junktionfet

I wish the car had a damn distributor because I'd just set the timing back a couple degrees and forget it. I seriously doubt the extra advance it has is doing anything for power because all it does is ping and the knock sensor makes a sorry attempt at correcting that anyway.

I'm peeling the ULEV stickers off my car tonight because I don't like false advertising. I wonder if Honda could also be held accountable for making false claims about that too?

joelsaxton

I agree. I have gotten nothing but obfuscation and lies from Acura so I think we need to flex our collective muscle. I'm not sure what it takes to do such a thing, but I am willing to put my name and whatever else is needed on a petition.

Perhaps we should start a new thread and ask for people with pinging TL-S's to put in their info. Or perhaps the thread should link to a site where people can input their information into a form -> database.

Let me know if I can help.

dingdongman

handruin...better gas mileage??? You call 19mpg better than what? I call it crap. NSX got far better mileage than these TL.

As for the current status of my knock. Worse than ever after ACURA OF ORANGE PARK replaced my knock sensor and lead wire to sensor. This problem is concerning. I am requesting that Acura offer trade in opportunities for me, with no lost monies, for another car in the lineup. I'm starting to really get exhausted from this issue.

junktionfet

I've been considering switching back to a TSX. Either that or get a small used pickup truck (they are handy) and a nice certified preowned S2000.

Crap, I'll just sell the TL and buy and old ass beat up Volvo or something. I'll use the bike if I want to go fast

Handruin

I've yet to see anything lower than 23 MPG in my TL-S, so no, 19 MPG is crap. I don't know how or where you drive, but you have an issue with your car if it's that low. On highways and longer trips, I usually get 29-30MPG in my TL-S. Around town, I get 24-26MPG. My last long distance trip from Mass to Washington DC (including the city driving and a ton of traffic on the way back) I averaged 28 MPG. For any other car in this class/HP, I don't see similar gas mileage.

evanj5

Handruin you must be driving like a grandma WOW. Only way I get an average MPG of 23 is if I stay under 2.5k rpm all the time.

I do all city driving and have some fun here and there, quick turns, fast accel, but then pop it into 6th gear whenever I get a chance and I average 20 MPG

evanj5

Someone would have to talk to a laywer that knows about something like this. I spoke with my brother in law who is a laywer and he doesnt know much about what procedings would need to take place.

However what I suggest as a first measure is research your states lemon law.

joelsaxton

I am speaking to a friend of mine, a very talented attorney, to get his opinion on what are options are. The CA lemon law applies to any warranted car that is used for personal purposes that has a problem which the manufacturer/dealer has been unable to repair after a reasonable number of attempts.

It would carry a lot of weight if we could all do it en masse and show we have the same preignition problem and that Acura has failed to fix it for any of us.

xtralight

Calm down guys... the solution is simple, we just need some of us to blow our engine up and THEN Acura will do something about it.

Since it will be covered by the warranty, I will just drive "normally"(the way a performance car has to be driven) and either the engine will blow up or I'll sell it before my extended warranty expires.

Why stress too much about it? It will be my last Acura that's it...

dingdongman

Xtra- problem with your theory is you are submitting to a company who sold you a car with documented problems inherent in the model itself, not just a couple of select cars which have had poor luck or been used improperly. This problem is one of legal merit now and should be addressed quickly and swiftly by acura because this will also be my last Honda if I have to listen to this problem for the next few years on a daily basis.

Maybe a nice window sticker with the acurazine website on it will assist other acura owners to learn more about their cars. I would say that sitting in traffic each week here in Jacksonville I might have 3000 -5000 people see my back window. 500 a day each way downtown for a week....
I really don't want to have a pissing match with acura, I just want a quality product for my 35000.00 or them to take the car in on trade.

Tech7427

honestly, i really think honda runs the timing and air fuel so close to the edge, of detonation, to obtain maximum horsepower, and still pass as a lev car that the gas that we are getting is really causing thie problem, if you tend to believe it or not..

ive been on tech line a few times about engine pinging and they havent said anythig about a ecu reflash, but it might be happening.

an ecu reflash of part throttle, high load timing maps can solve this problem that you are having.

simple fuel trim variables and the timing is what is causing this issue.

honda runs high a/f valves, 15:1 and higher in some cases.

and when people dont hammer on the throttle alot, carbon builds up on the valves and pistons, causing points of detonation with the sharp piece of carbon causing a lower flash point on the gasoline.

ive hammerd on tl's , do induction services and put it cans of fuel treatment and it goes away.

id really like to hear the peoples driving habits with these complaints.

I hate cars

That's a good point. I do lots of long trips with steady 2,000rpm runs for hours at a time which is a good way to get carbon buildup. I will do a WOT run or two every now and then just because of my driving conditions. Still, the car shouldn't detonate and I agree that it's tuned too close to the edge from the factory. I know a lot of these guys hammer their cars pretty good so carbon buildup shouldn't be a problem.

junktionfet

Every tank of fuel in my TL-S includes several trips to ~7000 RPM and full throttle. Otherwise I drive in a somewhat smooth manner, and I always let the engine reach operating temperature before giving it more than 1/4 throttle and 3500 RPM.

Honda undoubtedly spends a lot of time engineering certain pieces of their cars, but other things clearly go out the door with little or no refinement, and too often it's stuff that affects your ability to drive. It makes you wonder who exactly was test driving the prototypes, if anyone at all. For example, who approved the DBW throttle design on the TSX? Was it the same bonehead that approved the 6 speed manual gearbox in the TL? Just those two seemingly benign examples totally ruin the driving experience. It is such a shame.

If this is simply an issue of Honda trying to squeeze as much timing and lean burn from their high compression engines as possible, then they obviously never got a real world sample of gasoline from each local market in the US, nor did they put enough miles on their test cars. If indeed they did sample gasoline from all over the country and accumulated tons of miles, their test drivers and engineers are completely inept and partially deaf. Get them out of there. Honda, tighten your game up!

dingdongman

I drive particularly hard and fast. 120 mph daily. High rpm. Rev limiter is a normal part of the powerband. Nearly 90% paddle shifted automatic.

I'll be taking mine back next week for its third visit for this problem and to repair the damage from the recent stay with them to the rocker panel from an unknown source at the dealership.

dingdongman

what's your problem with the 6 speed? To close ratio for street driving?

Tech7427

there isnt a doubt in my mind that there is a problem here.

i just have a problem with alot of customers coming in and blaming us and hammering us on surveys because of the pinging issue, im sorry i didnt manufactuere the engine.

i cant do anything without honda's permission other than the basics..

junktionfet

Anyone who actually blames the pinging on a tech or service writer (or salesman for that matter) is misguided. The manufacturer is at fault, and they are not only hurting the consumer but they are also hurting their dealership network.

Now, if the dealer is being dismissive or if the tech is too lazy/unskilled to verify the car is actually pinging, then the consumer has every right to be upset.

After high school I worked as a tech at an Audi dealer. I periodically went to their school and everything down in Atlanta. I know what it's like to be on that side of the fence and I try to be sensitive to that. Giving a dealer poor marks on a survey doesn't fix anything. Even if the tech screams about a problem to techline, the people on the other end of the phone can only do so much.

The men and women who are truly responsible or that have the power to fix the problem are safely positioned behind layers of client service nonsense.

Thankfully I went through a few career changes--not sure if I could stand staying with Audi much longer than I did.

Nothing would impress me more if Honda sent a letter saying "Yeah, we f*cked up... we shipped your car with a piece of sh*t timing and fuel map and we're sorry. We designed a new one that is perfect and your dealer can install it for you. Sorry about all the trouble. We appreciate your loyalty to our brand. Enjoy!"

Instead all we get is "Um yeah, our sh*t's perfect. We're honorable and don't make mistakes anyway, our reputation is perfect. We invented VTEC!!!!!! Okay still not satisfied? Um, okay... Hey dealer, throw a knock sensor at it and reset the whole thing, maybe that will fix it. No? Try kicking it then... Crap, still nothing? Alright well there are no DTCs, so this is just normal operation."

junktionfet

No, its waaay too inconsistent--never goes in gear the same way twice. It's always an adventure! Sometimes it won't even go into gear (third mostly). If GM fluid makes the world a happy place, then Honda should ship the cars with that fluid. Or they need to design a gearbox that uses normal fluid and isn't a piece of crap.

The TSX on the other hand has a perfect gearbox, even with "normal" fluid. The gearshift was as reliable as Earth's orbit, and I never missed a gear. The absolutely unacceptable DBW throttle latency ruined the whole experience though. I used to get sooo frustrated by that.

Honda cars are so freakin brilliant, but so aggravating sometimes. I wonder if they have any idea how close they are to being totally perfect, only to be stopped by the most senseless and easy-to-fix issues. Yet for some reason they are often too proud/stupid/lazy/disconnected to fix it. It's like dealing with a crazy person that's somehow functional enough to make you sometimes forget they are crazy... You know?

Tech7427

if youre a tech and cant get the engine to ping, that is it it actually is, and not normal valve train noise, then you shouldnt be working as an automotive technician, at least not for a dealershop with advanced technologies. shit. go work for foooorddd... with their eec systems..junk

ive been on techline. they are reluctant to give me any info on a possible ecu reflash for this issue.

i think they didnt go long enough into the research aspect, as to, how many differnt grades of gas there are, ethanol, etc.

but on the contrary, the consumer will then bitch about lower horsepower and transient response delays from the retarded timing maps and fuel curves.

id love to put a wideband on each bank of the J35 and see what each bank is running at..

i wouldnt be suprised if its high as 14.7 to 15.5:1 during medium throttle, heavy load situations, couple that with intake air temps and blend of gas then you have a problem.

there are many sensors to look at for timing / fuel trim..

it could be t he fact that they are using a different type of ect sensor..

i really cant tell you.

if i had a EMS. such as hondata or aem to control timing curves, id gurantee you i could solve the problem, then youre going to lose power that is if honda put the more advanced timing in to increase horsepower, remember, higher timing doesnt always mean more power.

i really couldnt see the knock sensor causing this problem..
now i could see the location of a knock sensor causing it, and the sensitivity of one..

ugh i could go on and on..its christmas, im going to use this new croc pot!.

2007TL-S

Thank you for your insight. I am not sure if I would want to lose power to just get rid of the ping, etc. I understand that is the likely result with a remapping solution but then we all paid for something that doesn't meet the advertised specs. I am concerned with the long term effects to the engine and like most of us WILL get rid of this car before the warranty ends if a solution is not available soon. What are your thoughts on what, if any, damage this could be doing over the long term?

I am not sure what I would do in Acura's case. We really are the minority I am sure. I bet many people don't even pick up on this issue so us that do are a very small voice. The most cost effective solution is to just ignore the problem. I think individually our best bet would be the Lemon Law that someone mentioned earlier. I believe once a problem is documented if it can not be fixed after 3 tries you are eligible for compensation or something. I haven't researched my local law enough yet but it seems like that would be a way to go albeit a long and potentially expensive option if you had to hire a lawyer, etc.

Back to my first point ... I could probably live with this if I knew it wasn't harming anything but I would never be happy with the car or buy another Acura. This is my first Acura/Honda and likely my last because I doubt anything will ever be done voluntarily to solve this problem.

Bearcat94

It's not right to ding the dealer or the tech if they cannot solve this issue. It's a "built in" problem and Acura hasn't given the people in the field a way to fix it. When I completed my Service Survey, I gave all 5's but did note that Acura had not provided a solution to the problem that the tech/dealer could apply.

As far as driving style: I've noted previously that I don't hear the pinging as prevalently as some and that as the weather cooled it has nearly disappeared. My wife drives most of the miles and I doubt she's ever had VTEC kick in. I'll drive a it few evenings a week and on weekends and I'll see VTEC everytime I drive the car. Don't know what this "mixed" style does for Carbon deposits.

If you believe the marketing, our carbon deposits should be fairly low as we're all running "Premium" which all (?) have detergent additive packages to minimize carbon build up.

I'd like to see a fix from Acura, but I'm not going to go nuts while I wait. I won't change my driving style, I won't add solvents to my gas and I won't habitually add boosters or cleaners to my fuel.

I doubt that the Lemon Laws are the answer. Most (here for sure) require a safety item or a mechanical item that reduces the value of the car. IMHO, it'll be tough to demonstrate that occasional pinging, with no mechanical failure, significantly reduces the value of the vehicle.

joelsaxton

I have the same problem with 3rd gear too! I thought I must be crazy or just didn't understand the clutch well enough.

I hate cars

Tech, you seem to know your stuff on these cars. I have a couple questions if you don't mind... I think we've established these cars are run pretty lean even under high load conditions. I'm assuming timing is too aggressive which is the main problem and the lean mixture is not helping things. In my experience you will run into drivability problems like surging and a random lean pop here and there before actual detonation when it's lean and under light to moderate throttle but with correct timing.

How does the ECM react to colder IATs? I'm assuming more fuel and more timing like most cars but I haven't been able to get a straight answer. I would assume any fuel changes would be compensated for in the fuel trim so by fooling the IAT sensor any fueling effect is temporary... but timing could be altered.

For what it's worth, mine requires a minimum of 96 octane to not ping. This is listening by ear and not hooked to a scan tool so it may still be knocking. I plan to keep this thing for many miles and can't have it hammering the rod bearings and headgaskets so I pay the price for fuel. I've seen what light detonation can do over 50,000 miles.

Something is off with the timing. With 91 octane my friend's IS350 kills me as he should. With 100 octane he will pass me but it's only a carlength or two by 80mph. If this thing was running properly the 100 should not make a difference and either way my AT non "S" should not be in the same league as the IS.

Last, how do you hold the throttle open to do a compression test on these DBW cars?

I hate cars

Very interesting day today....

I scanned the car today. One of my 02s didn't want to crosscount at idle but there are no codes... The temp sensor was showing 84 degrees even though ambient air was low 40s and the sensor is moved out of the engine bay....

I was watching the knock retard but unfortunately couldn't get 02s to display on the same screen at the same time. I ran out of time before I could test 02s separately.

I went WOT from a 10mph roll and was greeted with 10 degrees of retard. I immediately lifted throttle out of instinct because in the GN that's blown headgasket territory. Did another run to 100mph just to make sure it wasn't transitional knock the first time. It varied between 2-11 degrees through the whole run. Went to 0 on the shifts (I assume because the throttle momentarily closes) and immediately climbed again after the shifts.

One thing that stood out is the knock did not get worse in third like I predicted it would. It actually had less knock in the higher gears which is opposite of what usually happens.

Did several manual shifting runs from low rpm and heavy throttle and got tons of retard, more than WOT.

During normal driving there was no knock unless I rolled into the gas quickly. I drive very easy so me rolling into the gas quickly could be someone else's "normal". This would be the brief occasional ping that some hear.

The thing is, to anyone who isn't familiar with these numbers, the over 11 degrees that I saw is huge. On a normal car you can expect the occasional 1 degree here and there but these numbers are bad.

Tank was full of 91 octane. This is the first tank without Xylene in a while which is why I chose to test it. Going to do another test when it hits a half tank and I add two gallons of xylene.

junktionfet

Your test results make it seem as though Honda never bothered to actually tune the engine. Instead they turned the timing all the way "up" and rely on feedback to fix it. If that is indeed the case, then it is a horrible engineering practice and a bit scary. There's no way these engines are even close to being "clean" or economical if you put them under a lot of transient load. There has to be something wrong.

joelsaxton

[QUOTE=I hate cars]

The thing is, to anyone who isn't familiar with these numbers, the over 11 degrees that I saw is huge. On a normal car you can expect the occasional 1 degree here and there but these numbers are bad.

/QUOTE]

All I can say is WOW. Those numbers are what I'd call 'amazing'..

Maybe it's actually tuned to run on 100 octane.

I made yet another appointment to have them look into the spark knock problem, but I'm not holding my breath. My lemon attorney says if I can reproduce the problem without Acura fixing it, I can lemon the car, but I'd much prefer they simply fix the problem.

Brettg

I just read this whole thread!
It sure sounds like Acura did not account for the US gas types and the compression ratio, along with the lean burn.

The things that really impact ignition knock are the egr system, spark plug heat range, intake air temps, compression ratio, fuel octane, and spark map.

Now it sure sounds like Acura has the spark map too advanced at times for the fuel quality and compression ratio.

With OBD2, you can not have a problem with the egr or the mixture without setting a code, the standards are VERY strict, the systems self test, etc.
The knock sensors only react to knock, and are supposed to be very fine tuned to ignition knock, and nothing else.

Tests with boosing the octane here seem to PROVE its an ignition map mistake.

The only thing one could do is retard the timing, which will reduce power from the non knocking maximum power, but might boost it from the knocking maximum.

The only way you can change the timing is in the ecu, or maybe with the air intake sensor.
You cant move the cps (crank position sensor) I would think, as that also times the injectors.
In every car I ever had info on, the intake air temp sensors job was to retard the ignition timing on intake air temp rise. It does NOT do anything with the mixture, or any other thing unless they started doing something recently.

Cold intake air tends to prevent ignition knock, and hot intake air promotes knock, so on all the cars I have ever looked at, the sensor retards the timing on temp rise.

Now all you need to know is the resistance range of the sensor, say its 100 ohms at 32F and 1000 ohms at 200F, and plug in a resistor as a test/cure.
You want to fool the ecu into thinking the intake air is as hot as its likely to ever get, which will retard the timing the full amount.

That might get rid of the knock, but might reduce power and mpg quite a bit, someone would have to test it. I dont think it would set a code unless the resistor was out of range (short or open).

That with colder spark plugs might do something.

The only REAL way to fix it is to remap the ignition timing.

Any ignition knock is bad news for ring lands, rings, piston tops and bearings.

Bad knock will kill things quickly, light knock works over time....

I am VERY glad I got my car when you could get the 6MT with the 3.2 engine, and for much less money!


Brett

joelsaxton

That's why I believe unfixable knocking should qualify for the lemon law, since it is basically eating away at the engine gradually and the manufacturer is unable, or unwilling, to fix the problem.

I hate cars

I agree with everything you've said. I'm running one heat range colder plugs and have been since summer. That seemed to temporarily help but it's like this car is made to always "adjust" and run on the edge.

I may take the IAT sensor out of the intake path and leave it in the engine bay to soak up some heat. Even if it leans things out temporarily I'm sure it will adjust fuel trim and should hopefully cut timing. Generally you will lose less power with the correct timing map rather than the knock sensor pulling a ton of timing.

I'm going to try the test again maybe next week when I have more time with the scan tool. Going to try it with the IAT sensor moved and once that's done I'm going to add octane to see exactly how much it requires to stop pinging. Right now to stop the surging from the timing being pulled, it requires 96-97 octane going by seat of the pants. Can't wait to have cold hard numbers.

What's scary is I've gotten better gas mileage on 100 unleaded on my usual 4 hour trips than 91 octane. The burn rates could be different and that could be the gas mileage gain but it could also be that the timing is being pulled at a steady state cruise on 91.

If anyone can think of other numbers to display, let me know.

junktionfet

There is a gas station in a suburb of Raleigh that sells "100 octane" fuel. I tried some this morning. After several miles down the road the pinging nearly vanished, but then it started creeping back. When I parked it wasn't too bad but some light pinging was still present under certain conditions. My engine is apparently trying to destroy itself.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the power delivery does feel A LOT smoother. I'd wager the engine is actually producing a little bit more power too.

Tech7427

IAT Sensor - Just a thermistor like that of an ect sensor, more fuel, the more timing. thus cold air lowers intake air charge, denser air, more power, needs more fuel, unlike that of a 90deg day. less timing, more fuel needed to cool the in coming air charge . too far advanced timing in turn means higher peak cylinder pressures at the wrong time and temps and results in this ping.

And you're correct, the with 100 octane your car should lose power, that is if the car is tuned correctly.

most people believe that the higher the octane the more power, remember, octance is the resistance to combustion.

for instance, say you put 100 octane in a 91 rated car, the 100 will burn slower than the 91 because of its resistance to combustion; now this is if that compression ratio has not been changed and ignition timing.

if there isnt enough compression and timing to succesfully burn off all fuel with a 100 octane fuel, youre going to lose power.

and for the DBW throttle control. I think the HDS has a funtion to where you can control the throttle valve but im not sure, with the engine off that is.

Honda's lean burn is kicking their own ass.

Tech7427

this is what transient response is, from the moment you hit the pedal to the moment the power hits the ground.

As far as moving the IAT sensor to a hotter place in the engine bay is a good idea.

I would try to do that

and what scanner are you using? modis, determinator, ??

I hate cars

It's a Snap-on from the transmission shop I used to work at in my early days. The live data display could be in a better format but it works, just a little hard to read while driving.

Definately going to move the sensor. They will probably let me take the scanner home for the weekend so I will be able to do detailed testing.

I would be fine with losing a couple initial hp to avoid triggering the knock sensor to begin with. In my experience once you start the pinging you have to pull much more timing to stop it than if it never started at all.

Any idea what the thermostat is on these cars? I was seeing 185-187 degree temps but I thought they're supposed to run 195 or more.

Tech7427

185, hmm that seems a little low there. Ill check with the scanner somtime today or tomorrow on how hot it gets, usually hondas run upwards of 190, Hondas do typicially run on the hotter side.

the ol' brick you are using eh? the one with the scroll wheel on the right side, with keys you plug in?

im sitting here at work now. im going to log onto isis to see if i can determine iat voltage and or resistance at what temperature.

even if the 185 was correct, i wouldnt see that problem causing the knock..

im wondering where the IAT sensor is located in relation to the egr ports in the intake manifold..hmm potential screwup? i can defintealy checck..

usequal

man, i wish you guys worked for Acura/Honda....We'd be in good hands....thanks for all the info.

Brettg

As I said in my first post, the ONLY thing I ever read the intake air temp sensor does is retard timing on temp rise.
It does NOT adjust the mixture that I know of, unless honda does something different...

Mixture is set by the coolant temp sensor, plus throttle position/rate, maf or map sensor, and fine tuned by the oxy sensors.

To retard the ignition timing, you would want the intake temp sensor as hot as possible, if it just does the ignition retard like I think it does.

Cooler plugs will only go so far, but they should help, and wont hurt as long as they dont foul.

You can lower the compression ratio, increase the fuel octane, lower combustion chamber temps, or in SOME cases retard the timing to reduce knock.

There are 2 things that could be in play here, ignition knock, where the ignition fires too early and the expanding flame front pounds the piston on its way up.

There is also detonation, where the octane and compression ratio, plus the hot combustion chamber ignite the fuel BEFORE the sparkplug even fires, you can get 2 flame fronts slamming together from that.
You used to hear detonation on old V8 cars what ran and knocked after they key was turned off (no ignition with key off), also known as dieseling...

If you have detonation, you can reduce combustion temps, increase octane, lower compression, ignition timing does not come into play except as it changes combustion temps a bit.

Running higher octane fuel does not tell you which you have, ignition knock or detonation, or both.

Retarding the timing would eliminate ignition knock, but might not eliminate detonation.

What can Acura do about the problem?

Not a lot, remap the ignition somewhat, increase the egr gas, but both might increase emissions past the ULEV bit...

I got to say, if it was my car, I would not plan on keeping it long if there is no fix.

Brett

junktionfet

Intake air temperature is a key ingredient in calculating the density of the intake air charge, so I would imagine it does affect the basic injection duration.

joelsaxton

Acura called me to participate in a design-judging event in Long Beach for their future car models. I told them I could do it, then they asked me if I was happy with my TL-S. I said no, and told them about what we're going through here. They asked if I would consider buying an Acura in the future, and I said "Yes, but only if Acura starts to act right and fixes the problem." That was the wrong answer. They said that I was ineligible for the survey.

Brettg

You would think so, but as far as I know they do not use air intake temps to adjust mixture.
The mixture fine tuning is done by the oxy sensors.

Brett

Brettg

Doing some research on the web, cars that use map sensors may use the intake air temp to adjust mixture some, cars with maf sensors do not.

Not a lot of info on the web about what they do in different make cars....

Brett