darrinb

how many people have gotten their 2nd revised map???

blader

I have a dyno appt for tomorrow morning, then I will send jack my charts and he said based on that he can build me a revised map.

Randys

blader where you goin to get dyno'd???

Louie11

I sent my maps to todd which were posted on this thread a few pages back. I didn't know Jacks email at the time and todd said he would give them to him. I have heard nothing so I better give him a call. I was wondering the same thing, if he could make me a custom map do to the before and after graphs I had sent him.

Jonesi

If I could do a dyno and they could do a custom map to the dyno then I may go that route.. Otherwise I will bypass all that and have a custom tune done.. My problem is I can't drive or dyno with the problems I'm having so I'm kind of SOL til I make a decision whether to have this other mapping done..

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Scott get the updated map from Jack, then test that out. If it seems to be running better and stronger then you're set. If not you can always drive down here and before AAM even makes the 1st pass on the dyno they can add in fuel so that you won't knock or ping, etc.

Jonesi

I guess I will do that in hopes the chip will be driveable/dynoable.. Either way I'll be heading down your way in the next month or so..

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Jonesi

Do you know how late they are open on saturdays ?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Only one guy can do the UniChip tuning and he also happens to be the guy who runs the shop. Their weekend schedule changes depending if they have racing events. It's best to call or email them ahead of time.

blader

Well, back from the dyno run, and what else is new....

Car Lost 2.76 horsepower with the Unichip

Chipped Run: 224.13 HP 190.13 TQ

Best Stock Run: 226.89 HP 190.97 TQ

In some spots on the graph, my stock ECU was almost 5 HP\TQ better than Unichip.

Conditions: 79.39deg, 29.66 in-Hg, Humidity: 63%, STD: 1.03

As far as air\fuel goes, I saw a 14.8 at one point on the unichip run. Stock runs
were high 11s low 12s. At about 6200 RPM I hit 14.0, and from there on it rises to about 14.8 at redline. Ride home with stock ECU felt stronger than the chip had in the last few weeks. Also felt smoother.

Blue = chip run. 224.13 HP 190.13 TQ
Red = stock run #1. 226.89 HP 190.97 TQ
Green = stock run # 2. 226.49 HP 190.47 TQ

First dotted line is 12, second 14, third 16 .. Straight red line through middle is 13. Colors are same as above.

Bigger pics here: http://public.fotki.com/blader/dyno

Anyone wanna host vids?

Jonesi

How big are the video files ?

Are these runs with original chip or version #2 ?

blader

Its just a vid of the car running .. not the computer that logs the runs. Can't remember which runs they were but not like you'd be able to tell a visual difference anyway.

One is from the front of the car and its 7.86 mb the other is from the back of the exhaust and its 4.73mb. Car just sounds mean as hell inside the garage on dyno VTEC sounds amazing

blader

heres a better chart the place finally emailed me

bigger pic here - http://public.fotki.com/blader/dyno/haugdyno.html
(click get orignal uploaded photo for bigger version)

Louie11

Are these runs with original chip or version #2 ?[/QUOTE]


I hope that was the original map because if that was the revised map it looks like they are going in the wrong direction

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Dyno pic is tiny. Can in enlarge it?

blader

For some reason it won't post that big. But click the link below it and go to my Fotki site, then click Get Original Uploaded Photo underneath the pic, its much bigger.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

A/F seems to be above 14 after 6000 rpm. You need an updated map to enrichen the fuel mixture.

blader

It rises above 14 at 6200RPM. Jack told me that this is because the car spins up so fast on the dyno the computer does not have time to correct itself like on the street. He said all the CLs have done that on the dyno but on the street they bump up for a sec then come right back down. He is having a talk with some other people about my chart right now then he is calling me back and letting me know what to do.

He said that he can't really tell much from the 3 runs and he thinks that my two stock runs were influenced by the unichip even though it was taken out. he said my ecu might have "learned" the corrections it was making. he said my stock run torque curves werent like any other CLs, they were almost flat. others are down around 150tq at 4K RPM. He wanted me to do like 10 runs but I told him the shop was 125$ for 3 pulls and I didnt have the money to sit there and do pulls all day long...

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Ouch $125 for 3 pulls is rape! I paid that and got to rent the dyno for an hour with a max of 8 pulls. 3 pulls here costs $75-85.

blader

Thats the standard here in NJ .. another shop wanted about 250.

Ant7701

I'm starting to believe that this issue will NEVER be resolved!!!Everytime someone gets a dyno they have some answer for it on how it can't be. Like the stock ecu learning the uni-chip after it was disconnected, common!! And I spoke to Tony the tuner today on my second map. AND I am gonna ship back both kits that I have and he's gonna send me another one. I asked him if I could have a rebate for $100 and go get the custom tune...he told me that whomever does the custom tune will have to learn how to tune these cars because they react so much to temp. Soooo they will have to teach him how to apply cooling fans and such to re-create real-driving temps to custom tune. So now every time we do mods and want to get custom tuned, we have to go thru this bullshit. I swaer we signed our life away on this uni-chip shit!!!!!Has it been confirmed that they won't take give full rebates. Plus i have to pay outta pocket now for "2" kits to be shipped back to Oregon. FUCK!!!!!!!! OHHHHH I almost forgot. when they were collecting the final payment. Didn't they tell everyone that we owed $508 including shipping or was that w/o shipping. Cause i was charged on my CC $530.

blader

OK .. got off the phone with jack again .. we MAY have this thing figured out.

Just like he told you Ant, the temp of our cars can cause it to run almost a half a point to a full point leaner\richer. What I dont think any of us have taken into account is...... the Mugen mods. I mentioned this to him on the phone just now and its as if he just discovered the cure for cancer. He said this might be the reason so many cars are running so differently. How many of you guys have this mod?

ATTENTION SCALBERT .. I know you are the guy who discovered the mugen parts for the CL, I need your help .. HOW exactly do these make the car respond? Stock cycles between what and what degrees, and with the mugen parts what does it cycle between? I need to pass this info on to Jack.

Jonesi

How many of us have the Mugen mods? What's the point he's getting at ?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Blader... Don't you have the cooling mods?

scalbert

I am sorry but that is a bunch of crap. If they are only modifying things above about 30% throttle input the ECU would never learn anything; it is in open loop and not adjusting the fuel trim values.

Just FYI, the cars go into open loop very quickly. I have seen as soon at 20% throttle input but it varies with engine speed and calculated load. But most of the time it is upwards of about 30% - 40%. I can watch it with my wide band monitor. You can watch the ECU working to keep the A/F ratio at 14.7:1 but once you dip into the throttle a bit more you see it suddenly shift to a lower number (whatever I have programmed the E-Manage for) at about 12.0:1 (or lower depending on boost, etc.).

Point being, it doesn't take much to go into open loop at which point the ECU is not adapting.

scalbert

The stock fan switch and T-Stat keep the engine coolant in the 195 - 205 range. Witht eh Mugen units it stays in the 175 - 185 range. This causes the ECU to run 2 - 3 degrees more ignition timing advance. Unfortunately I never got to see any A/F numbers but I would suspect a difference and potentially running a little leaner. But not a whole to two points higher. More like a couple of tenths at the most as the power came by way of more advance.

darrinb

i dont have the mugen cooling mods yet but i still ran way lean....

seattle dale

well guys, today i made my trip to unichip in hillsboro. Arrived @ 9:00 got out of there about 2:00. Jack & his crew treated me very well, & thier definatley trying to make things right. The technician that was with me was josh. He was very knowledgeable & seemed to know his shit. 1st thing we did was take my car on a little road trip after hooking up my TLS with the computer equipment. The A/F mixture on the road was just a tad high, but on the dyno it was just about perfect. My chip as all of us originally recieved it was doing what it was suppose to do. A week or so ago they tuned a CLS with headers only. My TLS has just Headers & a K&N drop in. He flashed my chip with that very map called the "E" map gave me a little more as you'll see in the dynos. They did like 20 dyno runs for me & got everything they could out of the chip. We also tried the b map & ended up losing hp & torque. It was because i was running the 92 octane, not racing gas. i dont want to make this too long. so i'll cut it a little short for now. When you look @ the dynos the blue is the original map as shipped to all of us. The red is what they called the "E" map, as you can see I got some gains & this is the one i accepted for my car. Sorry the dyno pics are shitty But i could not use the files from my scanner for some reason & had to take pics with my digital. My top BHP was 285, & my torque was 217.5. Not really sure how those numbers stack up, being kind of a noob to this shit. The other pics are of there shop & $65,000 dyno machine built in south africa. Well hopefull my photo album will come through. later. http://www.acurainspired.com/gallery...1337&uuid=1062 ps all dynos were done in 3rd gear,

J.T.'s 3.2CL

Just curious what brand dyno do they use? It seem like your torque numbers are the highest yet?


Edit: I see it is a Dastek? dyno.

blader

Thats what I'm wondering .. Who has the chip and the Mugen mods? The point hes getting at is this whole time CLS's with the same mods have been acting very differently and he cant figure out why. Maybe its because no one thought to mention this mod; I sure as hell didnt mention it. According to what he told me, just a 20-30 deg water temp difference can change the A\F up to a whole point.

yes, I have them. although I never mentioned it to Jack until today; I only thought to mention it after he told me the water temp can make a big change to the A\F.

Jack told me something similiar to what you just said, that our cars go into open loop fairly early. He said the decision to go into open loop is mainly based on manifold pressure and load. I dont get what you mean when you say they are only modifying above 30% throttle .. I'm assuming you mean they are only modifying open loop but our cars do not automatically go into open loop at 30% throttle. From what I've heard from jack, based on what the car is doing in open loop, it can learn how to act in closed loop. In a way this doesnt make sense to me because in closed loop, the way I understand it, the car is dead set on making a 14.7 A\F. So I would think it doesnt really have to learn anything .. because as long as it can keep a 14.7 it will be fine. I think this is what your trying to say .. but I could be wrong.

But your also saying that the ECU cannot adapt in open loop .. so the ECU can never learn how it can make more power in open loop? This doesnt make sense to me .. when you install headers you dont feel nearly as much power right away as you do after driving the car for a while. Doesnt the ECU learn how it can make more power? I apologize if some of my info is innacurate .. I'm still trying to learn and understand everything.

I may have had a typo but I never said it could run two points higher .. Jack said to me that our cars seem to be very sensitive to water temp and that can easily skew dyno results. I for one have the mugen mods, so I would assume my water temp will be a little lower than a CLS dynoing without them. However, the fan they used on my car was very small and inadequate in my opinion for dyno use .. if they had a huge blower I think my water temp would've been even cooler. Unfortunately they did not hook up a scan tool and I dont know what my water temp was. If I had thought about it I probably would've asked him to hookup a scan tool .. as IAT and water temp probably would've been useful data in figuring all this out. Jack said to me our cars can run (in exact words) half a point to ALMOST a point difference in A\F just based on water temp. i am in no way saying your wrong steve I'm just telling you what he said while I was on the phone with him...

Jack is supposed to call me tomorrow morning, he said he was going to sit down today and have a meeting with his tuners about our situation. I'll let you guys know what I hear from him tomorrow.

EDIT: Whoa, sorry for the long post .. I was just typing and typing .. didnt stop and realize

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Blader,

I do NOT have the Mugen mods installed (yet) and your dyno looks very similar to my original dyno: A/F jumps about 2 points, but the power stays the same. I don't see how this could make such a drastic difference.

scalbert

Going into open loop is based solely on calculated load. The load is determined mainly by manifold pressure but also other values such as throttle position, ECT and IAT. This change to open loop is visible with a scan tool or a wide band monitor.

Our ECU engine control system does not adapt during open loop operation. This is visible with a scan tool as is any adaptiveness of the ECU regarding the engine. Our O2 sensors are not configured to give accurate readings much outside of the stoichiometric value. Adapting requires some feedback and we have none during open loop operation.

The aspect of the header or any other modification is mental or is the adpativeness of the transmission changing the shift characteristics. But power changes are not seen. In fact, the fuel trim values are updated rather quickly to the point that several minutes can make a difference. It could be the difference of sitting still in stagnant air or cruising on the highway where the fuel trim adjusts to better values for power. But this is not several days, it is minutes.

One thing to remember, these cars fall under federal mandated OBDII guidelines which stipulate how they have to adjust. There are a variety of interpretations but the basics all remain the same. They all have to use a fuel trim strategy and make these values visible with standard scan tools.

How they (Unichip) are affecting the A/F ratio is by altering the MAP signal. Doing this during closed loop would cause them to fight the ECU which would be pointless. So they would only alter the MAP signal during open loop. But as I mentioned, there is no feedback so the ECU cannot adapt to anything. Once again, this is visible with a scan tool.

This is also something I have quite a bit of experience with. Having tuned my blown car myself I have been down the road of seeing how the car reacts. If the car adapted during WOT I would constantly be changing my program to keep a solid A/F ratio which currently is much richer than stock. But no, I have the car running with fuel trim values staying within a few percent of 0.0 and a WOT A/F ratio at about 11.75:1. I couldn’t have maintained this for the months I have if the ECU adapted during open loop.

As I stated, I don't have A/F to ECT values so I can't fully confirm or refute his statement. But further clarification would be needed. Is it the difference between 210 F and 160 F causes a full point swing (not asking you directly, just discussing) ?? Or is it less than that?? If it is that much I have to say that Honda's ECU is worse than I originally thought as it should control better than that.

Louie11

I also was on the phone with Jack last night for 45min's and he was very concerned about coolant temp. One of the concerns in my situation was if I dynoed at normal operating temps or at stone cold. Which I dynoed at operating temp because I had to drive 30mins in traffic and then I was strapped down immediatly. For both stock and when I finally put the chip in I tried to keep the varibles the same. This way he was able to make a better assessment of my graphs and how to fix. I am sending Jack my chip for him to reflash and then he will be sending it back to me free of charge. Ant you could of gone this route instead of them charging you for whole units multiple times.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

It was suggested that Ant's problem lied within the PnP harness which is why he needed a 2nd kit.

Louie11

That's right I forgot about all the cel's and the other problems. My fault. Well the chip is out and on it's way back now. The initial surge that the chip gave off idle is gone now and now I can feel the header/vtec kick again. I actually miss having the chip. By the way I wonder how many people have different maps. When he asked what map he had to alter he asked for the code on back of the chip. He thought I had an A map, but actually had a B map. Now I'm not talking about the switch being in a or b mode either. I also heard about an E map in this thread too.

seattle dale

somethings rotten in denmark WTF. Why is my dyno so high compared to everyone elses. I mean are dyno machines calibrated. I don't really know that much about dynos. yesterday was my 1st expierience. My bhp was 285 & my torque was 217.5. None of the other dynos i have see come close. Even though i have a TLS we have the same engines. i just don't understand. Josh did tell me yesterday out of the 4 cls/tls dynos mine did post the highest bph. Can anyone clear this up?

blader

They rate at the crank for some reason. Thats why its so high. Minus 23% (I think thats the number) for parasitic loss in the drivetrain and that would be about your wheel horsepower.

Minus 23% your HP is.....

219.45 hp

seattle dale

wonder why josh told me specifically it was hp @ the wheel? huuuuhhh. 219 that not that great is it? wait a minite if you look at my dyno it specificaly say B.P.H. Tak e a look>?

blader

Did he say WHEEL or WHEELS?

He probably said WHEEL, in which case, he means the flyWHEEL aka crank HP

Dude, guys with the supercharger don't make 285 to the wheels with an auto. Its just not possible. 219 is right around where everyone else is though.