I just called myself. If you are having this problem please call.

 

jey77- I'm fairly close to you, 4 hours. Down here in Jacksonville Fl. I have a terrible knocker. I also have a friend with TL-S also with the problem. Mine has been looked at multiple times and had the knock sensor and ECU reset with no success. Early on they tightened the heat shield. **rolls eyes**

 

Don't hold your breath but i'm going in tommorrow at 2:15 p.m. to go for another ride along. I've been promised that if I can reproduce the sound AGAIN (for the 10th time) they will take the car and start troubleshooting. I'm not certain how they are going to troubleshoot but whatever they do, I will demanding a complete fix and nothing half-assed. Whatever the solution is that they have in store for me once it's found will be immediately addressed to you guys on this board. I'll provide scans of whatever paperwork is involved and anything else.

Can someone explain to me the workings of what exactly the knock sensor does and how the ECU responds and so on? I feel i'm gonna need as much knowledge as possible tommorrow because I will not be leaving unhappy and unsatisfied.

 

Speaking of the heatshield: One of the first repairs to my car was the replacement of a heatshield. This repair made no difference of course and a potentially good heatshield was discarded.

Lately I've noticed the sound of a buzzing or vibrating heat shield at 4500+ RPM. Oh the irony!

 

I wish I could help more but unfortunately I can never find info on Acura specific PCMs.

The knock sensor is a piezio electric sensor screwed into the block and picks up on the vibrations caused by knock. It will usually pick up on the severity and frequency of the knocks. This is fed into the PCM and interpreted to determine how much timing to pull (knock retard). Timing is then pulled back to eliminate knock. The process happens in miliseconds. Timing is put back in very quickly after it's pulled and in our cases probably pulled out again. This is why you might sometimes feel surging when the engine is knocking even if you can't hear it.

So if your base timing map is calling for 30 degrees of ignition advance and you show 10 degrees of knock retard, total timing is now only 20 degrees. Not exactly the best for power or fuel economy... Once the knocking starts, timing has to be pulled back more to stop it than if it never happened in the first place.

I've seen on the dyno for whatever reason, that the amount of retard shown on the scanner vs the actual amount pulled when verified with a timing light is not always the same.

I hope our resident Acura tech sees this before you take the car in tomorrow since he can give you much better specifics.

 

Wow I really appreciate the information you've given me. So basically, as soon as the knock sensor senses vibrations from pre-ignition it'll pull timing to the appropriate retard of the timing so the engine will not have preignition. Well if this is the case, then the million dollar question is : Why doesn't the knocking stop in the Rsx Type- S, TL Type-S, and god knows how many other Acura's when the Rpm ranges from 2500-3500? I think i'm gonna ask to have the obd2 scanner hooked up to my vehicle to further prove that it has knock.

Question : If they tell me the readings from the obd2 scanner for knock is normal, what's the best thing I can tell them?

 

Sometimes once the knock starts it's hard to make it stop. The computer might not be able to pull enough timing. It's possible that knock could start a hot spot in the combustion chamber that contributes to the problem once the knock begins. There are many scenarios that could happen here.

Your last question is one I meant to address but forgot in my last post... I haven't been able to find any info specific to the TLs.

Think about what makes the "knock" sound. It's a pressure spike much greater than the engine would ever normally see. Think about how much pressure is in there that you hear the knock even though it has to go through the cylinder walls, water jacket, and the outside of the block to get to your ears. Any preignition is causing this spike and it's trying to force the piston back down (while it's coming up on the compression stroke) the wrong way, causing a loss in power and fuel economy even before the computer pulls back timing. I don't really have a solid answer to your question other than finding manufacturer specs which I haven't been able to find.

 

I have to say that this is complete bullshit when the local dealership's head of the maintenance department tells me that it is a KNOWN problem (he has seen it before) and that there is nothing they can do about it. He tried to pawn it off on the oxygenated fuel that we have here in El Paso during the winter months (not to mention the HIGHEST octane I can find is 91). He started to blame it on the brand of gas that I was using, but ever since the initial visit for this problem back in October/November of '07 I've been using nothing but Chevron Premium (again, 91 octane), and after he heard this he shut up w/ the fuel situation.

He rode in the passenger seat (the original technician drove) and I sat in the backseat (that was a first) while the tried to reproduce the noise. They were VERY successful, to the point where they could reproduce it every time, and at which point they promptly drove back to the dealership and sent me on my way with the resolution that there was no resolution. I kinda just left in shock and I just found this thread today. I plan on giving that 1800 number a call as soon as I set foot in my house today and giving them my full opinion on this bullshit matter, especially after reading 29 pages of people complaining about the same problem.

When does that new Lexus IS-F come out? I might have to take a visit to the Lexus dealership across the street from the Acura one this weekend and have a chit-chat with one of their sales people. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Acura/Honda, but if it comes to me having to use a particular brand of fuel, along with having to put up with engine pinging....I believe I might have to switch brands of cars.....This isn't a F-in Ferrari here, so I don't expect the service requirements to be the same....

 

This is why I LEASED my 08 TL Type S..............
I feel everyone on this issue..........seems like Acura won't do anything about it.
Well.........in 3 years they get my car back, and I get a new one.

I HAVE noticed the valve chatter in my 08 Type S, too.

 

Update: Sorry it took so long to get back to everyone. Well the day of the drive, i wasn't able to produce it as consistently as any other day that I drive the vehicle but the knocking was definitely there. Once again my driving style was blamed as well as saying "We at the dealership can do no more for you. We've done all we can." Of course i persisted in saying that the problem is NOT fixed and I will not be happy until it is resolved and will keep coming back. Well the guy gave me a can of octane booster. Told me to drive on it for a full tank and report back to him. I've driven for half a tank and the spark knock is still there and still consistent on my everyday drives.

I need expert advice from you guys. It's come to a point where i've decided i may be moving forward on this problem through legal matters. I have a few questions.

1. Can the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act be used in this?

2. Can someone give me a complete briefing on how the I-Vtec motor deals with knocking? The most I know is that. As soon as the knock sensor detects knocking, the ecu is supposed to retard timing appropriately therefore getting rid of the knock altogether and that this is supposed to happen in less than fractions of a second. If this were true then why is it as soon as the car knocks at around the 2500 rpm range, it continues until 3100-3300rpms?

Those are the couple questions i have for now. Thanks and hope to hear from you soon.

 

1. Lemon Law is more likely than Magnuson-Moss (my guess; or does Mag-Moss encompass the Lemon Laws?).

2. I don't know if anyone has the in-depth detail on the knock sensor. IHateCars or one of the other knowledgeable posters has put up some posts on how these things generally work.

Based on those, a couple of suppositions. The ECU cannot react "instantly" It does not know how much timing to remove. So it takes a little out and listens .... takes a little more out and listens .... takes a little more out ... etc, etc. UNTIL the knock is gone. Then it adds a little back in to find the edge and sets the timing there. That would explain why it takes those 1500 or so rpm's before the sound goes away.

You can also bet that there is Knock before you can hear it and after you can hear it. It's got to be pinging pretty loud to get over the engine & road noise and into the cabin.

Finally, some one used a scanner in the OBDII port and it showed soemthing like 13* of timing change. That is a HUGE adjsutment to eliminate pinging. In "normal" circumstances you'd expect a couple of degrees, not 13*!!


Some one recently posted (and I agree), why don't the Acura tech's plug in a scanner during the test ride to see just how much timing adjustment is being made? Seems to me that would give them something to back to Acura Technical/Engineering with.


BTW - TL/TL-S in NOT i-VTEC. They are just good old VTEC.

 

MmMM.... that is really interesting. I had my car(Rsx Type-S) hooked up to an OBDII scanner and I read an average of 7 degrees of timing pulled and at the most I saw 13. Well now here's the strange part, if the ecu is indeed detecting the knock, then why are we not throwing a CEL for knock? I mean we can all clearly hear it. The mechanics at Acura can clearly hear it, so why no CEL? Even in cases of my 13 degrees pull of timing, I didn't get a CEL. What would be the explanation for this? Thanks~ any help is appreciated.

 

Again, supposition on my part, but the knock and/or ECU induced timing retard must not be CEL-type faults.

 

I havent been coming back to this thread much anymore because like I said after I installed AEM + p2r my knock is gone. I rarely here a ping and if I do its so faint and gone in a tenth of a second. I do have a vibration a 4-5k now probably from the intake itself or a heat shield i dunno but i know its not pinging cause its consistantly the same exact sound and in every gear at same rpm.

I am still waiting to see if there in anyone else that is going to put CAI on to help the problem and see their results.

 

I may try the CAI to see if it fixes anything. What AEM intake did you use? I assume the one specifically for the TL-S and what is p2r?

 

CAI or not.....I don't think this is going to be a valid Acura recommended solution... I've really loved this car but if this knocking problem isn't resolved in the not too distant future... anyone else feeling the new Lexus IS-F? :-D

I might try taking my car back to the dealership....they know me by car/name now when I pull up *sighs*

 

p2r is the throttle body spacer, contact eccelarate, he gives a good deal on the the intake and spacer. Check out the performance threads. The install is easy.

 

i don't understand how increasing the air flow would help this problem...aren't we getting too much air as it is? is your theory that the extra air flow is causing the ecu to adjust to add more fuel? i guess that would make sense.

 

Based on the fact that I only notice the knocking when the ambient temp is ~60* or higher, I assumed it was from the increased cooling of the air charge. I don't have a CAI but kind of exptrapolated my observations with evan's and the CAI.

Does that make sense or is it just a misconception on my part?

 

You are correct. On the flip side, hopefully the computer doesn't see the colder air and advance the timing more.

 

talked to my Acura Customer Care Rep yesterday. His name is Anthony. He says Acura has no record of there being a problem like we are describing and seeing in our cars.

I think everyone needs to mention Anthony when calling so they[Acura] can get in the loop.

 

This is the Bullshit part of what Acura does that pisses me off.

Is there a way we can list and/or share Client Care Case Numbers? Would it be dumb to post the numbers?

Or a least list who actually has a case number related to this?

 

1.
User: Bearcat94
Date Case Opened: 10-1-2007
Year/Model: 2007 TL-S

2.
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2.
User: Dingdongman
Date Case Opened: Jan 2008 - Anthony
Year/Model: 2007 TL-S
Dealer - Acura of Orange Park, FL
Dealer Representative who verified problem: Jake
Days vehicle was at dealer for diagnosis: 10+
Previous Attempts at Repair by Acura for this issue:
a. Heatshield Tightening
b. ECU Reset
c. Replace Knock Sensor
Mileage Problem Began/Noticed: 1500 miles
Current Mileage: 8500 miles

 

1.
User: Bearcat94
Date Case Opened: 10-1-2007
Year/Model: 2007 TL-S
Primary Dealer Service: Hendrick Acura, Charlotte, NC
Mileage When Reported: 6400
Current Mileage: 12700
Notes/Comments: Intial Diagnosis of Loose Heat Sheild was eliminated as a possible cause. Ride along with Service Tech (Herbie). He heard pinging and acknowledged it was spark knock/pinging. Recommended Fuel System Additives. 2 Additional service visits - complaint logged, but no action taken.

2.
User: Dingdongman
Date Case Opened: Jan 2008 - Anthony
Year/Model: 2007 TL-S
Primary Dealer Service: Acura of Orange Park, FL
Mileage When Reported: 1500 (1st noticed)
Current Mileage: 8500
Notes/Comments: Dealer Representative who verified problem: Jake
Days vehicle was at dealer for diagnosis: 10+
Previous Attempts at Repair by Acura for this issue:
a. Heatshield Tightening
b. ECU Reset
c. Replace Knock Sensor


3.
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Feel free to add yours. I'll try to "clean" the list up from time-to-time.

Easiest thing to do is <QUOTE> the most recent version, remove the [QUOTE ] & [ /QUOTE] tags, fill in the next space, then submit the post.

Purpose (if nothing else) is so that when Acura says "We have no knowledge of this problem", you can say, "There's a case from Orange Park Acura last month, one from Hendrick Acura since October, one from .... etc, etc. What do you mean Acura is not aware of the problem?"

 

1.
User: Bearcat94
Date Case Opened: 10-1-2007
Year/Model: 2007 TL-S
Primary Dealer Service: Hendrick Acura, Charlotte, NC
Mileage When Reported: 6400
Current Mileage: 12700
Notes/Comments: Intial Diagnosis of Loose Heat Sheild was eliminated as a possible cause. Ride along with Service Tech (Herbie). He heard pinging and acknowledged it was spark knock/pinging. Recommended Fuel System Additives. 2 Additional service visits - complaint logged, but no action taken.

2.
User: Dingdongman
Date Case Opened: Jan 2008 - Anthony
Year/Model: 2007 TL-S
Primary Dealer Service: Acura of Orange Park, FL
Mileage When Reported: 1500 (1st noticed)
Current Mileage: 8500
Notes/Comments: Dealer Representative who verified problem: Jake
Days vehicle was at dealer for diagnosis: 10+
Previous Attempts at Repair by Acura for this issue:
a. Heatshield Tightening
b. ECU Reset
c. Replace Knock Sensor


3.
User: Joelsaxton
Date Case Opened: 2-12-08 (many cases previously, however)
Year/Model: 2007 TL-S
Primary Dealer Service: Santa Monica Acura, Santa Monica, CA
Mileage When Reported: ~1500
Current Mileage: 7500
Notes/Comments: I have brought my TL-S in four times for this ping problem. Whatever they do (ECU reflash, etc) seems to improve it for a while, but then it worsens. I use 91 exclusively. I have spoken to Acura Corporate (SoCal regional case manager James Wong) and they said they never heard of any ping problem.


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If you spend some time looking at the past posts (back to 2004) you will find this has been a problem for a long time. Acura knows about it and will do nothing about it.

The dealer might circle jerk you around, "we can reproduce the problem" or tell you that you have "bad gas". You will spend time running around looking for the "magic" gas that will fix the problem, but it won't work.

You might even file for a state Lemon law ruling and then end up with the ruling "The pinging does not significantly impact the value or operation of the vehicle”

My guess is they lean out the factory settings to get max gas milage and and figure a small % of the cars will have the pinging problem.

In the end you take it in the ass and live with it or take it in the ass and trade it in…

Maybe pinging TL owners should unite and file a class action. It's hard to accept a $35k+ car that rattles like a 1972 Ford pinto

 

I still feel the 07 tl-s has a much higher prevalence of this issue.

 

My '08 Type S has bout 3k miles and I can hear that pinging sound when I acclerate up my hill. It usually does it between 3000-4000 RPM. I only use premium gas, 91 octane and higher. I haven't had the dealer checked it out yet, but maybe next time when I go in for an oil change.

 

Good luck... If your experience is anything like ours, Acura will not address your problem.

 

true....acura will say it was a loose heat shield near the exhaust and they fixed it...then on your way home you will notice that the pinging is still there.

i decided its healthier for me to stop fighting it and to start embracing the noise...in fact, when its not there (colder temps) i start to miss it.

 

I agree. I tried fighting at first and all it did was waste my time and cause frustration. I've excepted the fact my car pings and rattles. After this car I seriously doubt I will purchase another Acura though.

 

new member, my tls pings, dealer always giving me the run around that they dont here it,f*** acura

 

Just sell it - you aren't happy with it so why put up with it? Buy a BMW and listen for it to ping and then complain on that forum.

 

don
basically did just that. Its sitting in the driveway not being driven. Just driving the nsx instead until I can wait out the redesign of the new 2 seater. If I have to wait much longer I might get a chance to drive an R8 and there won't be anymore need for this fix-it forum anymore.
Like "he" said...it healthier to not have this issue. One thing different about me though. I don't pay for Acura's mistakes though. It will be purchased back from Acura for all my investment and payments or the state of Florida can do it. Either way is fine with me.

 

If it was only that easy. Trading or selling a car less than a year old is hard to break even on then you have to turn around and give uncle Sam more tax money for whatever you buy.

 

I agree entirely!

I work too hard for the money I bring home. I refuse to break even because that would mean I gave Acura the $15K I got for my old car. Depreciation on the car is about what I've got in it.

But rest assured...it WILL be traded or sold by its 3 year b-day.

As far as I'm concerned, this crap Acura is shoveling has lost a buyer for years...maybe decades. I refuse to step in their "shovelings" again!

 

WOW. I keep reading all this and it really makes me glad that I LEASED my 08 TL Type S!!
Don't get me wrong.......I have the "ping/chatter" problem with my Type S, but I DO NOT PLAN ON BUYING THIS CAR at the end of my lease.......so I don't care that much.

Leasing is great for me.......I drive very low miles, 8-10k/yr and get a NEW CAR every 2 or 3 years. IF THERE IS A MAJOR PROBLEM........car goes to the dealer. IF THE DEALER JERKS ME AROUND.........the car gets turned in after 2 or 3 years.........on to the next one!!

I pay a SMALLER PAYMENT vs purchasing.........always have a "NEW" car (under warranty) AND........AND........my left over money (hence the LOWER payment vs purchase) is EARNING INTEREST IN A CD/BANK/Investment!!
LEASE = CAN'T LOSE!!

 

I don't think I'll be buying another Acura if this kind of stuff continues. The dealer claims that Acura buyers are generally tech-savvy and they do a lot of research. Clearly though, Acura is building cars intended for people that are too inept to notice major engineering flaws... so screw them.

Though I really really hate to do it, I'm buying a German car next time around. I used to work on them, so I know what to expect. I can deal with poorly constructed and overly complicated cupholders that break all the time, but I can't deal with an engine that is hell bent on destroying itself. Thank you Acura for making me doing something that I hate. I hope your brand image plans go down the toilet along with your hideous grille designs. Bitches.



I feel better now. Thank you for listening to my rant.