scalbert

No, a dyno is good to see what the engine is doing. The strip is good at seeing what the car is doing.

You know very well that a car, making the same power, can get better track times through other methods. These methods, such as traction enhancements or weight reduction, are not visible on the dyno.

darrinb

steve theres lots of variables that come into play @ the track and of all people you should know that, dyno's that are sae corrected should be your best route

blader

The best route for determining what?

So I guess a dyno will show the benefit of a set of torque arms? Or the benefit of very sticky rubber? Or weight reduction? Or aerodynamics?

'sae corrected' dyno's are a good tool, but BY FAR not the "best route" (and I'm not even sure what route your your referring to)

BC

Oh swell, here comes the tough questions. Here is what I saw, three lines:
1. Stock setup.
2. Stock unichip.
3. Optimised unichip.
The three lines pretty much paralleled each other with the custom map line on top with the two bulges at midrange and towards the top starting at about 5,500+ rpms. The midrange bulge was 8 horses max better than stock and the bulge at the top was 12 hp better than stock max. Jack ascertained these numbers by clicking the cursor on the lines on the graph on the monitor. Peak hp was made at 6400 rpm and it was 278. Jack said this was measured at the flywheel.
Ummm....Jack speaks very quickly in great detail with gesturing and evident passion for the subject. After a while I felt that I was stealing time from a person with superior intellect who could best spend his time elsewhere. But he is accessable and indicated I could call him anytime. Which I would have to do if more technical answers are needed. Hopes this helps. Sieze ya. I'll check back here tomorrow after some golf ball abuse.

seattle dale

Ok i'm really confused. For a couple a weeks i've been looking at the original thread not realizing it was closed. I was waiting to see other feed back from others with thier unichip installed. Finally tonight i found this thread seeing all the updated info from you guys. I tried to read & follow this thread but i'm getting dizzy. Latley when driving my TLS i do notice it seems as if i get greater power with the throttle half to 3/4 down. WOT i'm not sure if there is any difference from pre unichip. I'm now concerned after reading all this, like many of you i'm not getting what i paid for. I don't really have the money to get all these dynos & precision tunes you have been speaking of. In a nut shell what is the main concensus what do we need to do. I've had my unichip in for about a month now so i do not know if i have gains or not. Brian do you think it would be possible to set up an appointment with unichip & have them test my car. I'd be willing to take a day off work & drive down there. Mabe with a 3rd car in the mix they might be able to come up with some more info. At this point i do not know what to do. any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

To clear up this 1/2 throttle gains misconception, the UniChip does nothing at anything less than WOT. Only under an open loop can the UniChip affect fuel delivery or timing. So any gains you are feeling at partial throttle are in your head.

Next, I'm sure UniChip would be willing to test your car at their facility, although you would be the 4th, not 3rd car they are testing.

Lastly, currently there is an upadated map for the cars that have been running too lean and throwing CELs. This updated fuel map will be available shortly if you suspect your car is having problems. The fact that the UniChip only adds about 5 PEAK whp and 8-10whp throughout the low and mid-range rpms, you may not actually feel gains from the chip on the "butt dyno". The only way to be 100% sure of the gains from the chip would be to a) get a dyno done, or b) take it to the track and see if you improved over your previous times, that is, if you've been to the track previously.

blader

Actually, thats not 100% true.

In a conversation I had 2 Fridays ago with Jack, he told me just what you said. The unichip only modifies open loop mode, however, he also told me that Acura has our open loop mode kick in VERY early. He said that our car's can be in open loop as early as 40% throttle. So it is very possible to see gains at half throttle. Whats interesting is that at throttles that low, you usually don't make it to VTEC before it shifts. VTEC is where most folks are leaning out .. that is probably why most people see gains at 1\2 to 3\4 throttle .. because they are under VTEC and are not running lean yet, however when they go WOT and rev through VTEC, it leans out, no gains.

darrinb

i just got off the phone w/ jack, sent my chip back today

as far as the story goes with people not feeling gains at WOT and only at partial throttle, w/o the chip our cars seem to "want to fly off the road" when they hit vtec, ecpecially w/ headers, w/ the chip the power is more linear & constant so you dont feel as big of a power change through vtec. jack also stated that there wasnt much gains to be made between 4700-6200 cause that range was just very strong stock....

blader

Why did you send it back? What is he going to do with it?

Seattle Cl-S

My situation sucks! I committed to the UniChip waaaaay back, then decided to S/C instead. I figured I'd have no problem selling this damn thing and I didn't want to back out on my commitment so I payed in full. Now the thing seems to be such a hassle for modest gains. Argh!!!

BTW, if I took my S/C'd car to Unichip, could this thing be mapped out for my application? I might as well use it since I payed for it.

scalbert

Yes and no, there would be no benefit in the current form so it would basically do nothing for you with the blower; there is nothing to alter with it.

Nothing is needed with the SC kit until you start doing some major things like increasing the boost and intercooling. Even then the Unichip would require you to install additional injectors.

EricL

Let's say you have two curves, and there isn't a clear gain at every RPM. If you simply look at the area under the curve, you don't know the whole picture on how the car is going to run. So, from a "relative" perspective, you could end up running slower at the track with a curve that actually showed a net gain in area under the curve.

The actual performance of the car would depend on drag forces, shift points, and other factors.

IOW, you could tell someone that the area under the curve was greater, and go slower at the track. If you had simulation software, it would compute:

1. The effective force at a given RPM at the wheels (remember the dyno is generally done in only one gear, and the drum is NOT simulating the correct weight of the car).
2. The net drag (restraining force) at a given RPM. (actually road speed)

When you subtract #2 from #1 at each point (can interpolate), and then compare the areas, you may very well find that you are actually looking at a net loss in "average acceleration."

As Scalbert mentioned, the dyno has a good look at the engine. If the curve isn't higher everywhere, you need to start thinking about other factors, and the results can be counter intuitive. The aero drag is non-linear, and there are other drag forces that are not necessarily linear.

blader

I apologize for this comment earlier .. I just got off the phone with jack, and what I said is not true.

Our car does not go into open loop at 40%, infact I completely misunderstood what he was saying to me the last time I talked to him. Open loop is determined by the manifold pressure and load. Depending on the load put on the car and the pressure in the manifold, open loop can kick in.

I made a dyno appt for Friday morning at nine. However, the guy is charging a bit much in my opinion so I'm going to try to call around tomorrow and see if I can find a cheaper place .. if not I will go there on friday. Jack said if I'm in fact running lean like the other people are, by looking at my charts he will correct it for me and all will be well ..

Man, talking to jack can make you light headed sometimes. He talks for quite a while and you can tell just by how he talks about it that he REALLY knows his stuff. Feels VERY good to be dealing with someone as helpful and knowledgeable as Jack.

darrinb

give me the new map

juice

I am from Louisiand and was wondering if I was the only one in the Southern states that has the UniChip? Has anyone down here got a dyno yet?

Please post your comments iF you are from down South and have it installed.

seattle dale

hi guys, just want to let you know i e-mailed jack about unichip mabe looking at my car so mabe we could figure out some more answers. Here is the response i got. I think unichip is really trying to work with us.........................
> Dale,
> Thanks for the e-mail. I'll be happy to answer whatever I can, and I
> know there's
> quite a bit of misinformation going around right now in the CL forum. Bottom
> line is that
> we'll make the car right as promised.
> We can certainly make the car richer, but the problem is that of the six
> cars I
> know of that have been to the dyno and have provided me the results, 3 are
> perfect and 3
> indicate a bit lean. I say "indicate" because there are some conditions which
> can make
> the results lean on the dyno even when the car's fine on the street. What we're
> trying to
> figure out is why some of the cars are lean and some are perfect.
> How's this for a deal? You're not too far north of us. If you'll bring
> the car
> down for us to look at it on the dyno, we'll provide a custom map at no cost to
> you. That
> way, you're getting the most the Unichip can deliver and we're able to do some
> additional
> data gathering by looking at another pre-programmed car on the dyno. We can do
> it all in
> a day.
> Let me know.
>
> Cheers,
> Jack
>
> Jack Friedman, General Manager
> Unichip of North America
> www.unichip.us
> Toll free 1.866.643.7400
> Local 1.503.6407465
> Fax 1.503.214.6444
>
>
>
>

INBOX: Email 2 of 64








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seattle dale

And this is what i wrote in response, i'm very happy about this. mabe we might be able to figure something out. later

INBOX: Email 4 of 66



From: dale.ruckman@comcast.net [Add to Address Book] [View Source]
To: <jack@unichip.us>
Subject: Re: Unichip inquiry
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:28:12 +0000


Hi jack, thanks for your reply. I would love to do what you have offered. I'm not sure how your schedules work. But i can schedule a day off work leave early in the morning & be there about the time you open. For me a monday or friday would be best so i could make kind of a 3 day weekend. I cant do it july 30 or august 2ns as i'll be out of town. So please let me know how you can schedule me in. I really appreciate what your doing & mabe we can figure out some more answers for our group members...Talk to you soon & thanks again . Dale E. Ruckman

blader

OK Guys .. dyno appointment Monday morning at 9am. I will run first with the unichip, then I need a stock ECU run to compare it against.

How have you guys been doing this? How much time does the ECU need to learn? Have you been unplugging the battery, disconnecting chip, and running?

I spoke with Jack about it and he told me to watch the fuel trim values and make sure they are low. He also said unplugging the battery isnt necessary because they can clear the values with a scan tool. just wondering everyone elses input\experiences.

mattg

just unplug the chip and run it.

try to do 3 pulls each way.

darrinb

exactly what i did

blader

Darrin

did you disconnect the battery or just unplug the chip and reconnect stock ECU plugs.

LiQiCE

Sweeeeeet man, you've got a TL-S too. Jack was saying that there maybe some slight differences between the TL-S and CL-S, so maybe if there are he can figure them out and fix us TL guys up!

juice

Are you saying to just unplug the chip from the PnP? Or, unplug everything and put it back to stock?

rmarin2

I just spent the last hour catching up on this thread and I've decided to dyno my car. I will supply uni-chip with my results. I plan on dyno'ing with the chip first and then unplugging it and dyno'ing with stock ecu. I don't plan on unplugging the battery as to no wipe the stock ecu memory. Will this yield reliable results??

Thanks

-Rich

seattle dale

are you having problems with your chip Liqice?

darrinb

just teh ecu, not the battery, car ran totally different w/ stock ecu, much smoother

scalbert

What connectors are used with the PnP harness?? I suspect that disconnecting the PnP harness will reset the ECU. However, don't worry about it though. Just let the car run at idle (with accessories off) for about 5 - 10 minutes before running the car to let everything get settled in.

derelict

Here's my dyno from yesterday. 92F, 46% humidity, 29.85hg, SAE 1.02.

Runs 1 and 2 were with the chip. I rolled up to the shop, and about 10 minutes later was my first run. 3 minutes later was my 2nd. Afterwards, disconnected the (-) battery lead, unhooked the chip harness and reconnected the stock ECU, then reattached battery lead. Run3 was about 7 minutes after run2, and run4 about 3 minutes after run3.

Run1


Run2


Run3


Run4


All 4


I can't really figure out how runs 1 and 3 could possibly be so close to the same hp/tq numbers. But you definitely see from the A/F that the chip was working in some capacity for run 1 and 2... and similarly that the stock ECU had reset the A/F in 3 and 4. I was definitely running too lean though w/ the chip because I could hear knocking at high rpms in 2nd and 3rd gear. It's gone now with the car back to the stock ECU.

phipark

Looks like another air-fuel problem. Went from 12.5 to 13.5 and no gains. Did Jack ever answer why the Unichip is greatly effecting the air-fuel ratio? I understand that certain cars run lean and some run rich. But this definitely shows that the Unichip is directly effecting the af ratio.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

That's what it is supposed to do.




Kevin, I'm baffled as to why your car didn't see gains. Your A/F ratio is right where it should be around 13-13.5:1. I'm assuming you dyno'd on Map A correct? Significant timing advancements were not made so that wouldn't lead to knock. I'm gonna have to think about this one....

Email Jack with your dyno graphs.

LiQiCE

Yeah, the car feels a lot slower at WOT than it does at 1/2 or 3/4 ... I don't know, maybe its just me, but thats the way it feels. I haven't gotten a chance to goto the dyno yet so I dont know for sure but if Jack can figure out whats wrong and just give us a re-flash, I wouldn't mind saving myself the $80+ for the dyno.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Kevin,

One more thing. If you heard knock your car is definitely pulling timing to prevent detonation. Something is up. It would be nice to see an OBD-II scan while the dyno was going on to see what the ECU was doing to timing. Give Jack a call or shoot him an email with your graphs; he will make it right.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Alright Kev here's my theory.

Looking at your stock A/F you dip way below 12, around 11.5 actually. On my stock dyno my A/F was at 12.4 up until 5200 rpm where it dips to 11.8 and then rises back up to 12.4 at redline.

Your car obviously runs more rich than mine did while stock. If you had more fuel added back in so that your A/F sat around 12.6-12.8 and dipped down around 12.4-12.6 around 6000 rpm you might pick up power. The UniChip cuts fuel by 50% in VTEC. A little extreme if you ask me, but I guess it worked on other cars. See what happens with an updated chip.

Chopsie

Have you guys found the resolution to the A/F problem that seems to be plaguing the unichip ?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Yes a simple re-flash to add more fuel in to the mixture. Some cars need it, other don't.

seattle dale

mine feels the same way. But Mr. Steve says its in my mind, so i don't know what to think. Mabe monday when i go to unichip we can get some answers. Liqice is your ride a 2003TLS? When they retune my chip to optimun potential, it might be to your advantage to get my same exact settings especially if our mods are the same. What i have are comptech headers & the K&N drop in filter, along with the unichip of coarse. Keep in touch. Later

seattle dale

I dont get it all 4 runs are virtually the same. With or without the chip. What was the original dyno we were looking at when the GB originally began. That dyno showed significant improvements with the chip. I have not seen a dyno close to that yet?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

My dyno is pretty close to it.

LiQiCE

I've got a 2003 TL-S (June 2002 build date) with Comptech Headers, Icebox, Axleback Exhaust ... So the mods aren't exactly the same. I'm hoping that eventually Jack will figure out whats wrong with the chips and give us a "global" reflash that works for everyone, but if we never find a global fix for the problem then maybe I'll just try taking the flash that he gives you.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

The re-flash is being figured out now. It will come out. Most likely it will add 5-10% fuel before VTEC and then 15% in VTEC.