Xiomaro

iTrader: (5)

Slow. I'm in the middle of moving and setting up a new website for the palm beach Florida area for imports and racing events. Waiting on my new turbo pipes so I can get em coated. Mostly waiting for the ever busy Mr. Rodney, lol.

Needs to get moving thoughcuz I may be for a sponsorship

Xiomaro

iTrader: (5)

aw! i forgot to plug the site, lol.

for anyone in the south florida area, check us out!
the site is still under construction and we will be having our event coverage, photo gallery, and forum up soon. We are having a kick off party next thursday at burger bar on donald ross road to welcome in the formula drift event, so come on out!

http://www.palmbeachimports.net/

much more to come so stay tuned!

libert69

iTrader: (7)

keeping it conservative :wink:



more to come..

Majofo

Holy ish Bert!

spade0698

Nice Libert, I can't wait till mine is completed....

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

well done Bert....but is there is a reason the TQ start dropping from ~4500-4600 rpm and HP drop from ~5500 rpm

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I thought you were done with your build. What else are you waiting on?

BostonSilverTypeS

glad to see some numbers on your car Bert...looks like things are coming along very well

Majofo

Because VTAK

Alternatively, Aliens.

spade0698

I also did the AT to MT swap, new engine internals, etc......Should be done by the time I get home.....

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Vtec engagement has a dip but the power + TQ continues to go up....in this i see the power is constantly coming down after ~5000 rpm....which means he should be shifting at 5000-5500 rpm when running another car for most power....

I bet Bert will have a better answer for this

flexer

Isn't the turbo a 35R? Its going down because its a small turbo on a 3.2L motor. The torque is going to be awesome, but no such thing as a free lunch. If you want more uptop you need to go bigger. I think its just right. Holds good power all the way out. Sucks the dyno operator had it in MPH instead of RPM. :-(

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

The kit came with 6162 precision turbo, which I think Bert is still using.

I hate cars

Usually you'll still shift a little after peak power unless it falls off like a rock. You would want to shift before power falls off too bad, where you're at least even in power in the next gear and you're not going to bog in the next gear.

Nailed it if this is a 35R. I thought they were using something substantially larger but maybe not. I ran a 35R on my car as well. Nearly instant spool but if I remember right it's good for 600-650 crank hp which is pretty close to where Bert is at right now. He's going to have excellent torque and if he turns the boost up he's going to get even more torque and the peak hp will likely shift down in the rev range a little with very little gain in hp. As you said, no free lunch and this is a very good compromise in a street car. I would always error on the small side.

Can anyone clarify what turbo is used on Bert's car? I thought I remembered something like a 61/62 but that might just be a variation on the 35r since I believe it uses a 61mm inducer.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

its a 6262

havent made a FS thread yet but im selling my torque converter that was re-stalled to 3000rpms. Also have a spare stock tq converter as well. pm if interested

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

Libert wanna sell me your car?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^sure...30,000$..looking for a supra anyway

Majofo

I hate cars

That would be badass! That's the one import I would buy to race if I had the money. I ran an 800rwhp one several months ago from LA.

Xiomaro

iTrader: (5)

waitin on my pipes to get back from jet hot. then i'm comin for you bert

libert69

iTrader: (7)

jet hot is sexy..was going to jet hot the headers and mid pipes on my bike but went with ceramic instead.


by the time your car is done ill probably have sold my car and moved on LMAO

libert69

iTrader: (7)

thats a lot of boost. 500ish on the dyno was about 15lbs.

tq steer is so bad. 100mph coasting right into wot will make this car swerve real bad and possibly go sideways if I dont have 2 hands on the wheel. its pretty scary.

ive got the type-s fsb, progress rsb on stiff, and megan coils set to almost full stiff. anything else i can do? will those chassis braces from heeltoe help??

open to options here

bTwix

IHC got me thinking ... Rodney's in the middle of my build and am wondering if hta-gt35r would be a better choice vs. pt6262, esp. with 200 cell 3rd cat and lots of city driving. Looking for a reliable DD with excellent power band and low end torque vs. pushing the limits, breaking tranny, etc.

EVO: http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-eng...vs-pt6262.html

NASIOC: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...1743915&page=2

I hate cars

I would go with the smaller turbo. 500whp on the street is going to be totally traction limited below 100mph. That's part of the reason I've never put the built motor in my car, 600whp and 3,000lbs will not just spin but leave a pair of faint black lines on the freeway at 90mph. A 700whp car won't be any quicker light to light than a 500whp car.

Keep in mind, 500whp is more than a Z06 Vette makes and just a few hp short of a ZR1. You're going to be in the top 1% at 500whp.

A laggy setup can take all of the fun out of a street car and even if it makes more hp it can end up being slower in anything but a top end race.

One thing I want to suggest is removing even a high flow 3rd cat. I learned the hard way that "high flow" is relative when talking converters. A single 200 cell cat will still choke it down and hurt spool. You might be able to live with it but it would be a good idea to try it both ways, chance are you won't want to put it back on. If the converter is there just for the smell, if you have the money, installing dual cats in the dual section of the exhaust (2 cats total, not 4 lol) would be a better option. Not legal but it would flow better and take care of the smell.

Don't worry about how other cars with the same turbo spool. Engine size has a huge influence as do many other factors. I would pay most attention to other TLs with the turbo you want to run. The TL is going to spool the same size turbo quicker than an EVO or STi.

Inaccurate

How about LESS boost

Just joking Bert. Damn, that is a great "problem" to have

Congrats to you..... you "boost" junkie

Please share some kill stories..... I know you got some.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

twix, your building your motor correct? whats the point of building the motor and not giving it the power its built for? you want the added reliability of a built motor for the long haul? with the ms3 ecu and solid tune, your stock motor will handle that 420-450whp all day. the fic was our only option at first... but being able to control closed/open loop, timing, knock etc with the ms3, a stock motor with some boost will go a long way.

understand that daily driving does not mean getting into boost every time you go from a light. theres some days where i wont see any boost but knowing that i have huge power when i want it, is the reason i built the motor.

the 6262 is building boost at 2000rpms. at 4000rpms im at 15psi and im at 9:1 compression. how much lower do you need to go? the power band is very smooth and doesnt necessarily snap your neck back under full throttle but still sucks you back into your seat. we have seen what torque does to these cars when it comes on too fast.

i say, stick with what everyone has been using and what we know works. if your building that motor then go with 10:1 or 10.5:1 and pick up a set of type-s heads. they flow way more cfm then the base heads

libert69

iTrader: (7)

boost is addicting. will not sleep till im spinning 5th gear lol

actually, no kill stories yet during the 1300 miles trip back home i was just cruising.

i tried chasing down a supra tonight but there was too much traffic..grrr

libert69

iTrader: (7)

also, contacted heeltoe about their chassis bracing and Marcus said it wont help with torque steer. He did point me to this product

http://www.heeltoeauto.com/product.p...68&cat=&page=1

I hate cars

At this point, the only thing that's going to help with torque steer is tires.

gerzand

iTrader: (3)

Not trying to be a dick, but how do you know this exactly? I had both heads side by side as I was doing my build and both looked mostly identical, except for a few things. I measured intake ports, exhaust ports, valve diameters, chambers CC's, rocker arms ratio's, rocker arm weight, etc.

The only difference were:

1) TL-S J35A8 heads have 36mm intake valves insteas of 35mm of the J32A3.
2) Chamber size of TL-S heads is larger, thus would provide lower compression if placed on a J32 bottom end with J32A3 oem deck height pistons
3) Rocker arms casts design was lightened by use of less material.
4) Type-s rocker arms are case out of (lighter) aluminum in the J35A8.
5) Type-s cams are hollow for the J35A8 (and slightly more agressive on vtec lobe)
6) Alternator mounting hole is moved by 1/8th of an inch.
7) Price: J35A8 heads are $1000 a piece. J32A3 heads are 600$ a piece.

A 1mm larger intake valve is not going to make the head flow THAT much better, especially if ported...but the lighter valvetrain will free up a tad bit of power.

Let me know. You know im always trying to help out!

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

My 255's are helping to keep the car under control. I agree about the transition into boost needing to be smooth when you get into the 400+ WHP level. Before the electronic boost controller, power would come on so fast you could hear the LSD engaging.

bTwix

Motor is already built: Pistons, rods, bearings. Pretty sure I'm 10:1 to be more boost friendly. I wanted to establish a solid foundation for future high boost while providing additional margin of safety for long haul. Did valve train as additional safety measure. Have to check on head/cam, may have been an oversight on my part but wasn't considering higher RPM shift point, but perhaps I should for highway/track. You're right that tune and knock sensor should cover the bases for reliability. I'm counting on that, but I wanted an extra margin for safety, eliminating the risk of dumping a rod, etc. and having to start over, esp. if I'm dialing in additional boost for special occasions, or keeping it high boost once I've gotten used to it.

I'd welcome a 500whp reliable DD, which is what Rodney is targeting, but am not interested in breaking gears @ 500whp, so am looking for the overall known good system limit for DD, erring on the side of caution.

Rodney's putting in AEM boost controller so I should be able to adjust boost from within the car and run moderate boost for DD, with the ability to turn it up for special occasions. To start, I'm thinking more conservative boost level around 420 while I get used to the turbo. Then increase boost once others have proven reliable DD operation at higher power up to around 500whp. I'm sure Rodney will tune it for max reliable whp, and give me the boost range I can play with.

With Rodney 3000 miles away I wanted the engine extra rock solid, so I didn't have to revisit anything once the car ships back, esp. if/when I decide to increase boost in the future. Agree it's overkill for 420, but wanted everything ready to bump boost in the future as I got comfortable with it.

My driving style is relatively smooth and fast. I'm not one to drop it from 4k at the light. I downshift to maintain power band going into every corner out of habit thanks to SouthernBoy, so don't see maintaining power band a huge issue. That said, low end torque is fun! Perhaps the gear concerns are less of a concern for my DD style and occasional track use.

Great info. My concern is how the 200 cell 3rd cat will affect spool, low end torque, and overall streetability. Will the 3rd cat cause spool 500 rpm later or 2000 rpm later? Massively crush transient response, or minimal hit? I really want to pass emissions without a hassle, no smell, reasonable emissions. My wife would not be happy if she found out I was running completely catless. Just the constraints of my system.

Agree that sticking with what we know works is a good idea. The 6262 is a great turbo. Just trying to wrap my head around the impacts of the 3rd cat and how to mitigate it as much as possible, maximizing the fun part of a DD turbo with 3rd cat in the picture.

Based on your dyno, IHC thought it might be a 35R due to gradual drop off on the high end, so I'm inclined to think the 6262 is perfectly matched to our 3.2. That said I feel like I'm throwing a monkey wrench in with the 3rd cat but don't think I can get rid of it, so am looking to understand my options. IHC suggests 2 cats in parallel on the catback, if I can't go catless. Might work, but would prefer to keep a single 3rd in factory location if possible.

RE: the type-s heads do you mean just the heads or type-s cams also? How would this help my setup? Transient response? Spool time? Open things up to facilitate higher RPM shifts with rev limiter removed and built valve train? Should I target a 8-9K rpm shift point with the built valve train and do type-s heads/cams to develop good power all the way through 8-9K? Engine is already built, so perhaps too late to address this now. Sounds like it would be awesome for highway driving and the track, but maybe a bit high strung for city driving.

Appreciate the help guys. I'm getting excited to have this build done and Rodney's doing some really nice work. Definitely a great guy to work with.

bTwix

Correction: we're using AEM tru-boost gauge and solenoid, but solenoid will be controlled from MS3.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

rodney had the base and type-s head flow tested. my info came from him (and i think p2r). he knows the numbers, not me. you could ask him, if you can get a hold of him lol

gerzand

iTrader: (3)

so did I, lol

I hate cars

That's awesome, having to use the EBC to make it more laggy to keep things under control. Once upon a time, the main purpose of the EBC was to keep the wastegate completely shut right up to just before full boost in order to aid in spool.

I hate cars

It's always good to start with a strong foundation. The built bottom end will give you a little more wiggle room if there's a hiccup in your tuning. You still have to watch for knock retard but if you accidentally get a bad batch of fuel, add a little too much timing or lean it out too much, the chances of the bottom end surviving are much greater especially with the TL's glass pistons and toothpick rods. Plus, if the need for speed really bites, you're jut a turbo and injectors away from making a lot more power.

Compression ratio is highly debated but it's another area I prefer to error on the safe side. 10.5:1 is still high for a boosted engine. New cars get away with it because they're direct injected. I would be much more comfortable with a 9:1 engine on pump gas. The power is going to be there either way but the lower compression will lower the octane requirement at a given hp level. You sacrifice off boost performance and spool but you're talking a few percent, hardly anything you will notice. Personally, at 10:1 even with good heads I would be running methanol injection or 100 octane for anything over 10lbs, it's good insurance.

You can always raise the rev limit but the question is why? You will make all the power you could ever need with the turbo. Raising the boost 1psi will have about the same effect as raising the rev limit 1,000rpm.

I like to build a mild engine, stock or mild cam, a solid valvetrain, and free flowing exhaust but nothing that might cause reliability problems later on. Do a mild stock-ish build (from a performance standpoint) and let the turbo do the work for a great well mannered daily driver.

The rpm at which it spools is not hugely effected by exhaust restriction but transient response is. The car will be more responsive to your right foot across the board and full boost will come in quicker without that restriction. You'll just have to try it with and without the converter to know for sure what's acceptable for you. You might find that it's fine with the cat in place but at 500hp it's not likely. Usually the boost starts to build at almost the same point but as it would normally ramp up very quickly, the last few psi might be a little slower. If you have problems with it spooling too early in the rpm range, the converter might help you out. If your state does the sniffer test, it's not likely going to pass with just the 200 cell cat on there and if it does a visual, obviously you're screwed. If they just look under the car for a cat, it's easy enough to gut what you have or run a straight pipe with the stock cat's head shielding welded on to look like a cat.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

lol...what numbers did you come up with?

stickier or wider?

what type of tire? im using 245s but 150 more hp ....10mm is not going to make a difference

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm welding up a 100cel CAT to see if I can cut down on the smell. It'll bolt up to the downpipe just behind my wideband sensor. My state also does a visual inspection of the presence of a cat.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

That is the nice part of high compression, spool in almost instant. I am able to keep it fun and safe on the street while unleashing the monster when space allows. The car is extreamly civilized and easy to drive as a DD, much more quiet that the SC with the same exhaust and a lot of low rpm TQ. The car is easier to drive (except for the 6 puck disc ) than stock because of the extra power everywhere in the rpm band. I think the more gradual transition into boost also allows more timing to be run since the car doesn't just slam into boost and allows the ecu to better manage knock.

I will most likely not go past 450 whp even in a race tune, because I just don't think the transmission will handle it well, but with a slowed boost transition 500 whp will should be very manageable ( traction wise ) as long as you rarely use it and only when space and conditions allow. I just think asking more than double HP/TQ from a transmission made for fuel economy is asking for problem. If you are not hard launching or shifting the tranny and staying somewhat smooth with power application 450 whp seems fine to me.