform reuse and their biggest sellers does not diminish it.

Oh the last commonality of the people I know who've worked in the auto business, it's a very difficult work environment. High stress, long hours, slim margins, alot of anxiety, layoffs, sometimes low moral. Common complaint I've heard from people who worked in the 70's to the 00's. A former colleague said even driving any Audi he wanted on weekends couldn't make up for the long stressful hours (he wrote embedded S/W) so he went back to Alcatel.

Oh and your Cadillac ATS, it's chassis is rumored to be the Alpha platform for the next Camaro. So that platform development money is being spread across multiple vehicles and the Cadillac ATS team is most likely a IPT and the core platform is being developed by GM central engineering (similar to Acura approach). IIRC the only product team that does almost all of their engineering at GM is the Vette.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...ils_confirmed/

Legend2TL

^ Man can I ever ramble and babble on

Guy Legend

Acura sounds like it has a plan and is fixing perhaps its biggest problem - that its models are cannibalizing themselves.

The sedans they offer are far too close in size - less people are going to justify spending more money for the next model up. Why would anyone buy the RL when the TL is better in almost every aspect. Even the TSX is good enough size sedan for most people.

Acura is looking to better differentiate their sedans. The ILX is going to a fun compact car. The TSX needs to go. The TL should be shrunk down in size a bit (at least from an exterior stand point) while the RL's successor has to be larger and more powerful to clearly stand above the TL in Acura's sedan hierarchy.

Another note on the TSX - rumor is that the next Accord sedan will the same worldwide (no more seperate models for North America and Europe). Thus the TSX is almost guaranteed to be snuffed out.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Source?

SSFTSX

how do you know ILX is fun car for 2013?. You want to enlarge RL from 195inch. so it means it is going to be LS size.
and want to shrink 193inch TL. so it will be smaller than ES. You cannot shrink TL that much to make it smaller than next ES/GS.
next World Accord has to take 1.6L diesel engine and still provide performance.
This new civic is still 10% inefficient compared to current competiton. 10% in diesel context is closer to 10 mpg.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Dude, youre automotive alliances are all over the map.

YEH

Of course, only you would take the aspect that has least to do w/ the discussion at hand and run w/ it.

Who w/ any knowledge of the auto industry greater than the typical schlub doesn't know that the ES is by far the better seller than the GS for Lexus?

But so what? We were discussing whether such FWD-biasd cars can be competitors to the RWD BMWs and Mercedes of the world.

It's the GS that is in the comparisons w/ the 5 Series and E Class, not the ES.

Furthermore, despite being a mid-sizer (w/ more interior room than the GS), the ES is priced one segment lower (priced in the compact segment).

It's the very reason why the avg. transaction price for Lexus severely lags behind Mercedes and BMW and why it is closer to Acura's than the RWD Germans.


How many times do I have to say that I'm not arguing that there isn't a business rationale for FWD luxury models?

Of course there is a business case for that, but that's a totally diff. discussion from saying that such FWD models can compete head to head w/ the RWD Mercedes and BMWs, esp. if they aren't a German brand.

Let me know when a FWD-biased luxury sedan isn't sold at a "discount", much less lead the RWD sedans of similar size in price.

There's a reason why auto snobs have long made derogatory remarks about the ES being a "Camry w/ a Lexus badge", the MKS a Taurus w/ a Lincoln badge, the TL an Accord w/ an Acura badge, etc.

There's a reason why GM decided that the FWD XTS was not going to be good enough to be seen as proper Cadillac flagship that can take on the LS460 (nevermind the S Class) and that they had better pony up the billion+ to develop a RWD flagship if they were serious about bringing Cadillac back to being "the standard of the world."

It's also the same reason why Audi, despite the new A6 getting great reviews, lopped $5K off the price so that it could better compete against the E Class and 5 Series; despite being German, even Audi still has to compete on price when it comes to competing against Mercedes and BMW.

Really, this is not a very difficult concept, but not surprisingly, one that hardcore and deluded Acura and Lincoln fans have a hard time grasping/accepting.

SSFTSX

That $42K Audi A6 has CVT transmission (not that advanced 8speed), It does not include 4 year free maintainance and it is FWD. (remember FWD alawys cost less than RWD). So it is basically low power 211bhp decontented sedan for fuel efficiency purpose.

Legend2TL

Here are the October 2011 sales number for the 3 and 5 series.

3 series 7748
5 series 5044

A ratio of ~1.5, something that falls in line with what you'd expect between the two class of vehicles. That is very different from the ES/GS ratio which shows the ES was clearly designed and developed well, while the GS not so. The 5/E segment is a really tough class to compete in. That to me is where the prestige factor starts but also consider that LS sells ~1K/month (about the same as the S and 7) so Lexus does get it right with both platform reuse and non-reuse.

My point was very simple, you had a problem with the reuse of the Camry platform and I was showing it is at least achieving respectable sales numbers. Probably generating some decent margin for Toyota, with it's reuse and volume. That's why automakers do the marketing surveys and product position/placement. A few posting ago you pointed out your criticism of platform reuse at Toyota, that was my point.

In terms of the FWD for luxury I already posted on that in posting #1265

"For luxury class vehicles I would agree FWD is not in the same class as RWD, AWD I would not agree with seeing as how MB and BMW have added that to their lines to compete with Audi."

Legend2TL

IIRC back in the late 90's Cadillac had a interesting problem, as every year went by the average age of their customers would increase ~6-8 months. Literally Cadillac's customer base was dying off slowly. So a group of Cadillac senior manager charted a new vision for them, that was the change over back to RWD. Just before then in the 90's Cadillac was going FWD along with the majority of GM.

This same group of Cadillac managers also started a new vision of sport oriented RWD cars which would redirect their customer base. The Catera was a start which was a reuse of the Opel platform, that would change with the next gen purpose built Sigma platform used for the STS and CTS.

It was a brilliant move, I though Cadillac would die off like Olds but they pulled it off. I suspect the ATS will do as well as the CTS but somehow I doubt the flagship will compete with the S/7/LS group. I could be wrong again but Cadillac prestige only goes so far in that customer segment.

JAB00

The ILX has the potential to be a good seller. It's a good looking car. Many of those recently graduating from college or young professionals will be attracted to this car. In my opinion they should still keep the TSX. They should just beef it up so it replaces the TL in it's category. It should come standard with a V6 and the interior material and amenities should get an upgrade. The TL can remain the same size. It will compete with the 5 series and G in terms of amenities but will be $5-10K cheaper. The new RL will be competing with the big boys (LS, S, 7 and A8). If the new RL can look like the ILX only in a bigger body, that thing would be a hit. I would consider upgrading to it i 2-3 years.

That would be the smartest thing.

YEH

Uhm, that's pretty much my whole point about FWD luxury sedans.


The LS is also $20k less than the S Class.

What was there to develop about the ES? Just tack on slightly diff. sheetmetal and put in some leather and wood trim.

Jack up the price of the ES to GS levels and we would see just about everyone abandoning it for Germans; again, the ES sells relatively well b/c it's a mid-sizer for the price of a compact and doesn't come anywhere close to the prestige of the RWD mid-size luxury sedans.


Again, I had already stated that there is a business model for FWD, but that was not the issue at hand.

You have tried to argue that FWD luxury sedans which share platforms w/ their mainstream counterparts could be a serious competitor to the tier 1 luxury brands like Mercedes and BMW.

You have repeatedly failed to show that and instead, keep changing the argument.

Again, let me know when a FWD-biased luxury sedan commands a premium over its RWD competitors instead of being sold at a discount.

VTEC Racer

Aren't many Audi's based on FWD VW's?

Legend2TL

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...ns-vehicle.pdf

Here's the A6 competing with mostly RWD sedans all within the same price range. Base price of A6 is only $1K less than a 535, so most people would hardly call $2% a discount. To me 10% is a discount.

IN a older C&D test the A4 is clearly the most expensive of the 4 models. Although they didn't use a BMW 330i which would have been more fair.

So this proves the pricing of a FWD/AWD premium luxury (Audi) cars can be on par with it's RWD luxury competition (BMW, MB).

Legend2TL

http://www.roadandtrack.com/var/ezfl...5eadd8a095.pdf

More current posting, but here a Audi S4 is considerably more money than it's 335i equivalent (RS4 equiv. M3). Here the S4 costs ~$5K more than the 335 both in list price.

S4 is based on a A4 FWD platform
335i is based on the 3 series RWD platform

So I once again proved myself correct and didn't have to resort to bold typesetting

CarbonGray Earl

FWIW, the 2.4 and Earth Dreams CVT were tested here. Sounds like a nice combo....

http://www.autobytel.com/honda/coupe...gies-108733/3/

Still, 181 hp/177 lb feet of torque seems really low. Qualitatively, it seems this reviewer liked the engine/transmission combo, but its difficult to win the magazine racers over with that sort of number.

Colin

That is true, but if it performs strongly, it could provide the 'proper' magazine number to offset that. If this feels as good as they're saying, it would go a long way to vindicating Honda for entirely skipping the cost of a 'mere' 6AT for 4 cylinder cars. They've certainly taken a beating for the continued use of the 5AT over the last few years but it seems like they've been busy behind the scenes and not 'resting on their laurels' as so many have been stating as if it were fact.

Professor

No replacement for displacement.

CarbonGray Earl

I've always kinda thought that they were going to push CVTs as an infinitely variable ratio is ideal for the type of high-revving, high and narrow powerband engines Honda likes to put out. But it never came to fruition until now. Sounds interesting.

The anecdotal reviews also makes me wonder if these CVTs can not only make the case against a 6at, but the DSG style automanuals. Not holding my breath or anything, but it would be interesting.

ttribe

Near as I can tell, it was being stated based on the available evidence.

This.

KillerG

sadly it seems like honda's new strategy is to underwhelm us with performance and leave us salivating with middle-of-the-pack gas mileage...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Officially, the 181/177lbft numbers are not the actual figures. Honda also mentioned "AT LEAST" when they bring up those numbers. So it's possible that the actualy numbers are 200hp/190lbft? Of course, it's also possible that they are the numbers are 182hp/178lbft. Still 178lbft is a noticeable improvement.

smarty666

Actually, Legend did school you on some examples where your logic is flawed and filled with stupidity. Hey Einstein, did you ever think that maybe MB and BMW have those vehicles priced too high? No, of course not, nothing they do can ever be wrong.

BTW - the ES sells for $38-$43k, some even top $44k with the ultra luxury package. Show me a compact car that sells in the low $40k. Plus, prestige is subjective. I haven't met anyone yet that didn't think the FWD Lexus and Audi vehicles that are sold had any less prestige than the RWD BMW and MBs. If you think that, then you better stop sipping the Koolaid. Most don't even know there is a drive-train difference. Still, your comparing a FWD mid-size ELLS to a RWD mid-size LS which is just crazy. They don't even compete with each other and were designed for two different segments/purposes. Plus, a FWD-Based luxury sedan will never command a premium over RWD NON-competitors b/c RWD/AWD always costs more and there is no segment where they compete, duh! You failed to show your point and keep talking in delusions of grandeur. At least it is comical to read.

Colin

Many years ago when CVTs were first being used, I recall a van Dorne (I think) representative saying there was no upper limit on the power handling capacity of these, and that yes, they could theoretically put F1 power levels to the ground. IMO, it must only be in theory since they've never been tried on anything with a lot of power, probably the Nissan's 245hp are the most we've seen in general practice. So maybe they could do it, but it's not economical and I'm guessing this limitation is the reason for DCTs in higher power applications

Legend2TL

^ Williams revised one of their FW15 F1 cars with a CVT that was jointly developed with a Dutch transmission company. It was banned before they could ever race it.

F23A4

Actually the most powerful motor for a Nissan CVT is the Maxima's 290hp/261lb-ft VQ. Maybe the lower powered VQs being used in conjunction with the CVT has something to do with the AWD drivetrain. But, I'm just speculating on that one.

Personally, I just don't like the feel of the CVT and while I have no proof, I honestly think it saps power terribly.

Colin

Ooops, no youtube at work, but the dutch company was Van Doorne and the one I was thinking about. Too bad it was banned, it might have pushed development further, and faster.

Nissan is using a different technique for it's CVT than Honda, maybe this leads to their greater torque capacity? (yes, I had to look at 'how it works' for that info) Like you, my feet are firmly in the 'skeptic' mode on CVT as well. However, if they can build on the promise of infinite ratios, while allowing for 'normal' revving at the drivers choice (assumes the driver is willing to trade a few mpgs for it) I could see where it could make a lot of sense.

Then, if they incorporate the IMA into the CVT, they could use the electric motor to power you off the line, decouple the gas engine, take maximum advantage of the IMA torque and (theoretically) reduce the shock on the CVT belt(s) when the stresses are the highest. So far, those that have driven it have been pretty positive so I'm cautiously optimistic.

Legend2TL

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/05/0...nsmission-cvt/

The company was DAF who I believe bought and own Van Doorne.