BEAR-AvHistory

Would not gift a family member something I would not drive myself or did not think was a quality ride. The Coupe has done very well in the hands of a now 24 year old male. I did drive it a lot for almost a year when he was on an internship in Shanghai. Was run in parallel with the 435 I had at the time.

For a personal ride I prefer something quicker than the current Genesis that is still a wife acceptable any time any day car. Had a car like the expected Genesis 2021 GT90 been available with the V8 & "N" version it would have been a contender against my last 4 series a 440.

Right now am in two seat mode for my own car which limits the choice to the usual suspects so the 2018 440 has been swapped for the 2020 Z4 M40. Had the C8 not been so screwed up by the long term waiting list then the virus delay on top of no DOHC/DCT for another 2/3 years would have gotten a StingRay Convertible. Depending how it all shakes out will most likely loose the 2013 135is make the Z4 the long term keeper & add a Z06 or whatever the call the DOHC/DCT package convert around 2024.

BEAR-AvHistory

That's a good add but its still basically a FWD transverse engine car. This puts most of the power package forward of the front wheel center line & the cars are nose heavy. The longitudinal engine design on most RWD cars puts most of the weight at or behind the axle center line. Cars like the Corvette through C7 have the whole engine behind the axle center line & are really front mid engine cars typically with a balanced 50/50 weight distribution.

Ideal are the mid engine cars with the engine behind the driver

high-cam

The platform of the car is transverse front wheel drive, meaning the engine and transmission ahead of the front axle, with the engine mounted horizontally. SH-AWD can send up to 70% of power to the rear wheels at a time, but that is different from being a rear wheel drive based car . Think Focus RS and A45 AMG vs an M2 or a Supra.

Mr Hyde

Thanks for proving my point. I also would never buy my kids something that I did not think was a quality ride either. If that day was today, sure I would have no problem buying them an Optima or Genesis or something along those lines, but let's be real, the budget, requirements, and features on my child's car will not be the same as it will be for my own. My kids have very nice, quality rooms in my house too, but they aren't in the master bedroom/bathroom.

In the end when it came time to cut that much larger check for our own vehicles, the other vehicles being discussed (opulent, and luxurious rides compared to our first cars I'm sure) didn't cut it for me, or for you.


My own plans are a replacement for the TLX, either a Type-S, or S5 sport, but very miffed that ventilated seats aren't even an option at that price point. Very used to them in my TLX and MDX, and will definitely miss them if neither car has them as an option.
Never owned a car as long as the RS4 before, but I don't want to replace her. Values are going up for low mile, well kept examples like mine, but I still just enjoy the car too much....maybe it will eventually be replaced by a P car, but we'll see.

Mr Hyde

You guys are saying different things but conflating the two.

The TLX platform is FWD based just as the non AWD TLXs are. The SH-AWD system will be rear biased.

Speed_Racer

Did you see that screenshot? it's showing advanced coming in at about $44k (based on estimated $35k base price). Add $2k for SHAWD and you're at $46k for Advanced. Can't see Acura pricing Type S at $9k more. Who knows. . .

fiatlux

If a system is rear-biased solely because it can send more power to the rear than the front (even if it's 100% FWD by default), what does that make a system that can send more power to the front even if it's 100% RWD by default? We certainly wouldn't call it front-biased. Is bias purely based on what the torque distribution looks like when maximum traction is demanded?

Mr Hyde

Its the opposite, saying it is Rear biased talks about how the system acts in normal, non-slip driving conditions. My RS4 is rear biased, so going down a normal road, 60% of the power goes to the rear. My TLX is front biased, I am not sure what the split is, but more power is sent to the front than the rear in normal driving conditions. The SH-AWD can send more power to a rear wheel around a bend, but thats not the same as starting with a rear biased setup as a baseline.

The rear biasing helps give more neutral handling on FWD based platforms.

Xracer91

i agree with you and still hoping that the type s is fully loaded like the current pmc edition. I've owned 3 tls all with a v6, not willing to settle for a 4 cylinder but i want all the features of the advance package. I think mid 50s is reasonable if fully loaded.

mcrompton

Type-S will have ventilated seats. It's based off the tech from the A-Spec and in the interior shot you can see the buttons for them.

fiatlux

In that case, based on what you're saying then the Type S will be front-biased. I highly highly highly doubt they would by default send more than 50% of the torque rearwards and incur that fuel economy hit. That just isn't the Honda/Acura way.

leomio85

I did, and was referencing it in my post. The current AWD A-Spec is $45k. The new one will be more expensive. Just how it goes. The AWD A-Spec will come in at $46k+, no way the Advanced is coming in at that. Just because they "downgraded" to a 4cylinder doesn't mean they're going to price it that way. The 3G RDX went from a V6 to the 4cyl turbo and still increased in base price. The 2G TLX will follow suit. You can't expect to have it all for cheap. People want all the goodies in their cars because people simply lease cars they can barely (or not even really) afford because of the social media, "look at me" culture. The Type S will sell its first year simply because of the name and people who want the novelty of owning the first Type S in what, a decade? All the middle school kids will think they're hot shit. Other than that, anyone who's pragmatic will laugh at this thing unless it drops a bomb on everyone and comes out with somewhere in the realm of 450HP.

Backing off the rant, the Advanced will come in just under $50k ($49,990 for the plebs who actually fall for this marketing ploy) for the AWD version. Type S will come in probably $3-5K more. AWD A-Spec will be over the current one which starts at $45k. So, I dunno how you think Acura is going to price the Advanced at near the same price as the current A-Spec (hint: it's not gonna happen).

Edward'TLS

According to Acuranews.com,

https://acuranews.com/en-US/releases...essive-styling

Torque Vectoring SH-AWD®

Superior handling capabilities are now offered on all TLX models with the available rear-biased Super Handling All-Wheel Drive™ (SH-AWD®), Acura's industry-leading torque-vectoring all-wheel drive technology. SH-AWD is offered as optional equipment on the 2.0-liter TLX and as standard technology on the TLX Type S, the first Type S model to feature all-wheel drive.

Acura's 4th-generation SH-AWD® system has 40 percent more rear torque capacity and 30 percent quicker front-to-rear torque transfer than the 3rd-generation system in the outgoing TLX. The Acura SH-AWD® system in the new TLX transfers up to 70 percent of engine torque to the rear axle during normal driving conditions, while continuously apportioning up to 100 percent of that rear-axle torque between either the left and right rear wheels. Additionally, the rear axle is continuously overdriven by 2.9 percent, which amplifies the yaw moment effect of left-to-right torque transfer, elevating performance through sharper and more accurate turn-in, and improved traceability when cornering.

fiatlux

Their marketers can call it whatever they want. Mercedes calls their CLA a coupe even though it has 4 doors. Doesn’t make any of it true.

Taz69

That sounds like a hole bunch of moving parts. I am going with the 2.0T Advance package but the more I think about it the less I want the SH-AWD on the 2.0T. Its going to be heavier with that system It is going to be slower in acceleration and put less overall hp and tq to the tires vs a FWD version. If the Accord can drive fine with bolt ons and a tune I dont want to give up power for handeling. I live in the city and 99% percent of the time when I kick it with another car we are already moving and punch it. I have seen anywhere from 7 to 10% more loss to the tires with the SH-AWD system.

Maybe from a dead stop the SH-AWD would get the jump but going from 5 or 10 mph and punch it the FWD is going to accelerate faster. These peolple that dyno the vehicles with the SH-AWD system turn it off and only dyno the front tires I think thats just plain stupid. Thats not at all what the car is doing. Put that thing on a 4 wheel dyno and I bet the numbers are less turning all that stuff in the rear.

djhtsx

iTrader: (2)

SHAWD has been out for years. I expect Acura to only improve on it every year. SHAWD in the previous generation was amazing.

high-cam

It's not rear biased, SHAWD is a variable all wheel drive system. It sends 90% of the torque to the front wheels by default, but can send 70% of the torque to the rear wheels. I'm not sure if the torque distribution varies by drive mode.

ACCURATEin

Any chance this thing will house a 20x12 in the rear?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rays-Volk-T...IAAOSwQLZd5cQ7

Jiten Patel

I think you're referring to their 3rd gen SH-AWD system. The 4th gen is not like that. I suggest you read the press release again because it's the complete opposite of what you're saying right now. The new 4th gen is going to be rear biased with 70% going to the rear in normal driving conditions. I am quoting Acura right now. But yes it's a variable AWD system. It has been much improved though.

fiatlux

Maybe you should heed your own advice and read it again. They clearly say “up to 70%”. If you think they’ll be sending more than 50% rearward at steady state I have a few bridges to sell to you.

Speed_Racer

Nah, it's that way now. And I didn't say it was the same price. Advanced is only $1150 higher than the Aspec AWD now. If that's not "near the same price" I don't know what is. $35k estimated base is already $2k more than base price now. I don't expect it for cheap, but I also don't expect them to price the Type S $9k above the Advance. Ha, $49,990 Advance package makes the base start at $38k. $5000 more than current base, granted it's a lot more car in the 2021 base than the 2020 model. They know they have to be careful about pricing. Value has been their proposition. Anything priced too close to Germans and people will jump ship.

Edward'TLS

When Acura said "The Acura SH-AWD® system in the new TLX transfers up to 70 percent of engine torque to the rear axle during normal driving conditions ...", doesn't it mean most of the time, up to 70% of engine torque goes to the rear axle ?

Please give us the reference material where it says the upcoming 4th-gen SH-AWD system sends 90% torque to the front wheels by default. Maybe you know more about the SH-AWD system, that Honda designs and manufactures, than Honda does.

Midnight Mystery

IDK but if Honda designed it to have a FWD setup but with RWD bias it would probably cause a TSB in a the rear driveshaft joints few years. Typical Acura.

leomio85

Current AWD V6 A-Spec is $45k. Next gen one will be more expensive, so say $47K. By the chart, that would put the Advanced at $48.5-49.5K, likely around $2k (A-Spec to Advanced in the 3G RDX is $2k). Unless the Type S deducts a lot of what is offered in the Advanced, you're coming in at the mid-$50k range. Probably somewhere around $53K to start. The only other way I see it being cheaper is if it's completely underwhelming. If C&D's prediction was right that it was going to come in around the mid-upper $40k range, it will likely be a complete turd (ie: getting blown away by everything in its segment, with Honduh apologists claiming it's "more reliable tho" or "it'll be better in the twisties"). But, C&D also reported they project the new Ram TRX with a goddamn Hellcat engine is going to start at $56k (Durango Hellcat is going to be just under $80k to start) ... so that just goes to show C&D basically pulls numbers out of a hat without any actual intelligible reason behind it.

fiatlux

Not to be pedantic, but the 4th gen system isn’t upcoming; it’s already implemented in the 3G RDX.
https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases...ll-wheel-drive

Are you suggesting that the RDX is also rear-biased? Its marketing material says the same thing about “up to 70%”: https://acuranews.com/en-US/releases...cago-auto-show

Nedmundo

That's generally my take, but the steady state front/rear torque split might vary by drive mode. So perhaps in "sport" or "sport+" it will be truly rear-biased in steady state driving. That would be enormously cool. But hey, if the system quickly sends torque to the rear when launching off the line, I'd take that too. (In sport mode, the AWD Kia Stinger feels almost RWD off the line, which is one reason I liked it so much. But I think it is truly rear-biased.)

Also, with that long dash to axle, I wonder whether/how much of the engine's mass will be behind the front axle. We should get something out of those RWD proportions besides styling and additional crush space!

fiatlux

Not to be pedantic, but the 4th gen system isn’t upcoming; it’s already implemented in the 3G RDX.
https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases...ll-wheel-drive

Are you suggesting that the RDX is also rear-biased? Its marketing material says the same thing about “up to 70%”: https://acuranews.com/en-US/releases...cago-auto-show

Doesn’t sound rear biased to me, as they also say that “To greatly improve fuel efficiency, most of the power is sent to the front wheels when cruising in a straight line. As weight shifts to the rear during hard acceleration, the SH-AWD system transfers nearly half of engine power to the rear wheels and takes full advantage of additional, available traction.”
https://www.acura.com/rdx/modals/sh-awd-details

Edward'TLS

The 4th gen SH-AWD is upcoming as for the 2G TLX model series.

I'm not suggesting that the RDX is also rear-biased. I'm basically reading and understanding what Acura is telling us.

In terms of the marketing material for the RDX, it says "Up to 70% of engine torque can be sent to the rear wheels as needed," Whereas the marketing material for the upcoming 2G TLX says "up to 70 percent of engine torque to the rear axle during normal driving conditions".

"As needed" isn't the same as "during normal driving conditions".

So it is obvious that Honda has made improvement in terms of SH-AWD programming in adapting the new-to-TLX system to the upcoming 2G TLX. Afterall, the TLX is a performance-oriented sport sedan, while the RDX is a tall SUV. Thus, it seems reasonable that the 2G TLX SH-AWD system is factory tuned to be more performance oriented (meaning more RWD-biased) than the lesser performing RDX, or even the MDX.

Jiten Patel

Based on the two press releases, I believe they have certainly tuned the 4th gen SH-AWD differently on the 2G TLX compared to the 3G RDX.

fiatlux

Maybe obvious to you, but what I see is marketing-speak. You're assuming they are not taking any creative liberties with the terminology they use, whereas I fully expect them to pull out all the stops after the way they've marketed things in the past. Take for example the 1G TLX: https://acuranews.com/en-US/releases...a-tlx-overview

All-new platform my butt...the car shares the same platform as the 9G Accord. It even has the same exact wheelbase. Unless they mean back in the 2000s, they designed this platform knowing that eventually it would find its way into the TLX.

Powerful isn't exactly how I would describe the 2.4L....

Best in-class? Really?

"Near-limit and high speed maneuvering" is something that they consider to be "everyday driving conditions"? Uh huh...

high-cam

Imo, no, it doesn't mean It's sending 70 percent of torque to the rear most of the time. Their marketing team wanted to emphasize performance and that is the most sporting aspect of SH-AWD. And yes, I know the TLX uses the 3rd gen SH-AWD. "Acura's 4th-generation SH-AWD® system has 40 percent more rear torque capacity and 30 percent quicker front-to-rear torque transfer than the 3rd-generation system in the outgoing TLX." Those are the changes between 3g and 4g. I'm almost positive functionality has remained the same. Here's a reference.
https://www.acura.com/tlx/modals/sup...ll-wheel-drive

• The system continuously determines the optimal level of power distribution between the front and rear wheels—and between the rear wheels individually – based on a continuous analysis of wheel speed, steering angle, lateral G-force and yaw rate.
• To greatly improve fuel efficiency, up to 90% of the power is sent to the front wheels when cruising in a straight line.
• As weight shifts to the rear during hard acceleration, the SH-AWD® system transfers up to 45% of engine power to the rear wheels and takes full advantage of additional, available traction.
• On a curve under hard acceleration, the TLX feels firmly planted, because 70% of effective torque can be directed to the rear wheels. And all of that torque can be applied exclusively to the outside wheel, which improves cornering ability by allocating power where the weight has shifted.

Edward'TLS

Right now, it all boils down to your words vs Honda's words.

Unless you are one of the Honda staff who belongs to the 2G TLX program team, othwerwise I am more inclined to take Honda's words over your words.

BEAR-AvHistory

UP TO is a maximum - AS NEEDED is a we are not telling you how we do it. They are not saying what the control algorithm is. Its anyone guess what steady state at 30 50 80 mph might be. Also don't think it matters much either as steady state is just that, nothing happening to excite the system. Thing will come alive as you throttle up, down, turn etc. Some cars IIRC show a real time split on the dash.

fiatlux

You don't have to believe me.
But you also don't have to take what they say at face value. It's not an either or situation.

pyrodan007

Exactly, this is the same company that said the 9ZF was not defective yet quietly pushed in a fix in the next model year.

Mr Hyde

Not sure how you got that from what I said.

Acura has specifically said they made the system rear biased, and will send up to 70% of torque to the rear in normal driving conditions....Those two aren't mutually exclusive, so it could still be rear biased in normal cruising, and then go up to 70% rearward while accelerating for example. Its not that complicated to do with the SH-AWD system. Can you explain how an AWD system doing a 60:40 split front:rear vs a 40:60 split is saving mpg ?

So far we can only take them at their word, and I will until more details are released to prove otherwise, everything else is just opinion, and feeling. Not sure why anyone is trying to argue anything when no facts are available.

Mr Hyde

What a joke. As opposed to every other company out there that does rolling fixes for issues? At least in this case, defective is referring to shift quality as opposed to complete failures.

B8 Audi DSGs, Audi coilpacks since the beginning of time including the present, Mercedes headbolts, BMW has too many to list. Manufacturers make improvements on the move constantly across the industry, not sure what you expect, especially when there are no actual system failures.

Tony Pac

LOL @ this thread!

On a different note:
Anyone has any news when the TLX 2.0 will hit the dealership? I was told by mid-August but my source isn't 100% reliable.

As soon as the base 2.0 hits the dealer, Acura will reveal the MDX. Exciting year for Acura although this pandemic is slowing down everything but happy to see Acura has two brand new vehicles in their pipeline. One to be confirmed (ILX replacement).

fiatlux

You said:
Are you not saying that rear-biased means that in steady state (aka default), more power would need to go to the rear wheels than the front? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but in my book if a car under normal situations is sending more power to the front than the rear (which is likely the case with the TLX), then it is front-biased. Just because it can send more power to the rear than the front doesn't make it rear-biased; it just means it is capable of reacting to conditions to send more power to the rears than the front, but it fundamentally still powers the fronts more than the rears. Again, they say can, not will. Guess what, the 3rd gen SH-AWD can also send 70% of the available torque to the rear. Does that mean the 1G TLX is also rear-biased?

Also, a 60:40 split (which I doubt we'll see here, it'll probably more like 90:10 like the current setup) results in less parasitic loss / frictional loss compared to a 40:60 split. Sending power to the rear is less efficient than powering the front; it's the same reason why you see FWD cars have less parasitic loss than RWD cars from crank to the wheels. Ergo, better fuel economy when you send more power to the fronts than rears.

Lastly, we already know that this is the same system that is being used in the RDX, and we already know in that car most of the power goes to the front wheels in normal situations. It's not like there's no information available and that we're flying blind; there are reasonable assumptions that can be made.

Nexx

Late September is when it will be officially allowed to be sold. Whether or not anyone has inventory by then is the question.