Red@8

I posted this on another thread "marketing strategy" but it seems it is more related here. I made some changes from that post as well. I think some things have already been touched on but here is my thought.

A lot of people on here are complaining about the changes (or lack there of). I agree. I dont like the new shape (subjective) and I dont like what they have done in terms of the redesign. Most of us on here are more performance oriented and dont really represent the majority of TSX owners I would assume.

First I do like that there will be a diesel available. I think if there is no hybrid available the mpg numbers on the diesel should be a viable option for those specifically looking for fuel economy. I havent read up on it too much just yet, but is it a turbo diesel? If so that might offer some options to play with.

I have to think that Acura redesigned the TSX with its competion in mind. What baffles me is that I cant think of what car this TSX is competing with. I mean The Audi A4, BMW 3 series, and Lexus IS have way more models, body styles, engines to chose from.

If you are barely able to afford the germans/lexus you can afford the TSX as they all have basically the same starting price and the TSX gives you more features. SO for the base model german/lexus buyer the TSX makes a smart choice. But what about for all the people who are in the market for non base IS/3 series/A4, the TSX is left in the dust.

I certainly dont want to see 121 different models like audi and bmw provide but a 2 model lineup similar to Lexus would be nice. I know it is early to write the TSX off just yet as another model (type-S?) may be announced (we hope) but if it is a one model show again I among many others are not happy. We also know that HOnda wont give us any options as a what you see is what you get deal.

Oh yeah for those saying upping the TSX too much will step on the toes of the TL. Well in relaity the TL needs to step up anyway. Right now in its bracket (is350/g37) it is the slowest/most underpowered, least features and still fwd which just isnt cutting it at that level. I know when I purchased my is350 i test drove that and the TL and it just couldnt compete. Sure it was cheaper by a few thousand, (but it also had the least features) but that wasnt my concern. I know the TL is acuras best selling car but I am sure they could steal some sales from lexus and infiniti with a better model. Why not make a good car better!?!?!?

One level up the RL is a joke and we all know it. The redesign doesnt look like its going to help anything. If the TL is a "5 series competitor" please for the love of god dont tell me the RL is going up against the 7 series/LS/s class. It needs to take a BIG step up so I would worry about making the tsx and tl better and forgetting if they step on the RL's toes. I am sure the 5 new RL owners every year wont mind.

The current TSX and TL are perfect in terms of size - its just performance and features that I wanna see change.

/end rant

Civic2TSX

The A5 is the most gorgeous car out there right now, except maybe the R8!!!. If I didn't want to pay $200-300 more per month, I'd def get the A5. I drool whenever I see one.

rb1

Of course, you can get a 2.0T Jetta for 21K now -- pretty serious German car (200 hp, 207 lb-ft @ 1800-5000 RPM). Sure, you have to pay extra to get comparable features to the TSX, but that's major bang for the buck...

LaZyPiGgY

Yeah, those LED day time running lights are so sexy...

On another note about the gas mileage, I didn't think people cared so much for gas mileage when they pay for such an expensive car. I'm not saying I don't care, but those people that want a luxury vehicle and are able to dish out 35k - 55k for a nice luxury vehicle, why are they worried about gas? Seems pretty hypocritical to me, especially when the person is asking for power that will obviously take away gas mileage.

Seems like someone bought a mansion but didn't feel like putting in money to install a door bell ??

btoline

wow, well said. great analogy

Colin

You are correct. These people don't care too much about gas mileage. Sadly these people don't shop for Acuras.

Seriously, I have had customers with a household income of 40,000 per month (MONTH) grumble to me about paying the sales tax on the 359 monthly payment on the TL lease.

Here our premium is pushing 3.60 per gallon, everybody is concerned with fuel economy.

wackura

That's over generalized. A person might rationalize buying a more expensive car on account of the gas being cheaper, or a person might just drive a lot more than average and have to buy more gas than average, or a person might feel good knowing their are being atleast somewhat conservative while still enjoying a fine car.

LaZyPiGgY

Colin and Wackura! You both make sense to me! Money always ends up talking in the end.

Still though, I wouldn't mind a 18-19/25-26 city/highway mpg for more power.

riontegra

iTrader: (2)

That car already exists. It's called the TL.....

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Except the TL is about a size too big and a couple of hundred pounds too heavy. Not everyone wants a bigger car.

bbbuzzy

Some people can afford to drive expensive vehicles and are concerned about gas mileage for other reasons (read: conservation). I'm always amazed at how infrequently this is mentioned. I hope for an increase in diesel options so I can use Biodiesel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel).

riontegra

iTrader: (2)

Not everyone wants a V6 in a small car either. How do you suggest they add a V6 and keep the weight same? Take the IS350 for instance, that car is smaller than the current TSX but yet is only 96lbs lighter than the TL.

If everyone wants a smaller car with a V6, poor gas mileage, & RWD, then why not just get a IS or a G35?

Also, the 09 TSX got a bump in size making it only 3.5" shorter than the TL and now about the same as the G35 (1.2").

2009 TSX
185.8" Length
72.4" width
62.2" Track
106.4" Wheelbase
34??lbs Weight

2008 TSX
183.4" Length
69.4" Width
59.6" Track
105.1" Wheelbase
3345lbs Weight

2008 TL
189.3" Length
75.4" Width
62.1" track
107.9" Wheelbase
3623lbs Weight

2008 IS350
180.1" Length
70.9" Width
60.4" track
107.5" Wheelbase
3527lbs Weight

2008 G35
187" Length
69.8" Width
59.8" track
112.2" Wheelbase
3508lbs Weight

LaZyPiGgY

to that, plus I love the exterior/interior of the TSX much more over the TL, cept the TL-S, but I'm not made of money

LaZyPiGgY

I don't necessarily consider the TL, IS350, and G35 to have bad gas mileage. They are more in the middle. Bad gas mileage is my Landcruiser and Tundra. Either way, all these cars have worse mileage than our TSX's.

Interesting that the IS is such a tiny car. Whenever I see it on the road, it has a much bigger road presence.

elgage44

As a proud owner of a TSX since April 2003 I can say I'm disappointed with the new TSX. I was contemplating replacing my "04 TSX since it'll be five years old when the '09 comes out. But why? The '04 TSX got me excited, I wanted to buy one when I saw it, it seemed just right. But I can't say the same for the '09 -- maybe that'll change when I go see it at the dealer. But honestly, the new TSX looks very similar to me from most angles, the engine is the same HP with slightly less mileage I think, no word on AWD? Can't see myself trading in my current TSX and taking on a new loan just to get the new one that doesn't seem to offer any significant improvement aside from moderately new styling... Disappointed...

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I don't want a V6 in the TSX. I'm much more of a proponent of either a turbocharged 4-cylinder or even adding additional technology, like direct injection, to give the K24 a bit more power and torque (I'm thinking around the 230 bhp range with around 190 lb-ft.) to make it more competitive. People who want the V6 are more than welcome to it. I prefer smaller cars with better balance, though I need 4-doors and a usable trunk. And AWD is more of a bonus than a necessity.

I just expected there to be more than what we got, which seems to be a bigger car with basically the same motor. The bigger car, plus the addition of the ACE body structure most likely means weight is up a couple hundred pounds so the little extra torque that they managed to squeeze out is just not going to be sufficient either.

And a V6 with AWD is going to add more weight still and probably upset the balance of the car even more, making it even more nose heavy than the 4-cylinder version.

Is it too much to ask for someone to make a good, smaller, fun to drive, well-engineered 4-door sedan with upscale materials and solid build quality, reliability with a reasonably powered engine and a $30k price tag? The current TSX fit that description pretty much perfectly. Why they had to go and make it bigger and heavier is beyond me.

mltk53

mg7726

no one has asked honda (at least i haven't heard anyone on AZ) to upsize the car but they did anyway, why? we don't know.

we just asked for a decent base motor (10hp - 20hp) or the turbo, and they go downsize the hp - increase tq to surprise us. why? we don't know either. while i haven't sat in the new car yet, i'll bet weight increase on the FMC will negate the tq gain.

if i wanted a TL back in '04, i would've bought one to begin with.


are you and i the only honda fans preaching to the wrong choir???

krio

[QUOTE=Colin]Sorry Krio, this post was a little hard for me to follow so I cut it down to the salient parts. I'll offer up my thought on each of yours.

Mileage... on the sales floor I cannot tell you how many people have passed on the RDX because of the expected mileage. You might not care, but many of our customers do.

Conservative.... Honda just posted their highest global results. They are tone of he most profitable companies, if not the best. They have practically no debt (they paid cash for the new plants they just built). Hard to argue with this success.

Marketing plan.... I think they have a plan, but I'm not sure its the right one for the times...
QUOTE]


Yes, Colin, you are right. I don't know myself what I wanted to say. Forget.

krio

Autocar UK about the new Accord:

The current Accord sold 8500 units in the UK last year. Honda UK expects the new model to jump to between 12- and 14,000 sales, with prices kicking off at £18,000 and rising to over £23,000 for a diesel Tourer – roughly £1000 over prices for the current model.

Honda says it benchmarked the BMW 3-series to achieve a ‘more involving, communicative drive’.

....the big news for European drivers is the Accord’s new 148bhp i-DTEC diesel, which has a massive torque output of 258lb ft at just 2000rpm. The previous Honda diesel unit was a benchmark for refinement, but Honda says it has made the new i-DTEC engine ‘more powerful, smoother and cleaner’.

It’s so clean it will meet the US’s ultra-stringent ‘EPA Tier II Bin 5’emissions standards without the NoX-reducing urea injection system Mercedes fitted to its US-bound Bluetec diesel engines.

All three engines will be offered with a six-speed manual box. A five-speed auto is also offered on the petrol engines, with a diesel auto arriving in 2009.

Honda sources claim the interior feels a ‘class up’, going so far as to say it rivals the Audi A6 for space and quality. (A6?? Sounds strange! ) Even the front seats are described by Accord engineer Toshiro Morita as ‘no expense spared.’

Audi was the target when the Accord’s body and interior quality was being refined. BMW was the target for the engine development and the sophistication of engineering individual components, with Audi, BMW and Lexus used as reference points for the Accord’s electronics.

no bad...

Colin

I'll play the 'devils advocate' here. It must be, or everyone would make it OR the demand for such a niche car isn't enough to justify the expense. Realistically, no car fits this description exactly, the current TSX comes the closest, but many would argue tha the engine barely meets the "reasonably powered" criteria.

I agree that the car will probably be heavier, but the weight hasn't been announced yet, so we won't know for sure till April.

Lets look at the premise a little closer: We're talking about a car that will sell around 30-40K units a year, relatively low volumes for a single platform car. Now look at the cars that try to fit the criteria

A4: Good power (torque not hp), good interior materials, questionable quality, questionable back seat space, questionable on (comparably equipped) price

IS250: Good interior materials, good quality, questionable power, poor back seat space, poor on (comparably equipped) price

328: Good power, good interior materials, questionable quality, poor on (comparably equipped) price.

It seems to me that nobody can make the exact car you want, so it comes down to what compromise we are willing to make?

Colin

Ah.. you might have hit the nail on the head. The TL for '09 will be bigger and more expensive than the current car. Undoubtedly this will leave some of the 300,000 04-08 TL customers behind.

When the V-6 TSX rumor was first shared with me 2 years ago, the idea was to continue to give our customers a V-6 Acura alternative in the low 30's range. If this was part of the plan, they the up-sizing of the TSX makes sense.

co1063

Victor Nguyen doesn't know how to use a camera

Colin

^^More likely, the camera is autofocusing on the glass and not whats beyond it.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Well, the problem with cars like the IS250 and the A4, which I recently drove is that they are not really drivers' cars, though the new B8 A4 is supposed to be significantly improved in that area. As for the 328, we all know that the the premium is hard to justify.

And given that the Civic's weight increased a noticeable amount when they incorporated the ACE body structure, I suspect that the trend will continue.

And as for compromises, I am willing to make some, but even as I make some compromises, there is still no car that meets my criteria. I still don't think it is too much to ask for, but that isn't my call to make, unfortunately.

Maybe I should see if any of the dealers has a Civic Si sedan still lying around...

Colin

I hear you loud and clear and I suspect you're correct on the weight issue. Hopefully the TSX sized budget will allow for the increased usage of high strength steel which saves weight (but is more money). Still, I'm thinking we'll see at minimum a 100 lbs increase, probably 150.

If the Si was available with HIDs and Leather, I'd probably get one myself! If the Accord Coupe EX-L (4 cylinder) was available with a 6-MT I'd consider that too. Seriously, I need one car in March-April and another in July-August when both of our S2000 leases expire,

The fact that there is no car exactly for us probably means we're 'special' and that our needs do not represent the general public.... a backhanded compliment if there ever was one....

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Well, you're more in the loop about things than I am so if you catch wind of something coming down the pipeline that has potential, I would appreciate a heads-up. My thinking right now is that I will hold off getting a new car until my lease is up, but a part of me wants to change cars just so I can get out of owning a black car. No more dark colored cars until I have a garage and the time to take care of it.

Colin

I don't know about that... say can you get a WRX with HIDs and in leather?

krio

Colin, about the A4, you are referring about the old gen., I think. Here in Europe is already in sell from Jenuary the new one, and is BIG, and good, really: 1,83m wide, 4,70m long, and the wheel base is 2,82 m!!
The interior is simply amazing. The quality and finishing of the cockpit is at the highest level. BMW sucks. I have seen only the new A4 3.0TDI, but it sounds really good... The 3.2 FSI is on sale, but in few months Audi will get the new 300 hp.
For the ergonomic of interiors Audi and Honda/Acura are the best.
You had to look to the Audi R8 4.2L, near to my office, black on black, THAT's really an amazing car.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

No HIDs and leather only on the STI. Bummer...

Colin

Krio, If English is not your first language I apologize for my lack of understanding in your earlier post. I am always humbled when someone posts in English (as a second language) when I speak only one.

As for the A4, yes, I am thinking of the current model. Since I prefer to deal in things I actually know I wouldn't dare speculate on the differences between a TSX I haven't seen and an Audi I haven't seen However, if the car is bigger, we can move the back seat from questionable to good. Comparable price and quality are probably still questionable.

Colin

So Subaru Sti falls into this category: Good power (oh yeah!), good quality, questionable interior materials, good back seat space, poor on (comparably equipped) price, mostly because they cannot be comparable equipped (luxury wise)

riontegra

iTrader: (2)

What about the Legacy 2.5GT Limited? That seems to meet all your requirements... with the exception of HID's.

Colin

The Legacy is close isn't it? You seem to give up a few luxury items like HIDs, memory seats, bluetooth, some rear seat space and trunk space. Fuel economy is questionable, I know many WRX owners routinely fall into the teens and this weighs more.

However, it is almost exactly what many seem to want. A quick look at Subaru of Americas site showed this press release on 2007 sales:

This confused me. Does the Legacy line include the outback? If so then the Legacys only sold 22,349 and this includes all the versions of the car (sedans, wagons and GT).

If my assumptions of these figures are correct then why does the Legacy GT sell in such few numbers? It would seem to offer what so many people want, turbo engine of around 250 hp, AWD, great build quality and excellent safety ratings.

A quick look on acura.com and a comparably equipped Legacy GT is over $4000 more than a TSX so it kind of falls into our summary like this:

Legacy GT Limited: Good power, good quality, questionable interior materials, good back seat space, poor on (comparably equipped) price because despite the $4000 difference you are still missing a number of things as listed above.

krio

My first language is italian, don't worry, I understand my english is awful.
We have to consider that for price range, a 2.4L Accord in Europe (in $) is about 38.000-40.000$. A comparable A4 for optionals and engine, the 2.0T with 200hp,whith leather and options is about 38.000 EURO, it means 52.000$... Audi is even more expensive that BMW and Merc now. For that reason the Accord is so popluar now, for a almost perfect quality/price rate.

There are news about the hybrid technology for Honda on Motor Authority.
Honda is investigating ways of recapturing heat energy lost through a car’s exhaust to help generate electricity and power an electric motor for a new generation of ultra-efficient hybrid cars.

mltk53

you guys talk too much

LukeaTron

My friend has the Legacy GT and I've spent a lot of time in it. When it came time to buy my car it was down to the LGT and TSX. The TSX is a lot more comfortable IMO. The LGT wins hands down in the performance though. It looses badly in the fuel economy category as soon as you start enjoying the benefit of boost. Kept under 3000 rpm (where the turbo catches) the performance is quite limp but the fuel efficiency is on par with the TSX. Back seat room is cramped due to the AWD.

It's not a bad car and if you were to value performance more than luxury and fuel economy it's something any one wanting a faster version of the TSX should take a look at. It does have HIDs by the way.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Not according to the website it doesn't.

LukeaTron

According to me being in the car it does. High and low beams. The high beams are like flipping on the sun. My buddy's is an 05, I can't imagine they'd have taken them back out. Maybe they were an option?

kjamsf

from...
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=737937