Roger555

iTrader: (3)

How come no one mentions this to new members asking around about what TL to get?? everyone says TYPE S TYPE S!! Sounds like the type s is going to have a 100K shelf life. I drive my cars to 2-300K sounds like the S would be a bad choice

samplemonster

Good point, its the first time I've seen this thread on this topic, and feel better about owning my 05' TL

smarty666

As long as you use top tier gasoline I don't think you'll have a problem but a lot has to do with the oil you use.

I don't have the type-s but the base TL and use Shell Premium and Valvoline SynPower oil and have no chatter on my TL.

On the other hand, my Maxima, which uses the exact same gas, from the exact same station, from the exact same pump is clinging/knocking/pinging like crazy, I mean ridiculously loud, even when the engine is running and while driving. The only thing different with my Max is the crappy regular oil Nissan put in at 3750! They wanted like $95 bucks to put in a high grade Nissan recommended ester oil and I was like forget that. I'm going to be putting in Val SynPower or Mobile 1 at then next oil/filter change and see if that quiets it down!

I hate cars

Premium fuel will make it harder to hear the pinging but hook it up to a scanner and it will scare you.

I'm going to swap out the thermostat to a cooler one for this summer. I really tried not to take this route because it can cause other issues and the TL already uses a pretty cool thermostat. I'll report back in a month or so when we're in the middle of the hot weather.

smarty666

I don't even need to hook it up to a scanner! It is so loud you can hear it over the engine sometimes when its running. Then, when you shut the car off, it sounds like a popcorn popper under the hood!

timportspeed

here is a solution to all this so we never have to deal with this no more, don't buy an acura car anymore, i notice my 08 TL-S pings too, I bought it brand new, there been too many issues with their cars and its a headache to bring it back to the dealership to have little things fix under warranty and dealing with the tech and arguing with them freaking makes me tired, this is the reason why i bought a new car, so I dont' have problems with the car since its brand new, Acura doesn't get enough funding from honda I wonder if thats why our engines was poorly engineered

timportspeed

engine is either poorly engineered or desperately needs to be retuned, engine not quiet at all at idle, too noisy

atthelastminute

Is the engine in the new accord the same as the '07-08 Type S engine? If so, is the problem fixed, or do they suffer from knock too? I ask because I am looking at purchasing an '07 or '08 Base, but the dealership we are looking at has an '09 Accord with the 3.5/270hp engine for almost the same price as a 3 year old TL. I like the TL better, but it is hard to ignore a newer car with most of the same features.

wickie2000

There is this bulletin on Honda IN 08-017, this seems to be the same issue we are having. can someone post this Bulletin that has access

I hate cars

Mechanically the engine is great. It's been around in one form or another for over 10 years. I think they got greedy with the tuning, trying to get that last few hp and mpg out of it. 11:1 is really pushing the limits of pump gas in a non DI engine.

I would rather them pull out some timing and have the thing run right. I have a base model but it shows over 13 degrees of knock retard in the summer and power and mpg go to hell. If they started with less timing the computer would not have to pull so much out to keep it from knocking in the first place.

In another thread I found what may be the cause but I'm waiting until it gets a little hotter so it will be obvious if it fixes it.

The stock thermostat is supposed to be 170 degrees. My car has always run at 198F summer or winter. This is pretty normal for most cars so I didn't think anything of it until recently I learned what it was supposed to run at. If it's tuned for 170 and running at 198, that could cause the issues we're having. It would be nice if anyone else could put their TL on a scanner to see what temperature it runs at, both the pinging ones and non pinging ones.

I've got a new 170 degree stat ready to go in but probably going to wait another month.

I hate cars

Don't quote me on this because I'm not sure about the newest models but during the '04-'08 run, the Accord ran 10.5:1 compression vs the Tl's 11.0:1 so it was not as octane hungry. In theory the 11:1 engine will get better mileage and power as long as it does not ping but unfortunately that's not always the case. If they pulled it off without the pinging, the extra half point of compression would make up for the extra cost of premium and you would get more power.

PhilB81

on my way to and from the grocery, I thought of this thread... I was pinging under milder acceleration than usual, man what a dissapointment. Power seems a bit down through the range, though vtec seems 'ok'

DJANZ07

I have a friend with a 2008 BMW M5, a friend with a 330i and a friend with a G35 all of them told me they have similar issues!! This is what happens when you want to make crazy power with v6 engines. As for my TL yea I def think I heard it before but I use Mobil 1, and 93 oct gas only. I have about 65000 miles now the car runs silky smooth!!! It will go away just keep using Mobil 1 and the best gas you can buy. I can remember before I began using the good oil under 16,000 miles I had the same problem but a while after swithcing to a full synthetic oil and staying with it, the noise has gone away. At the end of the day the Acura TL-Type s is a Honda! This is my third and yea they might have a small prob or two but mechanically I promise they will last forever. I love my type s and drive it to the max whenever I can!! My advice to my fellow TL owners "Its all in your head," fix it when it breaks, "Just turn up the Volume and keep on Truckin"!!!!

I hate cars

LOL @ the Mobil One fixing detonation issues. If the oil made a difference in the sound of the pinging it wasn't pinging. Maybe you're hearing valvetrain. It's been gone over too many times before but Mobil One 5w-20 and 5w-30 (except for the EP stuff) is average at best and not a true synthetic.

Detonation will kill ANY engine. Doesn't matter who made it. Hondas are no tougher in this regard and many times are weaker than many other engines. They don't like detonation.

Every car does not ping and no car should ping. My GF's Murano does ping and the dealer is so uneducated that we're on our own. Manufacturers have gotten greedy. Taking the car right up to the point of pinging will make the most power and give the best mpg. Once you cross that line and it pings, you're losing power and mpg and engine life expectancy.

DJANZ07

I respect your answer about the valve problem, but regarding the mobil 1 oil, do you think it is still better than regular motor oil, and what do you mean it is not a true full synthetic? Any rec's on a better oil?

PhilB81

I think the best ones are either Red Line oils, or Motul.

I personally use Castrol Synthetic, my cousin is friend with some race mechanics, and they found in their performance tests and engine shaving measurements that castrol performed very well, better than mobile 1. This was about 8 years ago, so things might have changed, i don't know.

I hate cars

Mobil One is a good oil and better than average. You will get many trouble free miles with it. I tend to be a little OCD when it comes to this stuff.

Most Mobil One products are not a true synthetic. Some are such as their EP line and the 0w-40. The regular "fully synthetic" 5w-30 is a groupIII oil which is a highly refined dino oil. Castrol won a lawsuit many years ago filed by Exxon Mobil to be able to label a grpIII oil as a synthetic. Once Mobil lost, they started labeling their grp III oils as synthetic and/or lowered the base stock of their true grp IV to a III.

Don't take this the wrong way, grpIII oils are great, I just don't agree with their marketing.

I know I push Redline a lot on here but it's because I truly believe it will provide the best protection based on what I've seen during teardowns. Engines are always cleaner all over and especially in the ringland area. Wear is always less and the oil will hold up longer in severe conditions.

We're probably splitting hairs as I'm sure the TL will have no problem going past 200,000 miles on just about any oil.

Waltah

iTrader: (3)

lol'd at this.

joelsaxton

Acura emailed me to sell me their new 2010 RDX. Since they mentioned addressing my needs as a customer, I took the liberty of (yet again) telling them about my fine 07 TLS:

---
Thank you for your business . We are just following up with you, for you should have received a packet in the mail regarding our new 2010 RDX. Either you were once inquiring about this new vehicle or you qualify to lease or finance this vehicle. We trust that your needs are being addressed and we would love to hear how everything is going regarding your 2007 TL. We value every customer and welcome every opportunity to assist our customers and make your experience as pleasant as possible.

If you should have any questions regarding this packet, service, or financing and leasing please consider management's open door policy as an invitation for you to discuss your automotive needs with one of us. We believe our customers deserve whatever care and personal attention is necessary to fulfill their needs.


Thanks again for thinking of us. Please contact me and let me know how I can be of service.

Chelsea

---

Hi Chelsea,

I am looking to keep my 2007 TL-S as long as possible. Unfortunately, I have had persistent problems with engine pinging (spark preignition) ever since I got the car. I use 91 gas exclusively. I have complained to Santa Monica Acura about it several times (it should be in your records) and I also complained to Acura corporate and told them to make a record of it as well. Nobody is addressing this problem, and it has been very frustrating dealing with a company that doesn't appear to care about engine quality. I would like you to file away this conversation as well so we have yet another record of my continuing complaint about pinging. I have spoken to TL-S owners on the internet and many of them have been reporting the same issue and with no help whatsoever from Acura. Some have solved the problem of pinging by adding xylene to their fuel to bring the octane rating up to about 97 (which is a ridiculous thing to have to do to get a car to work properly when the manual clearly states it should run fine on 91). I myself have not tried this, and as such, I am often met with the pinging sound when I am accelerating. Not a luxury experience at all.

Here is an online survey and a very lengthy conversation about this problem. Notice over 30% of TL-S owners have this complaint.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/poll-does-your-tl-type-s-ping-618682/

Here is another thread on the same subject:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=618137

Since you believe "customers deserve whatever care and personal attention is necessary to fulfill their needs" I hope you will find a way to rectify this issue.

---

Hi Joel,



Thank you for your response. I apologize this is occurring for your vehicle. I am a new sales consultant here, so i will do the best to my ability to address this issue. Even though i am a new sales consultant i have done auto work myself. The TL's engine has a high compression ratio and with that requires a higher octane gas (higher than regular 87 for sure) to prevent knocking and pinging. The owner's manual RECOMMENDS 91 octane and higher. You do not have to add xylene to your tank, just pay attention to where you fill up. Chevron and 76 are always preferred. Arco for example is more watered down then most.



Other than that i did pay a visit to service to address this issue. We have had no complaints from other clients within our service department regarding this pining noise. It is not a typical occurrence and the engine is not designed to do this. (in reference to one of your blog comments). Since it is not a normal function of this vehicle i suggest that you bring the car in , take a service adviser on a test drive and re-produce the noise so that we are authorized to open it up and figure it out. If it still has not been fixed then i suggest that you push this issue further with corprate so that they can componsate you or figure this issue out.



Would you like me to set up an appointment and loaner for you?
-Chelsea

---

Chelsea,

I almost always use Chevron's 91, and I have never ever used anything other than 91 octane - ever. Not to nitpick, but it is an important point that the owner's manual says 87 octane is ok, so you are actually incorrect when you say it requires "higher than regular 87 for sure." That aside, I have brought the car in many times to Santa Monica Acura to share the pinging problem (you can check the records) but your techs say they never hear anything. In an attempt to address my complaint, they said they tried some exhaust tinkering and apparently some ECU map changes, but none of those changes corrected the problem. I have tested this car with my friend who is an auto expert, and it pings upon mild to heavy acceleration as clear as day, especially when it is warm outside. If you guys are really interested in addressing the problem you could simply hook up a laptop to the car and test the engine to see how many degrees of spark retard occur during acceleration. It's summer time, perfect time for pinging. If you want to hook it up to a computer to see EXACTLY what is happening with the knock sensor, then I am interested, but I am not going to do it on my dime. Frankly, I have had enough of the run-around.

Additionally, I would like to know how many 2007 TL-S owners you actually have coming into your place for maintenance. I suspect you're not allowed to discuss this, however. Truth be told, I have never seen another TL-S in all the times I've visited Santa Monica Acura, so when you say you have never once received a complaint about pinging, perhaps it is because there are only a handful of '07 TL-S's coming in.

Over 30% of the '07 TL-S owners on Acurazine.com (the link I sent you) report pinging, so if this issue is really news to Acura, that is quite surprising. We discussed this issue in great depth and several of us reported the issue to your corporate offices. If you look here:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...618137&page=12

..you will see we compiled a list of 51 users of the site (most of whom I believe are 2007 TL-S owners) who notice the pinging.

Several of us, including myself, have reported the pinging issue to the highest levels. Most of us feel the issue is most likely due to bad machining in some of VTEC 3.5L engines which were allocated for the 07 TL-S.

The fact that I spent $40K on a car which pings on 91 octane Chevron gas is simply unacceptable. The main reason I still come in to Santa Monica Acura for maintenance is because Robert Munoz is a nice guy and very accommodating. I have instructed him to always note that I still have a pinging problem, so we both have this issue in our maintenance records. If this engine ends up blowing up on me, I have records to show that I warned your company about it numerous times and nothing was done to fix it.

If you have any further advice please let me know.

thanks again for your time,
Joel

ductman

I know I am in the wrong forum but my 2010 mdx is also experiencing the same similiar type of pinging, under wot, it sounds great but sometime under partial throttle at around 3k on the tach , I get the pinging, of course the dealer told me it was " normal " and yes I have tried all the 93 brands out there.

lowchef

alright yal i just bought this 08 type s aspec last week....i immediately noticed some pinging under heavy load. I assumed maybe the dealer filled up with midgrade or something so i burned through two tanks of premium to see if that cleared it up....but im still getting some pinging during acceleration....the dealer said that they could reflash the ecu??....ive research this and other forums for the culprit but theres no definate answer whats causing this....Does anyone have a good answer for this....I just bought this car and im a little pissed right now....Taking it tommorrow back to the dealer.....If it doesnt clear up i may push for the them to put new motor in?

jpgayan

Definitely try the ECU reflash, or possibly the knock sensor. The computer is designed to retard ignition if pinging/knock is detected so either the knock sensor is bad and failed in way so as not to throw a code or the ECU itself isn't functioning properly to respond to the knock sensor. Also, have you filled up from the same gas station for all your tanks? If the station got a bad batch of gas and doesn't sell a lot of premium gas you could have been getting several tanks of bad gas. Good luck.

csmeance

Try running some redline SI-1 Fuel cleaner in the tank along with premium from another station. The TL-S does "ping" slightly and the J series motor is notorious for having valve chatter. Try that and see if it helps. If not, it might be time for a trip to the dealer.

Bearcat94

Although correct in principle it's been shown that the TL/TL-S, in some conditions, cannot retard timing enough to overcome knock/ping. Somewhere in this thread (I think), IHC showed it took 96 octane to eleiminate knocking.





In my experience with this issue, ambient air temp seems to be a critical item. So anything you can do to lower the air temp at the engine/intake should be helpful.

See the reamaider of this thread for additional information/details.

As far as "push for the them to put new motor in", good luck, but expect "it's a normal condition of operation for this automobile" to be the response.

vr6vdub

Well, I've had my TL-S since January and we had our first hot day (86F). Around halfway through my commute, I went to hit the gas and....nothing. The car felt down 100hp. I'm really at a loss for words. I was furious for the remainder of my commute. What the hell good is a car if it can't operate above 80 degrees? I've got a long summer ahead of me.

TLinSeattle

New development with my TL:
Brought it in yesterday with a rough idle, and as I sat in the service drive with my advisor it threw a misfire code for Cyl 4. After swapping the coil off of Cyl 4 it's still misfiring according to the PCM. Dealer wants to compression test... Will keep everyone posted. I suspect they're going to find some damage caused by the incessant pinging I've been complaining about for the past two years. Thank god for warranty.

I hate cars

Don't take this the wrong way but I hope they find damage especially since you're under warranty and have complained about the pinging in the past. It's doubtful they will ever do anything about it (look at all of the trans issues) but it's one more documented case.

TLinSeattle

No, I don't take that the wrong way at all! I too hope they find damage. I'm hoping for an engine replacement. I'd better not get my hopes up too high.

Inaccurate

Is it that time of the year again for you oem people? Below are some related threads.

1) Please HELP !!...Car sluggish or Flies (click here)
2) 109 octane unleaded = 5mpg increase...(click here)
3) Engine Heat-Soaking issue (click here)
4) The TL has so much fail in hot weather (click here)
5) The Ultimate Cooling Mod (click here)
6) Outlaw Engineering Thermoblock Spacer (click here)
7) Throttle body spacer? Pros? Cons? (click here)
8) Insulating your CAI? (click here)
9) TB Coolant Bypass Mod...anyone do this? (click here)

lowchef

ok guys has anyone found the cause of pinging in our rides...i went to the dealer last week and had the dealer tell me to use top tier fuel which i have since day one....i was wondering if a one step colder spark plug would resolve our pinging/knocking issues.??...I went out this morning and was experimenting with the throttle and the car definately pings from vtec all the to redline...which cant be good for the engine...i called the dealer again today to express how dissapointed i am...
i spent alot of money on this car and damn well shouldnt be detonating! Has anyone had luck resolving this? If its something as simple as a retune that would be nice...but im not gonna pay for and drive this car like this much longer(only been three weeks). Anyone had the dealer replace the motor with better results?

joelsaxton

Hi,

I've had my 2007 TL-S since it came out at the end of '06. I've complained to the dealer numerous times about pinging/detonation and I even complained to corporate. No results. No way they replace your engine unless it actually blows. I think their strategy is to basically stonewall the customer on this issue. Maybe you will have more luck than me, but unfortunately, I doubt it. If you can still return the car, do it. As for me I am stuck with mine, but I won't be getting another Acura ever again.

I hate cars

Everything you suggested has been tried in this thread. The only way so far to stop it has been to run higher octane fuel. In my case it requires a mixture of 100 or 109 unleaded to get 96 octane before it stops.

Rabney

I had a what I thought was a valve tap for over a year. After about 4 runs to the Acura dealer they finally found a shaft problem. I don't remember which shaft. They fixed it with some spacers or something under warranty. No noise for 2 years now.

lowchef

interesting...was the valves tapping only under heavy acceleration or during idle? I wish i could get my hands on some higher octane gas but here in va they only got 93..up till like a year ago you could get 94 but they stopped selling for some reason.

I hate cars

I've asked the mods to rename this thread because the title is misleading. Valve chatter needs to be taken out as this has absolutely nothing to do with the valves. Load has nothing to do with valve noise and high octane does not make valves quieter. This is purely pre-ignition knock. If you want to prove it, run a couple gallons of toluene or xylene with under half a tank of fuel and the noise will disappear. 100 octane unleaded is an even better solution.

lowchef

i know that i was trying to see what dude was talking bout...my car has spark knock or pre ignition knock....which i thought was timing issues and also related to low octane fuel...ive had a few turbo hondas long ago which would make the same noise under boost and mostly was easily fixed by some slight retard or advance of the timing..i wish is was that easy with this car..

brz08tls

I come from a turbocharged, DI engine car. I had a Mazdaspeed 3 until 2 weeks ago.

This has been discussed many times before in the forum i still visit and it's kinda what you guys are discussing here. The engine's compression is 9.5:1, which is a little on the high end for a turbo car.

We had real-time scan tools that can read Knock Retard while driving (Dashawk). It's been common knowledge that KR @ Part Throttle is normal and it's what the car is designed to do in order to achieve better gas mileage. My KR would go to 6 sometimes then slowly back down to 0 on the highway and other PT situations. The car is always trying to reach the detonation threshold so it can then retard timing. KR levels that would peak and stay there would be considered real knock. Part throttle knock was mostly considered "false knock" and there was very little report of real knock being heard at these times. Since i tuned my own car, i can tell we didn't even touch the Closed Loop/Part throttle timing tables because the car was ALWAYS trying to advance timing under that situation and it's not necessary any way. If any, we backed down on timing a bit in those areas that we saw "frequent PT knock" but preventing KR was never possible. We had to pay real close attention to OL/WOT timing though.

KR levels higher than 2 under WOT is the usual killer. We had a blown engine thread and 90% of those blown engines had bad cases of tuning using OTS maps that were not made specific to their cars. People were getting bad detonation + overboost under WOT and blowing their engines.

Another killer was high Boost air Temperatures or engine heatsoak. The stock intercooler was pretty bad at cooling the air so engine heatsoak would happen pretty frequently, which in sequence led to the car achieving detonation levels quicker. Upgrades on the cooling dept. helped a lot of people seeing lower KR levels on their scans.

I can honestly say i never really heard pinging on the 50k miles i've owned that car. Perhaps there's a scan tool somewhere that can tell us when the KR sensor kicks in so when you hear the ping, you can pinpoint if it's really knock or not.

I'm not trying to say knock is not the problem a lot of you guys are facing, but has anyone done real test to find out if that's the issue? I'll be honest and say i didn't read the entire thread.

brz08tls

After reading a bit more, looks like there's the scan tool from the dealer but you can't have available with you at all times.

Most of what i said has been discussed before but felt i would give my 2 cents. The only thing i can say more is that readings from the KR sensor is normal and it can usually be more than 2 at part throttle, that's not an indication of a problem. Hearing ping definitely is of course.

I hate cars

It's high for a port injected turbo car, not that high for a DI turbo car.
This is a very poor way of doing things. Knock whether it's pre-ignition or detonation will always decrease mpg and power. It not only counts as a misfire, it's trying to push the piston down the wrong way on the up stroke. I understand what you're saying here, the ECU finds the knock threshold and tries to back the timing down slightly to keep it right there. The problem with that is once the knock starts it takes more timing retard to stop it than if it never occured in the first place. Please dont' take this as an insult to you, I just don't agree with the way some OEMs do this.
All KR is real knock, some is more severe. The ECU can tone down detonation by retarding timing but once that detonation gets out of control and turns into pre-ignition/detonation, no amount of timing retard can get rid of it. Removing your foot from the throttle is about the only way.

I learned long ago that you can't hear knock until it gets pretty severe. All engines vary but in my GN 0-2 degrees of retard was considered acceptable on a <500rwhp build and 0 was acceptable at high power levels. I learned that it's not audible to my ears until it's around 13-16 degrees which is about the time you're running over the crankshaft and picking up the pistons from the street. In an aluminum block/head, you can probably hear it a little sooner. It's awesome that you guys monitor knock, I've been trying to get the turbo guys around here to monitor it for a long time and I think they're finally coming around.
Agreed here. Looks like you guys look for about the same numbers. Just to clarify, the overboost causes the detonation. Boost does not kill engines, only detonation/pre-ignition. It took me several blown engines when I was young to learn the correlation between octane and acceptable boost levels+knock monitoring. I'm not going to lie, I'm guilty of allowing some transitional knock from creating a lean spot during spool.
This is the part that I'm a little confused on, the "real" knock vs "false" knock. I can't say for your car specifically but the ECU usually goes to work retarding the timing with any knock right away. Generally the turbo cars are much more aggressive at pulling timing (more timing pulled in a shorter amount of time and put back in at a lower rate) so that it doesn't get out of control. I've always considered false knock when you have an external component falsely setting off the knock sensor like a bad motor mount that clangs when you hit the throttle or exhaust that hits the frame.
I've confirmed it's real knock via the scanner and the fact that the problems and KR go away with race gas. 11:1 is just too high IMO for a non DI engine on 91 octane. Looking at the TL's stock timing maps, they look similar to my 29psi timing maps on my turbo car which is not a good thing. The problem here is we don't know for sure why they're knocking. Of course, that's just my TL, there might be more than one issue going on.

Did Acura just get greedy with the tune? Is there a machining issue on the assembly line that caused some engines or even indivdual cylinders to have slightly higher compression or hot spots? I've noticed the stock widebands show slightly richer than the dyno wideband but that's pretty normal. I'm at the point of swapping out my 100,000 mile 02s just to see if it makes a difference. I've done all of the normal stuff such as coolant temps, IATs, disabled EGR, made sure EGR is functional and commanded, just about everything that can easily be done.

The fact that some TLs run fine in the heat and some like mine literally can't outrun a Civic on a 105 degree day tells me there is a problem that I should be able to find. All cars slow down on hot days but mine gets so bad that I have to give it 3/4 throttle just to keep up with normal traffic at a red light.

I appreciate your perspective. Don't take this the wrong way but it's good to know that other cars run around with knock retard from the factory. My GF's Murano does the same thing. I believe it's CAFE's push for the ultimate mpg, to eek every last tenth of a mpg from every car despite the long term consequences.

brz08tls

The "false knock" comment i made earlier is definitely a little confusing. There are often guys from Cobb on our forums since they have the AP tuning device for the MS3's and what they usually say is that Knock Retard is just another name for retarding timing. Basically, people get all "scary" because they see knock on the name and think their cars are knocking in a BAD way. From what they say, the reading that you see on the scans labeled "Knock Retard" is not always an indication of real knock but simply the ECU retarding timing after it finds MBT (Minimum Spark advance for best Torque output).

Here's their exact words:

You can see from the last part of the sentence that this might not be happening quick enough on our TL-S if you guys are hearing audible detonation and the logic of the ECU is the same.

The basic understanding is part throttle Knock retard is just the car doing its thing to achieve better mileage and not necessarily any knock from the engine. On the MS3's at least, there's a knock retard max RPM point (5700RPM) since past that point, there's just too much engine noise for the sensor to really be useful and correct in picking up real engine knock.

I agree with you that this is just a dumb idea of trying to achieve gas mileage/power when it's not done correctly.