I hate cars

I highly doubt that. Acura can't sell rebuilt/refurbished motors in new cars. For all we know, the RLs could have the same problem but less noticable because of better sound insulation.

joelsaxton

they said it might take a week before it posts.

joelsaxton

I have only read about this ping issue extensively here on acurazine, but I am sure there are other places, too. Based on the number of 07 TLS owners with this problem, and the number of people who complained to Acura Corporate about it, I am 100% certain that Honda knows about it. So when you call them to complain of pinging and they say "we never heard of this problem", you know they are straight up lying to you. Furthermore, the fact that the TLS is so quiet to begin with, there are probably owners all over the country who don't even know their engine is pinging. It would take a tremendous effort to organize and then present such a case in a court of law. Personally, I have had it with Acura, and simply won't buy another Honda/Acura ever again. Spending $40k on a car that pings on 91 is an abomination.

gavine

I was thinking we had no shot with a legal battle or lemon law but now I'm wondering if we have case in regards to the fact that the pinging affords lower gas mileage and less power. We bought our cars expecting to get the advertised power and MPG but when the engine is pinging, those numbers are substantially lower.

My car gets much better mileage and feels much more powerful (not to mention smoother) when I run 97 octane and I would be fine with that if that's what was advertised (then again, I wouldn't have bought the car if they advertised that it required 97 octane).

evanj5

look around the internet there are a lot of honda V6's with the same problem. I think the reason so many of us hear it is because with the windows up inside the cabin it is soooo quite. Thats really the only time i hear the pinging.

Anyways this is what I have been doing for the past 4 months to reduce pinging and my results are pretty good, I dont hear it much any more and when I do hear it its when im WOT. The thing that is wierd about WOT is that I can barely feel a difference in power between say 80% throttle and 100% only difference is pinging. At 80% throttle I wont get the pinging at 100% I wil.

--Ok first thing was CAI and throttlebody spacer. Completely removed 90% of pinging until air temps started getting over 80 hear in South FL, and I would only hear the pinging about 4k rpm.

--Next thing was to switch over to only using Chevron with techron. This helps. Last time I filled up with V-Power the pinging came back. So I will not fill up with anything but the Chevron 93 octance.

--After thinking about what is most likely causing the problem, that is ignition timing coupled with super high compression, I was trying to come up with ideas on how to make the ECU pull back timing. So realizing that having my IAT sensor in the relocation position on the CAI was going to make the ECU read lower temps and hence advance timing for optimal emissions and power. Putting the IAT sensor back in the IM has made my car feel smoother through the power curve and even more reduction in pinging.

-- Last mod I did was to bypass the coolant into the TB which you basically should do to maximize the purpose of the TB spacer. Without bypassing the coolant the TB still gets heated from the coolant coming from the engine. Call me crazy but I think this may have reduced pinging as well just sslightly. The IAT sensor on the Type-S is located in the IM not on the TB like base TL's so cooling down the TB will cool the air just slightly yet your still getting the same IAT measurements at the sensor since it is closer to the block.


I was just thinking about it today. After burning through half a tank of gas faster then I usual do, because my foot has been feeling kinda heavy this past week, I realized that even though the temps are in the low 80's upper 70's I have not been hearing any pinging.

Good luck everyone on solving this problem anyway you can !!!!!!! This is working for me now but eventually when I have extra money I will be getting a piggy back and a tune and say bye bye to pinging FOREVERRRRRRRRRRR......

Ramrodthrusterpuppy

I love my TL-S but ACS' attitude is starting to sound like...

gavine

Here's a nice technical overview of the TL engine and it says "potentially damaging detonation" so Acura agrees that detonation can damage the engine.

DIRECT IGNITION AND DETONATION-KNOCK CONTROL

Optimum ignition spark timing is crucial to engine power and efficiency, and varies based on the engine's load, rpm, temperature and other factors. The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors engine functions to determine the best spark timing. An engine block-mounted acoustic detonation-or knock-sensor "listens" to the engine; based on this input, the PCM retards the ignition timing incrementally to prevent potentially damaging detonation. The iridium alloy-tipped sparkplugs each have an individual coil unit positioned in the access bore directly above each plug, and require no service prior to 105,000 miles of use.

Source:
http://www.hondanews.com/search/rele...ockers&s=acura

Very nice all-around write-up by the way.

sam617

where can i find that "potentially damaging detonation"part,so i can print it n take it to my lawyer

gavine

Print the whole document...it's about halfway down under the " DIRECT IGNITION AND DETONATION-KNOCK CONTROL" heading.

Or, when you have the document open in your browser, hit CTRL-F (the "F" is for "find") on your keyboard and type the word "detonation". It will take you right to it.

Let us know what your lawyer says.

Bearcat94

EvanJ5, I've done all those things as well.

- TB Spacer I've had for a while.
- CAI went in last weekend. IAT stayed in stock location.
- TB Coolant Bypass also last weekend.
- Started Running Shell V-Power 93 exclusively.

With the TB and V-Power only I thought there was a reduction in the pinging. Seemed harder to hear, but otherwise all the same characteristics as before. Had been running Texaco with Techron, but the V-Power seems better for me.

I've only had the coolant bypass and CAI a few days (and with gas costing so much the car doesn't get as much "play time" as it used to), but when I tried to hear pinging yesterday (temp ~87*) I couldn't. Might have been covered partly by the increased growl from the CAI.

I'll keep listening and post back in a week or two. Temps will be High 80's to mid 90's most of the rest of the summer.

Also planning on installing a Thermo Gasket on the intake manifold which may (should?) provide additional assitance in keeping the air charge cool.

I hate cars

With the hotter temps lately, my 06 TL is back to being miserable to drive. The surging is back and worse than ever along with the audible pinging. It feels like it's lost half it's power then it comes back and then it's gone again. I've started shutting the AC off when I take off from a stop just so I can keep up with traffic without flooring it. Gas mileage has gone down to 17mpg if I drive it lightly. This thing sucks. Looks like I'm going to buy some xylene in bulk to cover the entire summer. With the 5mpg difference in mileage between 91 and 97 octane, it should help with the cost of the xylene a little. If only there was a way to back off the timing...

Bearcat94

Forgot to add: I changed over to Synthetic 5W30 Oil about the same time I switched to V-Power. That was, say, 6-weeks ago.

Not that it should make a difference regards this problem, but who knows .

juruki

iTrader: (2)

This is scary!! My car will be out of warranty in about a year. What happens in the long run? My car keeps pinging and pinging. How much more of a beating can my engine take?

I hate cars

What synthetic are you running? Something with a lower votality and a higher HTHS number "might" help ever so slightly in the pinging problem but I'm grasping at straws here. These engines don't seem to consume any oil so I doubt brand or type would help or hurt in regards to detonation but oil does lower octane if it gets into the combustion chamber.

I'm off to the paint store to buy 5 gallons of xylene after work today. It's too bad they tore all of the 100 unleaded pumps out. 10 gallons of 91 with 5 gallons of 100 would be cheaper than xylene.

Bearcat94

Pennzoil Platinum. Volatility and HTHS -

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Has anyone actually DIAGNOSED the noise as pinging????????? Dont get ideas and then run with them. It causes more harm then good.

Bearcat94

Short answer: Yes.

A number of us have had Acura Tech's and/or Service Personnel identify the problem as "Pinging" or "Knocking" or "Spark Knock".

What Acura has NOT done is find a cause and a solution. For the most part, they haven't even tried .

Seems to be *nearly* exclusive 2007 TL-S's and virtually everyone who has posted has the same symptoms - a metallic clatter from the engine bay, above the right foot, which is most easily heard under moderate throttle at ~3,500 - 4,000 RPM in 2nd and 3rd gear.

I hate cars

Yes, I posted this toward the middle of this thread. I've put my car on the scanner, it showed tons of knock retard. Started adding octane, pinging got better and better and when I had ~97 octane, it was gone.

This is the real deal, not rattling heat shields or valvetrain noise. It goes away with octane.

hmjaffer

Hey IHateCars,

I talked to an ex-Acura mechanic yesterday and he said that the pre-2004 TL would ping due to the EGR valve either being blocked or the holes being too small (he would use a drill bit to make the hole larger).

Is that a possibility in our 3rd Gen TL's? I have a 2004 and it has been knocking/pinging upon light acceleration for the past 2 years. I have been told by the service dept that it is 'normal'.

hmjaffer

Followup question to IHateCars,

I just noticed a few posts back where you said that you were going to check out your own EGR valve...? Did you turn up anything?

I hate cars

I never got around to it. Soon... Mine didn't start the pinging until the second summer I owned it so mine could very well be a plugged EGR.

Right now I'm in the middle of my "ZR1 killer" project with the GN so most of my free time is taken up with that.

It's 104 degrees today. The TL was running like crap. I was having to give it 1/2 pedal just to keep up with traffic from a redlight and it was surging and bucking and pinging like crazy. Fed up, I stopped at the Sherwin Williams and got 3 gallons os Xylene while I was out running errands and put it in in the parking lot. After a few minutes of driving it was like a new car again. Acceleration is smooth, no pinging, and a ton more power. It actually has torque again.

I reset the mpg on the dash and I picked up 5mpg but at only 20 miles of driving it's too early to tell. I'm thinking that it's going to stay at a 5mpg gain because it's taking so much less pedal for the same acceleration.

Bearcat94

Noob question.

What is the EGR Valve (I know it's something like "Exhaust Gas Recovery"). I guess I mean *where* is it?

Is it Item #8 in this parts list:

http://www.acuraautomotiveparts.org/...s=&view=normal

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Ok. Well at least I feel better that there is someone actually has some back up to the mystery. So just to confirm when you hear the ping you see the ECU pull timing back. Also outta curiosity what is the IAT reading? Not sure how deep your scanner will run. Most likely generic OBD2 but I am going to get to the bottom of this. Also if you can what are your Short term fuel trims B1 and B2 reading? (while its pulling timing)

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Also did this stuff all start as it got warmer out?

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Not to burst anyones bubble but if the engine is running ideally at 14.7 (which it does) along with the EGR lift kicking in right around where you all seem to be having the issue, (this creates the perfect scene for some light knock) and the ECU retards the timing (which it does) then what is really the problem? Here is a blurb on the matter....
"One thing to understand is that detonation is not necessarily destructive. Many engines run under light levels of detonation, even moderate levels. Some engines can sustain very long periods of heavy detonation without incurring any damage. If you've driven a car that has a lot of spark advance on the freeway, you'll hear it pinging. It can run that way for thousands and thousands of miles. Detonation is not necessarily destructive. It's not an optimum situation but it is not a guaranteed instant failure. "

Bearcat94

Mine goes away (as far as I can tell) once the ambeint temperture gets around/below 60* - 65*.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Yeah that makes sense. Lower IAT will cool down the air charge. CAIs for everyone!!!!! I really dont think I would loose any sleep over this.

I hate cars

That kind of misinformation is destructive. I don't care to comment. I'm so done with people that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

I hate cars

Son of a bitch, how fucking hard is it to understand. Detonation causes pressure spikes which knock out pistons, rings, bearings, headgaskets. It's fucking known by every fucking person besides people on acurazine. This is as basic as it gets. If you don't understand it don't post in this thread.

EGR....... Exhaust Gas Recirculation........ Computer commands it..... It reduces power when it's functioning......... To compensate, computer adds more timing....... More timing is ok when EGR is functioning because it increases detonation resistance..........If EGR doesn't function when it should and timing is increased you get pinging..... Is it so fucking hard to understand?

Detonation is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ok. This is as elementary as it gets.

I'm so fucking sick and tired of new people coming up with what they think are new ideas. Understand how these things work and then post an opinion. I could have a more intelligent argument with my 8 year old niece on detonation.

Our TLs detonate which is caused by incorrect timing, compression, hotspots, EGR malfuntion, or lean A/F. If I had the time I would trouble shoot it but I would rather use xylene for the time being.

junktionfet

Thanks I Hate Cars... To go further, detonation is no better than a misfire--fuel is igniting at the wrong time and usually isn't burning thoroughly. Besides the obvious implications to fuel economy and emissions (especially for a vehicle that claims to be ULEV), the unburned fuel makes its way down the cylinder walls and into the oil. Over time this action has a negative effect.

Detonation is destructive no matter how you try to spin it. Simply put, Honda fucked up when engineering this car. It sounds like several of their newer engines are sitting on the edge of being poorly tuned, but this one in particular is terrible. The whole company has taken an odd turn lately anyway, I wonder what's up.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Yeah I guess your right. What I did post was not misinformation to someone who REALLY understands engine performance on all levels. This isnt a blown V8. The point is that while detonation is not ideal, it may not be as DESTRUCTIVE as you make it seem. Why dont you stick to your turbo GM stuff and and stop ranting like an eight year old. What are you trying to contribute to this forum? If you are so sick of it than leave.....

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

The reason its pinging is BECAUSE it is ULEV. You guys really dont get it.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Ill just wait and see what happens. I work for the company so Ill know something if there is anything to know. Same thing happened with the SLX's a while back. LOL> and these aren't NEW ideas IHATECARS. You are the one posting information that is not 100 percent true. Not ALL detonation causes catastrophic failure. I have been with Acura for 9 years. And lets see, I have done.....oh yeah......ZERO engine engine repairs caused by detonation. Aside from the occasional asswhipe running their car outta gas and nuking cats and a few random injectors not even a repair for a lean condition!!! But if anything comes up I will let you all know.

junktionfet

Ooooo No you di'int!

I can't wait to hear your explanation. Please... enlighten me. I've been waiting and praying for someone to at least explain WHY Honda chose to tune this engine to ping so damn much if indeed it was deliberate.

Remember, several members of your audience (me included) either have been or currently are dealership techs, or know a great deal about how engines work. So if you're going to just make up something, walk away and don't bother dragging this thread down any lower than Honda has already. Don't take that as a personal attack--we're just tired of speculation and the occasional blow-hard that strolls in here to advance the timing a bit.

Anyway if incomplete combustion and over advanced timing is the key to low emissions, the Oldsmobile 307 V8 was ahead of its time.

EDIT: That last sentence is sarcasm.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

lol I am not making this stuff up either. If you havent figured it I have access to FAR more info than a majority of the people on this forum (on the Honda side), I think its safe to assume I have more backing than the average a hole that starts popping off acting like they know shit. in quick sum. Our cars are ULEV cuz they attempt to run at stoich (and do a majority of the time I mean 14.7 to 14.8 under anything but full throttle and decel) so with the factors mentioned ABOVE this creates a perfect scene for some knock , which the knock sensor detects and the ECU pulls timing. I dont take this as a personal attack at all. I back my statements up with facts. No one has come to the table with A/F readings or ST fuel trims while this pinging is going on. I asked. It can see that some of you have some knowledge and I respect that. But dont run off and say a general statement like "detonation blows holes in pistons and cracks ring lands and stuff" and not expect someone with some intelligence to counter that statement with a logical arguement. If you read a few of my earlier posts I started off as trying to gather more info on the matter so I could do some of my own tests an then there was an childish outburst by IHATECARS followed by a supportive post by JUNKTIONFET and here we are. I just saw that this was going no where so why would I waste any more time on it? Point of it is....if it develops into something Honda seems fit to address then they will. Just like they did on the SLX. If you guys are gonna come in and start flexing your muscles than go right ahead. I have better things to do. Simple as that.

junktionfet

I've worked on a lot of cars that run the mixture as close to stoich as possible, and they don't ping. Your reasoning is incomplete.

Yes we all know why an engine pings. Don't go restating the obvious in broad terms in order to sound like you know what you're talking about. My question is how incomplete combustion due to over-advanced (for conditions) timing can somehow lead to better emissions. It seems counter-intuitive. Would you like a second-go at answering my question?

But you haven't said anything new.

My car pings at wide open throttle as well as 1/2 or 3/4. The ECU goes open loop at wide open throttle, short term fuel trims don't matter. A/F ratio is most certainly going to be richer than stoich. For what it's worth, long term fuel trim hovers around -0.6% to -1.3% on mine from what I remember.

But detonation can blow holes in pistons and crack ring lands. More importantly, it induces wear at a level that won't be seen until the engine is older. That little bit of extra stress on the rings, wrist pins, rod bearings, and even main bearings has a cumulative effect just like extended use at high RPM or tons of miles. How can this possibly be argued?!

Furthermore, if you really worked for Honda and posted this^ juvenile rebuttal on a public forum, you'd be soooo fired (especially with the grammar you're using... jeez). "Cuz"? "Than go right ahead"? I hope you're just a sales guy.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

This is getting so boring. I have better things to do then to play spell checker and waste time arguing valid points back and forth. This was supposed to be a thread that was interested in getting to the bottom of this noise people are hearing and you have taken it upon yourself to create a show of grammatical examination and attempts at personal insults. Truth of it is you DO have some value to your knowledge. What you seem to lack is the abilitly to use it to move forward and Actually FIX something without letting your pride get the best of you. Maybe you do in the real world but your display in here would lead me to believe otherwise. So now if youll excuse me I have some cars to sell....oh sorry.. you'll

I hate cars

This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Just because it's not immediately breaking ring lands and such, it's still hammering away at the internals.

Mr tech, please explain what happens to emissions the moment detonation happens.... I'll give you a clue, think of the NOx.

I apologize for the outburst, I want to keep this thread informative and not a pissing contest.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Too late. We where headed in the right direction but then it went south.

I hate cars

I'm not running a blown V8 either....

I do come from a GM background, but I also take refresher courses every few years in the Advanced Computer Controls class at the local JC. I don't work in the auto industry any more but it's fun to keep up with what's new out there.

There are a few absolutes no matter what brand of car you work on. One being detonation is always bad, end of story. The things that cause detonation are always the same, no matter what the brand.

Engines are engines, there's nothing special about the TL or GN engines though I'm a bit jealous that the stock TL heads flow much more than my fully worked race heads for the GN.