Is everyone ready for the Type S Concept? (Reveal Pics Page 5)
07-31-2020, 09:12 AM
#2482
iWhine S/C 6MT TL
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07-31-2020, 09:20 AM
#2483
tehLEGOman
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
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Mr. Ikeda, if you're here and you're looking for feedback about everyone's reactions to power numbers, I want you to send a pair of TLXs to Germany to traverse that famous track. I personally just want to see what kind of time it can put down compared to a type R.
07-31-2020, 09:23 AM
#2484
tehLEGOman
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Oh and that acura cake! wtf?! I just burst out loud laffing. [laughing]
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Midnight Mystery (08-02-2020)
07-31-2020, 10:52 AM
#2485
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
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That sets a low threshold easy target. Base 4 cylinder BMW is about 5.2 to 60MPH.
07-31-2020, 11:26 AM
#2486
Instructor
08-01-2020, 02:57 PM
#2488
Senior Moderator
08-02-2020, 02:20 AM
#2489
6 Forward 1 Back
08-02-2020, 11:29 AM
#2491
Honestly, if you’re looking for a car to accelerate as fast as a BMW, you need to buy something German. It’s not that Acuras are slow per se, it’s just that the Germans are very quick for what they are. If outright speed is what you’re looking for, you chose the wrong brand. These cars just have to be fast enough not to be a dealbreaker. Acura knows their target demographic, and what they want is “good enough” for a lower price, not “as good” or “better” for the same price. That’s something that has become painfully clear to me over the past decade.
Last edited by fiatlux; 08-02-2020 at 11:34 AM.
08-02-2020, 12:52 PM
#2492
Advanced
I'm out on the TLX-S, but I hope the MDX-S is great. We love our 14 MDX, and my wife wants to keep it a long time. But, if my work won't be flexible on my vehicle needing to be 7 years old or newer, come 2023 we might be upgrading the MDX as I don't expect any new manual sport sedans to appear, so I'll be keeping my 2015 S4 6MT as long as possible.
08-02-2020, 01:35 PM
#2493
Null and proud of it
I guess you won’t be a buyer then. The 2.0T will get the same powertrain as the 3G RDX. That car does 0-60 in 6.4-6.6. The TLX would need to be light enough to shave off over a full second just to keep pace, as a base 330i will do it in 5.2-5.4.
Honestly, if you’re looking for a car to accelerate as fast as a BMW, you need to buy something German. It’s not that Acuras are slow per se, it’s just that the Germans are very quick for what they are. If outright speed is what you’re looking for, you chose the wrong brand. These cars just have to be fast enough not to be a dealbreaker. Acura knows their target demographic, and what they want is “good enough” for a lower price, not “as good” or “better” for the same price. That’s something that has become painfully clear to me over the past decade.
Honestly, if you’re looking for a car to accelerate as fast as a BMW, you need to buy something German. It’s not that Acuras are slow per se, it’s just that the Germans are very quick for what they are. If outright speed is what you’re looking for, you chose the wrong brand. These cars just have to be fast enough not to be a dealbreaker. Acura knows their target demographic, and what they want is “good enough” for a lower price, not “as good” or “better” for the same price. That’s something that has become painfully clear to me over the past decade.
Sounds about right to me.
But when has Acura ever surpassed the Gerthes in performance?
08-02-2020, 03:13 PM
#2494
The 3G TL was faster than the G35 and 330i of the time. So for about 4 years between 2004 and 2008, until the E90 335i came out. That seems more and more like the exception these days. I'll admit that when Ikeda talked about Acura being back, I took it to mean that they're going back to the mid-2000s when they built cars that were actually competitive with their rivals. If anyone is wondering why I'm so down on the car now, it's because it's starting to sound more and more like it's going to compete based on price, not on performance. It's "value luxury" all over again, except this time it's "value performance". I would love to be wrong, but with so many people already playing the "I don't care if it's slower, it'll be cheaper and more affordable than the competition" card, 2005 is starting to look like a much different time.
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08-02-2020, 03:29 PM
#2495
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
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The 3G TL was faster than the G35 and 330i of the time. So for about 4 years between 2004 and 2008, until the E90 335i came out. That seems more and more like the exception these days. I'll admit that when Ikeda talked about Acura being back, I took it to mean that they're going back to the mid-2000s when they built cars that were actually competitive with their rivals. If anyone is wondering why I'm so down on the car now, it's because it's starting to sound more and more like it's going to compete based on price, not on performance. It's "value luxury" all over again, except this time it's "value performance". I would love to be wrong, but with so many people already playing the "I don't care if it's slower, it'll be cheaper and more affordable than the competition" card, 2005 is starting to look like a much different time.
Don't really know how a 330 AT would do, might give a nod to the MT TL
08-03-2020, 06:39 AM
#2496
AZ Community Team
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04WDPSeDaN (08-04-2020)
08-04-2020, 09:37 AM
#2498
Three Wheelin'
Here's How the 2021 Acura TLX Type S Compares to the BMW M340i and Audi S4
https://www.thedrive.com/news/35231/...0i-and-audi-s4
08-04-2020, 09:46 AM
#2499
Burning Brakes
Here's How the 2021 Acura TLX Type S Compares to the BMW M340i and Audi S4
https://www.thedrive.com/news/35231/...0i-and-audi-s4I honestly can't take any comparison serious on a vehicle that hasn't been on the street yet against two vehicles that are on pavement now. Comparing paper to paper doesn't do anything.
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justnspace (08-04-2020)
08-04-2020, 09:50 AM
#2500
Safety Car
So looks like some big unknowns that could make a difference: weight, price, and of course the real world performance numbers.
Didn't know the M340i and the S4 are that heavy....essentially 3900-4000lbs.
Didn't know the M340i and the S4 are that heavy....essentially 3900-4000lbs.
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08-04-2020, 09:55 AM
#2502
Lots of theories for why Japanese cars tend to weight less. Some say it's a carryover from post-WW2 Japan where materials like steel were in short supply, so they had to use less of it in their cars (e.g. thinner sheet metal, etc.) Some say it's because it's a vestige from the 280hp limits of the 90s that forced automakers to make their cars lighter if they wanted to make them faster. And some say it's related to the Japanese cultural desire to do more with less in the name of efficiency and simplicity. Whatever the reason is, it does seem to be the rule rather than the exception, and IMO is one of the reasons why German cars tend to feel more "solid" and "substantial" than their Japanese counterparts.
Last edited by fiatlux; 08-04-2020 at 10:00 AM.
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08-04-2020, 10:01 AM
#2503
Safety Car
But yeah the TLX-S will likely be in the similar weight category....~3800lbs
I wonder if/where they will take things learned from the NSX project to implement in the TLX-S? Maybe they'll be able to save weight without sacraficing luxury comforts too much.....guess we'll see
08-04-2020, 10:10 AM
#2504
I think they'll take the lessons they learned from the RDX.
Because the RDX is the first mass produced car to use their new high strength chassis. and people are complaining of road noise in the new RDX, meaning they might load the TLX with sound deadening material to get it closer to the germans in terms of refinement
Because the RDX is the first mass produced car to use their new high strength chassis. and people are complaining of road noise in the new RDX, meaning they might load the TLX with sound deadening material to get it closer to the germans in terms of refinement
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Shadow2056 (08-04-2020)
08-04-2020, 10:12 AM
#2505
We shall see. According to RDX owners, the 3G appears to have taken a step back in the NVH department, so maybe the 1G TLX is more of an exception and not a sign of things to come. Honestly, that was one of the things that drew me to the TLX; unlike previous Acura’s I’ve driven, this one actually is as quiet and refined as a Lexus.
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08-04-2020, 10:14 AM
#2506
Safety Car
I think they'll take the lessons they learned from the RDX.
Because the RDX is the first mass produced car to use their new high strength chassis. and people are complaining of road noise in the new RDX, meaning they might load the TLX with sound deadening material to get it closer to the germans in terms of refinement
Because the RDX is the first mass produced car to use their new high strength chassis. and people are complaining of road noise in the new RDX, meaning they might load the TLX with sound deadening material to get it closer to the germans in terms of refinement
Could Honda also be looking at something that Toyota is doing with the Supra? Where you introduce the first model year as only a baseline and then step up from there....aka, they didn't squeeze everything they can out of that turbo 6 and so they leave room for improvement in future year iterations/improvements??
08-04-2020, 10:16 AM
#2507
That would make sense. RDX has been a big success and I assume they are learning from customer feedback and improve even more with the TLX-S.
Could Honda also be looking at something that Toyota is doing with the Supra? Where you introduce the first model year as only a baseline and then step up from there....aka, they didn't squeeze everything they can out of that turbo 6 and so they leave room for improvement in future year iterations/improvements??
Could Honda also be looking at something that Toyota is doing with the Supra? Where you introduce the first model year as only a baseline and then step up from there....aka, they didn't squeeze everything they can out of that turbo 6 and so they leave room for improvement in future year iterations/improvements??
it's not just the supra that is doing it.
if you think about it, it's a smart way to always increase sales.
before this trend, you would see a huge influx of sales at the beginning of model release, then slowly dies down throughout the course of the cars life
Last edited by justnspace; 08-04-2020 at 10:19 AM.
08-04-2020, 10:21 AM
#2508
Safety Car
We shall see. According to RDX owners, the 3G appears to have taken a step back in the NVH department, so maybe the 1G TLX is more of an exception and not a sign of things to come. Honestly, that was one of the things that drew me to the TLX; unlike previous Acura’s I’ve driven, this one actually is as quiet and refined as a Lexus.
I assume a sedan platform should also naturally be better...since you have more insulation in the interior with a separated trunk/cargo area vs a SUV/crossover where you have the entire back area that is open for noise exposure/etc.
that is the trend right now. release car, then the following year, release higher output car.
it's not just the supra that is doing it.
if you think about it, it's a smart way to always increase sales.
before this trend, you would see a huge influx of sales at the beginning of model release, then slowly dies down throughout the course of the cars life
it's not just the supra that is doing it.
if you think about it, it's a smart way to always increase sales.
before this trend, you would see a huge influx of sales at the beginning of model release, then slowly dies down throughout the course of the cars life
It will test your ability to practice patience....and delayed gratification
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justnspace (08-04-2020)
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08-04-2020, 10:30 AM
#2510
that is the trend right now. release car, then the following year, release higher output car.
it's not just the supra that is doing it.
if you think about it, it's a smart way to always increase sales.
before this trend, you would see a huge influx of sales at the beginning of model release, then slowly dies down throughout the course of the cars life
it's not just the supra that is doing it.
if you think about it, it's a smart way to always increase sales.
before this trend, you would see a huge influx of sales at the beginning of model release, then slowly dies down throughout the course of the cars life
08-04-2020, 11:10 AM
#2512
AZ Community Team
Although most new model vehicles tend to come in weighting more than the previous generation there are a few things that will help the 2G TLX in weight.
It'll have a new motor whose weight is TBD. The new 10AT weights less than the previous ZF 9AT.
And will use aluminum in the hood, strut towers, front bumper and fenders.
Having the front DWB may add some weight with the upper control arm config. Curious if they'll ue aluminum for the control arms.
Curious what'll the 2G TLX will weight, there's always that safety push which tends to add more structure in doors and passenger area for impact management.
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08-04-2020, 11:11 AM
#2513
Safety Car
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justnspace (08-04-2020)
08-04-2020, 11:31 AM
#2514
+1, yeah just click-bait for interest.
Although most new model vehicles tend to come in weighting more than the previous generation there are a few things that will help the 2G TLX in weight.
It'll have a new motor whose weight is TBD. The new 10AT weights less than the previous ZF 9AT.
And will use aluminum in the hood, strut towers, front bumper and fenders.
Having the front DWB may add some weight with the upper control arm config. Curious if they'll ue aluminum for the control arms.
Curious what'll the 2G TLX will weight, there's always that safety push which tends to add more structure in doors and passenger area for impact management.
Although most new model vehicles tend to come in weighting more than the previous generation there are a few things that will help the 2G TLX in weight.
It'll have a new motor whose weight is TBD. The new 10AT weights less than the previous ZF 9AT.
And will use aluminum in the hood, strut towers, front bumper and fenders.
Having the front DWB may add some weight with the upper control arm config. Curious if they'll ue aluminum for the control arms.
Curious what'll the 2G TLX will weight, there's always that safety push which tends to add more structure in doors and passenger area for impact management.
08-04-2020, 11:32 AM
#2515
iWhine S/C 6MT TL
iTrader: (1)
+1, yeah just click-bait for interest.
Although most new model vehicles tend to come in weighting more than the previous generation there are a few things that will help the 2G TLX in weight.
It'll have a new motor whose weight is TBD. The new 10AT weights less than the previous ZF 9AT.
And will use aluminum in the hood, strut towers, front bumper and fenders.
Having the front DWB may add some weight with the upper control arm config. Curious if they'll ue aluminum for the control arms.
Curious what'll the 2G TLX will weight, there's always that safety push which tends to add more structure in doors and passenger area for impact management.
Although most new model vehicles tend to come in weighting more than the previous generation there are a few things that will help the 2G TLX in weight.
It'll have a new motor whose weight is TBD. The new 10AT weights less than the previous ZF 9AT.
And will use aluminum in the hood, strut towers, front bumper and fenders.
Having the front DWB may add some weight with the upper control arm config. Curious if they'll ue aluminum for the control arms.
Curious what'll the 2G TLX will weight, there's always that safety push which tends to add more structure in doors and passenger area for impact management.
08-04-2020, 12:17 PM
#2516
AZ Community Team
And even though the NSX was the first all aluminum production car, the NSX engineering team did some reuse by going over to Honda's motorcycle group to look at their design/engineering/fabrication techniques for aluminum extrusions, castings, and welding used on the 80's VFR750 motorcyle frame which was all aluminum. None the less, making a entire monocoque chassis out of aluminum was alot more difficult.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-04-2020 at 12:29 PM.
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08-04-2020, 12:44 PM
#2518
Three Wheelin'
I liked the article for the specs, exterior dimensions and what not all in one place. The TLX is pretty long and that's a big negative for me since I need to do a ton of tight urban parking.
08-04-2020, 12:55 PM
#2519
iWhine S/C 6MT TL
iTrader: (1)
The 1G NSX was all aluminum (chassis, suspension, body, engine....) so Honda/Acura had the engineering for 30 years it just took them awhile to reuse it on some other vehicles
And even though the NSX was the first all aluminum production car, the NSX engineering team did some reuse by going over to Honda's motorcycle group to look at their design/engineering/fabrication techniques for aluminum extrusions, castings, and welding used on the 80's VFR750 motorcyle frame which was all aluminum. None the less, making a entire monocoque chassis out of aluminum was alot more difficult.
And even though the NSX was the first all aluminum production car, the NSX engineering team did some reuse by going over to Honda's motorcycle group to look at their design/engineering/fabrication techniques for aluminum extrusions, castings, and welding used on the 80's VFR750 motorcyle frame which was all aluminum. None the less, making a entire monocoque chassis out of aluminum was alot more difficult.
WOW thanks for the history lesson! SUPER
08-04-2020, 12:58 PM
#2520
AZ Community Team
Yeah very cool indeed, Honda developed alot of new fabrication technology getting the aluminum chassis on the 1G NSX.
Forming and welding aluminum is more challenging than steel.
From the 1G NSX press kit
https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases...ction?page=537
I could ramble on for awhile writing about aluminum car tech. The best one is the C6 Z06 aluminum chassis was fabricated by Alcola and codeveloped by Vette and Alcoa engineers. For the C7, the Vette chief engineer Tadge Juechter wanted to bring all the design and fabrication inhouse and that's what GM did. They developed special MIG/TIG welding robotic welding station to perform the fabriation. For the C8, they extended it even further with the aluminum forgings, including the huge single piece engine cradle. Gotta give Audi credit for developing the first sedan A8 with an all aluminum chassis.
Not sure but I'm guessing the 2G TLX strut towered are bonded to the steel using adhesive? Like BMW does with the frontend structure of many of the their cars.
Forming and welding aluminum is more challenging than steel.
From the 1G NSX press kit
https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases...ction?page=537
This project examined virtually every material to determine its feasibility for a light weight unit-body chassis. The materials examined included steel, aluminum, carbon fiber, sheet molded plastic, fiberglass,and many other forms of plastic. They were examined for strength, rigifty, weight, flammability, formability, cost and of course, availability in the quantities necessary for production.
The result of this investigation lead the project team to the conclusion that aluminum was the ideal material for this application.
Although aluminum is roughly one-third the weight of steel, it's less rigid. It also costs 5 to 6 times more than steel.Thus the major challenge was how to exploit the weight advantage of aluminum while overcoming all the other disadvantages.
Aluminum, for instance, isn't as malleable as steel and is therefore much more difficult to form into the hundrelds of complex shapes necessary to create a car's structure. In a stamping operation, aluminum tends to tear, while steel bends and forms more easily into shape. Also, the surface finish of aluminum stampings is rougher than steel. If paint is applied to this rough surface, it produces less than satisfactory results. While this cosmetic consideration is irrelevant when dealing with the under-structure, it becomes extremely important when stamping the exterior body panels. The solution was found by using specially polished dies. Although these dies required the highest quality control procedures they provided the flawless surface finish the engineers had targeted for the Acura NSX.
Since aluminum conducts and dissipates heat more quickly than steel, the simple act of welding emerged as a challenge to the manufacturing engineers. They knew conventional spot welding equipment designed for steel, couldn't deliver the necessary high current and produce the desired clamping pressure needed to properly weld aluminum. It takes 3 to 4 times the current and 2 to 3 times the pressure compared to steel. New, larger, more powerful spot welders had to be designed that were capable of applying sufficient force and delivering enough current to do the job.
This new welding equipment performs 90% of the welding operations on the NSX assembly line. The rest is done by hand using are, TIG and MIG welding techniques; As will be explained in the Manufacturing section, each assembly operation at the plant is also a quality inspection station.
The result of this investigation lead the project team to the conclusion that aluminum was the ideal material for this application.
Although aluminum is roughly one-third the weight of steel, it's less rigid. It also costs 5 to 6 times more than steel.Thus the major challenge was how to exploit the weight advantage of aluminum while overcoming all the other disadvantages.
Aluminum, for instance, isn't as malleable as steel and is therefore much more difficult to form into the hundrelds of complex shapes necessary to create a car's structure. In a stamping operation, aluminum tends to tear, while steel bends and forms more easily into shape. Also, the surface finish of aluminum stampings is rougher than steel. If paint is applied to this rough surface, it produces less than satisfactory results. While this cosmetic consideration is irrelevant when dealing with the under-structure, it becomes extremely important when stamping the exterior body panels. The solution was found by using specially polished dies. Although these dies required the highest quality control procedures they provided the flawless surface finish the engineers had targeted for the Acura NSX.
Since aluminum conducts and dissipates heat more quickly than steel, the simple act of welding emerged as a challenge to the manufacturing engineers. They knew conventional spot welding equipment designed for steel, couldn't deliver the necessary high current and produce the desired clamping pressure needed to properly weld aluminum. It takes 3 to 4 times the current and 2 to 3 times the pressure compared to steel. New, larger, more powerful spot welders had to be designed that were capable of applying sufficient force and delivering enough current to do the job.
This new welding equipment performs 90% of the welding operations on the NSX assembly line. The rest is done by hand using are, TIG and MIG welding techniques; As will be explained in the Manufacturing section, each assembly operation at the plant is also a quality inspection station.
I could ramble on for awhile writing about aluminum car tech. The best one is the C6 Z06 aluminum chassis was fabricated by Alcola and codeveloped by Vette and Alcoa engineers. For the C7, the Vette chief engineer Tadge Juechter wanted to bring all the design and fabrication inhouse and that's what GM did. They developed special MIG/TIG welding robotic welding station to perform the fabriation. For the C8, they extended it even further with the aluminum forgings, including the huge single piece engine cradle. Gotta give Audi credit for developing the first sedan A8 with an all aluminum chassis.
Not sure but I'm guessing the 2G TLX strut towered are bonded to the steel using adhesive? Like BMW does with the frontend structure of many of the their cars.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-04-2020 at 01:11 PM.