Colin

That's almost a 'duh' to me. I believe I mentioned this somewhere else, the top mounted intercooler is great for reducing lag, but terrible for packageing. The added torque will mean a heavier tranny, bigger brakes, and on and on..... Deep down as soon as I saw the 6MT on the order sheet, I knew in my heart that the turbo was not going to make the cut.

montebello13

the website states its a AWD DUAL PUMP SYSTEM (for the accord sedan and wagon).

The LEGEND specificially states "SH-4WD"

kryptech

The current TL is actually 72.2" wide so the 2009 TSX will actually be a hair wider.

Colin

What the heck is that? Sound like some kind of sex toy!? Next thing you'll know, they'll be referring to the airbags as inflatable dolls...

dom

From what I've read about Audi's and BMW's system, it will be inserted across the line just like their current system is which means the A4 and 3 series will have it.

The 9-3 is also entry level albeit more $$ than a TSX.

And lets not forget the IS250, C Class, A3 and even S40 all have AWD optional. I think its fair to expect AWD as an option, at minimum.

Colin

Mmmmm but its still an option for all the cars right? For example the A3 2.0 is only FWD. To get quattro you have to move the the 3.2.

It goes back to Acura's philosophy that the TSX and TL should be different cars within the Acura line. (A different issue altogether) In a twisted way, its the same thing. (Assuming the TL comes with AWD in '09) If you want this feature you move to the next model up and in Acura's case this means going to the TL and not a version of the TSX.

TinkySD

The AWD with vectoring systems will be optional across the line.

I know it doesn't fit with Acuras "one size fits all" approach to options. We all understand it's part of what allows acura to offer the cars at such a great value but having that option there would lead to more sales.

Regardless, AWD on the current TSX would just slow it down even more. But coupled with the 2.3t would be a nice system.

I think one of the biggest issues is that just because someone wants more power or AWD it doesn't mean they want a larger car! For me a TL is a larger car than I want to toss around.

dom

FWD TSX = 2.4L & AWD TSX = 2.3T or V6.

Options are Options.


Like Tinky said and CG said a few pages back. We do not want to move up to bigger car. I have 2 kids and the current TSX is fine with 2 car seats and short trips.

I know you don't have to be reminded but...

A3 2.0T
A3 3.2 w/AWD

A4 2.0T
A4 2.0T w/AWD
A4 3.2 w/AWD

BMW 323 (Canada only)
BMW 328
BMW 328 w/AWD
335
335 w/AWD

C230
C300
C300 w/AWD
C350
C350 w/AWD

S40
S40 w/AWD

9-3
9-3 Aero
9-3 Aero w/AWD

IS250
IS250 w/AWD
IS350

G35
G35 w/AWD

CTS 3.6
CTS 3.6 DI
CTS w/AWD

MKZ
MKZ w/AWD

Colin

I agree 1000%. However, when you put on your "Acura goggles" you don't see it that way. IMO this is a core problem that they haven't solved. Acura is a great middle step between a good mass market Japanese car like a Toyota or Honda. They have not solved the problem of how to keep them 'in the fold' when they're ready for something else.

The million dollar question is: Are there enough customers moving up to offset those moving on?

Colin

Acura doesn't like options. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that is the right decision, but it is how it is.

dom

Wait, I forgot the M3, S4, RS4, IS-F, CTS-V and C63 in my above post.

Colin

This brings up a 'chicken and egg' question:

Are TSX sales limited to 40,000 units a year because they lack more options for customers

or

Are TSX sales limited to 40,000 units a year because they are production capacity limited AND thus it does not make financial sense to add more models?

provench

That is precisely what it boils down to ... I have always gotten the message that Acura doesn't have options because they don't WANT to, but is that true? That would lean more towards #2 which is to say the decision to limit choices is to get what you can (do more with less) and just assume you won't be able to provide something for every market out there.

However ....... are they prepared to completely alienate the passionate enthusiast minority? I'd say that's a REALLY bad idea.

provench

Yeah ...... but they have the Type-S ??? HAHA .... oh boy ... that's probably another thread. Let's start with TWO solid options and then we can bust chops about no real M3 / S4 competitor

P.S. 4-door M3 is coming back ..... time to save my nickels

dom

Little bit of both I think.

Colin

See the million dollar question above. Another thought is the condition of the economy and fuel costs. It the economy tanks, and fuel continues to rise (and why wouldn't it?). Could Acura be sitting pretty with it's "sensible luxury" approach?

Think of all the realtors and loan officers that won't be able to re-up their Lexus or MB leases but don't want to give up the amenities they've become accustomed to? Might Acura suddenly be in vogue?

TinkySD

That could well happen, but as mentioned before most of the TSX competitors get better mileage with more power.

dthondatune

Thank you Acura, for making me fall further in love with my 2008 TSX.
To me the interior of the 09 looks very honda civic to me, with a few extra touches of leather, and gadgetry.
The interior of my 08 is simply marvelous. Myself, I've always owned sports cars or SUVs. To someone who has never driven or owned a luxury car, everytime I sit in my TSX I find myself sighing in pleasure at the site of the fabulous interior.

The first gen. TSX has subtle, yet aggresive/sporty lines and exterior styling.
With a set of aftermarket wheels, a lowering kit, and an ground effects... it blows away most anything in it's class.

We'll probably have to wait 2-3 years for a TSX Type-S, if Acura even goes that route. Maybe I'd consider the new look then.

human668

Anyone gets any info about Accord Euro-R in Japan? Will Honda continue it along with the new Accord?

krio

You know, in principle, we don't need any Type-s at all.
LET"s have 2 standard engines, like all the car makers of the world, for EACH Acura model: a base one, and a bigger one. At the same time, like the Lexus. That's practicle. You have a BASE entry model cheaper, economic, + options, and a stronger, turbo or V6 no difference in fact, more expensive and with many standard features...
WE DON"T NEED Type-s, Type-R, R, S, RS, M, AMG, only a little more power, about 250hp, if possible an AWD oriented on the RWD side, a 6 speed dual cluch AT, and a lot of funny.
It's so HARD for Acura-Honda give us such a modest happiness...??

krio

Bob, I think that the front grill was studied more for the TL than for the TSX. The TSX is HOWEVER a sister, or derivation, ispiration, I don't know what, of the european-japanese Honda Accord...
The TL 2009 will be the FIRST ACURA 100% realized in the new design center opened in 2007 in USA (sorry, I don't rememeber where). (I know the MDX and TL were produced even before in USA).
The millions $ that Honda invested in this design center are lost, or are worth for something good?
The first spy photos of the July 2007 of the TL 2009 indicated that the grill was already there.
In this car Acura put all his future, even more than in the TSX. Because of the success TL had and has, and because of the strategical position in the market (BMW3, G35, Audi A4 and so on).

krio

A lot of people in these threads about the RL 2009 and TSX 2009 "thanks" (ironically, but it's even worse) Acura and themselves for having boght 2007 or 2008 models, before the new one, for good price, considering that the new ones are not worthy of attention, or are lousers before even hitting the roads for 20m, or seeing them alive...
It's not funny at all for my part, even if I'm happy with my TL 2005, and new MDX.
If you really think you a got a chance not buying the new TSX or RL 2009, from my point of view it's a QUITE sad an depressing thing for the Acura brand, and I don't see anything to rejoice in...

Klutch Dollaz

I am ashamed baffled, feel tricked and somewhat confused. I can't believe they did this . All these companies moving forward infinit , bmw, lexus etc. They keep the same horsepower and up the torque to 172 wtf No REALLY WTF. How can you compete and all you change is the body styling and some interior enhancements. No more hp or I forgot less hp. They could bump it up to 220 at least. I see them losing the more performance oriented drivers to other companies. They are lagging behind. Acura advance bullsh!t. Change that slogan they don't desevre to use it.

Yes acuras are reliable but there competition is moving ahead.

I love Acura but they have really disappointed on this one. I sitll can't beilieve the article I read. They could still use a 4 cyc and made it more powerful. Also not to step on the toes of the TL. Oh and for those of you thinking they will bring a Type S maybe but that still would be 2 years away . They seems to do these mid cycle of the generation.

Acura you make me wonder whats next. I love Honda/acura but what is this really once the new TL comes around this summer/fall I will have a better view of their plan but right now i don't like it my

oh the article is the from auto mag
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_sh...tsx/index.html

krio

The first one at 100%.

MJB_CHI

Having yet to see the 09 TSX in person, I will withold judgement about its exterior styling. From the interior pics I have seen, I am impressed as I would say that the interior looks great.

If they introduce a Type S with the K23T or engine of similiar output soon after the new model comes out, I think they can redeem themselves. If I recall correctly, when VW designed the fourth generation Jetta (MkIV, or A4 platform) the 2.0L 4 cylinder did not change HP OR TQ ratings, but it was retuned to bring the torque peak down. While the VW 2.0 (NOT to be confused with the 2.0T-FSI) has never been an engine that would make Corvette owners sweat, bringing the torque peak down made a considerable difference in the low speed accelration of the MkIII vs the MkIV cars with the 2.0 engine, despite the MkIV being heavier. Case in point with the TSX, I can understand the dissapointment with the NUMBERS on paper, but I believe it would be wise to reserve judgement until this car is driven. Remember, the "Peak" numbers we throw around are just that. Total performace is about the area under the curve, NOT just the peak numbers.

Case in point, and I do not intend to bash the K24 here. The K24 in the TSX is rated at 205HP, 164TQ, while the Audi 2.0T-FSI is rated 5 HP lower at 200HP, but the torque rating is a chunky 207 from 1800 - 5000RPM. When this engine drives an Audi A4 Quattro, a car which is significantly heavier than the TSX, and saddled with AWD driveline drag, it also outaccelerates the TSX by nearly a full second from 0-60. How can this be, the TSX is lighter, has FWD AND 5 MORE HP!! Look at the area under the curve. The Audi has gobs of torque available from just off idle to 5000RPMs. The K24 has about a 900RPM range (6200 - 7100 RPMs) where it is kicking out serious power. Anyway, my whole point here is that, yes we know that the new TSX will not be knocking any RS4s off the road, depending on how they massaged the K24, it may surprise you with its abilities and you should try to stop judging its performance based on peak nukbers.

krio

The Subaru Impresa 1.5L has the AWD.
Soon even Fiat 500 will get AWD. The Fiat Panda too, with fantastic 100hp, has the AWD system, and it costs 12.000 euro...
It's quite a fashion the AWD in these last years. And I like it.

Colin

That was of course a teaser question. I believe the answer is number two. The evidence is already there. The current TSX has already done this with no options beyond navigation. Obviously if the car is 'right', it can sell the number they are shooting for (TSX original goal was only 20K/year).

Of course it will be argued that "that was then" and in todays marketplace it may not work. I still look at it this way: are there enough potential new customers for the TSX that Acura can 'write off' the current core of buyers?

GeorgeTSX

The Acura Design Center is in Torrance, CA

pics...

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6208645/...nia/index.html

http://corporate.honda.com/press/art...=2006120568550

krio

thank you George.

krio

I don't know. In Europe, even more in the ex Soviet Unions countries (Russia, Ukraine, Baltic Countries. Russia in 2008 will be the 1st car market in Europe, more than Germany) the european Accord/TSX is one of the most appealing car on the category, more than Mazda 6. You have to wait for you car 4-6 months.
But in Europe NOBODY considers the Accord a concurrent of BMW, AUDI or Lexus.
Is compared to Mazda 6, Ford Mondeo, Volswagen Passat, Opel Vectra. Whit best resel value and overall quality, but NOT 100% premium segment...

Simba91102

I won't say: "finally somebody who gets it", but........This thread continues to amuse me (among other things ) in how so many have to continually compare the $26.5K (transaction price) TSX to $35K-$40K cars. And there are evidently many who either don't understand or haven't been around long enough to realize that Honda's "no option" philosophy has been their marketing scheme pretty much since day one. Two to four variations of a model with rising levels of standard equipment is how they serve those that desire "factory options". And they have always held back on offering certain items within a model line to "push" customers into the next step up (no heated seats or climate control available on any Civic to move you into an Accord if you want those items for instance). I will admit that this technique has been muddied somewhat with pretty much everything that was once reserved for the Acura line available in the new Accord, (and a new Civic with heated leather seats) but that's a separate issue. Bottom line is if you guys have to piss and moan about the SUPPOSED shortcomings in the new TSX, at least compare it to something in the same market. Honda has always been a conservative company, and since they evidently have no problem selling every Acura they can build, it should come as no surprise that any replacement model won't stray too far from the previous version. Why should it? To satisfy a minute percentage of wishful thinkers like us? I don't think so.
Oh, and having driven Audi's for a number of years (and recently), I refuse to believe that there's one that can offer up gas mileage comparable to a TSX (I chuckle at the comparison since that's one of the main reasons we moved to the TSX). We regularly average 30+ for a 150 mile daily commute (cruising in the low eighties), and there's just no way any Audi is going to do that. VW has a great car with the Audi (and they actually are pretty good on gas considering), but the mileage thing just can't compare.

Power1Pete

I have a very good feeling that the 2011 TSX Type-S will have the following:

3.0L V6 J Series from 7th Gen Accord or better yet,
3.0L V6 K Series with Direct Injection

250 - 280 hp
210 - 230 lb-ft

Gen 2 SH-AWD (Similar to the 09 RL)

Let's hope Acura get with the program and give us what we want!

LukeaTron

Simba, here here. People are getting all riled up because a few of us are pointing out the constraints of reality and those constraints don't allow for the car they wish the TSX would magically become. If Vegas were running numbers on the stats of the next TSX I'd putting my chips on "not much different".

Power1Pete, go back and read the last few pages. Your very good feeling is very wishful thinking.

Power1Pete

I've read and understood every page of this thread.

Right from Honda's website:

"The power of dreams."

LukeaTron

Haha, alright, you got me there.

psteng19

No proximity "smart key" = no repeat buyer here.
Just about every manufacturer has it these days. Even a lowly Nissan Sentra has it.
Where's all this tech that Acura is touting?

Colin

Obviously everywhere else (except under the hood) I'm more surprised that the back up camera doesn't look like it made the cut.

krio

maybe you should try the Audi A4 2.0TDI, or the A6 3.0 TDI, a very good mileage for sure. But not for USA.
I, personally, don't buy a car because of the good mileage.
And maybe Honda considers that his conservative politic get good results.
But what to do? i don't like it. I don't think they really understand what does it means a good, promgrammed, marketing trend.
I don't like when they say they are aiming at the Mayback.
I don't like when for one year, in 2007, they disappeared from the scene, when they had to present the restyled RL in november 2007, and went till february with the TSX up to the RL in 2 weeks.
I don't understand what they want to get from Acura, they believe in their luxury brand or not.

Colin

Sorry Krio, this post was a little hard for me to follow so I cut it down to the salient parts. I'll offer up my thought on each of yours.

Mileage... on the sales floor I cannot tell you how many people have passed on the RDX because of the expected mileage. You might not care, but many of our customers do.

Conservative.... Honda just posted their highest global results. They are tone of he most profitable companies, if not the best. They have practically no debt (they paid cash for the new plants they just built). Hard to argue with this success.

Marketing plan.... I think they have a plan, but I'm not sure its the right one for the times

Disappearing.... Colliver admitted that they were sorry for 'abandoning' Acura for 2007 and have promised that it won't happen again. There will be new product every 6 months through (something like) 2013. This kind of touches on your marketing thoughts ie: by spreading out introductions over time, they keep interest in the brand and keep us in the spotlight.

However, you cannot have both things you seem to be asking for. Either you spread things out and introduce things slowly OR you pop everything at one time then go for long periods with nothing new. It's one or the other.

Finally, somewhat unrelated to your post, but the whole "tier 1" stuff is marketing. What else are they going to do? Get up in front of everyone with nothing BUT the i-DTEC announcement and say "we're shooting for tier 2 status?"

mikeucla

I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents along with everyone else. It seems the majority of the posters aren't happy with what has been revealed so far about the 2nd gen tsx. i'm one of them.

i've been a fan of honda/acura for most of the 14 years that i've been driving. i am still a big fan of the 1st gen tsx. so many things to like about the car. classy interior, best-in-class smooth-as-butter manual tranny, compact size, agility... my only gripes with the car are the dbw throttle, the gear spacing (1st to 2nd gap is too large, 1-2 shifts at WOT/redline can be jarring), and my desire for just a bit more power.

i was hoping the 2nd gen tsx would fix some of those issues. it's hard to pine for a car with the same engine. i know it's award winning and all, but they've had the engine for some time now. maybe they've squeezed as much out of her as they can. i actually got somewhat more optimistic when i saw that the diesel offers 250lb/ft of torque. that sounds impressive! but according to this website,

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004...ing_accor.html

that doesn't make it much faster than a gasoline engine. maybe the numbers are off. i thought 250lb/ft would be good for 0-60 in 6.5 seconds. oh well, wishful thinking. at least the mileage looks good for the diesel.

i'll probably drive my 1st gen into the ground, until i hit 200k+ miles or so. then i'll probably look at bmw/audi unless acura does something quick.

anyone seen the A5/S5 coupe? i think that's a good looking car!